Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports. Additional notes: RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments. While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. This page is not a forum for general discussions unrelated to the reliability of sources. Start a new discussion

RfC: Bloody Elbow

What is the reliability of Bloody Elbow pre-2024?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate Brucemyboy1212 (talk) 19:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Bloody Elbow)

• Option 3 See previous discussions at RSN:[1] [2] Three of the four editors who weighed in, not counting me, considered it a blog that was generally unreliable. One editor pointed out it had been cited more than 500 times, but did not otherwise weigh in. Please note that I have a conflict of interest as a consultant for WhiteHatWiki.com, hired by ONE Championship which has been covered in Bloody Elbow,

While Bloody Elbow currently seems to be a reliable source under the new ownership, (See their editorial policy, prior to this, Bloody Elbow was a small blog. When GRV bought Bloody Elbow in 2024, [3] it laid off the existing staff and deleted most of its archival content, indicating a lack of confidence in the site’s past work.

Most of the citations to Bloody Elbow on Wikipedia no longer work and can’t be rescued. On the Ultimate Fighting Championship page, for example, of the 35 citations to Bloody Elbow, only five links work - three go to the Ghost Archives, one to the Internet Archive, and only one to Bloody Elbow. I tried to find the 29 sources on the Internet Archives and the Ghost Archives and I could not locate them.

When deciding whether a source is reliable WP:USEBYOTHERS says: “How accepted and high-quality reliable sources use a given source provides evidence, positive or negative, for its reliability and reputation.” The media rarely cited to Bloody Elbow over its 16 year history. I found only three reliable sources pre-March 2024 that cite to it, two of which described it as a blog. A story written by a contributor on a site called “Fannation” uses Bloody Elbow as a news source. The two other reliable sources that refer to it as a blog are a small Florida publication and Washington Post sports blog. The Post seems to have used it exclusively to reprint quotes from fighters attributed to the Bloody Elbow blog E.g. [4], [5], [6].

My suggestion is that Bloody Elbow pre-March 2024 be treated as unreliable for statements of fact, but can be used for statements of opinion, if attributed. Regardless, editors are going to need to replace the hundreds of dead links with new citations. Brucemyboy1212 (talk) 19:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

What is the purpose of this RFC? The consensus from previous discussions is that it isn't reliable. That is also the case with previous discussions on SBNation blogs in general. Has there been any disagreement with that assessment? If not this seems a waste of editors time. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I see there was a discussion of SBNation, in which you participated, but there was no consensus. You argued that these blogs were sometimes reliable, and sometimes not,[7] which would be Option 2 if applied to Bloody Elbow. But there is recent precedent for examining the SBNation blogs individually here at RSN. Here is an extensive discussion from July 2023 of team SBNation team blogs, in which you also participated and argued they should not be used for BLP.[8] Brucemyboy1212 (talk) 15:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The issue is still unsettled under WP:RSPCRITERIA. The first discussion had three participants and two agreed that it was unreliable. [9] The most recent one, had three participants, two of whom agreed it was unreliable, but my vote likely shouldn’t count since I am a paid consultant to a company written about by Bloody Elbow. [10]. WP:RSPCRITERIA says that to declare a source unreliable you need significant discussions between at least two qualifying editors about the source's reliability or an uninterrupted RfC. @ActivelyDisinterested: Brucemyboy1212 (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't need to be listed, and starting discussion and RFC just to get it listed on RSP is non-productive. This board is for advice for disupted sources, not a place to fulfil thr requirements setout to get listed at RSP. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3: Generally unreliable, as its just a blog. Slatersteven (talk) 18:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
• Bad RFC As the RFC was only started to get the source listed at RSP. Blogs are covered by WP:BLOG, and strongly oppose listing this at RSP. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Whether it was a blog or news source pre-March 2024 is the issue. It was not self-published - it had different owners and employees. Wikipedia editors frequently misuse it as a news source, in my opinion. It has been cited more than 500 times on Wikipedia, such as on the page for Ultimate Fighting Championship more than 35 times, and on ONE Championship. I think most of these uses are incorrect even though they are widespread. A formal decision on an RfC will help prevent further misuse, and also clarify that this does not affect Bloody Elbow post March-2024. This decision will directly impact how I treat the source when making proposals for edits I am planing. That's all I care about, not whether it gets list at RSP. @ActivelyDisinterested:, would you like a few examples of where it is treated like a news source on Wikipedia so you can see what I mean - to establish that there is widespread misuse on Wikipedia, which makes this RfC meaningful. Brucemyboy1212 (talk) 23:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

How it is used on Wikipedia isn't how reliable sources are judged, many unreliable sources are used extensively on Wikipedia. If it wasn't a blog at some point could you provide details? As far as I could see it was always a SBNation source and they are all blogs.
You should make the edit requests and then see if anyone objects. The first part of WP:CONSENSUS is through editing, if someone objects discuss it with them, if you can't come to agreement with them see WP:Dispute resolution (which may include looking for third party input on a noticeboard like this one). You are circumventing the normal editing process. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it was always a blog, which is why I chose Option 3. Also, RSN is commonly used outside of disputes that went though Dispute Resolution, apparently contrary to your claim. On this page alone, RSN is used to determine the reliability of a source outside the context of a specific edit dispute on WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Is NPR a reliable source?, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability of NewsReports, Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#profootballarchives.com. As to bringing up the 500+ edits, I only investigated the angle of how widespread usage has been on Wikipedia because User: Schazjmd brought it up during the previous Bloody Elbow discussion,[11]. When you participated in Profootballarchives.com, you did not object to User:Fourthords starting the discussion stating it has been used in 1500 articles, nor did you object when the same editor stated that they could find no other discussion about the reliability of the source (therefore no previous dispute about the source, which you say is necessary before coming to RSN). Brucemyboy1212 (talk) 17:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Out, PinkNews, and Pride.com

I am using Out and Pride on "Lacy" to source that some critics considered the song to have potentially sapphic lyrics and PinkNews and Out on "Ballad of a Homeschooled Girl" to source that a lyric about the artist liking gay men received a mixed reaction online. I wanted to ask if any (or all?) of these could situationally pass as high quality sources if the articles were to go to FAC. I'm a bit torn since articles should represent diverse viewpoints but these are not the most reputed websites. All four authors are gay if that helps ([12], [13], [14], [15]), so not sure if that would represent a conflict of interest or help their credibility...--NØ 17:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

those are reliable. also that the writers are gay/queer is clearly not a COI. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I know that PinkNews is green at WP:RSP, though with some caveats. Loki (talk) 19:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Out is a poppier sister publication to The Advocate, which is the American LGBTQ community's publication of record. While some caution might be warranted about due weight given its sometimes tabloidy approach, it's presumptively reliable. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe) 20:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

