Talk:Jats

Edit Request on Military Culture of the Jats, and their Origin

"According to Barbara D. Metcalf and Thomas R. Metcalf:

Upstart warriors, Marathas, Jats, and the like, as coherent social groups with military and governing ideals, were themselves a product of the Mughal context, which recognized them and provided them with military and governing experience. Their successes were a part of the Mughal success.[10]"

Fowler&Fowler, can I kindly suggest that you also provide an opposing academic view of your point, and not only the point which you wish to portray (whether due to bias or not), as we are both aware, they're are alot of historians on India and Jats, and not all of them share the same view:

• 1* According to many sources, the Jats independantly defended Mahmud of Ghazni's attempt to conquer India (or rather, cross to the opposite bank of the indus). Thus it can be concluded that they already had a fairly strong federal military organization of some sort to defend from a Sassanid Emperor.

Sources: The Pearson CSAT Manual 2011 By Edgar Thorpe, Showick Thorpe The Cambridge Shorter History of India

• 2* And the fact that Rajputs and Jats are almost always found inhabiting the same geographic area, share the same (martial) culture, and even the same "gotras", many historians conclude they share the same lineage or racial ancestry (i.e. Scythian tribes Messagetae and Getae), not to mention that the culture itself resembles that of the Scythians (i.e. buffalo sacrifice and worship of the lunar/solar gods or the martial god/goddess):

Sources: A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West, H.A. Rose Structure and Change in Indian Society By Milton Singer, Bernard S. Cohn Al-Hind: the slave kings and the Islamic conquest, By André Wink — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs) 20:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs)

this also applys to varna status as it coccludes that jatts were kshatryas (Wiki00756 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC).

who removed indo aryan origion of jats,and there is also not much written about their culture like their folk dance bhangra,their game kabbadi,hocky,their food etc. i also request the removal of the picture jats in the vincity of delhi as it only shows some villagers not jats!and there are 6 pictures from one book it looks as online version of the book we need some more reliable and good pictures.

more info about sikh states we need to write more about sikh states and emperors as maharaja ranjit singhs army was the only army in the history of the whole world who defeated the brave pathans who were more in number and jats were very less but they still defeated them.and some british scholars claimed that if hari singh nalwa general of ranjits army had lived longer and had the sources and artillery of british,he would have conqured most of asia and europe. and i dont know what it means by not well established castes in india,as at that time india was divided into many different small and big princely states and regions jats were well established in punjab,there is no one caste that can be dominant in whole of india it differs from region to region.(Wiki00756 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 19:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC).

Wiki00756, be bold - just remember to abide by the Five Pillars. JagNatha, from which article did you copy/paste that info above? - Sitush (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

the info is not a copy paste how can u say it is?and it has reliable source. and so what if it is copiid atleast it is true!and remember we are not here to fight orr show that we can write better articles,if u are editing an article then write it fairly.ad dont rely only on 1 or 2 books for sources!and dont insult any person or community!and sitush to abide by 5 pillars goes for u as well.(Wiki00756 (talk))

JagNatha's opening statement sure looks like a copy/paste to me ("[10]") & although it refers to 2 people called Metcalf there does not appear to be a source. AS for "so what if it is a copyvio", well, if that is your attitude then perhaps it would be best if you do not contribute here. Although I did not myself use that term, copy/pasting even from one article to the next is against the terms of our license unless attributed, as that (+ the lack of details re: the Metcalfs) is why I asked the question. As for insults, hm. I've seen that argument before: in my experience, it is usually a last resort of those who cannot otherwise get things "their way". May I remind you that Wikipedia is not not censored. The project exists neither to make someone look good or make them look bad; it exists to present information that is verifiable using reliable sources, and to present such info in a neutral manner. - Sitush (talk) 16:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

but the sources are reliable and true.and we are here to discus about the article not to talk about attitude!if u have any reliable sources then u can share them.but discus only about the article rather than people.and be polite and respectfull.(Wiki00756 (talk))

Er, guys, it's a cut and paste form this article that JagNtha is commenting on. I think chill pills all round. Rich Farmbrough, 22:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC).

