Talk:Race and intelligence

RfC on racial hereditarianism

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closing per WP:SNOW. Following substantial participation, there is a very strong (and near unanimous) consensus to affirm the result of the early 2020 RfC: the theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is enough of a minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus that it falls under Wikipedia's definition of a fringe theory. Editors overwhelmingly believed that the scientific consensus continues to support that outcome. It follows that any presentation of this theory in articles should comply with that guideline. There was some discussion on how this decision translates into formulations of prose. As there were no specific proposals to that end made in this discussion, that falls outside the scope of this RfC. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

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Is the following statement correct (vote "yes") or incorrect (vote "no")? The theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is enough of a minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus that it falls under Wikipedia's definition of a fringe theory. NightHeron (talk) 20:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

Several editors have suggested that last year's RfC on race and intelligence (see [11]) should be revisited. As the OP of that RfC, I'm fine with that, provided it's done with the EC-protection that this talk-page has. The wording of the above formulation is taken from the closing of last year's RfC. NightHeron (talk) 20:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• I'd rather there was more significant planning before this RfC was opened, though I guess opening it now means that a rush of fresh accounts can't extended confirmed status prior to the closure of the RfC. I don't see why we need another RfC when the result last time was pretty definitive once the SPA's had been discounted. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:48, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure. But from what's been going on at WP:RSN it was clear that the choice was between a straightforward, neutrally stated RfC that revisits last year's RfC, or else a complicated, tendentiously worded RfC at a non-EC-protected forum. Hopefully, this way it won't be such a time sink for all of us. NightHeron (talk) 21:48, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I do think that such a quick re-opening of an RfC, esp. when there wasn't clear consensus on what venue would be appropriate is... ill-advised for creating a solid consensus in the future. I think a FTN thread would have been better. —Wingedserif (talk) 22:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

The RfC at WP:RSN was closed on the grounds of improper venue, as well as non-neutral formulation. Meanwhile, several editors had commented on starting a new RfC elsewhere. One editor suggested FTN, and several editors, apparently including the closing admin, favored this talk-page. In any case, we don't need to go through an RfC on where to hold an RfC, I hope. NightHeron (talk) 22:32, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

The closing admin mentioned the talk page as an option, as well as NPOVN; their summary was not a mandate or a recommendation. This formulation of the RfC will not end the issue, as we can at best create WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. I think this was hasty, but here we are now. —Wingedserif (talk) 22:41, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

According to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, a local consensus is a consensus among a limited group of editors. I've just finished putting notifications of this RfC on the talk-pages of all editors (except for SPAs, IPs, and editors with edit-count less than 500) on both sides in last year's RfC, over 40 editors. I've also put notices at Talk:Scientific racism, Talk:Nations and IQ, Talk:Heritability of IQ, WP:RSN, and WP:FTN. I'd be happy to put notices wherever else you suggest, in particular, at any relevant WikiProjects you can think of. I agree that it's important to invite broad participation. NightHeron (talk) 23:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I will also note that the ongoing grumbling at RSN is going on against the advice of the closing admin, who stated: I would HIGHLY suggest you hold this discussion on the article talk page rather than here, which is what I stated in the closure I made above. [12] That seems pretty unambiguous to me. Generalrelative (talk) 23:36, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

The full, correct quote was I would HIGHLY suggest you hold this discussion on the article talk page rather than here, which is what I stated in the closure I made above, or at NPOVN as you noted. Please do not hold it here, immediately after the above discussion. I agree that the previous RfC was malformed and am glad to see that a wide range of editors will be notified. I was tbh suspicious of the RSN RfC deciding to not notify previously involved editors. —Wingedserif (talk) 23:53, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Aha, my apologies. I was looking at the original diff [13] not the amended comment [14]. Thanks for the correction! Generalrelative (talk) 23:56, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

No worries! I had to recheck because I was confused by the sentence structure the first time anyway. —Wingedserif (talk) 23:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Seems like an attempt to pre-empt an ongoing discussion at the RS noticeboard about a more carefully worded RFC. Seems invalid, so I won't vote. tickle me 01:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

At RSN, an opponent of last year's RfC started an RfC with a lengthy and highly partisan statement. After the ensuing discussion, in which several editors objected and called for a brief and neutral RfC, an uninvolved admin mercifully closed that RfC. Then another opponent of last year's RfC proposed a complicated, multi-tiered RfC statement that was also rejected not supported by most editors. Meanwhile, I and several other editors were arguing for a policy-compliant RfC to be started on this talk-page. There is no Wikipedia policy that says that we have to wait for the second long discussion at RSN to be closed before starting such an RfC. However, there is a Wikipedia policy that says that an RfC statement must be brief and neutral. NightHeron (talk) 09:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

The proposal for a new RfC at RSN was not "rejected by most editors" as you claim—that is a blatant falsehood. You are the only one who expressed opposition (and one other editor suggested that the discussion be held elsewhere). In contrast, numerous editors have expressed concerns about the validity of this RfC as being disruptive, hastily constructed, etc. As the OP of the new proposed RfC at RSN explained: The entire point of starting a new RFC was to address the issues of WP:RS and WP:V that have arisen over the past year. Your RFC question ignores those issues, and just rehashes the question from last year's RFC. An RFC that ignores those issues won't be able to resolve anything useful, no matter which way the outcome goes. Stonkaments (talk) 19:13, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

You and Alaexis were the only ones to support AndewNguyen's proposal, and Alaexis also supported the opening of this RfC (kindly thanked me for doing it). Jayron32, Guy, Aquillon, and I had objections. But you're right about my word choice: rejected is too strong, so I've changed it to not supported. NightHeron (talk) 19:55, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes per the clear consensus of the previous RfC, which I don't see the justification for revisiting. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:01, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes per the previous discussion, per the sources used to support the text in the article: The scientific consensus is that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups. and per the facts that the vast majority of sources and arguments used in the countless previous discussions to contest this have been that there is a genetic component, not that the scientific consensus is that there is a genetic component, and that those few sources which address the actual consensus provided have been of quite low quality. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:32, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes, definitively. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:37, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes No change in clear scientific consensus. We can't keep revisiting this nonsense every year. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:14, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. This is a careful and accurate statement of fact that summarises a complex question about as simply as we can manage in line with scientific accuracy. There's a lot of prior discussion about the specifics but it boils down to: IQ is not culturally neutral; evidence of a racial component to IQ is thoroughly confounded by that fact. It's also exactly the correct question when we consider the wider issue of long-term advocacy by proponents. Science says: wrong measure, also, no, because racism. That doesn't make every advocate of a racial component to intelligence a racist, but the racists sure as hell think it does, so we should be seriously careful about that. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:26, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes per the above. See this 2020 statement by a group of prominent scholars including biological anthropologists Agustín Fuentes of Princeton and Jonathan M. Marks of the University of North Carolina, which discusses the question of why we see so few actual geneticists publishing research on the topic of race and IQ: [W]hile it is true that most researchers in the area of human genetics and human biological diversity no longer allocate significant resources and time to the race/IQ discussion, and that moral concerns may play an important role in these decisions, an equally fundamental reason why researchers do not engage with the thesis is that empirical evidence shows that the whole idea itself is unintelligible and wrong-headed. [15] For anyone who is skeptical as to whether this view represents a true scientific consensus, I'd suggest running a 20-year search of "race and intelligence" at Nature and Science. You will find plenty that agrees with this 2019 Nature editorial titled "Intelligence research should not be held back by its past" (coordinated to comment upon a meta-analysis in Nature Genetics published on the same day): Historical measurements of skull volume and brain weight were done to advance claims of the racial superiority of white people. More recently, the (genuine but closing) gap between the average IQ scores of groups of black and white people in the United States has been falsely attributed to genetic differences between the races. [16] (see also [17], [18], [19] and [20]). But you will find nothing that affirmatively supports a genetic connection between race and intelligence. The most you will find are a couple which entertain the possibility that connections between cognitive abilities and race-like genetic clusters may be discovered in the future (see [21] and [22]). Even where the ethics of researching links between race and intelligence are defended ([23]), it is clearly stated that There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences. Generalrelative (talk) 22:32, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for providing sources. I am not sure that they support your conclusion. To take this Nature article as an example, the language they use is much more circumspect "There is broad consensus across the social and biological sciences that groups of humans typically referred to as races are not very different from one another. Two individuals from the same race could have more genetic variation between them than individuals from different races. Race is therefore not a particularly useful category to use when searching for the genetics of biological traits or even medical vulnerabilities, despite widespread assumptions." It is neither explicitly stated nor obviously follows logically from this that the opinion that there is some genetic component to the variation is fringe. Unless I missed something in the article. Alaexis_¿question? 06:05, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: It is neither explicitly stated nor obviously follows logically from this that the opinion that there is some genetic component to the variation is fringe. You are incorrect.

Consider this: everything we know about the genetic difference between different races boil down to a collection of traits, the combination of which is more or less unique to each race, even though none of those traits is unique to any ethnicity (a biologically meaningful term to describe ancestral lines). None of those traits have ever been shown to be related to brain structure.

So let's say a person is defined by 5 traits A-E, 3 of which are strongly hereditary and the other two are weakly hereditary, we might get a picture of a person that looks like this: A:1 B:7 C:2 D:9 E:5.

Now, we can say that traits A-C are strongly hereditary, and then define their race based on those. If a person has traits A:1 B:9 C:1, they're considered Black, whereas if they have traits A:9 B:1 C:7, they're considered white. That seems clear enough, until you ask about a person who has traits A:4 B:4 C:3, who's somewhere in the middle.

This is why these frequent, forceful statements about how biologically meaningless racial categorizations are undermine the claim that there's a genetic link between intelligence and race. But that's not the whole problem.

There's another issue in that, the only trait that we can clearly and positively associate with intelligence is E, such that a person with E:1 has a 30% chance of having an IQ less than 70, and a person with E:9 has a 10% chance of having an IQ greater than 130.

But there's a problem, in that there's this weird fact that people with D:3 have a 10% chance of having an IQ over 150, but people with all other D traits are perfectly normal. Oh yeah, and they can't find anyone with E:7 with an IQ over 110, even though people with E:6 and E:8 are over-represented in the 110+ IQ group.

That's the state of genetic research on intelligence right now. There's literally no evidence that there's any genetic link between race and intelligence, and there's good reason to believe that the two aren't even remotely related, as the genes involved don't seem to interact. And given the size of the differences measured between races, any genetic component that we did find evidence for is far more likely to be a simple artifact of the normal hereditary nature of intelligence (which is estimated to explain about 50% of an individual's IQ), as any amount which can be attributed to genetics which is less than the clear majority of the difference would be statistically meaningless; less than the expected difference between the same person taking the same IQ test (with the tasks randomized) on different days. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know enough about genetics to assess how close your toy example is to the actual state of the science. To the extent that I do know, your reasoning appears valid (except that I don't think IQ is a good measure of intelligence except maybe for low IQ range). The differences between races are indeed small compared to inter-personal or even same-person-at-different times variability. My point was that the source you provided does not say explicitly that this is a fringe theory. By way of analogy, now the scientific consensus is that the Universe is about 14 billion years old. If a scholar publishes an article arguing it's in fact 16 billion years old we would not automatically say it's a fringe view and would use normal notability guidelines to decide if and how to mention it.