+1. We even have a Wikipedia article to give us the info we need to vet it. As a longstanding publication, I'd treat it like People, which I'd also expect to meet the high-quality FA bar when used appropriately. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 01:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

MaranoFan, since your question is specifically related to the requirement at WP:WIAFA, 1c, for high-quality reliable sources, your question is above and beyond the general requirement for WP:RS and the remit/domain of this noticeboard. This board will engage many editors who aren't accustomed to generating content at the FA-level; general reliability is different than the high-quality sourcing requirement at FAC, which is partly intended to avoid unencyclopedic, unenduring, newsy content, and partly intended to assure that a full and comprehensive survey of scholarly and high-quality sources has been conducted.

I think the general answer in this case is "no", they would not normally be considered high quality for FA purposes, but as always, it depends on the text being cited and how controversial it is, and how well you have attributed opinions. For example, the caveats at WP:PINKNEWS would disqualify it as high-quality or for citing some kinds of content; again, it depends on what you're citing. If the article goes to FAC with those sources, I would expect them to be flagged on the source review, and it would be up to you to defend at the FAC that the sources are high quality as required at the FA level for citing the content they are used to cite. If those are the only sources expressing a given view, I'd expect that they could be considered UNDUE by some FAC reviewers (Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS, and we don't have to include every opinion). And whether any article meets the FA standards is ultimately up to reviewer consensus; not every reliably-sourced article gets to be an FA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Update: Might be ancilliary to point and PinkNews may still be reliable, but this recording seems to be going around the internet[16]... Might not necessarily be greatest for trans coverage anymore? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 15:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Their supposed refusal to cover trans topics seems like misinformation, their current lead story is "US Supreme Court blocks Title IX protections for trans students in 26 states" in general don't share reddit posts at RSN, if it happens repeatedly your competence will be questioned. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a bit harsh on Blue, as far as I know the recording is genuine, although Im unsure if there is any reporting. (t · c) buidhe 19:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Everything you know is wrong

Well, not everything. But hella things.

I consider Kevin Drum to be pretty reliable -- by which I mean real-world reliable, not Wikireliable. He's left-centrist but not an axe grinder, he vets stories from all across the spectrum.

Here's a recent Drum post:

Here, we have got "Are you tired of me nitpicking the [Wall Street] Journal's news stories? I know I am. But I'm beginning to think it's just the Daily Mail for people who wear suits" (emphasis added). This is in the course of tearing apart a [WSJ new story which is titled "Suddenly, Hourly Workers Aren’t So Hard to Find -- Companies are pulling back on hiring for roles—such as retail workers and airport cleaners—that were once in demand".

But that's not true. They aren't.

Drum demonstrates this with numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Did the WSJ check these numbers? Of course not. That takes time (and the ability to do it), and time is money, and it doesn't fit their business model. Drum says -- and this is more in the area of unprovable assertion, but still very likely true -- "As usual, this is a Rolodex story based almost entirely on anecdotes... I suppose there's no point in asking why. It attracts eyeballs; it panders to their readers' preconceived notions; and most people don't read all that closely anyway. It beats the hell out of real news."

Lest you think he's playing a partisan role, in a pretty proximate story he is on liberalish Vox, who has a story starting out "The hidden reason why your power bill is so high -- The price of electricity is continuing to rise across the United States, and there’s no end in sight."

But that's not true. The price of electricity is not continuing to rise across the United States. Again, Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Drum says "If you want to write a piece about the cost of electricity, fine. But like so many other reporters, the author of this piece is desperate for a hook, and the hook has to be that electricity costs are drowning us. I'm tempted to say he didn't even bother to check first, but it's worse that that: He cherry picked one month of moderately high electricity inflation (4.9% in July) to make his case, which means he did look at the cost of electricity. And then he decided to go ahead anyway."

A while back he showed how the New York Times had a story about how violent crime was rising. But it's not. Violent crime was going down in the span and place being discussed. Murder was up. But assault, rape, armed robbery were down enough to offset that and plenty more. Was the Times just wanting a quick hook, or did they make an honest mistake, or are they just too busy to care. Doesn't matter does it.

All sources are less reliable than we think. Heck, a while back an Esquire editor wrote that while editing an interview article he made up a quote cos it sounded cool. The source complained so he got caught, but he didn't get fired. (He was upbraided tho). (I've got the ref somewhere). Esquire -- big, famous publication. Makes up quotes, or might be. There's a certain amount of class bias here, let's face it -- Esquire? High tone thus reliable.

But Qui bono. Business model.

It's like eyewitness identification in court. Eyewitness identification has long been known or strongly suspected to be really unreliable, and its been proved by studies. But prosecutors have to have something to show the jury. Same for us. We have to use something to ref our material. But let's not pretend that most refs (including most books) are really all that reliable.

I'm not expecting to change anything here. Just pointing this out. Have a nice day. Herostratus (talk) 01:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:FORUM… i dont understand the exact point of this and the wordy length makes it hard to read Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

No source is reliable in an absolute sense, some might be considered 'generally reliable' but editors still need to use their own good judgement and consider the relevant policies and guidelines in using them. If they want advice from other editors they can look for it, otherwise per the header While the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not policy. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 02:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Ditto. Ramos1990 (talk) 01:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Just to pick up on We have to use something to ref our material. From WP:V verifiability means people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Editors might disagree on whether a particular source is reliable or not, but editors are expected to use reliable sources not just any old thing as long as it backs up the content. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

• What matters isn't "did someone with a blog say this source got something wrong?", or even "does this source sometimes get things wrong?" We determine reliability based on a source's overall reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. No source is expected to be perfect all the time; Wikipedia's goal, as an encyclopedia, is to determine which have the best reputation among similarly high-quality sources, and roughly reflect what they say, not to divine the immaculate truth via supernatural revelation (or, in this case, someone's blog.) We're not trying to be perfect, we're trying to reflect the generally-accepted truth according to the highest-quality sources available. --Aquillion (talk) 18:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
• Kevin Drum is a good example of the old adage that its easier to critiscize than to do... His own work has never been of the quality he seems to expect of others. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:14, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Too many editors place excessive weight on news to write articles, disregarding the structural incentive of all news organizations (regardless of political leaning) to favor content cheap to report and gets clicks /subscriptions, often by stoking readers'outrage or fears. (t · c) buidhe 19:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Inside the Games/insidethegames.biz

