Talk:Patriot Act

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Date issue

The first act reauthorized all but two of the provisions of Title II that would have expired. Two sections were changed to sunset on December 31, 2009: section 206 — the roving wiretap provision — and section 215, which allowed access to business records under FISA. Section 215 was amended further regardless so as to give greater judicial oversight and review. Such orders were also restricted to be authorized by only the FBI Director, the FBI Deputy Director, or the Executive Assistant Director for National Security, and minimization procedures were specified to limit the dissemination and collection of such information. Section 215 also had a "gag" provision, which was changed to allow the defendant to contact their Attorney.[168]

The source isn't an online link. Wikifan12345 (talk) 23:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Who says it has to? However, that said - I should point out that someone has modified the US Code template to remove external links to the code. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 13:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Obama?

what will obama do about the patriot act? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.186.67.7 (talk) 02:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Nothing. He is the President now. The Patriot Act belongs to Congress. If he had any intention of doing anything, he would have done it when he was a member of Congress. Perhaps, when he is no longer President, he may decide to go back to Congress and do something. However, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so we won't make wild predictions about the distant future. -- kainaw™ 14:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

But you just did make a wild prediction! :-) It was a silly question. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 16:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)u

Yea, I'm pretty sure he is bound by the Constitution to enforce the laws of Congress, regardless of whether he thinks a particular provision of law is unconstitutional or whatever his opinion is. 173.63.2.241 (talk) 20:39, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Please note that this is not a forum for general discussion on the Patriot Act. Last time I checked though, Obama isn't doing anything about the Patriot Act. And honestly, he does have bigger problems to tackle right now.--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail} 02:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I left this reply in the wrong place, and further am replying to people who were talking about this before Obama signed the renewal. Anyhow, it was not a stupid question Kainaw may have been dismissing. Obama as president certainly has tremendous power over the PATRIOT act. In fact, it has sunset provisions and the most powerful aspects of the law go away if not renewed (some organizational changes don't revert, since departments were shuffled around). Many House democrats promised not to pass HR 514, brought by the same congressman (Sensenbrenner) who initially introduced PATRIOT weeks after the 9/11 attacks, because PATRIOT was "the worst legislation in the history of congress" (Conyers), but it did pass after initially failing, and Obama signed "To extend expiring provisions of the USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005 and Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004" on February 25, 2011. This constitutes a major broken promise, or change of heart, depending on how you'd like to characterize it. I'm not here to offer an opinion on whether Obama was right to renew PATRIOT, but he indeed did absolutely that. It's merely an extension of the sunset provisions. It will expire if the same thing doesn't happen later. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.514: I am afraid I am not very familiar with how to edit wikipedia, so I'll just leave this comment and hope for the best. Cheers! 74.192.163.136 (talk) 11:35, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Obama has not challenged the Act although it was his third highest pre election promise and from everything I have read plans not to, I am surprised there is neither entry or mention, anyone have a view to me adding it....? Twobells (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Before you edit, I suggest you read this bill which Obama signed http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.514: that relates to the PATRIOT act's continued existence in public law 74.192.163.136 (talk) 11:35, 22 April 2011 (UTC).

to negative

i feel like this is a little too negative an article. To stay objective i think there should be Benefits section to accompany the criticism section. Also the background section should have more information on who passed it how it was drafted and when it was in committee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.207.120 (talk) 21:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

To date, there has not been a single incident that showed any real benefit to having the patriot act. 69.214.158.153 (talk) 09:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

When you make such a claim, you can be certain that it demonstrates an opinion based on ignorance, not fact. From this: "In one case, Patriot Act electronic communications authorities allowed law enforcement agencies to identify a person who had sent 200 threatening letters laced with white powder in Lafayette, La." That is a single incident. -- kainaw™ 13:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but if you pretend to be neutral and/or critical, you better think twice. This is a document about current events that most of the World see as a selfish act. If you don't agree, it ok. But it's a fact.

Wikipedia have guidelines about keeping the scrutiny of unbiased and good source of information, Thus I think it's unfair to claim the topic as negative and biased when you begin your statement with "I feel like this is a little too negative an article"...

As far as I know, Wikipedia is not supposed to be an pro-USA on-line encyclopedia. The reason you are against the claims about "any [no] real benefits", you replied it isn't fair and your argument against is "because it already worked for USA".

Then you defines what means "opinion" by yourself and make it looks as a Worldwide or even American's common sense. No, it's not. You talk about what a "claim" is supposed to be, "ignorance" and put it all together in an argument that isn't far more biased than the one you disregard.