Its 2:16am, and I have other work to do,...but for now, let me say: I cannot believe that the current fellowship of wikipedia "article editors" cannot read through the sources themselves (which I have kindly listed), and instead are so busy trying to conclude that I am copying and pasting from a pre-written article. Do you expect me to publish a thesis on the subject? especially when such conclusions have already been made in the sources I have listed...dear God!

--JagNatha (talk) 02:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I finally had time to copy up the sources which regard Jats as tradionally kshatriyas, or taking on kshatriya roles in Punjab. The quotes sourced from the Al-Hind book is particularly interesting, it is obvious that the Jat history in terms of their authority in village/local-level politics hasn't been well recorded, and as most villages where any particular Jat clan resides are usually founded by their ancestors, and hence the clan holds authority of the village, as I cannot publish my personal history, or my own first-hand original research of family-tree's, I have listed the following quotes of published research which does:

Regarding common culture of Jat and Rajput, in terms of Animal Sacrifice (influence of Shaivism and Shaktism), and customs: "Near the top and politically controlling the village 100 or 500 years ago one would have found Rajput or Jat gentry sponsoring the annual sacrifice of young buffaloes, certainly themselves consuming at least eggs, chickens, and liquour, as most Jat and Rajput landlords of adjacent villages do today." Structure and Change in Indian Society, Milton Singer

"The Kedara are usually the bards of Rajputs, Gujar and Jat communities" Rajasthan: Vol 1, K.S. Singh (It is btw, common knowledge that Jat villages often have a clan of bards whom traditionally sang for the Chaudhary of the village.)

Overlap of Jat and Rajput gotra, due to similar origin, but difference is acquired tribal social status:

"The Jat indeed, as elsewhere, claims for himself Rajput origin, but a Varaich for instance does not say that he is still a Rajput. He is a Jat and content to be so. The fact is that within the pale of Sikhism Rajputs were at a discount."

"The Jats who composed the great mass of the Khalsa rose to absolute power, and the Rajput who had despised them was the peculiar object of their hatred. Their general policy led them to cut off such poppy-heads as had not sprung from their own own seed." pg 12

"The Jats of this tract are very largely if not wholly true Jats, who preserve strong traditions as to the Rajput tribes from which they claim to be descended."

Rajputs, Jats and Gurjars sharing common origin and culture:

"The Gurjaras gave dynasties to Kanauj, Ajmer, and other states and from their ruling clans are descended the mass of the modern Rajput clans."

"Gurjara family which attained to Rajput or gentle rank", "Kanets which represent those Gurjaras who did not take to warlike persuits but remained cultivators." "the Rajput (Gurjara) fighting men were accompanied by their humbler pastoral brethren."

--- A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West India, H.A. Rose

Jats converting to Islam due to impact and appeal of Sufism in the extreme North West of India:

"The vast majority of the Jat and Rajput groups of the Panjab that became Muslim in medieval times claim to have converted wither by Shayk Farid ad-din Ganj-i-Shakar (d. 1265 AD), 'Baba Farid' of Pakpattan (the ancient town of Ajudhan) or by his contemporary Baha' al-Haqq Zakariya (d. 1263)" Al-Hind by Andre Wink, also mentioned in "Islam and Empire"

Jats , Rajputs and Maratha tribes being described as Kshatriya Zamindars as early as the 14th Century:

"Rajputs, as Jats, Marathas, and other gentry groups ('tribes') who henceforward were also designated by the generic term Zamindars, lit. 'landholders'..."By the fourtheenth century claims to honourable Kshatriya status were again assertively made by the leading categories of Rajputs." ibid (Al-Hind)

Jats and Rajput tribes unite with Mahmud of Ghazni to resist the Mongol invasions, whereby Khokhars also joined Mahmud, previously being aligned with the Mongols - 12th and 13th Century "By 1249 we again encounter a 'governor of Multan and Lahore' (hakim-i-multan-o-lahur), commading 20,000 chosen horse against the Mongols in Ghazna. This governor, it is specified, was appointed to 'Lahore, Multan, Bha[t]nair, Sirhind, Dipalput, and the other iqta's which were exposed to the incursions of the Mongols'. He not only dealt with the Mongols, but also brought under his control the Jats, Kokhars, Bhattis, Minas, Mandahars, and other similar tribes (tawa'if). [note Bhattis and Minhas being notable Rajput tribes, and Mandahars today being a notable Jat tribe] ibid (Al-Hind.)