Inside the Games heavily focuses on sport and international sporting events such as the Olympic Games, and has been questioned for its reliability with some discussions being made but not having any substantial comments or enough consensus. [17] [18] Its reliability has been questioned due to its acquisition in 1 November 2023, where its new owners which have been claimed to have been linked with Umar Kremlev and pro-Putin sports officials. [19] [20] User:Minoa's been one of the first users to bring this up and I hope that this'll get some more attention. Almost 7,000 pages use it as a source, as well as some featured content such as the 1924 Summer Olympics medal table and the 2008 Summer Olympics medal table. What is the reliability of Inside the Games.biz pre- and post-acquisition?

The reliability of Inside the Games is:

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3: Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

Arconning (talk) 10:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I observed during the last RFC attempt that the ownership change made the website becoming more soft towards Umar Kremlev and more critical of the IOC (according to https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1144966/umar-kremlev-has-won-economic-prices and https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1147926/world-boxing-announces-five-new-members, which has a huge promo for the International Boxing Association). --Minoa (talk) 21:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I am also aware of the IBA's behaviour towards Imane Khelif: I believe that the new owner's ties with the IBA, and the creeping influence of the IBA counts against Inside the Games severely (this is becoming like what happened to Lenta.ru in 2014): to quote TarnishedPath from here: "The IBA is discredited". As such, I am looking at Option 1/2 for articles before November 2023, and Option 3/4 afterwards. --Minoa (talk) 05:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I was able to find some WP:USEBYOTHERS in peer-reviewed literature, albeit all from before the November 2023 acquisition ([21], [22], which are indications in its favor. However, the publication also maintains "official media partnerships" with various sports organizations and republishes PR--it is unclear whether these relationships would represent independence issues beyond the PR pieces. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 or lower The reliability was always unclear, its a whole spectrum from really solid journalism to full PR and opinion pieces... The problem is that the platform itself does a really bad job of categorizing that spectrum leaving it largely up to the reader to do (and most pieces fall somewhere in between traditional categories). Not sure that ownership is as much of a problem as their unclear business practices, which predate the current ownership. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 1 I have met the people who write for it at the Paralympics, and regard their journalism as high quality. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

But have you met all the people who write for it? Nobody is questioning that they publish high quality journalism, the questions are over what else they publish alongside it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I cannot support Option 1 for Inside the Games articles and editorials published since 1 November 2023, partly because of an increase in articles that mirror the opinions and stances of the Kremlev and the IBA (including the Imane Khelif controversy that the IBA caused the year previous), and partly because of the murky ownership (according to Radio France Internationale). The owners of both Vox Europe Investment Holding and ITG Media DMCC are unclear, but RFI noted that the former was a "Russian-run fund".

Overall, I know something is suspicious at Inside the Games since the departure of veteran British sports journalist Duncan Mackay. The current situation does not mean that content published until 31 October 2023 has to be level 2 or below, although Internet Archive snapshots could be useful in case older content gets wiped out for whatever reason. --Minoa (talk) 01:26, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd say content published before that date would generally be Option 1 but after the acquisition might differ based on the article. Arconning (talk) 06:33, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 (pinged above). Given In The Games has published articles pushing the position of the discredited IBA, made medical diagnosis of individuals without any reliable evidence and has been connected to a Russian oligarch who has been described as having deep ties to Russian organised crime and heroin trafficking I can't see how this source could be considered anything but generally unreliable. TarnishedPath^talk 06:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. A source being owned by someone you don’t like is not an indicator of unreliability. Neither is being claimed to be linked to someone you don’t like. Neither is a pro-IBA or anti-IOC bias. Neither is being connected to someone who has been described as having deep ties to… etc. etc. That one is three degrees of separation! Maybe Kevin Bacon is involved too somehow. General reliability is about things like editorial standards, publishing corrections, fact checking, systematic publication of incorrect information, and use by others. Arguments for downgrading need to address reliability directly. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 15:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  I do not question that Inside the Games is either generally reliable or reliable with additional considerations prior to 1 November 2023: the question is how the change in owners has affected the reliability of the articles published thereafter. It could be possible that additional considerations could also apply there: the question is how can we prove that post-November 2023 articles are generally reliable or reliable with additional considerations, given the suspected Russian influence on Vox Europe Investment Holding (according to RFI). This is not solely about whether we like the IBA or not, but their actions and influence on the editorial policy of Inside the Games. --Minoa (talk) 16:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  A good first step would be moving from suspected influence to concrete evidence. Many media outlets have shady characters in their network of associations. Meanwhile, downgrading a source is a weighty decision that we should do based on facts and evidence, not on conspiracy theories. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:33, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Imbd

Is Imbd a reliable source? Ned1a Wanna talk? 00:13, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you have the abbreviation wrong, Nedia020415? Please read WP:IMDB. Cullen328 (talk) 00:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok thank you Ned1a Wanna talk? 00:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

What about Ibid? It seems to get cited in a lot of scholarly work, so it's good, right? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s IMDb not Ibid. and read Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources Ned1a Wanna talk? 00:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Specifically see WP:IMDb and Wikipedia:Citing IMDb. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 02:55, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I am pretty sure Nat Gertler was just joking. Ca ^{talk to me!} 01:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Social Media as sources

Okay from my understanding, the only times social media aren't reliable sources is if they're not written by the subject themselves. I put in a subject's DOB using a post from her actual Twitter account, but it got reverted saying Twitter wasn't a reliable source.[23]

Here's the post that was linked.[24] And here's another post with her mentioning her birthday in 2012[25]

This is confusing me now. Especially considering there are many other articles that use the subject's Twitter account as a source for their birthday or age and they've never been reverted. Kcj5062 (talk) 04:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

yeah ur right… falls under WP:SPS, unless if its truly contentious material or its self promoting its fine to use social media as long as its only about the poster Bluethricecreamman (talk) 04:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

That's exactly what I did. Just simply used the account for birthday info. But like I said, it got reverted and it's actually the subject's social media. And I don't wanna revert it back as not only do I not want to get into an edit war, but the person who reverted it is an admin. Kcj5062 (talk) 05:07, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