Benefits? try "Its unconstitutional" Prove me wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.149.203.74 (talk) 06:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The Supreme Court decides what is and what is not Constitutional and, as of this writing, they have not declared the current act to be unconstitutional. Perhaps you are using a rather ignorant definition of "constitutional". -- kainaw™ 15:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I wrote much of this article. There are certainly sections that have proven to be unconstitutional. However, most of the Act is not. We have pointed out in this article the bits that were struck down by the courts, and we've also pointed out the bits that have proven most controversial. However, if you could point out which bits you feel we've missed out on, I'll certainly review whether we need to make corrections. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 14:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute

The Patriot Act was discussed heavily during the 1990's after the Oklahoma City Bombing, during the Bill Clinton Administration. This article starts in the 21st century with George W Bush after September 11, 2001. Was somebody sleeping? There were many pop cultural references to the Patriot Act that predate the year 2000. If you remember history, in the 1990's there was a lot of media coverage regarding ultra-patriot or ultra-conservative Militias (including outright fascist) and other militant groups of Americans who were "paranoid" about the Patriot Act (this tied in to militant sub-culture ideology and conspiracy theory) and the irrational fears of Y2K. There was plenty of talk about the Patriot Act during the Clinton years, so there may be something missing from this article. The History Channel (I sympathize if you don't trust the cable tv media) has done documentaries on the 1990's discussing the political landscape in America, it spoke of the Patriot Act as being the COINTELPRO of the Clinton Administration to monitor "Ultraconservative" paramilitary organizations. I know for a fact this patriot act talk is over ten years old dating back to the 20th century. If you follow this Link you can watch a 1990's TV show on YouTube discussing the Patriot Act (This should prove it was not a George Bush concept) --Recovery Psychology (talk) 00:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I understand the concerns here, but when I originally wrote the page it turned out that it was about 150KB 220KB! That's 5 about 7 and a third times the recommended size of a normal article. Unfortunately, there's a lot of material to cover, and we've had to summarise a lot of the material in an umbrella format. However, if you notice in the section "Background", there is a link to the article History of the USA PATRIOT Act, which I originally wrote but was moved to this page by another editor. This actually goes back even further than the Oklahoma City Bombing, and in fact covers Watergate and formation of FISA and other acts. I haven't really covered the Oklahoma Bombings... perhaps you could add to this article this material? - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 14:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I rechecked... and it was actually 220KB. This page is actually about 150KB. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 13:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting the Conservapedia article does not say anything about the Patriot Act prior to 2001 and the Bush Administration either...I may be confused but it would appear that this Act has gone from being the thing that the conservative right feared to the thing that the liberal left fears over the last twenty years...but then again Conservapedia claiming that Wikipedia is too liberal and anti-American is poorly educated on Conservativism and America, to begin with.--Recovery Psychology (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's not a bad article. Not as comprehensive as this one, but then I'm biased. But then again, so are they :-) Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 12:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Title V?

Where is it? It has its own article but it's not even mentioned in this one. 165.123.123.25 (talk) 12:56, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought part of the act was repealed?

I've read on various websites and news articles that the act or part of it was repealed, why isn't this information included? 72.39.210.23 (talk) 11:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you have links to those newspaper stories? Articles are written by volunteers so it can sometimes fall behind current events. -----J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:35, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The Obama administration is actually working hard to get all expiring sections renewed before the Dec 31 deadline. It will be difficult, because of the holidays. However, Congress is just as interested in keeping (if not increasing) the power of the Patriot Act as the President is. The main debate now is the spending increases. The Democrats want to funnel the money into companies and friends that support the Democrats. The Republicans want to funnel the money into companies and friends that support the Republicans. Nobody gets money if they don't come to an agreement. So, expect them to finish it up on Dec 30 and renew the whole thing on Dec 31. -- kainaw™ 17:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Background change

I see that someone reduced the background sentence to a single sentence (vandalism!) and then someone came along and corrected it. However, they also noted that it allowed the U.S. government to spy on its citizens, which is patently false.