Use of Chaudhary and Thakur as a Jat title:

"Thakur = North Indian term for master or lord; used commonly by Rajput and Jat castes."

The Mughal Empire By John F. Richards

"The Jat Thakur is a feudal baron who plunders by night." From the caves and jungles of Hindostan, 1883-1886, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Boris De Zirkoff

"Thakur" (a man of indeterminate gabut mid- level caste, usually implying a landowning caste, often Jat)” Raja Nal and the Goddess: the north Indian epic Dhola in performance By Susan Snow Wadley

"Chaudhary (as the Jats, the Gujars call themselves)", “They call themselves Chaudhries and dismiss the claim of Gujars and Araeens to this title of honour lending hierarchy.” Justice in practice: legal ethnography of a Pakistani Punjabi village

Jats as Kshatriyas: "In the local social hierarchy the Jat perceive their position at a high level and on a par with the Rajput and Brahman." Rajasthan: Volume 1 - Page 443 – K.S. Singh

"The Jats are the sole occupants of the Kshatriya varna in Badipur.", "the Gaur Brahmins stress that the Jats are Kshatriya since they are the purohit of Jats" From hierarchy to stratification: changing patterns of social inequality in a north Indian village, D.B. Miller

"The power and prestige which landowning castes command affect their relations with all castes, including those ritually higher. This is true of parts of the Punjab where the landowning Jats look upon the Brahmins as their servants, and of Madhopur village in easter Uttar Pradesh where formely the dominant Thakurs refused cooked food from all Brahmins except their gurus or religious teachers. In Rampura village in Mysore state, the Brahmin priest of the Rama tample was a figure of fun; when, at a temple festival, he tried to distribute prasara (food consecrated by being offered to the diety) to the congretion, the peasant youths gathered there teased him" , "In the south-east of the province a Hindu Jat took pride in his caste and even looked down upon a Brahmin who in that area was not a priestly caste but cultivators." Social Change in Modern India, By Mysore Narasimhachar Srinivas

[In Sikh Social Structure] "Kshatriyas are considered lower than the Jats." [due to being landless traders in the Punjab]. History Of Ancient India (portraits Of A Nation) By Kapur, Kamlesh

"Jats consider themselves to compose a category of castes along with Rajputs, Gujars, Ahirs and Sainis. They belong to the same varna or caste category: All are Kshatriyas or "rulers" sharing hereditary martial proclivities or leadership qualities.” State, Society, and human rights in South Asia by Stig Toft Madsen

" The Jat race, who followed and pushed the Rajputs farther into NW India, are eminently agricultural and pastoral" Edward Balfour

"The tasks of Rajputs and Jats, identified as Kshatriyas, is warfare and ruling." Local-level politics: social and cultural perspectives Marc J. Swartz

"It may be inferred from the above analysis that the Kshatriyas, whether Jats or Thakurs, are the "model" or "reference group" with which both the lower and the higher castes identify themselves." L. K. Bala Ratnam

"If the Kshatriya status is claimed by the Rajputs and the Khatris, the traditional role of the Kshatriyas as the fighters and owners of land has been taken over in most of the Punjab by the Jats." Proceedings, Punjab University

"Vishwanath also notes that the Jats and Ahir castes of North- Western Provinces who practiced female infanticide in the nineteenth century called themselves Rajputs and identified with the Kshatriya ideology" Female infanticide in India: a feminist cultural history, Rashmi Dube Bhatnagar, Reena Dube

"As late as 1883, Sir Denzil Ibbetson reported that caste affiliation was not important to many Jats. In Doaba they claim to be Kshatriyas,2 the warrior category of the Hindu caste system." Sikhs In England, Arthur Wesley Helweg

