Talk:Race and intelligence

Discussion at Talk:Nicholas Wade

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Nicholas Wade. Generalrelative (talk) 15:08, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

There is now a formal RfC at this talk page: Talk:Nicholas Wade#RfC about suggested statement. You are invited to participate. Generalrelative (talk) 00:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

FYI FAQ

To all participating here: I've started work on a potential FYI for this talk page at User:MjolnirPants/RnI FYI. I'd like to know what everyone thinks and invite you all to suggest changes. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 01:42, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

The FYI has been through a few rounds of edits, along with a bit of discussion about them, and I believe it is ready for inclusion here. Would love to hear from others about it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:17, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

After another few rounds of editing, the FAQ is looking better than ever. I intend to add it to this page very soon. If anyone believes discussion would be helpful, then now is the time to get it going. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

• I've added the FAQ, as the latest round of changes has been pretty minor, and the FAQ appears to be in good shape, well-sourced and highly informative as it stands. Note, I had to manually copy it, as there was an existing, unfinished and unused FAQ here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:04, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you! I have a few additional points:

• I'd suggest that the question What do other scientists have to say about the question of a genetic link between race and intelligence? should either be eliminated or substantially altered. Not all sources (including those we reference in the FAQ) agree that the question is fundamentally unintelligible. Many think that such a link is indeed possible but highly unlikely to exist. And since the current version of the FAQ is visually quite cluttered, we might want to err on the side of fewer items.
• I'd suggest that What is the evidence for a genetic link between race and intelligence? could be rephrased to make it clear without clicking through that there is no such evidence (or we could consider cutting this question altogether). Otherwise it appears to contradict the premise of the first question.
• I'd suggest that What is the current state of the science on a link between intelligence and race? can be eliminated to avoid clutter, since it simply directs the reader to read the article.

Generalrelative (talk) 14:51, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Note that I've gone ahead with my first suggestion here, as well as altered the question substantially to read Isn't this just political correctness? Happy to be reverted and discuss if others disagree with these changes! Generalrelative (talk) 16:58, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Also: upon reflection I wonder if we really need three Q&As on "is race really socially constructed?" These are well written but I wonder if they represent a bit of a tangent in this context. Perhaps we can just direct skeptics to the main article Race (human categorization) and to the essay WP:Race and ethnicity? Just a thought. Generalrelative (talk) 17:05, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

They speak to the fundamentals of the issue: people who assert this genetic link invariably assert a biological origin to racial classifications, and deny the well-proven social origin. I mean, the question of a genetic link between race and IQ is "unintelligible" precisely because of the nature of human racial differences as nothing more than a loose and inconsistent collection of unrelated traits.

As for the other stuff you mentioned: Regarding your first point and the edits you made, I approve. I just addressed your second point with an edit. I'm agnostic on your third point. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 18:08, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with finishing with an encouragement to go read the article and judge for yourself. I think it should stand. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Cool, thanks to you both! Generalrelative (talk) 18:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

The FAQ is really shaping up well. I have questions about two of the Q-and-As:

• The answer to Q7 is very long. The first paragraph is hard to follow ("clear evidence for selective pressure", "dedicated genetic module...that can be acted on independently by natural selection...often negatively" etc.) and does not explain what the fallacy is. Perhaps after the first sentence we could put in: "A quick explanation of this fallacy is given in the last paragraph of the "Heritability within and between groups" section of the article and the accompanying picture." I'd suggest removing the rest of this paragraph after the first sentence, but keeping the block quote, which is clearly written.
• I also wonder if the 6th bullet-point in the 4th-to-last question is really needed. (In such surveys, the average percentage of the measured delta (about 15 points between the highest average racial score and the lowest average racial score) estimated to be explained by genetics is 1-5%; less than half the delta expected between two identical IQ tests taken by the same person on different days. In other words: statistically meaningless.) First, it uses technical language "measured delta". Second, it's not clear what average is being taken. Third, I'm not sure that it's accurate. Hunt estimated 3%, and he was among the relatively moderate members of the ISIR crowd. Fourth, if the IQ tests taken by the same person were identical, of course one would expect performance the second time to be significantly better than the first time ("practice makes perfect"). Fifth, given all the problems with the surveys, why should anyone care about this statistic? NightHeron (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

  NightHeron, First, it uses technical language "measured delta". Good point. I agree on rewording this.

  Second, it's not clear what average is being taken. Also a good point.

  Third, I'm not sure that it's accurate. Hunt estimated 3%, and he was among the relatively moderate members of the ISIR crowd. Well, 3% is pretty close to the median of 1-5%. I'm not sure what you mean, here. I've seen 1% and 5% given, though Hunt is the only one who's opinion has been brought up on WP about it, that I've seen. If you think we should quote Hunt on this, I'm fine with that.