So looking at the edit, with only the first tweet cited, I can see why there is some confusion since it doesn't explicitly say the date and we are left to infer based on timezones if the date being referenced is the 15th, 16th, or 17th of January. (Not to mention, it is better to have a direct confirmation in text: such as this tweet where Carrie said "The 16th" in reply to a question about her birthday.) --Super Goku V (talk) 06:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Super Goku V

That makes sense. Thank you. Kcj5062 (talk) 06:56, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kcj5062 Your tweet does not clearly state a full DOB. She probably meant that was her birthday, but there is no year. I agree with the removal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång

The year was already sourced via a newspaper article from August 2003 which mentioned her age at the time. Kcj5062 (talk) 06:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

That's the source that gives "born 1975 or 1976". IMO "date + born 1975 or 1976" would be weird writing, but that can be discussed on the talkpage. DOB:s aren't gold to be mined. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Does CALC come into play or is it a problem due to two separate sources? --Super Goku V (talk) 06:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I see from the tweet + [26] that it's possible to argue "she was 27 in 2003 when she had had her birthday." You can argue either CALC or that a full WP:DOB should not be this hard to pinpoint. There is also a note from 2016 on the talkpage [27][28] that she has asked her DOB to be excluded from the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:24, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

If the source requires this much math, assumptions, and interpretation to decipher a birthday; then a better source that clearly states birthday would be better. Ramos1990 (talk) 07:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, then DOB should apply. I have made an edit. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

On the topic of it being contentious material, I saw one recently where the article mentioned support being tweeted for victims of someone who allegedly committed sexual harassment, sharing their own experiences of it happening to them by the accused. The sources used were tweets by the person in question rather than a reliable secondary source.

Would these be considered unreliable as it's contentious? DarkeruTomoe (talk) 13:19, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

If our only source were the tweets this would definitely be a problem. However that isn't the case. If you read the whole paragraph, the subject was later sued along with the other people we name, by the person they accused. This lawsuit was dismissed. The lawsuit is sourced to what I guess is a reliable secondary source (I don't know much about sources in this area), and if you check out the sources sure enough they do mention Twitter and accusations of sexual harassment. The wording could use some polishing and/or sourcing could be improved but IMO it's not quite as extreme as it may seem. I'd add that Vic Mignogna#Allegations of sexual harassment and legal issues which could be used to improve the article you linked to. Nil Einne (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

This may well be an Undue issue, but no unless a source say X we should not say X. Slatersteven (talk) 14:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Genius

Is Genius considered a reliable source?

• https://genius.com/Simone-simons-weight-of-my-world-lyrics

This is the source used on an article, and I was wondering if it is reliable or not. HorrorLover555 (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:GENIUS, mostly no unless it's verified commentary from musicians which falls under WP:SELFPUB. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 20:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

geeksandgamers.com for potential deprecation

Looking at the references to this website across Wikipedia article, talk, and other pages, it appears that it's commonly used to push pro-Gamergate, Comicsgate (1, 2) or adjacent positions (1), with a number of the talk pages describing it as an unreliable source (1, 2).

Searching for Alex Gherzo, a name that appeared in this recent edit, the very first DuckDuckGo result is a Medium blog post describing the person as the website's editor-in-chief and pointing at their alleged far-right interests, which is consistent with the aforementioned positions.

Could the source be assessed for deprecation or any other action to reduce or eliminate the need for editors to repeatedly undo edits or talk about its unreliability if it is found to be generally unreliable? Daisy Blue (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Having dumb opinions doesn't make a site unreliable, see WP:RSBIAS. However the site doesn't have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and mostly appear to publish opinions[29] by unknown or uncredited authors. Neither can I find any other reliable source using it as reference, I couldn't find any independent reliable source discussing the site at all.

Deprecation likely isn't needed, just noting that it's unreliable should be enough. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:36, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I would say just marking it as unreliable is enough. From my time in the video game space, I have never seen anyone ever try to reference G+G, be it newbies or regulars. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 12:46, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Much like ActivelyDisinterested said, "having dumb opinions doesn't make a site unreliable". I do think that it has been an issue with pages for contentious topics along the lines of Sweet Baby Inc that people are saying sources are unreliable only based on disagreeing with their social views.

That said, many pages run by people who do hold these positions are unreliable and I'd include this one among them. Use by Others seems mostly limited to unreliable sources like Slash Dot. Daily Dot links it (which is apparently reliable) but this is the only exception that I can find.

There's no editorial policy. They don't have a staff page. Their staff (those who do use their own names) doesn't seem particularly notable. Some of their content is based on tweets people made rather than more reputable sources or investigations (this Alex Gherzo really likes quoting Grummz it seems). DarkeruTomoe (talk) 14:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the others here. My expectation for any website that devotes most of its time and energy on culture war nonsense is quite low and unlikely to be reliable. I don't think we're missing much by marking as unreliable and moving on. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes! magazine

An article by Arun Gupta in Yes! (U.S. magazine) is being used for potentially sensitive claims (that a witness to an alleged rape is being dishonest) in the article Screams Without Words. One editor has question the reliability of the source. Please see the talk page there (section titled Yes! magazine) and provide informed comment. The site appears to be used in 232 WP articles; at a brief glance the don't generally seem controversial. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:44, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Arun Gupta appears to be a well respected journalist and Yes! appears to be a well regarded magazine. I do note that they say at the top of the specific article[30] that this isn't what they usually publish, attribute if necessary. If or how it should be used are a BLP/NPOV issue best discussed at the articles talk page or the BLPN thread (BLP policy has source requirements beyond straight reliability). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I would say that they are usually somewhat decent, but it doesn’t seem the only instance of questionable I/P content, with recent precedent like this for removal. Therefore, and based on the additional qualification in front of the article as well as BLP policy, I would say that Yes! in general and this in particular is less than reliable for the I/P conflict, going beyond bias into unreliability. FortunateSons (talk) 14:06, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Femiwiki.com

This Korean wiki website is cited as a source on 4B movement about where and when the movement started. I removed the citation and the related paragraph (Special:Diff/1241850708) because the website consists of user-generated contents per WP:UGC, among other issues (the least of which is that the citation is also credited to the wrong website, strangely enough). It was reverted by 208.82.97.132 with edit summary saying "Revert vandalism" (Special:Diff/1242037000). Shortly after, another IP user 99.159.19.180 came to my talk page and said my edit is vandalism, claiming that "[my] edit was not made in good faith and is therefore an instance of WP:VANDAL" (Special:Diff/1242049728).