"Groups categorized as kshatriya have been economically and politically powerful as rulers, warriors, landlords, and farmers. In northern India, such prominent groups include Rajputs, Thakurs, and Jats" Encyclopedia of Asian History: Volume 2, Ainslie Thomas Embree

"Imperceptibly, the Scythians readily accepted for themselves the class-name "Rajput", acknowledged the Brahman for their teacher and friend and the Brahmanic temple as their religion, while the class-name "Jat" was coined for..." Discovery of Pakistan, by Abdul Aziz

"The dynamism of the west can also be explained in part by the character of the Jats and other high castes who work with their hands. The Jat area begins in the Punjab and ends in the districts immediately to the east of Delhi. Beyond this area, the high castes often observe the taboo on ploughing."

"Brahmins and Jats sit together in the same chaupal, whilst the harijans are not offered a seat" "(Jats and Thakurs smoke the same Hookah.) Studies in Indian agriculture: the art of the possible By Gilbert Étienne

JagNatha (talk) 05:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I am pretty confused with this wall of text. What are you actually suggesting that the article should say? A lot of the sources above look to be pretty poor, and I am concerned about original research and synthesis but we may be able to rescue something. - Sitush (talk) 05:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I completely forgot about this issue for a while as I have been busy with other affairs.

I am firstly suggesting that "The Jat people are a community of traditionally non-elite tillers" should be removed. What the hell is an "elite tiller"? or a "non-elite tiller"? , what exactly is meant by "elite" according to Fowler&Fowler is HIGHLY ambigious. The "elites" change from time to time. Is he suggesting that there has only been a single "elite" community in India? that is absolutely arrogant. He is quoting from the same source on three occasions, where his source ("Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century ..." by Susan), the source is ill-researched and unreliable, and from what i've read of it, fails to mention at all the existence of any Jat chieftain after the 13th century (though many sources, such as "The Oxford History of India", Smith, mention Jat elites from 16th century). Until Fowler&Fowler provides a quote from his source with regards to what "elite" actually means in his context, the phrase "The Jat people are a community of traditionally non-elite tillers" should be removed.

"Agrarian environments: resources, representations, and rule in India" by By Arun Agrawal, K. Sivaramakrishnan, a well known academic who specialises in research ethnic groups actually suggests:

"Coming from the elite Rajput caste who historically ruled in the region, and from the powerful Jat community that is usually associated with farming", actually contradicts Jats being non-elite in comparison with Rajputs (which is what Fowler&Fowlers following quote is suggesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people#cite_note-17), unless both can be explained at the same time in the statement, the statement should NOT be included in order to confuse readers, and possibly even offend an ethnic group.

Furthermore, the Ain-I-Akbari (a 16th century documentation recording the administration of Hindustan under Akbar) itself mentions Jat zamindars, thus concluding that Jats did not "arise as landowners after the 17th century, from being non-elites" as Fowler&Fowler would passionately love to put it, but rather, the Jats where already Zamindars during Akbars era.

Quote: "The Ain-I-Akbari records the presence of Jat zamindar castes and well-irrigation in the Doabs of the Punjab. ", "By the time of Akbar, the Subah of Lahore is described as agriculturally very fertile and yielding a healthy revenue...The numerically larger zamindar castes include the Jats, Bhattis, Rajputs and various others" Ancient Indian Social History: Some Interpretations By Romila Thapar