I have reverted back again now. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 05:14, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Patently false? The ACLU would disagree with that statement. "Without citation" might be more accurate. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 08:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

No, no they wouldn't. It does not allow search and seizure or spying on U.S. citizens. Point me to where it does, and point me to the ACLU article that says it does please. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 13:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

"Section 215 vastly expands the FBI's power to spy on ordinary people living in the United States, including United States citizens and permanent residents."... etc. From here: http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/215.html. Weather that is true or not, I don't feel qualified to speculate. -----J.S (T/C/WRE) 21:36, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The issue is the use of the words "expands" and 'spy". It doesn't state that the FBI can actually spy on people. It states that the power to do so has been expanded - which only implies that the power to do so has been realized and is in practice. It is a purposeful implication. They want you to believe that the government is spying on you. As for the word "spy", they are using examples such as recording library records. They do not mention phone taps. The implication is that the government has a secret agent in your closet who is recording everything you do. Again, it is purposeful implication. They want you to believe that the government is inside your house invading your privacy. So, the actual quote - word for word - should be used if it is to be added to the article. Allow the reader to jump to conclusions about what the statement means. -- kainaw™ 18:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

POV paragraph

The following has been removed from the controversy section, due to use of weasel words and editorialising.

The USA Patriot Act was adopted as an effort to strengthen national security but some believe it impedes upon civil liberties in order to increase national security. The impact of the Bush administration’s national security legislation on Fourth Amendment rights has been the subject of much debate. Under the Fourth Amendment, law enforcement must have reasonable grounds to believe that the law is being violated before a search warrant can be issued (Davis, 2003). This requirement helps to limit the focus and targets of criminal investigations, control overzealous law enforcement officers and protect innocent civilians (Davis, 2003). However, the Patriot Act’s effect on civil liberties grants government agencies the ability to share sensitive information with one another to a much greater extent than was previously possible (Henderson, 2002). The government can use the Patriot Act to disseminate surveillance information more broadly than it did in the past; thus, the privacy concerns of American citizens are more significant.

I would suggest also that if it is readded that it not just be stuck in the middle of the controversy section, but made to flow better (I note all of the points made have been covered already!) and to use ref tags for consistency with the rest of the article. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 13:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

When I reread it, it's not editorializing. However, it sticks out like a sore thumb... - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 13:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Dubious claim?

"This was the first time in U.S. history that U.S. government tried to take the freedoms of its people. "<--this is manifestly false, there are numerous examples in US history of the U.S. gov't abusing the freedoms of its people, with particularly massive examples being the dispossession of natives, slavery, Jim Crow, the denial of rights to women, and so on. That sentence needs to go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gensmahaut (talk • contribs) 13:40, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

In the civil war President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus (latter overturned by the Supreme Court). That might be a more equivalent example. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 05:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see this in the article... - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 12:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I see it has been removed - this is a good thing! It was a particularly dubious claim, and clearly editorializing. - Tbsdy lives (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) ^talk 12:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Protect Page?

Should we semi-protect this article? Percent chance that any anonymous edit is vandalism is pretty close to 100! Asbruckman (talk) 16:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Obama just signed a one year extension on Mar 1, 2010

This should probably be added somewhere. Minjin (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact I came to this page looking for information as to whether or not Obama had repealed the act. A section on the patriot act's post-Bush history will be important, going forward. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 01:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Remember to keep in mind that Presidents don't have the authority to repeal laws. Thankfully, only Congress can do that. Courts can prevent the enforcement of illegal parts of laws too. 173.63.2.241 (talk) 20:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The acronym...omg

Just a comment - how long do you think it took for the brilliant guys in Washington to come up with the words that makes up this acronym? USA PATRIOT act?? Man...Children of the dragon (talk) 01:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

This is not a discussion forum. Are you looking for documentation from Congress about how long it took to name the act? -- kainaw™ 01:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't the title of the Act (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism) be USAPATRIOT, rather than USA PATRIOT, considering the acronym is of ten letters, rather than three and seven? This is not the United States of America PATRIOT Act (USA PATRIOT Act). As presented, the name is misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.24.220 (talk) 09:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

It is titled as the US Congress titled it. If you don't like the name, you need to run for Senator and change the name. Making silly complaints on Wikipedia won't do anything. -- kainaw™ 13:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I was under the impression that wikipedia strives for accuracy. In the preamble, it is stated that the name of the Act is an acronym. The acronym is of ten letters length. If, in fact, it is two acronyms, of 3 and 7 letters each, then that should be stated. By all means make snide comments regarding points of accuracy, but such comments really are unnecessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.24.220 (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Your impression is not correct. Wikipedia strives to be a coherent source of information from verifiable third-party sources. If all the verifiable sources fail to be accurate, then Wikipedia strives to be less than accurate. -- kainaw™ 15:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

If, as you claim, Wikipedia does not correct inaccuracies, then titling this item USA PATRIOT Act is consistent. However, to then describe this as a single acronym is a mistake of Wikipedia. It is two acronyms (or more correctly, a three letter initialism, and seven letter acronym). Wikipedia's "striving to be less than accurate" should, surely, not stretch to grammatical inexactitude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.24.220 (talk) 10:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

What it "should" or "shouldn't" be called doesn't matter. What matters is what it's actually called. Considering that the whole point of the acronym is to form the words "USA" and "Patriot", it would be quite silly of them to write it as a single word, and it would also be much harder to read as one word. The name is so ridiculously silly that it's hard for non-Americans to take the whole thing seriously, but that doesn't really change much. - Alltat (talk) 20:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Lede is too long . . .