  Fourth, if the IQ tests taken by the same person were identical, of course one would expect performance the second time to be significantly better than the first time ("practice makes perfect"). This needs clarification: when giving a person an IQ test repeatedly, the problems are usually randomly chosen from a pool of problems of similar complexity, to avoid precisely this. The answer needs to be clarified.

  Fifth, given all the problems with the surveys, why should anyone care about this statistic? The best direct answer I've got is: It shows that even if one accepts that their research is 100% accurate, their hypothesis is still meaningless. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. Where did the 1-5% figure come from? If we give it, we should first be certain that it's correct. I didn't mean to suggest that we should quote Hunt. I think there's a potential problem in saying that 1-5% is statistically meaningless because of random fluctuation that's greater than that when an individual takes the IQ test multiple times. The racial hereditarians claim that 1-5% (or whatever percent they're claiming) is consistently in one direction. This has to be rejected, not called "statistically meaningless". (Two examples showing the problem with the "statistically meaningless" claim: (1) Suppose that Jane and John each take IQ tests 5 times, and Jane's average score is 10 points higher than John's. Suppose the variation in each case over the 5 times went up and down an average of 15 points, so both were averages of 15-point fluctuations. Wouldn't we still conclude that Jane has significantly higher IQ than John? (2) The batting performance of baseball player A varies tremendously from game to game, and the same for player B. Nevertheless, if A's batting average is .350 and B's is .250, that difference is highly significant even though it's less than the game-to-game fluctuation.) I don't think we should be saying anything to the effect that "even if their research is 100% accurate it's a small difference anyway", just as we wouldn't say "even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, we should still be concerned and do something about it." NightHeron (talk) 21:50, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, Where did the 1-5% figure come from? Honestly, it's WP:SYNTH (arguably WP:CALC) from various such surveys I've read over the past few years. I like the point it makes, but I'm not married to it. We can remove it, if we want to hold the FAQ to the same standards as an article (I didn't see it that way, but I understand the case for it).

The racial hereditarians claim that 1-5% (or whatever percent they're claiming) is consistently in one direction. This has to be rejected, not called "statistically meaningless". From where I sit, there's no difference there.

(1) Suppose that Jane and John each take IQ tests 5 times, and Jane's average score is 10 points higher than John's. Suppose the variation in each case over the 5 times went up and down an average of 15 points, so both were averages of 15-point fluctuations. Wouldn't we still conclude that Jane has significantly higher IQ than John? Yes, but those are two individuals, not populations. And individuals tend to have stable IQs over time, whereas populations do not (not only the Flynn effect, but the fact that the difference are shrinking over time, as well).

(2) The batting performance This analogy is very problematic, as batting performance is much more objective and empirical than IQ.

I don't think we should be saying anything to the effect that "even if their research is 100% accurate it's a small difference anyway", That's an opinion I can understand.

just as we wouldn't say "even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, we should still be concerned and do something about it." That's not. I think you missed a clause, there, in which the deniers also assert that the consequences of not doing anything are negligible.

Just to reiterate: It seems like there might not be a consensus to keep that point, which is okay by me, even though I like that point. I strongly disagree with your criticisms of it (unless you want to critique the lack of sourcing on the 1-5%: that's valid), but it's a "parting shot" as it were, and not really necessary for the overall point. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:05, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Clarification of the climate denier analogy: it's saying "Even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, they're wrong that there's no reason to be concerned and do something about it." I think it's a very weak type of argument to say that even if we concede the main point, there's still a subsidiary point that would be valid. To give another analogy, it's what lawyers do when they say "even if my client did commit the murder, it was not premeditated so you should convict him on a lesser charge." NightHeron (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, Clarification of the climate denier analogy: it's saying "Even if the climate change deniers are right that whatever change is occurring is caused naturally rather than by humans, they're wrong that there's no reason to be concerned and do something about it." Yeah, that's a better phrasing that I can get behind.

To give another analogy, it's what lawyers do when they say "even if my client did commit the murder, it was not premeditated so you should convict him on a lesser charge." I see it more like "Even if my client did commit the murder, there's no evidence that it was premeditated," which is a valid point.

But GR agreed with you and Alaexis about this, so I'll get behind removing it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:35, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@NightHeron: I think you're right. I probably got carried away trying to cram a bunch of additional info into that item. I'll put it back the way it was. Generalrelative (talk) 20:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay I've mostly restored it to the way it was, but I've also tried to address your concern about defining the "hereditarian fallacy". Generalrelative (talk) 21:11, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I also cut the final chunk of text here, which I realized dealt with a slightly different topic. That can be turned into its own item if necessary (but I suspect it is not necessary). Generalrelative (talk) 21:47, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I concur with NightHeron that the statement about 1-5% is problematic. If the difference is statistically significant then it contradicts the main premise that there is no evidence for such difference. On the other hand, if the difference is not statistically significant, then, tautologically, these numbers are insignificant and should not be mentioned. The comparison with the variance of IQ scores of the same person is irrelevant. Alaexis_¿question? 10:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Alaexis, If the difference is statistically significant then it contradicts the main premise that there is no evidence for such difference No, it wouldn't. These numbers are speculations by the psychometrists involved, not hard data about the differences. They aren't evidence.