JagNatha (talk) 12:06, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Susan Bayly is in fact a very highly respected researcher in this area. I do not understand the purpose of the quote from Agrawal - it seems to confirm that they were a farming community. The Ain-I-Akbari is not a reliable source. Thapar is, of course, but I have no idea what her opinion of the Ain-I-Akbari may be - merely noting that it says what it does is insufficient. - Sitush (talk) 20:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point here Sitush. Agrawal is confirming that they where a farming community, but throughout the book explains how these farmers (essentially the european equivalent of the yeomans and the 'lower' gentry) had dominion over multiple village politics, and thus had much political power especially after the 15th century. Baring in mind that villages where independent in their political affairs (apart from the fact that they had to pay revenue to the emperors subedar), i.e. there where no "elites" over these villages, the "chaudhary"/chieftain/founder of the village was the elite. More quotes can be provided from all three sources if need be. And may I ask why Ain-i-Akbari isn't in you're opinion a reliable source? I find Thapars source fairly reliable to say the least, obviously the quote was too large to copy, so I broke the large paragraph into essentially three sentences. [[1]], here's the original text. She is stating that by the time of Akbar, the Jats, Bhattis and Rajputs where numerically the largest of the zamindar castes.JagNatha (talk) 21:54, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not trying to debunk Susan Bayly's academic research, but am rather suggesting that having read through the whole book myself, I believe Fowler&Fowler is taking the work out of context. If you look at page 41 of "Caste, Society and Politics in India from the Eighteenth Century to the...", it clearly suggests Jats and many other non-elites had lordly titles. It is clearly obvious (having a quick reading through the book) that by "elite", the author is refering to ritual "kingship" as per brahministic rituals, rather than financial or statutory rights of the Jats of the 18th century (as I have pointed out earlier, there are many accounts of Jat takhurs by the 16th century. I have even pointed out to a photograph of a Jat thakur of Alipur taken in the late eigteenth century. I see no reason why the change I propose should be ignored. JagNatha (talk) 21:54, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

I have been waiting for a response for a month, if I do not hear anything by the end of today, I will assume that my change (in removal of the 'traditionally non-elite') has no valid reason for being averted. JagNatha (talk) 10:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that the reason why you are getting no response is because Fowler is on and off Wikipedia at the moment, due to personal commitments. However, I disagree with your interpretation regarding elite/non-elite. We do not make up our own definitions of what a reliable source says - we just say it. - Sitush (talk) 10:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I understand that wikipedia's policies are not aimed at scholars, but rather book-readers. Many other very reliable sources (both, translations of primary texts of the time, and genuinely well researched secondary sources) contradict with that one quote, in many ways. Surely, if you disagree with the removal of that phrase being used in the article, you must agree to the addition of reliable quotes from the Oxford History of India by Vincent Arthur Smith (and others). JagNatha (talk) 13:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, I don't think Fowlers absence/presence on Wikipedia should affect the quality of the article, and I don't think Wikipedia's policies do either. JagNatha (talk) 13:28, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I am not reading all of the above yet again. Can you be more specific? What other sources? What quotes from Smith etc? What actually are you proposing now? - Sitush (talk) 13:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The incorrect use of "Princely States" in the article

"The more triumphant even attaining the ranks of minor princes, such as the Jat ruler Badan Singh of the princely state of Bharatpur.[25] "

Bharatpur was a kingdom, not a princely state, it only became a "princely state" under the administration of the British Empire. Hence why Badan Singh was a Maharaja (a King) and not simply a "Raja" or "Kanwar" (prince). Thus the statement should be corrected in the following manner:

"The more triumphant, such as the Jat ruler Badan Singh, even established kingdoms such as Bharatpur.[25]"

(and fyi, quote 25 even states Badan Singh as a king and not a prince).

The statement "Princely State" is being misused over and over again throughout the article by Fowler&Fowler, and I urge it be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs) 22:00, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Another picture of a Jat Thakur of the 18th century

a Thakur for comparison purposes (as all pictures are of the 18th century), most of the current ("openly licensed") pictures chosen for the article only portray the financially/economically/politically mediocre Jats of the time.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/aligarhmao/town/people9.jpg

From Aligarh, ruled by Thunea Jats for quite some time I believe (though I will soon copy quotes to back that statement up), however, the picture of should do for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs) 22:10, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 April 2012

Shreyesh1986 (talk) 06:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.   — Jess· Δ♥ 07:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 April 2012

Jats in Indian epics Jats are the earliest kshatriyas. The mention of Jat word by the famous Sanskrit scholar Panini of 900 BCE in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. Which means the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. It proves that the Jats are the most ancient people.