Can you point to an article in a journal of the caliber of Nature/Science where it's written in a more explicit way? Not necessarily using the word fringe. Alaexis_¿question? 14:44, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: I think the statement by the editors of Nature, in an editorial paired with a huge meta-analysis on the genetics of intelligence, stating that attributing the black-white IQ gap to genetics is "false" is a pretty strong sign. In response to your initial comment, note that I provided those "see also" links for context on what you will find when you run a a 20-year search of "race and intelligence" at Nature and Science. You are responding to one of those, and they are not key to my argument. The key point is that real geneticists largely eschew the whole idea of a genetic link between race and intelligence as unintelligible and wrong-headed. I also wanted to keep my !vote as brief as possible, but if you'd like more sources which might persuade the persuadable, see "Why genetic IQ differences between 'races' are unlikely" by the geneticist Kevin Mitchell [24] and "Race, genetics and pseudoscience: an explainer" by the geneticists Ewan Birney, Jennifer Raff, Adam Rutherford and Aylwyn Scally: [25]. Neither of these are peer-reviewed publications, let alone published in Nature or Science, but they are both by respected subject-matter experts (especially Birney, who is a pretty big deal). Unlike the opinions of psychometricians as to what is likely genetic, the opinions of real geneticists should carry weight per e.g. WP:SELFPUB. Generalrelative (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so out of three sources you mentioned, there is one source that is indeed very direct (More recently, the (genuine but closing) gap between the average IQ scores of groups of black and white people in the United States has been falsely attributed to genetic differences between the races) and two that use a more measured language (While genetic variation may help to explain why one person is more intelligent than another, there are unlikely to be stable and systematic genetic differences that make one population more intelligent than the next, In reality for most traits, including IQ, it is not only unclear that genetic variation explains differences between populations, it is also unlikely. Alaexis_¿question? 16:14, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That seems like a rather selective reading. The piece by Birney et al., for example, states that claims about the genetic basis for population differences [in IQ], are not scientifically supported. They then go on to explain why it is also unlikely that such a basis will be discovered in the future. And in the end they make it very clear that the reason they need to explain these things at all is that they feel it is incumbent on them to counter a vocal fringe of race pseudoscience. Though they do not call out "hereditarian" figures like Rindermann and Lynn by name, it would be a stretch to read the entire piece and come away with any ambiguity as to whom they're referring to here. I'm tempted to quote at length, but really, the whole thing is not very long. I would encourage anyone who is skeptical about this issue to read it: [26] Generalrelative (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative You wouldn't find sentences like 'Earth is unlikely to be flat' or 'Fossil fuels are likely to contribute to the global warming', so it feels that it's less fringe-y. Alaexis_¿question? 06:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: A closer analogy would be to the claims that extraterrestrials have abducted humans, or that Bigfoot exists, or that there are humanoid forms of life on Mars. We can't say that science has proved that all are false. We can say that there is no scientific evidence for any of them and that it's unlikely that evidence for any of them will be found in the future.

It's sometimes hard or impossible for science to prove a negative. Thus, it's theoretically possible, though unlikely according to scientific consensus, that some day a barely detectable genetic link between the nebulous and ill-defined concept of race and the nebulous and ill-defined concept of intelligence will be found. As mentioned in an earlier discussion, one recent source pointed out that if such an unlikely event were to occur, it's just as likely that the advantage in intelligence would turn out to belong to people of African ancestry as to people of European ancestry. NightHeron (talk) 11:57, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

+1 to this. Generalrelative (talk) 14:54, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Quite frankly, you are dead wrong about how we would treat such a work in your hypothetical. We would (and should) treat it as a fringe view, and our general notability requirements would only determine whether we mention it at all.

In addition, you have been shown sources that explicitly state that the genetics view is unsupported by science, including some that go so far as to call it "wrong-headed". You've also had plenty of opportunity to examine the sources used in the article, one of which is a 1995 publication commissioned by the APA specifically to address the question of what the scientific consensus is, which reaffirms that that mainstream science sees the genetics view as unsupportable. At this point, arguing that you've seen no source which explicitly calls it "fringe" looks more like a semantics game than a reasonable objection. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:28, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes per Generalrelative, scientific consensus on this issue has only become clearer since we analyzed it last year. Levivich ^harass/_hound 22:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. The consensus of the RfC was clear and was nicely expressed by the closing administrator. The grounds for that consensus were solid, and nothing about them has grown weaker in the past year. --JBL (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. There have been no new sources provided to indicate that scientific consensus has changed since the time of the last RfC. —Wingedserif (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. I have followed research in this area for several years and there has been no change in the lack of seriously accepted evidence asserting a genetic cause for differences in intelligence between racial or ethnic groups among humans. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:49, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes I intend to expand upon this later, but we are assessing what the mainstream concensus of scientists is, rather than whatever one individually views to be correct. The number of statements affirming that the idea that the differences between IQ of different racial groups is not genetic in origin is overwhelming and firmly puts the "hereditarian" idea into fringe theory territory. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. It seems highly inappropriate that the editor rushed to start this RfC while there is discussion ongoing at RS/N about how best to word it, and where to hold it. The OP was well-aware of this discussion[27], and even acknowledged that "It would be bad form for me to be the OP, since I was the OP last year", but still chose to start the RfC here anyway. Stonkaments (talk) 22:57, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

  Exactly this - this RfC is not carefully crafted - it doesn't even present sources on either side, and it was rushed by an editor to try and push something through without due consideration. This is, quite simply, a POINTy RfC that cannot form any consensus for or against because it ignores the actual argument presented in the RSN and doesn't even try and summarize it. This should be closed as out of process as multiple editors expressed a desire to craft an RfC to present each side adequately so people can make an informed consensus. I'll also note that this editor has been doing some borderline canvassing to try and bring people to this discussion - and failed to mention that they opened this prematurely and out of process. This is disruptive. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 23:04, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I did not engage in canvassing, borderline or otherwise. As I explained above, I notified all EC-eligible editors on both sides of the debate, as well as relevant talk pages and noticeboards, and I would welcome any suggestions of additional places (such as WikiProjects) where a notification would be appropriate. NightHeron (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Why on earth would it be appropriate to presented the argument of the OP at the RSN RfC or try and summarize it? That RfC was improper precisely because it was tendentiously formulated (among other reasons discussed at length). Why would this RfC list sources in its question? You are, of course, welcome to discuss sources here, but the idea that this RfC is improper because it doesn't even present sources on either side is almost perfect in its wrongheadedness. Generalrelative (talk) 23:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Also: it was rushed by an editor to try and push something through without due consideration. Sounds like you must be a mind reader. That's gotta come in handy IRL, though we typically refrain from characterizing other editors' imagined motivations here. Generalrelative (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

And to Stonkaments' comment on "bad form": That's called changing one's mind upon reflection. [28] You might try it sometime. Generalrelative (talk) 23:15, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

No mind-reading; OP was very clear that their intention was to preempt the ongoing collaboration towards a new RfC on RSN: ...from what's been going on at WP:RSN it was clear that the choice was between a straightforward, neutrally stated RfC that revisits last year's RfC, or else a complicated, tendentiously worded RfC at a non-EC-protected forum...[29] Stonkaments (talk) 23:36, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I'm detecting a rather tendentious logical leap from the one to the other. But perhaps you have superior insight into the meaning of words or something. Generalrelative (talk) 23:40, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

WP:Call a spade a spade. Stonkaments (talk) 01:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That's exactly what Generalrelative just did. Jumping from from what's been going on [..] non-EC-protected forum to without due consideration is a tendentious logical leap, so he called it a tendentious logical leap. --Hob Gadling (talk) 02:14, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, the result of last year's RfC was solid, and nothing has come along in the interim to suggest that it needs to be revisited. XOR'easter (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes, Per Generalrelative's summary and the excellent sources already cited in the article in the section 'Research into possible genetic influences on test score differences'. If anyone evaluating this RFC is still uncertain about how this can be a fringe concept given that the heritability of IQ exists between individuals, This article by William Saletan, who has been on both sides of the issue, is a decent introduction to the problems inherent in making the leap from individual to group differences. - MrOllie (talk) 23:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - The consensus prior to about 1700 was that the universe gyrated around Earth.` Sure, Archimedes reported on Aristarchus's theory from 230 BC that Earth spins around the Sun; but during Copernicus' and Galileo's life, and in fact, long after their deaths in 1543 and 1642, their ideas were considered fringe by the bien pensant. So much so that both Tycho in 1587 and Kepler in 1609 published major works based on geocentrism. In fact, geocentrism was the "scientific consensus" so much so that in 1959 Arthur Koestler wrote that Copernicus was a coward for being reticent to publish his fringe ideas challenging geocentrism, which he had already developed by 1514, until the very year of his death. But hey, so what if a minority of subject matter experts have been bravely un-Copernican and have dared publish that there is a genetic component to intelligence? They are fringe and must be verboten as a legitimate debated subject by the bien pensant on Wikipedia! Burn the witches! E pur si muove, is all I can say. XavierItzm (talk) 23:41, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

We are not discussing whether there is a genetic component to intelligence. We are discussing whether the contention that observed differences in IQ test performance between racial groups have a genetic component is currently a fringe view. If you're confused as to why those are separate questions, please see Heritability of IQ or the piece cited by MrOllie above. Generalrelative (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@XavierItzm:, you do realize that you could take any theory currently considered fringe and make exactly the same argument about it, right? This logical fallacy even has a name: it's called the Galileo gambit. The French Wikipedia has a fuller article on it. Apaugasma (talk|contribs) 00:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Not only "could" you use the same argument for any other fringe theory, it probably has been used for every other fringe theory. When you cannot find a good reason for your position in one conflict, you talk about another conflict instead and claim that your position is somehow similar to the position that turned out to be right in that one; it is a form of red herring, avoiding the actual evidence. One can almost ignore all the Yes reasoning, look at the No reasoning desperately scraping the bottom of the barrel like that, and come to the conclusion that Yes is very likely the right answer. Almost. --Hob Gadling (talk) 01:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Kepler's 1609 published work Astronomia Nova was not based on geocentrism, and the RfC doesn't say what to change in the article.Peter Gulutzan (talk) 22:46, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes All my reasons have already been covered by others. HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. The only thing that has changed since the last such RfC is the names of the SPAs opposing it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 01:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Ugh. Such a landslide that I'm just going to play Devil's advocate. There are differences that are widely recognized, but they likely have more to to with "intelligence" than they do with race. If I design a test in English, people who only speak Spanish are quite likely to fail it. Intelligence is at best either an abstraction or a reification. In the abstraction, yes. In the reification, no. GMG^talk 02:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, you didn't do a good job as a devil's advocate. You did a great job spitting some facts, however, but you really need to work on that devil's advocacy. Damnit, GMG, I expected better of you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:02, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes with a caveat. The RfC as stated is true, because the various attempts to argue for such a link, mostly importantly that of Jensen, have fallen apart on closer inspection, and because the folk conception of race has been shown to rest on misconceptions. I don't think, though, that the stronger claim, that there is a consensus that there is no such link, is true. If you like, my reading of what consensus there is, is that it holds there is an absence of published evidence for such a link, not that there convincing evidence of absence of any such link. — Charles Stewart (talk) 06:23, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

  At some point, though, the absence of evidence, despite the diligent efforts of so many definitely-not-racists, becomes evidence of absence. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:13, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes The Climate change and Covid-19 are consensus, the Flat earth and the genetic link between race and intelligence are fringe. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:05, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. The arguments otherwise are invariably from a relatively small number of sources and their supporters, generally published in journals devoted to scientific racism. See eg. [30][31][32][33][34][35] - the last one is particularly relevant, since it directly discusses hereditarian efforts to claim their beliefs have more support than they have, going into detail on the deceptive tactics they use, why they do so, and how little support their beliefs actually enjoy in the scientific community. As the last source notes, most hereditarians, while trying to claim illusionary support by playing tricks such as narrowing the definition of who qualifies to only include hereditarians, simultaneously implicitly concede that their theories are fringe (hence their false narrative of oppression, which is needed to explain why it has continuously remained on the fringes despite decades of effort by dedicated, well-funded fringe journals devoted entirely to pushing them.) EDIT: One small thing I do want to add, however - the firm rejection of the Hereditarian argument as fringe does not necessarily mean that there is a scientific consensus that observed differences are therefore environmental in origin, as the article currently says. That is falling into a false dilemma which is often pushed by Hereditarian literature, as [36] points out. For the most part the modern rejection of Hereditairanism focuses a lot more on the fact that their racial categories are largely social and cultural in origin (and to lesser extent disputes over measures of intelligence, especially as they apply to such hazy social categories) rather than arguing, as Hereditarians sometimes try to falsely imply their opponents believe, that intelligence is not heritable at all. --Aquillion (talk) 08:26, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Just for clarification, earlier in the sentence you quote from in the article it's made clear that differences means differences in IQ test performance between racial groups, which is a totally separate issue from the differences between individuals. Hereditarians do sometimes claim that their opponents reject any link between genetics and individual variation, and that's untrue. NightHeron (talk) 21:42, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yesish I am not sure that (sorry for being a bit Platonic) that intelligence is sufficiently understood for us to say what it really even is. Different races do seem to react in different ways to different things, but that does not mean they are "less intelligent" rather that their intelligence is not the same kind of intelligence. Like a man who can fix your car, but cannot fix your body. Whether that is genetic or cultural however is not a given. So lean towards Yes.Slatersteven (talk) 08:34, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Slatersteven, the question being debated is not whether we as editors consider the theory to be or or not to be without merit, but only whether or not it we judge it to be a wp:fringe theory because there is a strong scientific consensus that has concluded that the theory is meritless pseudoscience. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
    • As I said I am unsure as to whether or not intelligence is so well defined that we can even draw any clear racial distinctions. But I am also aware that some (even in ethnic minority communities) have tried to argue that there are different kinds of intelligence. But (as I said) we do not really have any meaningful way of messing intelligence that does not have serious cultural issues. Now I have said we should treat it as a fringe theory, what more do you want?Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

While it's true that the only thing IQ measures is IQ, it's also true that IQ correlates rather strongly with a number of signifiers that are widely considered indicative of intelligence. IQ is not intelligence, but the two are well correlated.