Reviewing the source, I still think this Femiwiki is unreliable and anyone who can read Korean should see this immediately. 99.159.19.180 listed three points on my talk page about why they think Femiwiki is reliable (Special:Diff/1242049728), but they are all erroneous in my opinion:

• The editor claims Femiwiki is not an open wiki. Femiwiki uses MediaWiki and its sign up page imposes no particular user verification process; by all definition, this is an open wiki with user-generated contents.
• The editor claims this is a primary source because Femiwiki was made by the creators of 4B and allowed by WP:PRIMARY. There're multiple issues with this, but the biggest one is that the Femiwiki's '4B' page itself never mentions it's written by the creators of 4B, and it's very unlikely this is a primary source. 99.159.19.180 linked an academic journal on my talk page to prove their point, but even this never mentions Femiwiki as the creator and claims the 4B movement started around 2019, instead of 2017-2018 like the current version of 4B movement article.
• The editor claims they only copied and pasted directly from the source. Related to above, the current version of the article says "The term 4B emerged from Korean feminist circles on Twitter around 2017-2018." (Special:Diff/1242037000) This is an information that does not exist in the Femiwiki page and is likely a personal addition that should be removed per WP:NOR.

I consider this an open-and-shut case, but given that my efforts are already considered a vandalism by the other editors, I decided to bring this here to ensure this issue gets better visibility and is inspected properly.

I also recommend looking up Talk:4B movement where the aformentioned two IP addresses had similiar arguments in the past. Emiya Mulzomdao (talk) 03:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I've removed it again. I can't see any reason that it shouldn't be treated as WP:UGC. Also the primary argument isn't valid, the wiki isn't reliable for the claim that it created the term and the argument of it being primary relies on accepting the fact that it did. The IP editor needs to find an independent secondary source stating who created the term. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/about

Is the report https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/s/Genocide-in-Gaza-Final-version-051524.pdf (pages 24-25) reliable for the following (or any) statements at Gaza genocide? Talk page discussion

"Neither the Genocide Convention nor ICJ jurisprudence requires a minimum number of victims to establish genocide, but rather that genocide is established when qualified acts are committed against either a "reasonably significant number" or "a significant section of the group, such as its leadership". In the Gambia v Myanmar Rohingya genocide case, France and the United Kingdom (among others) affirmed that the "number of victims killed" is not a "focus" of the assessment, given that "circumstances may be such that the perpetrator cannot, or decides not to, avail itself of the fastest or most direct means" of destruction." Selfstudier (talk) 09:11, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to RSN. There was also extensive discussion at this talk page RfC, not yet closed. SPECIFICO talk 13:14, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• I would say not reliable for anything on Wikipedia. Despite the grandiose name, Human Rights Network, appears to be a largely unknown and recent organisation. I think the text Selfstudier proposes about Gaza is good and hopefully it can be sourced through other sources, so my concern is with Human Rights Network generally. It might grow to become a welllknown and established organisation for human rights, but that is not yet the case. Jeppiz (talk) 09:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  the text Selfstudier proposes Just to be clear, I am not proposing any text, the above text was added to the article by another editor on 6 August. Selfstudier (talk) 11:12, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  A 2019 report by the University Network for Human Rights on Yemen was covered by The Washington Post, Newsweek, The Independent and others. It was discussed in the UK Parliament. So they are a little better known than might appear from what you say.

  The Gaza report seems to have attracted less prominent attention, however. Third-party coverage includes the Boston Globe, Democracy Now, Middle East Monitor, and CAIR. Mondoweiss has an article by one of the study authors, Thomas Becker, who has taught at Harvard and Columbia. An academic reference is "Refusing Epistemic Violence: Guernica-Gaza and the ‘German Context’" in Afterall: A Journal of Art, Context and Enquiry. Andreas JN466 15:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• The University Network for Human Rights is an undergraduate collaboration, it has been cited by others in reliable works and would likely be reliable for most cases. But in this specific case I would personally be looking for something better to support genocide allegations in the most serious issue of the moment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  Although an undergraduate (and graduate) collaboration, it is also supervised (by experts) "University Network supervisors train undergraduate and graduate students in human rights fact-finding, documentation, and advocacy that centers communities directly affected by rights abuse." Selfstudier (talk) 11:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yes I saw that before writing my opinion, I should have been clearer. "is an undergraduate and graduate supervised training collaboration" instead of "is an undergraduate collaboration". -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  My feeling too, not least because there are better alternatives and strong reliance on this source might make the article impugnable and assailable. Note report on press coverage in the current Signpost issue. Andreas JN466 16:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

In order to avoid potential blowback for the article, I have removed the three direct cites to UNHR and replaced with other cites where applicable. The matter can be considered closed for now. Thanks. Selfstudier (talk) 17:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

https://www.apollo.io/

Was made aware of this site being used in the WP:DISCORD; searching it and looking through their website, it appears to be a sales and marketing tool. It doesn't appear to have much encyclopedic use, mostly just asking here first to gauge opinions of it and its potential use before potentially taking it to the spam blacklist.

The site comes up in citations mostly on declined drafts, and for the articles it does appear in, the references don't stay for very long before getting removed as spam. I can see it maybe being useful as a limited primary source on an article about the company itself, but the use it has outside of that is limited. All it really lists for companies is a basic description, and then some fluff about their stats like employee retention and their directories.

A list of all its additions can be found here. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 11:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

AlHaTorah dot org

The site AlHaTorah.org, which is used as a reference in numerous articles, now hides its content behind a "Prayer For Our Soldiers". I believe that window can easily be clicked away, but I also believe Wikipedia readers should not be presented with religious/nationalist spam when they thought they were just going to get information. I hope the links can be replaced with links to a site that does not spam its readers, or some other suitable solution. TooManyFingers (talk) 06:46, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

This does not impact the reliability of a source. FortunateSons (talk) 07:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

It certainly pins their colours to the mast, but it doesn't effect the underlying content. Readers aren't required to agree with the sentiment, which would be problematic, and can just tick a box to make it go away permanently. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. Makes sense. (It doesn't make me like it, but I understand.) TooManyFingers (talk) 16:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:SECONDARY states sourcing can have bias. If there is some absolutely biased statement, then we use WP:ATTRIBUTION. If its a neutral statement of fact, its fine. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The Economist, as an acceptable resource.