Jats in Shiva Stotra

Shiva Stotra is another most ancient epic, which mentions one thousand names of Lord Shiva, also mentioned in ‘Shalya Parva’ of Mahabharata, in which one of the names of god is ‘Jat’ and appears at serial number 489. Mahabharata Anushasan Parva chapter 17 shloka 89 reads as under:

महानखो, महारोमा, महाकोशो, महाजट: Mahānakho, Mahāromā, Mahākosho, Mahājata

प्रसन्नश्च, प्रसादश्च, प्रत्यो, गिरिसाधन: Prasannasha, Prasādasha, Pratyo, Girisādhana

Meaning - Mahanakha, Maharoma, Mahakosha, Mahajata, Prasanna, Prasada, Pratyaya, Girisadhana are the names of Lord Ishvara.

How old is Jat

According to an ancient story Brahma appointed Kartikeya as the commander of all the beings. Kartikeya got various gifts out of which there was a lord of all commanders named ‘Jat’. (Mahabharata Shalya Parva chapter 44 and 45). The shloka reads as under:

अक्ष: सन्तर्जनो राजन् कुन्दीकश्च तमोन्नकृत । Akshah santarjano rājana kundīkashcha tamonnakrita

एकाक्षो द्वादशक्षश्च तथैवैक जट: प्रभु ।। ५८ ।। Ekaksho dvadashkshashcha tathaivaika jatah prabhu

Meaning – Aksha, Santarjana, Kundika, Tamonnakrata, Ekaksha, dvadasha, and a ‘Jat’ lord of all (O Rajana ! gifted to swami Kartikeya)

It is believed in Hindu mythology that Brahma was the creator of the universe. As per Hindu cosmology the period of creation of the universe by Brahma was 1,97,29,49,108 years back in samvat 2063 (2006). It means the word ‘Jat’ is as old as the universe. [1]

Jats in Rigveda

Jats find a mention in most ancient Indian literature. Over sixty clans are named in the Rig Veda.[2] In the Mahabharata as they are mentioned ‘Jartas’ in ‘Karna Parva’. The famous Sanskrit scholar Panini]] of 900 BCE has mentioned in his Sanskrit grammar known as Ashtyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट संघाते or “Jat Jhat Sanghate”. This means that the terms 'Jat' and 'democratic federation' are synonymous. He has mentioned many Jat clans as settled in Punjab and North west areas.

Jats in Grammar of Chandra

Jats are mentioned in the grammar treatise of Chandra of the fifth century in the phrase sentence अजय जर्टो हुणान or “Ajay Jarto Hunān, which refers to the defeat of Huns by the Jats under the leadership of Yasodharman. The inscription of Mandsaur also indicates that Yasodharman, the ruler of Malwa, was a Jat of the Virk gotra ( clan). [3]

Jats in the Deva Samhitā

There is mention of Jats in “Deva Samhitā” [4] in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. For example in the 'Deva Samhitā' of Gorakh Sinha from the early medieval period, when Pārvatī asks Shiva about characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in sanskrit shloka-15 as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāh

सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्टा देवकल्पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devkalpā dridh-vratāh

Meaning - 'They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the Warriors, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth.'

Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita:

श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित: hrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitah

कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jatta maheshwarī.

Meaning – 'In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha’s daughtergana's womb originated the caste of Jats'.

In the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' when Pārvatī asks about the origin of Jats, Shiva tells Parvati that:

गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī

विचित्रं विस्मयं सत्वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam

Meaning - 'The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals lest it should injure and impair their false pride and of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you'.

Etymology of the word "Jat"

The most acceptable theory about the origin of the word, 'Jat' is that it has originated from the Sanskrit language word “Gyat” . The Mahabharata mentions in chapter 25, shloka 26 that Lord Krishna founded a federation ‘Gana-sangha’ of the Andhak and Vrishni clans. This federation was known as ‘Gyati-sangh’. Every member of this sangha was called Gyat. over a period of time due to linguistic variaions it became Jat. [5]

The other prominent theory of the word's origins is that Jat came from the word Gaut tribal name of some Indo-Aryan tribes of Central Asia (such as those which later became Gauts/Goths and settled in Europe), which was written in 'Jattan Da Ithihas'. It has also been mentioned by Bhim Singh Dahiya. [6]