That being said, your statements are correct, and most psychometricians agree that there are numerous different types of intelligence, some of which are exceedingly difficult to test (it's worth noting that IQ is comprised of tests intended to grade multiple types of intelligence, as well).

Your statement is, in fact, fully compatible with a "Yes" !vote, and not compatible with a "No" !vote. The scientific consensus, as I have come to understand it after following this subject for a number of years, is that intelligence is too difficult to rate in a repeatable and accurate way, and race too difficult to define in a biologically meaningful way to make any claims about a genetic link between the two. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:38, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That's definitely part of it: the absence of any agreed, objective, culturally neutral measure of intelligence, and of course the biological fact that race is very close to irrelevant in terms of the human genome, makes the question itself a pointless exercise. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes. Given that there's enough wiggle room in the definitions of race and intelligence that reasonable people can split a few hairs, unreasonable people will regularly attempt to drive a truck through it. I see no new evidence to challenge the conclusion of last year's RFC, and thus it should stand. Guettarda (talk) 16:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. "The theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is enough of a minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus that it falls under Wikipedia's definition of a fringe theory" including definitions outlined in Wikipedia's content guideline Wikipedia:Fringe theories#Spectrum of fringe theories. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:52, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes but No. It is correct, but that does mean it warrants inclusion in the article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone is suggesting we include that statement in the article. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That is fine, but then I am not really sure what the RfC is trying to achieve. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:09, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Over the course of the year, opponents of last year's RfC have raised objections both to the RfC itself and to the edits that were made after the RfC to remove false balance. Hopefully, some of them will explain this in the course of this RfC. Any editor who believes that something relevant in the sources has changed over the last year also could enter the discussion and explain what it is. The purpose of this RfC is to give them the opportunity to make their case and if, as I believe is likely, it turns out to be a very weak case, then last year's RfC will be reaffirmed, hopefully putting the matter to rest, at least for the near future. NightHeron (talk) 19:29, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• @Emir of Wikipedia (talk · contribs) Regardless of people's stated intentions, this will certainly result in the sentence "The theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is a fringe theory" being inserted on Wikipedia articles, in Wikipedia's voice, existing opposing scholarly articles notwithstanding. Enjoy. XavierItzm (talk) 19:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Possibly, but not necessarily. I’m happy (much happier than I was when I first encountered this article and its discussions in 2006) with “Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups, and that observed differences are therefore environmental in origin.” in the article’s lead, and with “The scientific consensus is that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind IQ differences between racial groups.” in the main body, further below. Your suggestion, that this sentence be included in the article, is premature, unless sources phrase just that. It’s a meta-comment, regarding these theories' due weight, editorially, in this article, not something that should be included. —Sluzzelin talk 19:52, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. But I believe that XavierItzm's intention was to cynically predict an undesirable outcome rather than to advocate for the inclusion of this statement. Generalrelative (talk) 20:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, there is indeed a fine line between WP:AGF and faux-naïf. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:07, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree (about the statement not going in the article). Another reason for not including that statement in the article is that fringe has a well-defined meaning in Wikipedia. In the outside world it's not so clear how such a word would be interpreted. In the article Climate change denial the word fringe is used only when attributed, never in wikivoice. I'd hope that the same goes for the R&I article. Note that at present the word fringe does not occur in the R&I article. NightHeron (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Well that is a different question to what the RfC claims to ask then. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:35, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Bad location for this RfC and Leaning no (Update: Very weakly leaning no). I have (as I recently expressed on another board) strong opposition to opening RfC's on extended-confirmed pages when we are seeking input from the community on topics of controversy. That being said, since the RfC is here and this has drawn significant comment anyway, I'll take part. It's not clear to me that it should be considered fringe when peer-reviewed publications continue to publish systematic reviews that reject the Scarr-Rowe hypothesis and question even if the Scarr-Rowe interaction exists; the systematic review suggests that the extent to which intelligence is hereditary does not vary by race. The review argues that while it is not always explicitly stated in the literature, by the same logic, the finding of similar heritabilities across advantaged/disadvantaged groups supports the genetic difference hypothesis. This appears to be the minority opinion, with the same review noting that Scarr-Rowe has general acceptance. However, the existence of the meta-analysis study (and additionally the studies listed therein) shows that the view is not so narrowly held that it qualifies for WP:FRINGE. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Lots of fringe and outright wrong stuff gets published in peer-reviewed journals, especially stuff that is easily to stastically fudge like psychology and biomed. This is why WP:MEDRS doesn't allow the citation of individual clinical trials. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

The Scarr-Rowe effect is literally but one of many proposed environmental factors. You could prove it definitively wrong tomorrow, and that would still not prove your case. In fact, it would barely even contribute to the case you're arguing here. In further fact, it is quite possible (likely, even) that a large number of the authors of those publications would agree with the stated consensus here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

MPants at work, Well, maybe not Emil Kirkegaard, who has recently been writing for a white supremecist magazine called the American Renaissance. - MrOllie (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Intelligence is the only "peer-reviewed" journal that will touch anything from Emil, mostly due to the fact that he can't even properly read a scientific work, let alone write one. Hell, the guy spent most of the 2000's self-publishing his shit because even before he was known to be about as useful and worthwhile as a half-eaten colostomy bag, he was utterly incompetent at doing science. Look him up on RationalWiki if you want to know more about why no-one should ever take him seriously, or take seriously anyone who does, but I don't recommend it if you've eaten recently, or are within punching range of anything that might break.

P.S. I hadn't checked that provided source, but was referring to hypothetical sources which Mikehawk might provide to show that there's academic pushback against the Scarr-Rowe effect. Now that I'm looking at it, this source is not that. I'll add it to the growing pile of sources which were blatantly misrepresented by the people citing them to argue this particular position. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:58, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I hadn't even picked up on that. Why in the ever living fuck would any remotely reputable journal publish anything written by Emil? I initially thought JzG's reaction to Intelligence at RSN was harsh, but I totally understand now. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:30, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: and @MPants at work: The authors of the provided source (linked by Mikehawk), in addition to Emil O. W. Kierkegaard, include Brian Pesta and John Fuerst, reviewers and contributors at the fringe journal OpenPsych ((https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPsych). It would seem to be an example of a product of the "walled garden" spoken of earlier. Skllagyook (talk) 22:52, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That's what a lot of people who are unfamiliar with the Race and Intelligence topic area don't understand. You'd automatically think that a journal published by Elsevier would be legit, but when you look under the surface you can see how murky it is. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm seeing a lot of pushback on the source on the basis of the author's external biases (which are worrying given the topic). At the same time, typically to get into a peer-reviewed journal, you need to go through a peer review process and the paper has to be accepted by editors, which if done rigorously would eliminate fabrication in the content of the journal article itself. Are there issues with the peer review in this Elsiever-published journal, in particular? I'm not super familiar with how the community has handled this journal in the past, though I had assumed it was a reliable journal due to its publisher's reputation. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:54, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Mikehawk10: Intelligence is a truly odd duck; most of us familiar with it treat it akin to WP:SELFPUB: if the author of an article an acknowledged expert, it's generally okay, but not ideal. If the author is a questionable source, it's no good. Stuff that advances scientific racism tends to sail right through their "peer review" process. To be fair, they do give a fair shake to stuff that contradicts their racist science, but they've already poisoned the well, so I, for one, don't consider their peer review process to have any weight when it comes to reliability.

And to be clear: Emil Kirkegaard is a straight-up White Supremacist, first and foremost. All of his "intelligence research" is done specifically to justify his racist beliefs. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

+1 to MPants's description of Intelligence. You can see their editorial board here: [37]. For the past five years the editor has been Richard J. Haier, who was a signatory to the infamous "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" letter back in 1994. The board consists of many other members of the hereditarian "walled garden" such as Heiner Rindermann, a contributor to the white-supremacist journal Mankind Quarterly, whose antics trying to fake a counter-consensus on race & intelligence are described quite well here: [38] (see Aquillion's !vote above).

And to respond to Mikehawk's point about fabrication in the content, the issue is not so much with the data being fake as with the interpretations of that data being fallacious or the standards of data collection being lax. Such methodological shortcomings are harder to call people out on or definitively prove than outright falsifying data, which is kind of the root of the issue here. Richard Lynn is the godfather of this strategy (his data was the basis for The Bell Curve) with later generations of hereditarians refining his approach. Generalrelative (talk) 02:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

That makes sense. I guess my bigger qualm is not whether the view is a minority (it is), but whether it is such a small minority view that it is WP:FRINGE. Sources like this seem to suggest the notion that there is an open debate on whether racial differences in intelligence will close, and sources like this at least seem to show that there is a substantial current of relevant researchers who are biological hereditarians in some capacity. My reading of sources is that it's a minority view that is not in line with a rough scientific consensus, but it's certainly a sizeable minority view and it's not clear to me that the debate is closed. I don't think that relegates it to being fringe, though I don't think that it's appropriate to present it on an equal weight with non-hereditarian views in articles where the two would be relevant. I'm not quite sure how to articulate an "it's almost fringe but isn't quite there with the current state of research" view except to say it like that, but that is where I think I am standing when I exclude results published in Mankind Quarterly and Intelligence. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 03:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I find the argument in that article unconvincing, but don't take my word for it: Here's a deconstruction of Edwards' critique, which the article you linked accepts uncritically. Or look to what some geneticists actually say about it in Genetics. The confidence with which the author of the article you linked picks a side seems undue, though I don't deny that there's still arguments going on. It's just arguments between the mainstream and a... well... fringe competitor. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:28, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm also not convinced by the argument in the article that attempts to persuade us that hereditarianism is correct (especially considering how race is often constructed owing to phenotypes and historical geography rather than genotypes, which calls into question the statistical method validity). That being said, I don't feel comfortable calling hereditarianism to be on the fringes based upon my own view of the source's statistical methods; it's clear that there is a prevailing view (hereditarianism is not true) and a sizeable minority view (hereditarianism is true), but it appears that the minority view is held widely enough by relevant scholars that I don't feel comfortable calling it fringe. It feels on the borderline to me, but if our job is to reflect what is written across scholarly sources owing to their relevant prevalence, then I don't think that this is something that is evidently fringe (though it is certainly a minority view). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

You're confusing two things: (1) genetic component in individual variation, which agrees with scientific consensus, and (2) genetic component in differences between races, which goes against scientific consensus - ©Nightheron, 10:30 5 May (below). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: I think you've misread Mikehawk, as his opening sentence is agreement with the mainstream about how human races are constructed, and the rest of his comment is simply expressing his own (perfectly valid) reading of the sources he's been exposed to. He and I are only apparently in disagreement about how prevalent the minority view is, and whether or not it's a small enough minority to consider it fringe. I, for one, am content at this point to leave Mike to his views, as he's justified them sufficiently that I'm not able to construct an argument to undermine them, even though I don't find them persuasive enough to change my mind on the subject. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:37, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@MPants at work: I am not sure I have. Hereditarianism still has its adherents and a logical though simplistic basis, which is why it is broadly considered outdated. A given person's IQ is likely to correlate with their parents' IQs, though to what extent that is a function of nature v nurture is off-topic here. The leap of faith (or, more accurately, prejudice) is to extrapolate from the particular to the general, to construct a myth called race and to attribute to it hereditarian concepts. Hereditarianism is a minority view but not a fringe view and Mikehawk is not totally off the wall in giving it credence. Unlike so-called racial hereditarianism, it does not start from an answer and then try to shoe-horn other analyses and cherry pick evidence to support it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with all that you said here, though I don't see how it applies to what Mikehawk said, unless you've misread him. That being said, I've no interest in starting another argument about that, so I won't push the matter. Mikehawk is, after all, better able to elucidate his own thoughts than I am, and it could be me that's misreading him. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:08, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I believe that MPants at work is reading me correctly here. I agree that there is a difference between individual genetic variation (which enjoys scientific consensus) vs group genetic variation (which gets a lot more dicey for the reasons that groupings in these sorts of studies do not generally appear to be done in a genotypic way, but than in a phenotypic way). Individual genetic variation in g doesn't logically demonstrate that groups that have historically had large environmental factors that affect intelligence. (Think of a moving average model where the means are the same but the immediately proximate terms are the same, and let the time series t represent generations of people born. The long-run mean between two groups can be the same and still have different current measurements, and if this particular model actually were to reflect the underlying truth, then it would allow for a rejection of Scarr-Rowe while also rejecting hereditarianism. This is all WP:OR, though, so I don't think it should hold water in this sort of discussion.)