I was advised to take it here to seek clarification with regard to the use of The Economist as a source. This is not a discussion about the reliability of The Economist as a source, as the community has already decided on that a number of times, the last time at an RFC: [31] My question rather concerns interpretation of the community consensus. According to WP:RSP, The Economist is considered generally reliable. However during our discussion at WP:NPOVN some editors argued that this Economist article is an opinion piece, because WP:RSP also states that "The Economist publishes exclusively articles in editorial voice with no byline". Referring to this statement some editors consider every Economist article to be an opinion piece, and therefore not suitable for use in Wikipedia. In my opinion, that certainly contradicts the strong community consensus that The Economist is generally reliable, which was reached at the last RFC. I don't see that The Economist article in question is identified as an opinion piece on The Economist website, and blanket dismissal of all Economist articles is in my view against Wikipedia policies and general consensus. Also, in that RFC, I don't see any consensus for the wording about The Economist publishing articles "exclusively" in editorial voice. Checking through history, I see that this wording was introduced by User:SamuelRiv: [32], who presented his rationale here: [33] Previous wording appeared to suggest that The Economist published both regular articles and editorial pieces. The aforementioned edit was made before the RFC, but the RSP text was not updated afterwards to reflect the latest consensus. I have no doubts that this edit was made in good faith, but with due respect to every user's opinion, I tend to think that the RSP wording should be based on a wider community consensus. In particular, the present wording appears to suggest that the Economist is a reliable source, but because it publishes only the opinion pieces, it is not per WP:RSOPINION. That is self-contradictory, and certainly is not what the RFC decided. I tag SamuelRiv and Compassionate727, who closed the last RFC, to discuss possible improvements to RCP wording, and I would appreciate comments from anyone wishing to do so. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 08:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• The Economist, while generally reliable, isn't likely to be the best source for material about trans people.—S Marshall T/C 10:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is not the subject of this thread & query. The consensus at the RFC was that the Economist is reliable, including the aforementioned topic, as well as those related to the Transgender community. To change that, we would need another RFC, which is not necessary considering it was already covered multiple times in detail. My query is regarding the ambiguous wording of the RCP that needs fixing in accordance with the community consensus - to remove such ambiguity. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 12:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Welcome to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, where we discuss the reliability of sources in context. The Economist is the source; trans people is the context. If that isn't the subject of this thread and query, then you've likely posted in the wrong place. What's the outcome you want from this thread?—S Marshall T/C 19:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps it was brought up in not the most suitable Noticeboard. The main reason for my post on this noticeboard is my query, which concerns the ambiguous wording of the RSP entry, as it has become a matter of contestation and ambiguity due to its wording affording divergent interpretations. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  If your only issue is wanting to discuss the wording on the entry at RSP I suggest using WT:RSP, as that's not an issue of reliability.

  Generally just because a source is considered 'generally reliable' doesn't mean that the reliability of specific articles in context can't be questioned, and opinion isn't unreliable - it's opinion and is usually fine with attribution if it's due. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:10, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for the contribution and opinion. I have absolutely no issues with attribution, we can do that when referring to the Economist article in question. Of course I could take it to another board, if that is a more appropriate venue. Indeed, my only issue or query here is the wording of the RCP entry. Question is, how can it be presumed that every Economist article is an opinion piece? As far as I can see, the latest RFC closing statement makes no mention of that. And RCP entries must contain information that is based on community consensus. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 17:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Asserting all Economist articles to be opinion pieces seems an odd take, possibly based on a misunderstanding of what “editorial voice” means. It means the tone and style is that of the collective publication, not that they are publishing editorials. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that was probably the intended meaning of the wording, but "The Economist publishes exclusively articles in editorial voice" part links "editorial voice" to WP:RSOPINION, which implies that all the articles are opinion pieces. Which is why I think better wording is needed to fix the ambiguity. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Possibly that part needs to come out of the RSP summary as the presence or absence of bylines has little bearing on reliability. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

• There's some missing context here. The discussion at NPOVN also brought up (that's to say that I brought up) that the claim seems like it would fall under the requirements of WP:MEDRS. Sean Waltz O'Connell thinks it doesn't and argues it's purely about medical ethics, but Loi in the NPOV thread was of the view that the claim does require MEDRS because it falls under information which (if true) would affect or imply conclusions about biomedical information is typically itself treated like biomedical information. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 19:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think it's MEDRS, exactly. The biomedical information isn't in dispute. What's disputed is whether there was an effort to suppress the biomedical information. But I can't believe a newspaper is the best source for that.—S Marshall T/C 19:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Especially only 1 newspaper. LunaHasArrived (talk) 09:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is a different part of the dispute, concerning not just The Economist, but also the New York Times. The Economist article was initially contested on the grounds that all The Economists publications are opinion pieces based on RSP wording. That is the matter I want to discuss here, to prevent further misunderstanding. Regardless of the outcome of NPOVN discussion, I think the fact that there is such ambiguity warrants a fix to the RSP wording to dispel of any divergent interpretations, and for the sake of any future disagreements. Sean Waltz O'Connell (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• This is where the "within their area of expertise" in GREL comes into play, The Economist is reliable for its areas of expertise (business, finance, trade, economics, international relations, maybe a bit more) but they aren't in general experts in entertainment, social, medical, and scientific areas except as they overlap with the above. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  They are no more or less reliable on economics than they are on science. They have staff science writers who are trained as scientists and science writers, and they have staff international affairs writers and staff econ and finance writers and book writers who are trained similarly. They have high editorial standards, a strong reputation, and strong fact checking, across the board. SamuelRiv (talk) 11:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Their articles all have editorial voice. (Arguably so do those of most newspapers these days, once articles go beyond 400 words or so, but The Economist is very explicit about its voice and position.) Editorial voice in a news article is not the same as being a straight opinion piece, even if we do link to WP:RSOPINION in the description. Nobody in RSP wanted a clarification.

(Fwiw, per this discussion, their stated editorial position makes no prejudicial stance on an issue like transgender politics -- indeed, listening to their podcasts daily for the past 5 years, their stance on the issue actually pretty much flipped after the Cass Review.)