According to the historian 'Ram Lal Hala' the word Jat is drived from word 'Yat'. There was a king named 'Yat' in Chandra Vanshi clan who was ancestor of Lord Krishna. The Jats are descendants of King Yat. 'Yat' later changed to 'Jat'.[7]

Need to search epics

Since the word Jat existed from the beginning of the universe it must find place in various Indian epics. The main Indian epics worth mentioning are as follows: Vedas (Rigveda, Yjurveda, Samaveda, Athavaveda), Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishadas, Vedanga (Shiksha, Chandas, Vyakarnas, Nirukta, Jyotisha, Kalpa), Mahabharata, Ramayana, Purana, Smriti, Bhagvadgita, Panchatantra, Kumar Vyasa Bharata, Stotra, Ramacharitamanas.

I searched some of the Indian and Hindu epics and produced as above some examples about the antiquity existence of word Jat and the history of Jats. It will be of great help to find more literature and linkages with the Jat history. In addition to the Hindu literature and epics the Buddhist and Jain books also have a great treasure about Jat history, not explored so far. Thus there is a need to research these sacred epics if we have to reconstruct the true Jat history.

115.246.229.164 (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: It is not clear what you would like to change. Please express yourself in a 'please change X to Y' degree of detail and provide reliable sources for any facts. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 23:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Important Scholars who identified Massagetaeans as "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia

Important Scholars who identified Jat people as Massagetaeans:

• Sir John Marshall, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: "These Scythian invaders came principally from the three great tribes of Massagetae (great Jats), Sacaraucae, and Dahae (still exists as a Jat clan of Punjab)[1], whose home at the beginning of the second century B.C. was in the country between the Caspian sea (sea) and the Jaxartes river (Central Asia).[2]

• Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski wrote: "The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas) & Massagetae (great Jats) tribes from the Syr Darya Delta (Central Asia) by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darya tribes; they also invaded North India.[3]

• James Francis Katherinus Hewitt wrote: "Further evidence both of the early history and origin of the race of Jats, or Getae, is given by the customs and geographical position of another tribe of the same stock, called the Massagetae, or great (massa) Getae."[4]

• Syed Muhammad Latif wrote: "A considerable portion of the routed army of the Scythians settled in the Punjab, and a race of them, called Nomardy, inhabited the country on the west bank of the Indus (river). They are described as a nomadic tribe, living in wooden houses, after the old Scythian fashion, and settling where they found sufficient pasturage. A portion of these settlers, the descendants of Massagetae, were called Getes, from whom sprung the modern Jats."[5]

• Arnold Joseph Toynbee wrote: "It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab."[6]

• Arnold Joseph Toynbee, also wrote: "It had been carried from the Oxus-Jaxartes Basin into the Indus Basin by the Massagetae themselves, together with their tribal name (the Jats), in their Volkerwander- ung in the second century BC"[7]

• George Rawlinson has also identified the Massagetaeans as "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[8][9][10][11][17]

• Satya Shrava wrote: "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known."[12][13]

• Sir Richard Francis Burton wrote: "The Massagetae (greater Jats or Goths) are opposed to the Thyssa (or lesser) Getae, and both used the sagaris."[14]

References:

(1) Dahiya, B.S., Jats: The Ancient Rulers, Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, India, 1980, pp. 23.

(2) Sir John Marshall, (Sir, Hon. Fellow of King's College, Cambridge University, and formerly Director-General of Archaeology in India), A Guide to Taxila, Cambridge University Press, London, 1960, pp. 24.

(3) Professor T. Sulimirski, The Sarmatians, Praeger Publishers, New York, 1970, pp. 113-114.

(4) Hewitt, J. F., The Ruling Races of Prehistoric Times in India, South-Western Asia and Southern Europe, Archibald Constable & Co., London, 1894, pp. 481-487.

(5) Latif, S. M., History of the Panjab, Reprinted by Progressive Books, Lahore, Pakistan, 1984, first published in 1891, pp. 56.

(6) Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1939). A Study of History. Volume 2. London: Oxford University Press. p. 435.

(7) Royal Institute of International Affairs; Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1962). A Study of History (2 ed.). Volume 10. Oxford University Press. p. 54.