My issues is more that, based off my reading of reliable sources, a very large minority of intelligence research that is reflected in reliable journals argues that either there is some hereditarian difference or that the question is open. I could provide my own analysis based off of what I think is true regarding logical claims made in papers (as I did in parentheses above) and what I think is statistically robust, but ultimately the call on whether acceptance of a hypothesis is fringe shouldn't involve my own analysis as an editor on the merits of the science. Instead, it should involve a reading of reliable and relevant academic sources to see how they provide coverage of the topic, and to reflect the coverage of the topic in a manner that gives due weight to each hypothesis in line with how the hypotheses are covered in reliable sources (and avoids the undue weight of describing hereditarianism as being equal footing with its negation owing to its status as a minority view). Again, hereditarianism is certainly a minority view, but I don't think it's quite so small of a minority view to be considered fringe (though it's certainly close).— Mikehawk10 (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

That was what I was driving at: the RFC is not about 'pure' hereditarianism (which we agree is a minority view but is not fringe); it is about racial hereditarianism, which is a whole other kettle of rotten fish. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:55, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@Mikehawk10: Like MPants I respect the nuanced reasoning behind your position even if I disagee. I will try one more approach before conceding that I can't persuade you though. What do you make of the fact that roughly 100% of racial hereditarians are psychologists rather than geneticists? If the question were, e.g. about the construct validity of IQ, psychologists would surely be the relevant experts we would look to when determining the scientific consensus. But when the issue hinges entirely on genetics, isn't it rather geneticists whom we should be consulting? You might know something I don't, but I've been trawling through the literature on this topic for the last year and I cannot point to a single racial hereditarian of the current generation with a university position as a geneticist or biological anthropologist.

I think the closest thing would be David Reich, who caused a stir by suggesting in a 2018 NY Times Op-Ed that it might be possible in the future to discover genetic causes behind racial differences in behavior, and drew a forceful rebuke in the form of an open letter signed by, among many others, geneticists Joseph L. Graves Jr. and Erika Hagelberg, biologists Anne Fausto-Sterling and Robert Pollack, and biological anthropologists Jonathan M. Marks, Agustín Fuentes and Alan H. Goodman. The signatories state: Reich’s claim that we need to prepare for genetic evidence of racial differences in behavior or health ignores the trajectory of modern genetics. For several decades billions of dollars have been spent trying to find such differences. The result has been a preponderance of negative findings despite intrepid efforts to collect DNA data on millions of individuals in the hope of finding even the tiniest signals of difference. [39] (In a follow-up, Reich clarified that, while he believes that very modest differences across human population in the genetic influences on behavior and cognition are to be expected [...] we do not yet have any idea about what the difference are. [40] So it's clear that even he is quite far removed from the racial hereditarian position that the black-white IQ gap is explained by a genetic advantage that white people have over black people.)

Marks and Fuentes, who both have backgrounds in genetics, were also signatories of the other letter I quoted above, which states that empirical evidence shows that the whole idea [of a genetic race-IQ connection] itself is unintelligible and wrong-headed and explains that this is a fundamental reason why most researchers in the area of human genetics and human biological diversity no longer allocate significant resources and time to the race/IQ discussion. [41] For more in this vein, see the two pieces I recommended to Alaexis above: "Why genetic IQ differences between 'races' are unlikely" by the geneticst Kevin Mitchell [42] and "Race, genetics and pseudoscience: an explainer" by the geneticists Ewan Birney, Jennifer Raff, Adam Rutherford and Aylwyn Scally. [43] As I mentioned above, the latter of these is rather emphatic, noting that claims about the genetic basis for population differences [in IQ] are not scientifically supported and stating that their motivation for writing is to counter a vocal fringe of race pseudoscience (my emphasis). Though they do not call out "hereditarian" psychometricians by name, it is clear from the context whom they're referring to here. And then there's that Nature editorial, which was coordinated to appear alongside a huge meta-analysis on the genetics of inteligence, which flat-out states that attributing the black-white IQ gap to genetics is "false" and characterizes it definitively as an idea which should be relegated to the past. [44]

I could go on but this is already quite lengthy. And I won't keep hammering this if you still disagree. I just think that what we're looking for when we say in the scientific consensus should be the relevant scientific consensus. Which is why I think it's important to note that, while racial hereditarianism is a minority view among psychometricians today, it appears to be a truly negligable view among geneticists. Generalrelative (talk) 03:22, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the long and well-thought out reply. You definitely bring up a point that I had not been responding to well, notably that the sources that tend to hold some sort of racial hereditarianism tend to have a background in psychology or psychometrics rather than genetics. And, as I continue to pour through google scholar, the only other sources I can find that hold some form of racial herediatrianism are indeed written by psychologists. I'm torn a bit, since psychometricians seem to be the right field for making claims about intelligence while not necessarily having expertise in specific genetic mechanisms, while geneticists also don't necessarily have experience in psychometry. The claim falls at the intersection of the two fields, and it appears to be extremely widely rejected in one of the two fields while it is accepted by a large minority in the other. I'm also seeing some works that refer to Intelligence as a "mainstream" journal even when attacking it for its choice to publish certain studies on race and intelligence, so I'm really stuck here on how to evaluate it in a WP:USEBYOTHERS context. It feels odd to call this particular form of hereditarianism fringe from a standpoint of the publications in the field of psychometrics. From the standpoint of genetics it seems simple and clear that it's fringe. The only way around this would be for there to be some non-genetic thing that would provide for a mechanism of racial hereditarianism, and I haven't seen any proposed. At the same time, we see psychologists (and even sociologists) use genetics more and more within their respective fields, and this practice seems to be accepted as generally fine when we aren't speaking in a racial context (which brings into the discussions a context of genes not aligning well with race writ large). This is all to say, I think I'm not confident that the answer is a clear "it's fringe" but also I'm feeling less and less that this is a large enough minority view across the relevant fields that it isn't fringe. I still very weakly lean no, largely owing to the psychometriticians view on it, but it's right up against the threshold for me.— Mikehawk10 (talk) 21:06, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough! I very much appreciate your thoughtful engagement. Generalrelative (talk) 22:39, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes Per reasons already laid out by several users here. Skllagyook (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
• comment I'm not sure the article should even exist, positing false premises as a legitimate 'debate', it would be akin to us having an article on the something like, hmmm … the Jewish question? ~ cygnis insignis 22:53, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

There was a long AfD debate just over a year ago, see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Race_and_intelligence_(4th_nomination), which closed as keep. I agree that it is a notable topic though, and hopefully with ECP this article can be substantially improved. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Ta for the link. I see ways greatly improving this article, rather than a rejoinder to those who believe in, or profit from, doubt-mongering, and the other one about an earnest "debate" that got a bit out of hand. I won't though, trying to remember that these talk pages and their article are shit museums, you know, look but don't touch. ~ cygnis insignis 00:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I didn't get far before seeing there is an article History of the race and intelligence controversy. Thanks again. ~ cygnis insignis 00:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes Per previous RfC. There's no new evidence that would challenge the reasoning behind that consensus. –dlthewave ☎ 02:34, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
• No, the exclusion is overstated. Avoiding the political and just speaking to science, consensus, and RFC wording. The line seems not scientifically correct as stated, not supported by evidence of a scientific consensus, and does not seem to reflect the prior RFC and recent concerns. Think it needs to look for stating a limited inclusion.

Scientifically, my limited perception is scientists generally think it is Nature *and* Nurture, that genetics *is* a factor but disapprove of the extremes of Hereditarian Determinism or Societal Determinism and allows for individual cases to vary outside either influence as just not deterministic or well understood. So to me it seems FRINGE to totally *not* allow mention as it would be FRINGE where it portrays heredity as the sole or dominant determinant.

There really doesn’t seem evidence of scientific consensus provided here in the form of multiple scientific bodies making official statements of scientific fact. Criticisms for some works or some non-science misuse sure - but not more. I would tend more to see that broad and vaguely phrased statements of the phrasing shown above are not the style for scientific bodies. Specific bits about a specific measure such as GCSE results are more amenable to a study.

The prior RFC ... whichever of the threads I followed ... did not seem to use the phrasing above. And I am not seeing really neutral statements of science and positions here. That seems to reflect it has been brought up repeatedly.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

You're confusing two things: (1) genetic component in individual variation, which agrees with scientific consensus, and (2) genetic component in differences between races, which goes against scientific consensus. Also, does not seem to reflect the prior RFC makes no sense. The wording is taken verbatim from the close of last year's RfC.NightHeron (talk) 10:30, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Nope, you’re not seeing the contradicting there. By stating (1) you seem to be saying a link to genetics does exist is the consensus and that is inconsistent with the phrasing of RFC here that such is fringe. The RFC as stated simply goes too far. About hereditarian determinism extreme would be one thing but simply “a link” I believe is scientifically accepted. I did not see the phrasing of this RFC at the prior discussion closes, but I may have missed it in all that, please link to where you think it says those words verbatim. And again, I do not cites to statements by multiple scientific bodies as evidence that an actual “scientific consensus” is shown, so I think that claim is also simply overstating things, and I am dubious that scientific bodies would deal in broad statements on vague items like “race”. Simple links could prove the case, lack of such evidence leaves it unsupported. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:00, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron is right, you are confusing 1 (individual variation) with 2 (differences between races). The RfC is about 2. There is no point in explaining it any further, since you did not take the time to try to acknowledge, let alone understand, the difference in the first place. This is WP:CIR territory. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Again, show me the links to support the way the RFC is phrased and I think lack of links leaves it gone too far. This is strongly and vaguely phrased that “theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence” has “minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus” calling for a strong LABEL judgement of FRINGE. I think there needs to be limited and precise phrasing of what “scientific consensus” is or a strong LABEL, that the combination of claims and banning should require strong support, and feel this phrasing is actually misrepresenting scientific views. My general impression is the scientific views are that both nature and nurture are influences rather than deterministic, plus that ‘intelligence’ and ‘race’ are vague societal and not scientifically used phrasings — that studies make use of more precise items in more limited ways. A response back about missing a distinction is contradicting against a broad and strong RFC statement, and is still showing a lack of a RS scientific body statement. I think a narrower exclusion about science for hereditarian determinism is doable, or about both terms “race” and “intelligence” being not scientifically correct. Instead a claim science has consensus using those terms seems outside where science actually is, plus the call for judgement is asking a lot on no attached support. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 11:54, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes Current tests for measuring intelligence lack validity, because they measure test taking skills and "impress the professor" skills instead of actual intelligence which is vastly broader than measuring such superficial skills. "Race" is a powerful sociopolitical notion but not a valid scientific concept. The idea that people of Norwegian ancestry or Russian ancestry or Greek ancestry or Spanish ancestry are all "White" to be lumped together, and those of Nigerian ancestry or Ethiopian ancestry or Sudanese ancestry or Zulu ancestry are all "Black" to be lumped together is an utterly unscientific concept based only on skin color. This bizarre concept is spurious but deeply rooted in U.S. culture because the early history of that country was based on enslaving and dehumanizing and torturing people for considerable profit based only on the darkness of their skin. Other cultures engaged in similar dehumanization for similarly spurious reasons. So now we have communities subjected to brutal and ugly discrimination, and a coterie of fake academics who build dubious careers spreading the hate. These people thrive on arguing that the darker a person's skin is, the stupider they are. The entire "race and intelligence" construct is illegitimate and repulsive, and must be rejected by Wikipedia editors. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:24, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

you seem to be saying we should avvoid areas because they are controversial. As I understand our purpose, it's pretty much the opposite--the proposition that there is a connection has been extensively discussed both in the past and the present, and this means that it's appropriate to cover here. If t at either or both terms are ill-defined, that's no different from most of the rest of social science. Whether or not current test for intelligence lack value is a matter for discussion, based on the sources, not rejection. They seem to have some value by your own statement: they predict success in the traditional school system. I think actual studies nowadays use somewhat more precise definitions. That race depends only on skin color is outmoded, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that literally, but uses it as a shorthand, (though it may have been seriously used as a plain fact in the past--and is still used this way in the US and elsewhere today). "black" is not literally a race, but in the current discourse it normally means Afro-Americans. (I think it means other things elsewhere) But race almost certainly has a number of more complicated meanings, and they needs discussion.. In both cases I don't mean discussion by us. That's not what we're here for--it means presentation of the various views in the past and continuing. Having readthem, he reader can decide. Not having read them the reader is either left in ignorance that there ever was a controversy, or--much more likely in the present world, unfortunately,--left to rely upon their prior prejudices.