Regarding medical ethics, that's an academic field -- lay reviews are useful, and The Economist can give a lay review of the academic debate (along with the accompanying academic source it cites), or an overview of the political debate surrounding the academic debate, or to some extent the philosophy/discourse debate that's going on among magazine writers (to which The Economist's contribution is questionable without bylines, but is probably still taken quite seriously because of its readership), but it is not the academic debate itself. SamuelRiv (talk) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Are books published by Charles River Editors reliable sources?

I read on Reddit and Amazon they often take text from Wikipedia. Apokrif (talk) 15:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

These themselves are not RS, so can't be used to dismiss a source. BUt, they seem to be self-published, or at least they do not say who wrote the books they publish. So that makes me say, no they are not reliable. Slatersteven (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I once bought a book published by them. There was none of the normal publisher/publishing stuff in there and it was hardly a real book. I think it a place where you can have them make anything that you write into book form. North8000 (talk) 15:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Vanity publisher? Slatersteven (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Charles River Editors is a digital publishing company that creates compelling, educational content. In addition to publishing original titles, we help clients create traditional and media-enhanced books. If your authors are "clients", then yes, vanity press. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:10, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

So most definatly not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 16:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The book I bought wasn't vanity, it was a legit attempt at a tiny book. But I'd say it's basically self-published stuff. North8000 (talk) 21:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Many things published by vanity presses meet the description “legit attempt at a real book”. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Opinion piece in The Sun, used solely as evidence of its author's views

While still in opposition, John Healey wrote an opinion piece for The Sun outlining some of Labour's policy positions on defence and indicating his support for them: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/28262648/labours-triple-lock-keep-britain-safe-john-healey/

Is citing this piece as evidence of Healey's stated views permissible, or does the deprecation of The Sun forbid this?

My own take is that this seems fine as a matter of common sense (the reliability of The Sun's reporting on matters of fact has no direct relevance to this usage, and there's no reason to suspect that they fabricate or modify the substance of opinion pieces by politicians) and also fine as a matter of current guidance - WP:RSOPINION specifically permits this kind of usage. David_Gerard apparently disagrees, though. What do others think? Is there a good reason not to use this source in this way that I am missing? ExplodingCabbage (talk) 17:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I certainly don't think the Sun is less reliable than, say, a random social media post by this person, and, attributed, using a social media post like that seems like a reasonable WP:ABOUTSELF. Raises due weight concerns, though, looking at that diff I'm not entirely convinced this is a reasonable amount of detail to try to hand off of one opinion piece, but I'd think that regardless of where it was published. Rusalkii (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

But is it significant enough to mention if no independent sources have taken note of it? Schazjmd (talk) 21:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I would want to see a better argument than 'no one else has reported on it' if we are not going to include the secretary of state for defence's views on his own party's policy positions on defence, sourced to himself. In his own biography. Its pretty much as far into ABOUTSELF as you can get before we even start discussing if its relevent *given the job he is currently doing*. Likewise the 'dont use depreciated sources' argument is asinine. If we would use it if he wrote an opinion piece in another paper, we can use it from the sun. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

If all that's needed is a primary ABOUTSELF statement then why not us the government statement instead[34], it covers everything apart from specifically mentioning the Dreadnought-class submarines but they are not mentioned in the Sun article either. This seems a better idea than wasting time arguing over using a deprecated source. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

The statement you link isn't by John Healey, but more importantly it is from after he gained power, not before. Sources by or quoting Healey after he became a minister are inherently less reliable as evidence of his personal views than sources from when he was a shadow minister, because ministers do not have freedom of speech to express their own views once in power; instead they are constitutionally obligated to publicly maintain the appearance of supporting all government policy regardless of their personal beliefs. If we want to use a source to indicate to the reader what Healey personally stands for, it either needs to be from before he was in government or be based on a leak of a private conversation in which he was permitted to speak his own views; any official government source is inherently unreliable for this purpose. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 11:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

No it doesn't, we can take that he supports something by his statement while in office. If he says "I support ..." then we can use that to say he supports it, collective responsibility or not. The issue would only be in statements such as "The government / cabinets position is ..." The idea that we couldn't would also mean that any MP's statement while in office couldn't be used, as they are also meant to support the parties policies.

Also no ministers have freedom of speech, in fact their freedom of speech is greater than when not an MP. Statements to parliament are protected by parliamentary privilege, the government could be upset with their statements, force them to resign from their position, or even remove the whip, but it couldn't censor them or force them to speak. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't say that statements from after he became a minister "couldn't be used". I said they are inherently less reliable as evidence of his personal views than statements made while in opposition.

"any MP's statement while in office couldn't be used, as they are also meant to support the parties policies" - huh? MPs rebelling against their own party is completely ordinary and not generally seen as any kind of constitutional violation or breach of duty. Obviously there are personal career incentives not to do this but it's not the same as the duty of collective responsibility borne by ministers.

Also no ministers have freedom of speech, in fact their freedom of speech is greater than when not an MP. Statements to parliament are protected by parliamentary privilege - which means only that they cannot personally be subjected to criminal or civil punishment for their speech while in Parliament. The lack of those enforcement mechanisms doesn't change the fact that they are traditionally considered to have a duty to speak in a particular way, which ministers generally honour; I cannot remember a case in my lifetime of a minister criticising the policies of their own government without resigning first. If you want to quibble over whether this is properly construed as a restriction on "freedom of speech", feel free, but it doesn't really matter to the assessment of what level of candor we can expect from ministers; what matters is that they do in fact honour this obligation, whether they are in some sense "free" to violate it or not. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 13:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

If they are free to violate it then they have freedom of speech. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Besides weight concerns, I'm also not sure everything in that diff is even supported by the cited article. The Wikipedia article says Healey committed specifically to building four new Dreadnought-class nuclear subs, but the article merely says four new nuclear subs and doesn't contain the word "Dreadnought". Given those doubts, I'd like to scrutinise and see if everything in that diff is actually supported by the Sun article in conjunction with other cited sources - but that, like the due weight issue, is orthogonal to whether the sources is usable as evidence of Healey's views in the first place. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 11:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't. As I stated earlier it doesn't mention the Dreadnought or Vanguard submarines specifically, and the statement about the triple lock is With increasing threats and growing Russian aggression, Labour has announced a new "triple lock" commitment for the UK’s nuclear deterrent. So it's not his personal opinion but a statement of Labour policy. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:34, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The sentence you quote comes at the end of this passage:

It is time for change.

Time to restore Britain’s strength and reputation.

It is only Labour that has the plan for stability, to make Britain secure at home and strong abroad.