(8) Rawlinson, George (1873). The sixth great Oriental monarchy: or, The geography, history, & antiquities of Parthia. Longmans, Green, and co. p. 118

(9) Rawlinson, George (1893). The story of Parthia. G. P. Putnam's sons. p. 110.

(10) Rawlinson, George (2007). Parthia. Cosimo, Inc. p. 110. ISBN 160206136X.

(11) Rawlinson, George (2010). The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World: Or, The History, Geography and Antiquities of Chaldæa, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia, and Sassanian Or New Persian Empire. Volume 3. Nottingham Society. p. 66.

(12) Shrava, Satya (1981). The Sakas in India (revised ed.). New Delhi: Pranava Prakashan, 1981.

(13) http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

(14) Burton, Richard Francis (Sir) (2008). The Book of the Sword. Cosimo, Inc. p. 90. ISBN 1605204366, 9781605204369.

— 11:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.211.84.74 (talk)

Viva La Truth  !! — 05:42, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I am unsure what it is that you expect us to do with the above information but note that )a) Dahiya is a fringe theorist and (b) almost all of the other sources that you list are way too old to be reliable and some - notably, Toynbee - were not even primarily Indic scholars. Can you find some more recent sources, please. - Sitush (talk) 05:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

• Weer Rajendra Rishi wrote: "Some of the Indian writers including Rahul Sankrityayan and Ujagar Singh Mahil in his book "Antiquity of Jat Race" say that Jats inhabiting the northern India are the descendants of Massagetae, or Malta (great) Getae or Jat."[15]

Reference:

(15) Rishi, Weer Rajendra (1982). India & Russia: linguistic & cultural affinity. Roma Publications. p. 95.

— 14:26, 14 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.61.19 (talk)

Hm, neither a linguist nor a Marxist travel writer seem likely to be great sources for this point. But who is this linguist? Are Roma Publications an academic press, a private publisher, or what? There are various wild theories regarding origins of various Indic groups - connecting them with Russia, Hungary and other places that, on the face of it, seem pretty unlikely. Some claim affinity with the Roma/"Gypsy" community but I seem to recall that was also deemed to be a fringe theory a few months ago. As with those theories, the one that you mention is going to need a rock-solid source in my opinion. - Sitush (talk) 16:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

• Steven M. Collins also advocates that the Massagetaeans are none other than the "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[16]

Reference:

(16) Collins, Steven M. (2005). Israel's Tribes Today (illustrated ed.). Book 4 of Lost tribes of Israel, Steven M. Collins.Bible Blessings. ISBN 0972584935, 9780972584937.

— 13:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Collins @ Canadian British-Israel Association. — 13:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.200.62.233 (talk)

I really do think that you may not understand our reliable sources policy.Collins looks highly suspect to me: what qualifications etc does he have? Has he ever been peer reviewed by recognised academics? Why is his publisher reliable? His own website has the appearance of of representing a fringe theorist/self-publicist. - Sitush (talk) 13:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

(17) Rawlinson, George (2012). The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 6. (of 7): Parthia The History, Geography, And Antiquities Of Chaldaea, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia, And Sassanian or New Persian Empire, With Maps and Illustrations. Tredition. ISBN 3847205145, 9783847205142.

— 07:09, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

This is a modern reprint of an old source which is in the public domain. You have been told umpteen times that old sources such as this are not appropriate. I am not going to respond further to your suggestions unless they comply with our policies. - Sitush (talk) 07:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

• Balbir Singh Dhillon also advocates that the Massagetaeans are none other than the "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[18]

Reference:

(18) Dhillon, Balbir Singh (1994). History and study of the Jats: with reference to Sikhs, Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, Goths, and Jutes (illustrated ed.). Canada: Beta Publishers. ISBN 1895603021, 9781895603026.

— 13:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.58.5 (talk) Please look at this page describing Dhillon. He's an engineer. His degrees are in engineering. He is clearly no authority on Indian history. Not WP:RS. Qwyrxian (talk)

Because: "Until Lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter!" — 13:32, 28 August 2012 (UTC)