Most academics think that a substantial number of those in other fields are talking through their hats--it's a cliché dating back to Plato. Most non-academics, at least in the US, seem to think that all academics are doing that. I don't think I want to make that sort of judgment, and I do not see on what basis you do. What is correct, from the point of view of science, morality, or social policy, is something that neither you, or me, or any of us individually or collective are entitled to determine here. None of us writes as experts in any of these fields. What we do have the right and obligation is to report accurately on what others have said. If you should be an expert, you should write instead in a peer-reviewed venue. Hee, all you can rightfully do is give the opinion of others, without judging them.

Speaking at a admittedly more personal level, I assume that you, and I, and essentially everyone here, hates prejudice based on "racial" or other grounds. If we do, what are we to do about it here? What we can do is only give information, and report what at various times has passed for information--and misinformation. . Then those of us who wish to take action, as I suppose many of us do, and the much greater number of people in the world outside WP who want to do also, will have knowledge they can use. They don't need only knowledge about their already formed opinions; if they don't know what the uninformed think, they are not likely to make much of an impression on them. Even more bluntly, if they do not even admit that there is an opposition, that there are in fact racists, they're setting themselves up to be victims.

Prejudice in favor of justice is a good thing. It is only meaningful if it also talks about injustice. DGG ( talk ) 08:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think Jim is arguing that we should avoid this because it's controversial. I read his comment as saying that we should not promote this because it's racist. That's different. We document, without endorsing, white supremacy, neo-Nazism and all manner of other nonsense. This is no different. This discussion has been going on here for over a decade, and the superficial controversy is in fact sustained by a tiny number of highly motivated advocates who flatly refuse to accept any consensus that goes against them.

Wikipedia should not "teach the controversy" in areas like this, where a small self-referential group deliberately create an appearance of scholarly endeavour, in effective isolation from mainstream thought. It's like the studies purporting to find out how homeopathy works, when the consensus is that it doesn't, and can't, and there's no reason to suppose it should. Race is a bogus concept, and there's no objective culturally neutral way of measuring intelligence, so piling up studies of non-neutral measures based on the assumption that race is a thing, meets the definition of pseudoscience.

Added to that, the principal motivation underlying its promotion and amplification is racism. It's not a coincidence that the most disruptive presence on this article is a neo-Nazi. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

DGG, by no means am I saying that Wikipedia should avoid the controversy. I was responding to a specific proposition: "The theory that a genetic link exists between race and intelligence is enough of a minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus that it falls under Wikipedia's definition of a fringe theory." I answered "yes" because I believe that it is a fringe theory. I then tried, briefly, to explain why. Nothing at all about avoiding controversy. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:03, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree it is presently a minority view. But your argument above seems to be saying that the reason it is fringe is because you think it wrong. And the reasons you think it wrong seem to be based upon long outdated versions. In general, people who want WP to reflect their own judgment either have coi, which does not apply here, or else bias. The more one is committed , the stronger the likelihood of bias. I recognize that this applies to myself also, so I do not judge views I oppose as fringe because I oppose them. DGG ( talk ) 02:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm very pleased to see this statement, the elephant in the room is post-colonial societies and the mechanisms that maintain hegemony: South Africa, Australia, the United States (in no particular order). Racism permeates society on every level, received wisdom impressed on the psyche before a child can formulate a sentence. ~ cygnis insignis 14:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, based on the previous Rfc discussions. Idealigic (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. You can argue it's not a fringe theory based on how ordinary people use the phrase "fringe". Many people of varying political persuasions believe this, and there is certainly evidence that supports it; why are there more Jews and Asians at Harvard, and fewer Blacks and Latinos? The actual scientific research points out problems with that argument; there are cultural and environmental factors to consider as well, you can't assess average IQ based on outliers, and most world-wide IQ studies are too problematic to even consider. I'm not confident you can reliably measure a 10 point IQ difference between individuals, though a 50 point difference is certainly meaningful. I would not go so far as to say that there is evidence that "racial hereditarianism" is false; however, the claims that this theory is proven true (as opposed to being something that is unclear) is clearly fringe by Wikipedia's definition. Not one participant has presented evidence in support of the claim; even the book The Bell Curve does not claim that such a link is proven. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

But the correctnes of the theory is not for us to decide. Myself I personally don't like to rely on staaticical evidence; I want biochemically demonstrable mechanisms. Just as theory must be proven by observations, observations by themselves only make sense when there is theory behind them, to show that they're not mere correlation. I don't know what will be found in the future, so the only safe course is to leave the question open. DGG ( talk ) 02:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. Yes, claiming that a direct "genetic link exists between race and intelligence" (as in the RfC) would be incorrect. If that is what specific authors say (I am not sure), then their work would be "fringe". But one should be careful here. For example, studing the genetic differences among ethnic groups] would be very much mainstream. The importance of Human genetic variation, including chromosome abnormalities as an extreme example, in definining human phenotype (including mental capabilities), is also undeniable. My very best wishes (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

  My very best wishes, of course. There are a lot of studies of heritability for example among Ashkenazi people (e.g. Tay–Sachs disease) and African-Americans (sickle-cell anaemia). The issue is narrowly one of the study of "intelligence", however that might be measured, and "race", whatever that might mean, and I hope there is no suggestion that it would be interpreted any more broadly than that. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I am just saying there is nothing wrong with studies of Human intelligence, Human genetics, Human evolutionary genetics or even Genetics of human intelligence. I also think this page and Race and genetics are well written, and do not see any point in conductiong this RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 16:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

My very best wishes, the RfC is required because a handful of highly motivated advocates will not accept a consensus that goes against them. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@JzG and My very best wishes: No, this RfC was opened in order to preempt and disrupt the formulation of a more productive RfC―discussion of which was ongoing at RSN prior to this RfC being started. A productive RfC would have actually addressed the pertinent issues (namely sources potentially being excluded from the article, and claims that arguably fail WP:VERIFIABILITY), rather than wasting everyone's time reconfirming last year's RfC. Stonkaments (talk) 17:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Stonkaments: in order to is speculating about the motivations of other editors, it is also the opposite of WP:AGF and wasting everyone's time. --Rsk6400 (talk) 17:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, false. There was no RfC at RSN. It was not formatted as an RfC (it did not pose a short and neutral question) and it was a trojan horse, pretending that the question of what weight to give fringe sources was actually about their reliability.

Analogy: There are papers in superficially reliable sources advancing the idea of excited delirium, a condition that only ever seems to be diagnosed in the death of people being physically restrained by cops. Mainly (I know you'll be socked) Black dudes. The mainstream medical profession does not accept that it is a thing. It doesn't help that it has its origins in a diagnosis made by a white pathologist in a series of deaths of Black prostitutes, who later turned out to have been suffocated by a serial killer.

Same here. A small walled garden of self-referential researchers writing papers that are referenced only by other believers. This is not a WP:RS question, it's a WP:UNDUE question. So this RfC is exactly on point. First, is it actually a fringe view; and if it is, second, how do we represent it. That's the right way to do it.

ECP is also necessary for reasons that are blindingly obvious. At least three new socks of permabanned neo-Nazi troll Mikemikev have been blocked this week around exactly this topic. Guy (help! - typo?) 18:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Please read more carefully; I said there was ongoing discussion about the formulation of a more productive RfC (found here, which you closed, coincidentally), not that there was another RfC ongoing. The questions surrounding sourcing and verifiability have been at the crux of many recent debates on this article's talk page, and this RfC does nothing to address them.

And OP was very clear about their intentions to preempt that proposal by opening the RfC here[45]. Stonkaments (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Guy's points also apply to the post-close RSN discussion. The possibility of "sources being potentially excluded" is not a surprising consequence of finding a theory to be fringe. I challenge you to find a single Yes !voter that doesn't expect that sources promoting the fringe view will be mostly excluded from Wikipedia. If you feel the !voters are uninformed, you are welcome to paste in the big list of sources from the pseudo-RFC. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, why would there need to be ongoing discussion around formulation of an RfC, when this is the first step, and any RfC will necessarily depend on the outcome of this. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Why would we want to formulate a constructive RfC that could actually address the recent issues on this article, rather than simply rehash the RfC from last year which won't solve anything? Seriously? Stonkaments (talk) 15:43, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The RfC last year solved a lot, allowing the editors who wished to bring the article into accordance with the mainstream view to do so. Recently problematic and/or single-purpose editors have re-initiated attempts to move the article away from the mainstream view, and rehashing the last RfC will almost certainly solve that problem. Perhaps what you mean is that it is unlikely to produce an outcome you desire, but that's a rather different thing. (If there really is a fundamental issue not addressed by this RfC, then this RfC does not prevent someone from opening a proper RfC to address it.) --JBL (talk) 17:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, why would you assume that this systematic approach is not that? First: is it fringe (current indication is yes); second, how do we represent the fringe. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

In case anyone here missed it, AndewNguyen has initiated yet another RfC, this one at NPOVN. They even quoted JBL's comment above to justify it (If there really is a fundamental issue not addressed by this RfC, then, this RfC does not prevent someone from opening a proper RfC to address it). Seems like it would've been nice to get this one closed first, but in any case I thought y'all might like to know. Generalrelative (talk) 19:28, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

As I noted below, AndewNguyen's RfC statement is tendentious in the extreme. NightHeron (talk) 19:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

In any case it's been preemptively closed. Generalrelative (talk) 20:01, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I would like to copy here the comment I made there (after closure): Because it is implied in the above that I endorse opening this RfC, I would like to observe that the implication is totally dishonest; that this RfC is obviously tendentious; and that the closure is appropriate. --JBL (talk) 20:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

• Well, I am just not sure what the consequences of admittting the theory is fringe would be. Per WP:FRINGE, Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is., and so on. Yes, sure, but I think it is already described as such on our pages. Simply following WP:NPOV produces an appropriate description of this and other similar subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes the article currently describes racial hereditarianism in a way that is consistent with WP:FRINGE. This RfC demonstrates the community support enjoyed by those of us who have been laboring –– under heavy opposition and a near-constant rain of personal attacks –– to keep it that way. That's why it's important. Sure, certain editors are likely to continue claiming that the consensus is ideologically driven [46] and that its defenders simply can't handle the truth [47], but this RfC makes it clear at least that we are not alone. Generalrelative (talk) 19:20, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