With increasing threats and growing Russian aggression, Labour has announced a new “triple lock” commitment for the UK’s nuclear deterrent, providing protection for both the UK and NATO allies.

This is clearly an endorsement of the policy presented as Healey's own opinion. Yes, the sentence you quote could, in a completely different context, simply be a neutral "statement of Labour policy" along with an argument for it given by Labour, and not indicate any endorsement by the sentence's author. But in the context it actually appears, interpreting it in that way is absurd. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 13:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

As much of a personal opinion as as any MP stating what their parties policies are, they support the party and so support the policy. The whole statement is "Party slogan", "party slogan", "statement of policy", "statement of policy". You're taking way more from the statement than it actually contains. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

insidethemagic.net

This a fan blog trying to act like a news site. Snopes frequently cited this source as being "click bait".

• [35]
• [36]
• [37]

Any thoughts? It would be nice to mention this at WP:RSP per this discussion

• Prior discussion

- Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea why Snopes insists on calling the site - which has multiple writers it characterises as "reporters", is not written in anything like the style of a personal blog, and is clearly a commercial enterprise with a promotional Twitter account and competent SEO/marketing practices - a "blog". Obviously the boundaries of definitions like "blog" and "news website" are fuzzy but I personally consider it pretty ludicrous to use the term "fan blog" to refer to this kind of commercial operation by a team that clearly includes both writers and marketing professionals.

That said, the Snopes tag about them certainly does make them look untrustworthy - not because they're "a fan blog trying to act like a news site", whatever that even means, but simply because they've published what seem to have been deliberately dishonest clickbait headlines, over and over. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 12:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The question is do they have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, per WP:RS. The Snopes articles show they don't. Is this source used so often that it needs listing at RSP? It's not meant to be a list of all sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I know it's not meant to be used for all sources, but I saw it being used in several Disney related articles. I'm not sure how many times this has come up on various talk pages asking if this is an okay source to use. At the very least it should be mentioned on a Disney related project page dealing with reliable sources for a subject. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 12:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

"Top" lists of characters and shows

Good evening. I would like to know if various top lists like "The 10 Most Powerful Characters" or "The 5 Most Scary movies" are authoritative to confirm any information about the content beyond the sections describing the popularity of the characters or titles among media and audiences? for example. Especially if it's resources like CBR, which as far as I understand, is considered too sensational. Personally, I consider such resources to be unauthoritative, but I am somewhat disconcerted that I continue to periodically see them used to confirm information about various shows or characters. Solaire the knight (talk) 17:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

For CBR specifically, there was a discussion on the Anime Project suggesting "pre-2016 reliable, 2016–mid 2023 situational, mid 2023–present unreliable", though admittedly it didn't have many participants.

More generally, I think using use a reliable source posting a 'Top Ten Anime Fights' to source the basic fact that the described fight did happen would be acceptable if we're trusting the site is reliable, but in my opinion it'd not be ideal since a lot of these listicles aren't exactly high effort or by people who know much. For example, there are a ton of 'Top 5 Visual Novel' lists by large sites that include dating sims, JRPGs, and other similar but different genres in the list. If it's just an opinion that 'X fight is considered the best', then it'd not be too valuable as it's just one opinion and a low effort article. DarkeruTomoe (talk) 18:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I see. The fact is that a number of Sailor Moon characters with non-obvious sexuality (outside of the openly and obviously queer Haruka, Michiru and a few others) were listed as LGBT characters as bisexual, lesbian, etc based on topic list on CBR, which were, to put it mildly, quite sensational and non-obvious (also contradictory since different lists describe the character's sexuality as both fact and fan interpretation). I know that such interpretations and readings are common given the homoerotic nature of the show, but in this case it was quite sensational as a fact with lots of "seems", "maybes", etc. So, I think this would be better suited for a conditional assessment and character study section rather than inclusion as an established fact. Perhaps with a better source. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:45, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Coincidentally, I've seen the same article come up and be dismissed some time ago for the same reasons. When it comes to similar lists of which characters are LGBT (not just as CBR) I've often seen fanon used as fact, so I'd be particularly careful with that topic. DarkeruTomoe (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I thought so too, so I removed these three examples as speculative. But just in case, I wrote about this on the discussion page, because queer readings on SM are quite wide (especially Usagi with her admiration for Rei's beauty), so perhaps someone had a more reliable source. Although I still can’t understand why the user who added them paired the section about Makoto with a source that directly refuted such a reading. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Mental Health America

I've seen two COI edit requests for far by Hairmer, who is being paid by the organization, to add information from MHA to medical articles. I declined the first Talk:Bipolar_disorder#Stats_update as not an improvement over the existing sourcing, and the second Talk:Valerian_(herb)#Add_a_new_section:_Side_effects as close paraphrasing and likely failing WP:MEDRS.

I'd like a second opinion on whether this source is appropriate for relatively uncontroversial mental health information, such as this page for Valerian side effects in the second edit request. The organization is a mental health nonprofit that appears to be mainly focused on their screening tests for various conditions, and I'm not clear on how their informational articles are written and reviewed. Rusalkii (talk) 20:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Mental Health America is a credible organization around since 1909 that have done lot's of research in mental health. Their main goal is mental health awareness. They do annual conferences and also provide mental health screening. Some of the info I was trying to add about Valerian is also in this document. If you scroll to the end of the doc, you will see that the content is well researched with citations. Hairmer (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Neither the website nor the document meet the requirements of WP:MEDRS for detailing side effects of valerian. Schazjmd (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Preserved British Steam Locomotives

I have a strong suspicion that Preserved British Steam Locomotives would fall into the category of a self published source - going by the homepage, it would appear to be information compiled by a single person, with no attribution of sources. The site is primarily being used to source the current status and history of steam locomotives, including their current active status and what colour the locomotives are painted. Danners430 (talk) 05:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd expect that you're correct. It's a Wordpress blog without much customization if any and the wording of the about and contact pages both seems to suggest it's a single person (named David), not to mention they're using a gmail email address. Looks very much like someone's person project. DarkeruTomoe (talk) 07:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

A brief peruse suggests that the information contained there is accurate but I can't see that it contains anything that couldn't be cited from a more reliable source anyway. Black Kite (talk) 11:33, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Allocine

In terms of French media, should Allocine be considered a reliable source? It is essentially “the French equivalent to IMDB”. 2600:100C:A20C:6C0F:440C:5169:5AAC:E774 (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)