Lede is too long and detailed. Those working on this article might help it by taking much of the detail out of the lede and putting it into the appropriate sections in the body of the article. Sincerely, your friend, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:40, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Tea Party blocks extension (2/8/11)???

I've just heard that the Tea Party blocked the extension, and this will result in the expiration of the PATRIOT Act. Has anyone heard more? 96.233.148.163 (talk) 00:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

This is legitimate, I will create add this in the "Reauthorizations" section. Here is an AP link about it: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PATRIOT_ACT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-02-08-22-12-28 67.180.137.188 (talk) 05:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

First, the Tea Party cannot block any sort of extension of the Patriot Act because the Tea Party is not part of Congress. The House of Representatives failed to renew three parts of the Patriot Act. The result can go in many ways. They not be renewed, so they will expire and the Patriot Act will continue without them. They may expire and be rewritten in a different form. So, the Patriot Act will change. They may be voted on again before they expire and renewed. The last is the most likely result. Both the Senate and the House plan to vote on extending them through the end of 2013. -- kainaw™ 16:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

NPOV - Wikipedia should take no side in whether this Act is Constitutional

I have taken out the incorrect wording in the first paragraph that says President Bush signed this act "into law." According to 16 American Jurisprudence 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256: "The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement." An unconstitutional statute is not a "law," and should not be called a "law," even if it is sustained by a court, for a finding that a statute or other official act is constitutional does not make it so, or confer any authority to anyone to enforce it.

No congressman will call the USA PATRIOT Act a "law" because that would be taking personal responsibility for guaranteeing its constitutionality. Calling something a "law" in context of its applicability to the people when its constitutionality is clearly in question is fraud. It can cause monetary damages, and it opens one up to lawsuits. Members of the Congress are smart enough to refer to it as "an Act." Wikipedia should follow their lead and refer to this act as what it is, an act signed by the president. Wikipedia takes no side in whether or not it is constitutional. --DarrenLarsen (talk) 21:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

As I pointed out on your talk page, the text you are quoting is mostly correct - though it makes reference to a thing called an "unconstitutional law." You are misreading it. Only the Supreme Court can declare a law to be unconstitutional. What you are doing is declaring it to be unconstitutional and then declaring that in being unconstitutional, it cannot be a law. You are not the Supreme Court. Until the Supreme Court makes a decision, it is a law. Wikipedia is not taking sides. It is reporting the fact that it was passed into law and has not, at this time, been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The instant that it is declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, the article will need to be edited to reflect that it is retroactively declared to never have been a law. -- kainaw™ 14:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Blatent liberal propaganda.

This whole article reeks. Its so clearly biased against the act its unbelievable. All this talk of civil liberties being ignored... but there is no mention of our lord saviour the Jesus Christ. That's where our liberties come from anyhow. And if he had all those planes crashing into his finance centres well all us decent conservative folk know he would be darn pissed. Not you god fearing liberals of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.227.74.161 (talk) 06:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

• First, "Blatant" is spelled with an 'a' not an 'e'. Second, if you have any specific concerns about the neutrality of this article, please list them on this talk page so we can address them. Third, Jesus Christ is not out "lord and savior." He is a mythological invention used to control people. --Ashershow1_{talk•contribs} 00:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Extension????

This article says:

In a vote on February 8, 2011, the House of Representatives considered a further extension of the Act through the end of 2011.[176] House leadership moved the extension bill under suspension of the rules, which is intended for noncontroversial legislation and requires two-thirds majority to pass.[176] After the vote, the extension bill did not pass; 277 members voted in favor, which was less than the 290 votes needed to pass the bill under suspension of the rules.[176] Without an extension, the Act is set to expire on February 28, 2011.

Is this true? According to the source it cites it appears to be true, however this, which was published a few days after the politico article says that the patriot act was extended. If so, then the WP article is blatantly false. I recently had a fight with a friend over this, and we thought we'd cleared it up on WP until he found that article. Can anyone verify what the current status is? --Ashershow1_{talk•contribs} 00:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)