+1 to this. I'd also like to add that you've made the point multiple times that there isn't any appeciable support for this theory from geneticists, and in fact, geneticists and anthropologists frequently compare this claim to such classic pseudosciences as creationism and climate change denial. That point has been thoroughly ignored by those accusing us of being ideologically driven. Furthermore, the claim higher up on this very talk page that the Mackintosh 1998 source doesn't support the article's claim about the consensus has become laughable since I dug up my old copy of Mackintosh 1998. If I were to describe the tone of that textbook when it discusses the notion of a genetic link between intelligence and race, I'd have to go with "disgusted". ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: It might be instructive to compare this old version of the page: it predates the first RfC, and if you look at the editing of the article since then what you see is that opponents of the current RfC preferred something like that version, while the proponents of the RfC prefer something like the current version. The "yes" view in this RfC is essentially an endorsement of the status quo. --JBL (talk) 20:10, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, theories that link race, as commonly understood, with intelligence are fringe theories. Intelligence is known to have a large heritable component, and so is heritable within groups. Efforts to establish a linkage across groups, especially across groups as large as those normally considered racial, have either been sloppy, or have been affected by pre-existing racial discrimination, or have had fraudulent aspects. The circumstances under which this RFC has been rushed out to the Wikipedia community seem also to be affected by an ulterior, possibly racist agenda. Theories that link race to intelligence are fringe theories. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: The circumstances under which this RFC has been rushed out to the Wikipedia community seem also to be affected by an ulterior, possibly racist agenda. For context you might want to see the tendentiously worded RfC that was launched last week on RSN. I would agree with your characterization if it were applied to that one. Note the closing admin's statement: Some have suggested starting a properly formatted, neutrally worded RFC on the article talk page instead. NightHeron, who implemented this suggestion, has been a truly stalwart defender of the view you (and so many others here) have expressed. Generalrelative (talk) 16:30, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Comment to User:Generalrelative - Yes. I may have been imprecise in my wording. I had seen the version of the RFC at RSN, and I wasn't adequately distinguishing between the two RFCs. The topic was rushed out to the community for racist reasons. This version of the RFC, by User:NightHeron, was then moved out to the community in a hurry in order to squash the offending prior RFC. An RFC is a content forum, and we are not discussing whether to topic-ban the original proponent. My language was sloppy as to who I was criticizing. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Thanks for clarifying. More precisely, the poorly formatted RfC started by Ferahgo had already been closed before I started this RfC, but AndewNguyen had proposed starting a differently worded RfC that still was not either brief or neutral. The no-!voters on last year's RfC also wanted to hold the RfC on a non-EC-protected site, which in practice would guarantee the participation of SPAs and socks. Although AndewNguyen got little support for their proposal, it was leading to another long discussion on the wrong venue (RSN), and the no-!voters seemed determined to start a tendentious RfC one way or another. I (after consulting with Generalrelative on our user talk pages) decided to start this neutrally worded, EC-protected RfC before they started their tendentious one. NightHeron (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes. We've been over this many times before. The short version is that some primary research papers purport to show very narrow findings of heritabilty of minor but quite variable skews in certain aspects of cognition. These are primary sources. Even if validated later, they would translate neither to "intelligence", which doesn't really have a firm definition in the first place, nor to "race", which doesn't either. See also WP:R&E. WP cannot support any such notion that "intelligence" is heritable much less a "racial" characteristic unless an overwhelming preponderance of highest-quality secondary sources in the related fields (i.e. systematic reviews) came to this conclusion. This is not SpeculationPedia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. As far as I can tell, the idea that race itself is a genetic category (rather than a social category based on selective grouping of biological traits) is itself widely considered fringe, so the idea that race and intelligence are genetically linked is necessarily also fringe. Loki (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. "Race" is an ill-defined and scientifically worthless concept, and only survives as a group-identity token in strongly segregated societies (e.g. the United States). Grafting research out of such an objectively meaningless concept is per se fringe, and from its very beginning, "Race-and-intelligence"-related research has been linked to suprematist ideologies. It's as fringe as research about "Infidels and fornication", an article which per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is overdue after every AfD of "Race and intelligence" has failed. –Austronesier (talk) 18:52, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
• Yes Theories on the genetic link between race and intelligence are a minority viewpoint in the scientific consensus that they fall under Wikipedia's definition of a fringe theory. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 05:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
• Please note: AndewNguyen just started an RfC at NPOV [48] that essentially repeats the one that was closed last week as improperly formatted and non-neutral. Namely, AndewNguyen's RfC statement asks editors to read Ferahgo's summary of the issues and then vote. This seems to be a blatant violation of the neutrality requirement for RfC statements. This is the third time in two weeks that either Ferahgo or AndewNguyen has tried this stunt. Am I being too harsh in saying that this conduct is disruptive? NightHeron (talk) 19:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I definitely agree, though I'd suggest that we should be dicussing conduct issues elsewhere than on the article talk page. In any case, now that today's RfC attempt has been preemptively closed, we can at least hope that everyone will take this as an opportuity to drop the stick and move on. Generalrelative (talk) 20:59, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

• Yes - And thanks to Generalrelative for highlighting some sources. Fringe: IQ is an accurate measurement of (latent) intelligence, "human race" is an objective biological concept (other than Homo Sapiens), average group IQ results are due to heredity/genetics. Non-fringe: IQ is a useful metric, extant humans are all Homo Sapiens with minor variation, "human race" as discussed here is a human concept, average group IQ can vary and tends to change over time especially when general health changes with the Flynn effect pointing at evidence for environmental factors playing an important role, genetics may play a small individual role in IQ scores, there is more individual variation than group variation. There is indeed a scientific consensus that it is not useful to seriously consider the falsified hypothesis that heredity and genetics could play a major role in group IQ score variation in extant humans. —PaleoNeonate – 07:59, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

references
References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fixing "harvtxt error"

Does anyone here know how to fix the "harvtxt error" message that appears after each instance of the inline citation Nisbett et al. (2012a)? I can't figure it out. Thanks y'all, Generalrelative (talk) 20:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

It's because the same citation template is repeated in the article in two different places. I will try to fix it. (There's also a second example, involving Dickens & Flynn 2006.) --JBL (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Generalrelative (talk) 21:57, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I believe I have succeeded, but please double-check that I haven't screwed anything up. (There are many more instances of duplicative referencing, but no others that conflict with how sfn and the harv templates figure out what paper is being referenced.) --JBL (talk) 21:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Generalrelative (talk) 22:29, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Nicholas Wade

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Nicholas Wade. Generalrelative (talk) 15:08, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

There is now a formal RfC at this talk page: Talk:Nicholas Wade#RfC about suggested statement. You are invited to participate. Generalrelative (talk) 00:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

FYI FAQ

To all participating here: I've started work on a potential FYI for this talk page at User:MjolnirPants/RnI FYI. I'd like to know what everyone thinks and invite you all to suggest changes. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The FYI has been through a few rounds of edits, along with a bit of discussion about them, and I believe it is ready for inclusion here. Would love to hear from others about it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:17, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

After another few rounds of editing, the FAQ is looking better than ever. I intend to add it to this page very soon. If anyone believes discussion would be helpful, then now is the time to get it going. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• I've added the FAQ, as the latest round of changes has been pretty minor, and the FAQ appears to be in good shape, well-sourced and highly informative as it stands. Note, I had to manually copy it, as there was an existing, unfinished and unused FAQ here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you! I have a few additional points:

• I'd suggest that the question What do other scientists have to say about the question of a genetic link between race and intelligence? should either be eliminated or substantially altered. Not all sources (including those we reference in the FAQ) agree that the question is fundamentally unintelligible. Many think that such a link is indeed possible but highly unlikely to exist. And since the current version of the FAQ is visually quite cluttered, we might want to err on the side of fewer items.
• I'd suggest that What is the evidence for a genetic link between race and intelligence? could be rephrased to make it clear without clicking through that there is no such evidence (or we could consider cutting this question altogether). Otherwise it appears to contradict the premise of the first question.
• I'd suggest that What is the current state of the science on a link between intelligence and race? can be eliminated to avoid clutter, since it simply directs the reader to read the article.

Generalrelative (talk) 14:51, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Note that I've gone ahead with my first suggestion here, as well as altered the question substantially to read Isn't this just political correctness? Happy to be reverted and discuss if others disagree with these changes! Generalrelative (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Also: upon reflection I wonder if we really need three Q&As on "is race really socially constructed?" These are well written but I wonder if they represent a bit of a tangent in this context. Perhaps we can just direct skeptics to the main article Race (human categorization) and to the essay WP:Race and ethnicity? Just a thought. Generalrelative (talk) 17:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

They speak to the fundamentals of the issue: people who assert this genetic link invariably assert a biological origin to racial classifications, and deny the well-proven social origin. I mean, the question of a genetic link between race and IQ is "unintelligible" precisely because of the nature of human racial differences as nothing more than a loose and inconsistent collection of unrelated traits.

As for the other stuff you mentioned: Regarding your first point and the edits you made, I approve. I just addressed your second point with an edit. I'm agnostic on your third point. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:08, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with finishing with an encouragement to go read the article and judge for yourself. I think it should stand. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Cool, thanks to you both! Generalrelative (talk) 18:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

The FAQ is really shaping up well. I have questions about two of the Q-and-As:

• The answer to Q7 is very long. The first paragraph is hard to follow ("clear evidence for selective pressure", "dedicated genetic module...that can be acted on independently by natural selection...often negatively" etc.) and does not explain what the fallacy is. Perhaps after the first sentence we could put in: "A quick explanation of this fallacy is given in the last paragraph of the "Heritability within and between groups" section of the article and the accompanying picture." I'd suggest removing the rest of this paragraph after the first sentence, but keeping the block quote, which is clearly written.
• I also wonder if the 6th bullet-point in the 4th-to-last question is really needed. (In such surveys, the average percentage of the measured delta (about 15 points between the highest average racial score and the lowest average racial score) estimated to be explained by genetics is 1-5%; less than half the delta expected between two identical IQ tests taken by the same person on different days. In other words: statistically meaningless.) First, it uses technical language "measured delta". Second, it's not clear what average is being taken. Third, I'm not sure that it's accurate. Hunt estimated 3%, and he was among the relatively moderate members of the ISIR crowd. Fourth, if the IQ tests taken by the same person were identical, of course one would expect performance the second time to be significantly better than the first time ("practice makes perfect"). Fifth, given all the problems with the surveys, why should anyone care about this statistic? NightHeron (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

  NightHeron, First, it uses technical language "measured delta". Good point. I agree on rewording this.

  Second, it's not clear what average is being taken. Also a good point.

  Third, I'm not sure that it's accurate. Hunt estimated 3%, and he was among the relatively moderate members of the ISIR crowd. Well, 3% is pretty close to the median of 1-5%. I'm not sure what you mean, here. I've seen 1% and 5% given, though Hunt is the only one who's opinion has been brought up on WP about it, that I've seen. If you think we should quote Hunt on this, I'm fine with that.

  Fourth, if the IQ tests taken by the same person were identical, of course one would expect performance the second time to be significantly better than the first time ("practice makes perfect"). This needs clarification: when giving a person an IQ test repeatedly, the problems are usually randomly chosen from a pool of problems of similar complexity, to avoid precisely this. The answer needs to be clarified.

  Fifth, given all the problems with the surveys, why should anyone care about this statistic? The best direct answer I've got is: It shows that even if one accepts that their research is 100% accurate, their hypothesis is still meaningless. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. Where did the 1-5% figure come from? If we give it, we should first be certain that it's correct. I didn't mean to suggest that we should quote Hunt. I think there's a potential problem in saying that 1-5% is statistically meaningless because of random fluctuation that's greater than that when an individual takes the IQ test multiple times. The racial hereditarians claim that 1-5% (or whatever percent they're claiming) is consistently in one direction. This has to be rejected, not called "statistically meaningless". (Two examples showing the problem with the "statistically meaningless" claim: (1) Suppose that Jane and John each take IQ tests 5 times, and Jane's average score is 10 points higher than John's. Suppose the variation in each case over the 5 times went up and down an average of 15 points, so both were averages of 15-point fluctuations. Wouldn't we still conclude that Jane has significantly higher IQ than John? (2) The batting performance of baseball player A varies tremendously from game to game, and the same for player B. Nevertheless, if A's batting average is .350 and B's is .250, that difference is highly significant even though it's less than the game-to-game fluctuation.) I don't think we should be saying anything to the effect that "even if their research is 100% accurate it's a small difference anyway", just as we wouldn't say "even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, we should still be concerned and do something about it." NightHeron (talk) 21:50, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, Where did the 1-5% figure come from? Honestly, it's WP:SYNTH (arguably WP:CALC) from various such surveys I've read over the past few years. I like the point it makes, but I'm not married to it. We can remove it, if we want to hold the FAQ to the same standards as an article (I didn't see it that way, but I understand the case for it).

The racial hereditarians claim that 1-5% (or whatever percent they're claiming) is consistently in one direction. This has to be rejected, not called "statistically meaningless". From where I sit, there's no difference there.

(1) Suppose that Jane and John each take IQ tests 5 times, and Jane's average score is 10 points higher than John's. Suppose the variation in each case over the 5 times went up and down an average of 15 points, so both were averages of 15-point fluctuations. Wouldn't we still conclude that Jane has significantly higher IQ than John? Yes, but those are two individuals, not populations. And individuals tend to have stable IQs over time, whereas populations do not (not only the Flynn effect, but the fact that the difference are shrinking over time, as well).

(2) The batting performance This analogy is very problematic, as batting performance is much more objective and empirical than IQ.

I don't think we should be saying anything to the effect that "even if their research is 100% accurate it's a small difference anyway", That's an opinion I can understand.

just as we wouldn't say "even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, we should still be concerned and do something about it." That's not. I think you missed a clause, there, in which the deniers also assert that the consequences of not doing anything are negligible.

Just to reiterate: It seems like there might not be a consensus to keep that point, which is okay by me, even though I like that point. I strongly disagree with your criticisms of it (unless you want to critique the lack of sourcing on the 1-5%: that's valid), but it's a "parting shot" as it were, and not really necessary for the overall point. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:05, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Clarification of the climate denier analogy: it's saying "Even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, they're wrong that there's no reason to be concerned and do something about it." I think it's a very weak type of argument to say that even if we concede the main point, there's still a subsidiary point that would be valid. To give another analogy, it's what lawyers do when they say "even if my client did commit the murder, it was not premeditated so you should convict him on a lesser charge." NightHeron (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, Clarification of the climate denier analogy: it's saying "Even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, they're wrong that there's no reason to be concerned and do something about it." Yeah, that's a better phrasing that I can get behind.

To give another analogy, it's what lawyers do when they say "even if my client did commit the murder, it was not premeditated so you should convict him on a lesser charge." I see it more like "Even if my client did commit the murder, there's no evidence that it was premeditated," which is a valid point.

But GR agreed with you and Alaexis about this, so I'll get behind removing it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:35, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@NightHeron: I think you're right. I probably got carried away trying to cram a bunch of additional info into that item. I'll put it back the way it was. Generalrelative (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay I've mostly restored it to the way it was, but I've also tried to address your concern about defining the "hereditarian fallacy". Generalrelative (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I also cut the final chunk of text here, which I realized dealt with a slightly different topic. That can be turned into its own item if necessary (but I suspect it is not necessary). Generalrelative (talk) 21:47, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I concur with NightHeron that the statement about 1-5% is problematic. If the difference is statistically significant then it contradicts the main premise that there is no evidence for such difference. On the other hand, if the difference is not statistically significant, then, tautologically, these numbers are insignificant and should not be mentioned. The comparison with the variance of IQ scores of the same person is irrelevant. Alaexis_¿question? 10:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Alaexis, If the difference is statistically significant then it contradicts the main premise that there is no evidence for such difference No, it wouldn't. These numbers are speculations by the psychometrists involved, not hard data about the differences. They aren't evidence.

On the other hand, if the difference is not statistically significant, then, tautologically, these numbers are insignificant and should not be mentioned. I agree with the statement that the the numbers are insignificant, but I disagree that they shouldn't be mentioned, because they would be insignificant (per the comparison to the variance of a single person) even if there were evidence that some of the difference was genetic.

That being said, I'm not married to it. If the consensus here is that they should go, then I'm (a little reluctantly, but still) okay with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we want to be put on the defensive concerning 1-5% if a racial hereditarian POV-pusher challenges it, claims the average is much higher, and drags us into a debate about what the white supremacy percent would be (according to the racial hereditarians) if there were white supremacy in intelligence. That would be diversionary, to say the least. NightHeron (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, What do you think of the point about "even if the racists are right, the amount of difference they ascribe to genetics is meaningless" bit? It's the one that mentions 1-5%.

NH and Alaexis don't like it. If you don't either, then we should remove it. I like it, but I've nothing vested in it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@MPants at work: Thanks for asking. I find your rationale compelling, but it is rather a lot to cram into a single bullet point, resulting in a lexically dense bit of text. In my case I had to read it several times before understanding what it was saying. So I imagine it would probably generate more questions than it resolves, and for that reason I'd tend to agree that it's probably best to leave it out. Generalrelative (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, Okay, let's do that. If you don't remove it in the next few minutes, I'll do it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:31, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• I removed the bit about the speculated amount of difference. I'm considering replacing it with "Even if these survey were meaningful, the amount of the difference speculated to be genetic in origin is so small as to be meaningless." which is much more succinct, simple, and addresses some (but not all) of the criticisms here. Let me know what you think, I don't plan to be bold about it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

But even if your earlier statement about averages is correct, this simplified statement is not, because certainly some of the racial hereditarians surveyed do claim that there are meaningful differences. NightHeron (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, Right. They insist there's a difference, then when asked to quantify it, basically admit there's no difference. I think wording that conveys that would be best, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. It's probably not worth it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think the answer about political correctness is wrong. There is clearly serious resistance and taboo involving any research into race and intelligence, as discussed in Nature[49][50] ("Whereas our 'politically correct' work garners us praise, speaking invitations and book contracts, challengers are demeaned, ostracized and occasionally threatened with tenure revocation.") and elsewhere[51][52][53]. Even the quote provided acknowledges that "...moral concerns may play an important role in these decisions...". Stonkaments (talk) 00:50, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, would you say that these pieces meet the special sourcing requirements for this article? –dlthewave ☎ 01:48, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Dlthewave, I'd actually be okay writing something for the article using these, myself. Of course, I don't think Stonkaments would like me pointing out that their first two links are actually evidence that the scientific community is perfectly willing to discuss this kind of research (I mean, it's a couple of editorials in Nature, it really doesn't get more mainstream science than that), that Noah Carl got shitcanned for doing shitty research for racist reasons, that Nathan Cofnas explicitly confirms the existence of that scientific consensus Stonk spent a couple of weeks fighting to prove doesn't exist, and that that Guardian link not only doesn't say what they seem to think it does, but also argues that people only want to pursue said research because they're already racist, and that the only reason they haven't died off is because other racists support them.

I also think it's kinda funny that the argument here is that these "hereditarians" are an oppressed minority, as we collaborate on the first big change here since Stonk and crew spent a couple weeks arguing that they were the majority of scientists. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:17, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, these are absolutely reliable sources in this context. The Nature articles have been discussed here before. The Guardian article is a summary of a book from a reputable publisher, and the others were published in peer-reviewed papers. Additionally, you can look at the numerous other examples that "The Mythical Taboo on Race and Intelligence" purported to refute: Miele, 2002; Woodley of Menie et al., 2018; Ceci & Williams, 2009; Cofnas, 2016; Gottfredson, 2010; Sesardic, 2005; Rushton & Jensen, 2008; Kourany, 2016; Sternberg, 2005; Gottfredson, 1994, 2009, 2010; Warne et al., 2018. There is an abundance of sources claiming that there are issues of taboo/political correctness in this line of research; it violates WP:NPOV for the FAQ to argue otherwise by favoring the few sources that dispute this. Stonkaments (talk) 02:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

1) Ceci & Williams is a fine source for flat assertions (i.e. they helpfully state that there was in 2009 an "emerging consensus" about racial and gender equality in the genetic determinants of intelligence). They are real scientists, and their views can be considered fairly representative at least of one end of the spectrum of mainstream ideas. However nothing they say goes much beyond bare assertions based on personal experience. If that were the best source we could find for characterizing the academic environment, okay fine, but it's not. The Jackson & Winston article, on the other hand, is a piece of peer-reviewed research published in an APA journal, full of nuance and detail. And it addresses Ceci & Williams' claims, among many others, head-on. For that reason it is far more convincing as a source, and in the context of this Q&A the appropriate one to look to.

2) Of the "numerous" other sources you cite, most appear to be fringe POV-pushers themselves. The three whom you link to in your first comment here, Noah Carl, Nathan Cofnas and Gerhard Meisenberg (with regard to the latter, I presume his quotation about "political correctness" is why you linked the Guardian piece by Saini), are certainly not legitimate sources for anything. At this point it should be clear that their views hold no weight at all when it comes to scientific matters, including the question of whether their ostracism from mainstream academic circles is merited. I'm not sure if any of the other pieces you link here would fare any better under scrutiny, and frankly the onus is on you at this point to show that you're not just wasting our time by throwing spaghetti at the wall.

3) Finally, it kind of blows my mind how you mention Saini's Guardian article as though it supports your case. Yes it quotes Meisenberg but it does so in such a way as to make clear both how wildly repugnant his ideas are and how far he is outside of the scientific mainstream. Doesn't that give you pause at all? Doesn't it make you stop and wonder whether maybe you've been barking up the wrong tree this whole time? I'd like to believe that somewhere inside you there is that glimmer of recognition. Generalrelative (talk) 03:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Sigh. You're dismissing nearly 20 sources describing an environment of taboo and political correctness as fringe POV-pushing, even though you would readily consider many of them to be reliable sources in other contexts. You can't have it both ways. Stonkaments (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2021 (UTC) 19:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Could you pick a prime example? One source that is definitely not from a fringe POV-pusher but is used as reliable source in other contexts? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Ceci & Williams (2009)[54] was cited heavily in recent discussions about the scientific consensus, and is cited twice in the Wikipedia article. They are clearly not fringe POV-pushers; they argue that environmental, not genetic, factors cause the racial differences seen in IQ. Regarding political correctness, they observe:

Yet the spectre of Lysenkoism lurks in current scientific discourse on gender, race and intelligence. Claims that sex- or race-based IQ gaps are partly genetic can offend entire groups, who feel that such work feeds hatred and discrimination. Pressure from professional organizations and university administrators can result in boycotting such research, and even in ending scientific careers.

. Stonkaments (talk) 18:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Stonkaments: I suggest that you strike your comment above as a misrepresentation of other people, which is a violation of talk page guideline listed at WP:TALKNO. My statement was very clear in distinguishing the legitimate views of Ceci and Williams, whom I have indeed cited in other contexts, from fringe POV-pushers like Carl, Cofnas and Meisenberg, whose views hold no weight here. I'm pretty sure I have not approvingly cited anyone else you list here as supporting your position (unless you actually count Saini, in which case I'd be concerned about your basic reading comprehension), yet you state that I readily consider many of them to be reliable sources in other contexts. That really doesn't seem like a good-faith representation of past discussions or editing behavior. And yes I'm sure you can find "nearly 20 sources" from within the walled garden of fringe racialist pseudoscience. That's not going to change the balance of NPOV here. Jackson & Winston's peer-reviewed paper, published in an APA journal, is more than enough to establish the fact that race-and-intelligence research continues to be funded despite the fact that it is scientifically bankrupt. Generalrelative (talk) 18:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Stonkaments: Your insertion of the word "would" in your comment above is a start but is not nearly enough to allay my concern about the way you've misrepresented me. First off, how do you know what I would accept? But the main issue is that you completely ignore / mischaracterize what I say about Ceci and Williams in 1), making it seem as though I were lumping them in which racialist pseudoscientists like Carl, Cofnas and Meisenberg, when I took care to explicitly state that this was not the case (i.e. They are real scientists, and their views can be considered fairly representative at least of one end of the spectrum of mainstream ideas). Generalrelative (talk) 19:16, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, You might want to go back and read past the first sentence of my comment before you agree with me too hard. All but one of those sources undermines what you're claiming here, in one way or another. A couple of them could be used to argue that the authors have claimed there's a taboo against this research and that these researchers are unfairly ostracized (of course, one of those authors was quite fairly ostracized for doing shit work and this would need to be pointed out per WP:GEVAL), but one of them straight up argues that yes, these people are in fact racist, and they deserve what they get, and they'd have all been run off long ago if it wasn't for the even worse racists propping them up.

If you want the FAQ to have a Q&A that reads:

Isn't there a taboo against researching race and IQ?

Well, some scientists claim so, such as Noah Carl, whose work was heavily criticized as "poor scholarship" which violated standards of academic integrity and was widely considered to be of poor methodological value. Carl would go on to be dismissed from his position due to his "selective use of data and unsound statistical methods which have been used to legitimise racist stereotypes about groups". Other writers, such as Barry Mehler argued that researchers into race and IQ are "riding the wave of populism" at present, and debates on whether to "permit" such research have made their way into the editorials of Nature. Meanwhile, nonprofits such as the Pioneer Fund continue to fund such research and journals such as Mankind Quarterly continue to publish it.

If that's the sort of Q&A you think we need to add, I'll add it myself. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate where you're coming from here, MjolnirPants, but if we were to add such a section it would have to be much longer to include all the bogus claims by wannabe scientists scrambling to get a piece of that sweet, sweet Pioneer Fund, and all the ways in which they have been rightly rejected by the mainstream academy for attendant piss-poor methodological choices. Instead I suggest that we keep the language the way it is since the existing Jackson and Winston reference details these matters very clearly. Any reader who's curious to learn more can easily click through. Generalrelative (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, You raise a good point. I rescind my offer, and have changed my mind. Let's keep it the way it is. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:56, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

MjolnirPants Well cheers then! Generalrelative (talk) 03:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, per your edit summary:

SUWEE!!!

Sorry. I'm from the South. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Lol, I'm just well traveled enough to get the reference :) Generalrelative (talk) 04:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I wonder if an entry about how this topic was viewed in the past would be helpful? The answer could be along the lines that every attempt to study or prove this in the past was based on racist motivations? I don't have sources handy at the moment, but I think some historical framing to this topic could be helpful. There's the obvious examples from Nazi doctors and then experiments with African Americans during the Jim Crow era. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, The Guardian source Stonkaments wanted to use to evince his claim that these researchers are ostracized would seem to support that statement. I rather like the idea of outlining the history here, and am curious what other editors think. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree, as long as we can include thus quote from Saini's piece:

When Rushton’s book Race, Evolution and Behaviour was published in 1995, psychologist David Barash was stirred to write in a review: “Bad science and virulent racial prejudice drip like pus from nearly every page of this despicable book.” Rushton had collected scraps of unreliable evidence in “the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result”. In reality, Barash wrote, “the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit”.

Generalrelative (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, I absolutely adore that quote and wholeheartedly concur. I'm considering getting it tattooed on my rib cage. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

We'll be twinsies then because I already got it as a tramp stamp. Generalrelative (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here.

FYI the relevant content dispute begins at comment #4 of Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here#WP:DUE. Generalrelative (talk) 16:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Moved from user talk page

You reverted my edit on the article "race and intelligence", explaining it by implying that the edit was based on personal analysis. However, it is the scientific consensus that intelligence is influenced by genetics (hope we both agree on that, so that I don't have to provide citations, but can do if needed) on an individual level. It is then a direct logical implication that the mean level of intelligence in groups of individuals is influenced by genetics - it's just that this influence is smaller by a factor equal to the number of people in the groups (assuming natural intelligence is distributed normally). There is no personal analysis at all.

In anticipation of a likely mention of WP:SYN, I will mention WP:SKY. We don't need a citation for the fact that, due to genetic mutations, there is natural variability in not only intelligence but every human trait - the only uncertainty that exists is in the variability of said trait. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 13:16, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

The Race and intelligence article has been the subject of considerable controversy. It is currently subject to Discretionary sanctions, and accordingly, making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable. If you wish such a change to be agreed to, you will do best to discuss it on the article talk page, where other contributors will be aware of the discussion. Accordingly, beyond advising you to read the article itself and the article talk page archives, and to read WP:SYN and WP:SKY again more carefully, I'm not going to discuss the matter here. THat is what article talk pages are for. AndyTheGrump (talk)

It's funny that you say that "making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable" given the sentence that I made changes to was added as a result of a discussion that I initiated. But okay, noted. Talk page it is. I'm a bit disappointed you didn't actually provide any reasons for why you felt reverting my edit was the best course of action, but I guess someone on the article's talk page will explain. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Andy did, in fact, provide an explanation for his revert. Your assertion to the contrary makes no sense, as the explanation is right there in his edit summary for everyone to read.

As for the substance of your edit summary: You should read the FAQ on the article talk page, as it explains exactly why the OR justification you provided is wrong.

Your comment about WP:SKY above indicates that you're likely not fully familiar with the subject of race and genetics. Fortunately, the FAQ I mentions provides a brief primer on that, enough info to show that your argument regarding WP:SKY is based on an inaccurate-but-common-among-the-laity belief about genetics and race. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: I'll have you know that I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish. I can only assume that you either haven't done the same or have misinterpreted what I'm saying, as, if anything, some of the sources provided support my initial intuition, with none refuting it. Although having read such a large amount of text, I can't hope to find the exact citations, I do recall some of the sources saying something along the lines of "any plausible genetic differences in intelligence between populations are due to the random fluctuations in the intelligence of individuals, and are hence negligible", and "if there are genetic differences between populations, the direction of the mean difference could favor Africans or Europeans with equal likelihood". In fact, this intuition is not only not refuted/supported by these sources, it is also self-evidently true and implied from the clearly established consensus that intelligence on an individual level is influenced by genetics ─ and it would be such even if I was completely unfamiliar with the field of genetics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I can only assume that you either haven't done the same MjolnirPants literally wrote the FAQ. Leijurv (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Here is a clear explanation as to why your "self-evidently true" supposition is false. It's from the Nature article "Heritability in the genomics era — concepts and misconceptions" (ref #2 under the Heritability of IQ section in the FAQ). In a list of "misconceptions regarding heritability" it lists as false the assumption that "Heritability is informative about the nature of between-group differences" and goes on to explain why in detail:

This misconception comes in two forms, and in both cases height and IQ in human populations are good examples. The first misconception is that when the heritability is high, groups that differ greatly in the mean of the trait in question must do so because of genetic differences. The second misconception is that the observation of a shift in the mean of a character over time (when we can discount changes in gene frequencies) for a trait with high heritability is a paradox. For IQ, a large increase in the mean has been observed in numerous populations, and this phenomenon is called the Flynn effect, after its discoverer. The problem with this suggested paradox is that heritability should not be used to make predictions about mean changes in the population over time or about differences between groups, because in each individual calculation the heritability is defined for a particular population and says nothing about environments in other populations. White males born in the United States were the tallest in the world in the mid-19th century and about 9 cm taller than Dutch males. At the end of the 20th century, although the height of males in the United States had increased, many European countries had overtaken them and Dutch males are now approximately 5 cm taller than white US males, a trend that is likely to be environmental rather than genetic in origin.

An open-access vrsion of the article is here. I hope that's informative. Generalrelative (talk) 03:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't mean that they read all of the sources cited in the FAQ from start to finish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk • contribs) 13:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Oooo, spooky goalposts, moving from one place to another! And new responses go to the bottom and need to be signed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

• Augh! I'm caught! I've never read a word of the FAQ. You got me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Do people really not understand what I'm saying? None of what Generalrelative has cited has anything to do with the point that I'm making. I'll try to put it in different words. Let's say the variance in the genetically determined intelligence of a single person is $\sigma ^{2}$. From the definition of variance, it follows that the variance of a sample mean of a group of people is $\sigma ^{2}/n$, where n is the number of people in the group. Since this variance is non-zero, and since intelligence is a continuous (not discrete) quantity, it is then implied that the probability of two sample means ─ even if taken from the same parent population ─ of being exactly the same is zero. So it is in fact impossible for there not to be any genetic differences between any two groups of people. Once again, this conclusion is trivially true and follows directly from the assumption that intelligence is a continuous quantity. One doesn't need any knowledge in genetics to reach this conclusion. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I think we understand quite well what you're saying. You're saying that for statistical reasons between any two sets of people there will be a genetic difference in average intelligence. For example, let X be the set of people whose last names begin with the odd-numbered letters A,C,E,G,..., and let Y be the set of people whose last names begin with the even-numbered letters B,D,F,H,.... So, according to you, it must be the case that either the X people are genetically superior to the Y people in intelligence, or else the Y people are genetically superior to the X people in intelligence? NightHeron (talk) 13:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Terms like "genetically superior" are not very rigorous. In rigorous terms, the average innate/genetic intelligence of the X people is higher than that of the Y people, or vice versa. And that's not according to me ─ that's according to some very basic statistics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

And the fact that what you call "very basic statistics" leads to an absurd, obviously wrong conclusion when applied to NightHeron's example does not bother you? Maybe your understanding af basic statistics is wrong? This happens to people, you know.

I think we should just keep using WP:RS instead of your WP:OR. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Given that I'm a statistician by profession, yeah, I clearly should book up on basic statistics. Would you be willing to share your immaculate statistical understanding with me? Maybe you can teach me how to, in cases where mathematically provable results contradict our intuition, claim that maths is wrong and that it's our intuition that's right? Is that the secret to statistics that has evaded me for so long?

In all seriousness, I'd like to hear why you think my conclusion is "obviously wrong". It seems pretty intuitive. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The result was that the first letter of my last name is genetically connected to my intelligence.

Now is the time to tell us what you actually mean by "genetic differences". Is it just the unavoidable statistical fluctuations? Essentially, "different numbers are different"? Measurements of the X and Y IQs yield slightly different numbers, but the difference gets tinier and tinier with increasing sample size? Then, yes, you are right! Everybody here agrees! Clap. Clap. Clap.

Or do you mean "genetic differences based on a real, measureable, reproduceable effect with real-life consequences, well outside the white noise"? In that case, you will need more than trivially true statements. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. As you said, everybody here agrees with this, right? So then why is this exact statement in the article, and the moment that I tried to change it to make it not trivially false, my edits got immediately reverted? I must be missing something major here. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Yes, you seem to have gotten the consensus position precisely backwards here. It is as geneticist / neuroscientist Kevin Mitchell says (quoted in the FAQ): "While genetic variation may help to explain why one person is more intelligent than another, there are unlikely to be stable and systematic genetic differences that make one population more intelligent than the next." Assuming that individual genetic differences in intelligence imply the existence of group-level genetic differences in intelligence is a fallacy, which was the point of the bit I quoted for you above. The FAQ cites several other RSs which state this explicitly, so if you've read them all already you should be familiar. Generalrelative (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Generalrelative: As much as like to keep my tone respectful, this is getting a little bit frustrating. Did you bother reading anything that I've written after your initial reply? Clearly I am not advocating that systematic genetic differences are likely. My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. So, for example, the average genetic difference in IQ between Americans and Nigerians might be 0.001 now; in a couple of generation's time, it might be -0.002; and 200 years ago, it might have been 0.003. For a thousandth time, this statement is not a matter of personal opinion or consensus ─ it's a trivially true fact that is logically implicit from the assumption that genetics influences intelligence at an individual level (which we all agree it does). How can I make my point any clearer? Tell me? Which part of what I said is confusing or ambiguous? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:31, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

FAQ edit

I made this edit on the FAQ page, as well as this one. Both edits got immediately reverted by user:NorthBySouthBaranof without explanation; naturally, I asked them for one on the talk page, but they haven't responded yet, and I thought I'd get a quicker response here. The first of my edits addresses the fact that the current version is slightly misleading, as it is written in such a way which is likely to mislead the reader into thinking that IQ is not a valid measure of any form of intelligence (especially by answering the question "doesn't IQ measure intelligence" with "not exactly"). It is generally agreed upon that this is not the case, and that IQ does actually measure some types of intelligence ─ just not all (as is actually explained by one of the sources provided in the FAQ). So my edit cleared up this confusion without changing the character of the answer, which conveys that IQ is not an all-encompassing measure of intelligence. The second edit replaced a dubious, America-centric example of Native Americans having the same features as Europeans (even though their phenotype is arguably more similar to that of East Asians) with a much clearer, more global example of North Indians, who actually came from the same Indo-European population as Europeans, so their connection to Europeans is unmistakable. Do people agree with NBSB's decision to revert both of these edits? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Your first edit was not an improvement over the earlier text, because how accurately or reliably IQ measures any aspect of intelligence is open to debate. As with other tests, performance on IQ tests depends on many factors other than what the test was designed to measure. We cannot state as a fact that they're "valid and reliable". Your rationale for the second edit is very weak. "America-centrism" was not a problem in the text. The only America reference in the passage is to Native Americans. When people complain of Wikipedia having disproportionate coverage of the US, they're not talking about coverage of the indigenous population that was displaced by European colonialism. NightHeron (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. From the article on IQ, "While IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence, they may fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of creativity and social intelligence". And, from one of the sources described in the FAQ as a statement by a group of prominent geneticists, "Critics often assert that it is an oversimplified metric applied to a far-too-complex set of behaviours, that the cultural-specificity of tests renders them useless, or that IQ tests really only measure how good people are at doing IQ tests. Although an IQ score is far from a perfect measure, it does an excellent job of correlating with, and predicting, many educational, occupational, and health-related outcomes. IQ does not tell us everything that anyone could want to know about human intelligence – but because definitions of “intelligence” vary so widely, no measure could possibly meet that challenge".

Furthermore, the reliability of IQ tests is known to be very high and is certainly not up to debate. Once again, I direct you to the article on Intelligence quotient, where this is explained in more detail.

All in all, that IQ tests are valid and reliable predictors of the types of intelligence associated with e.g. educational attainment and financial success is a well-documented fact that is barely disputable.

As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans?

That America-centrism wasn't a problem in the text is a sentiment that you have (as an American?), but I, as a non-American, don't share it. Most people outside of the US will not be familiar with what Native Americans look like, while the same cannot be said about North Indians, whose appearance more people around the world are likely to relate to. However, America-centrism wasn't even the main issue that I was addressing ─ that would be the fact that Native Americans really don't have similar features to Europeans, with North Indians being a far closer match. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)