On the other hand, if the difference is not statistically significant, then, tautologically, these numbers are insignificant and should not be mentioned. I agree with the statement that the the numbers are insignificant, but I disagree that they shouldn't be mentioned, because they would be insignificant (per the comparison to the variance of a single person) even if there were evidence that some of the difference was genetic.

That being said, I'm not married to it. If the consensus here is that they should go, then I'm (a little reluctantly, but still) okay with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:48, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we want to be put on the defensive concerning 1-5% if a racial hereditarian POV-pusher challenges it, claims the average is much higher, and drags us into a debate about what the white supremacy percent would be (according to the racial hereditarians) if there were white supremacy in intelligence. That would be diversionary, to say the least. NightHeron (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, What do you think of the point about "even if the racists are right, the amount of difference they ascribe to genetics is meaningless" bit? It's the one that mentions 1-5%.

NH and Alaexis don't like it. If you don't either, then we should remove it. I like it, but I've nothing vested in it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@MPants at work: Thanks for asking. I find your rationale compelling, but it is rather a lot to cram into a single bullet point, resulting in a lexically dense bit of text. In my case I had to read it several times before understanding what it was saying. So I imagine it would probably generate more questions than it resolves, and for that reason I'd tend to agree that it's probably best to leave it out. Generalrelative (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, Okay, let's do that. If you don't remove it in the next few minutes, I'll do it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:31, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• I removed the bit about the speculated amount of difference. I'm considering replacing it with "Even if these survey were meaningful, the amount of the difference speculated to be genetic in origin is so small as to be meaningless." which is much more succinct, simple, and addresses some (but not all) of the criticisms here. Let me know what you think, I don't plan to be bold about it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

But even if your earlier statement about averages is correct, this simplified statement is not, because certainly some of the racial hereditarians surveyed do claim that there are meaningful differences. NightHeron (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

NightHeron, Right. They insist there's a difference, then when asked to quantify it, basically admit there's no difference. I think wording that conveys that would be best, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. It's probably not worth it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think the answer about political correctness is wrong. There is clearly serious resistance and taboo involving any research into race and intelligence, as discussed in Nature[11][12] ("Whereas our 'politically correct' work garners us praise, speaking invitations and book contracts, challengers are demeaned, ostracized and occasionally threatened with tenure revocation.") and elsewhere[13][14][15]. Even the quote provided acknowledges that "...moral concerns may play an important role in these decisions...". Stonkaments (talk) 00:50, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, would you say that these pieces meet the special sourcing requirements for this article? –dlthewave ☎ 01:48, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Dlthewave, I'd actually be okay writing something for the article using these, myself. Of course, I don't think Stonkaments would like me pointing out that their first two links are actually evidence that the scientific community is perfectly willing to discuss this kind of research (I mean, it's a couple of editorials in Nature, it really doesn't get more mainstream science than that), that Noah Carl got shitcanned for doing shitty research for racist reasons, that Nathan Cofnas explicitly confirms the existence of that scientific consensus Stonk spent a couple of weeks fighting to prove doesn't exist, and that that Guardian link not only doesn't say what they seem to think it does, but also argues that people only want to pursue said research because they're already racist, and that the only reason they haven't died off is because other racists support them.

I also think it's kinda funny that the argument here is that these "hereditarians" are an oppressed minority, as we collaborate on the first big change here since Stonk and crew spent a couple weeks arguing that they were the majority of scientists. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:17, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, these are absolutely reliable sources in this context. The Nature articles have been discussed here before. The Guardian article is a summary of a book from a reputable publisher, and the others were published in peer-reviewed papers. Additionally, you can look at the numerous other examples that "The Mythical Taboo on Race and Intelligence" purported to refute: Miele, 2002; Woodley of Menie et al., 2018; Ceci & Williams, 2009; Cofnas, 2016; Gottfredson, 2010; Sesardic, 2005; Rushton & Jensen, 2008; Kourany, 2016; Sternberg, 2005; Gottfredson, 1994, 2009, 2010; Warne et al., 2018. There is an abundance of sources claiming that there are issues of taboo/political correctness in this line of research; it violates WP:NPOV for the FAQ to argue otherwise by favoring the few sources that dispute this. Stonkaments (talk) 02:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

1) Ceci & Williams is a fine source for flat assertions (i.e. they helpfully state that there was in 2009 an "emerging consensus" about racial and gender equality in the genetic determinants of intelligence). They are real scientists, and their views can be considered fairly representative at least of one end of the spectrum of mainstream ideas. However nothing they say goes much beyond bare assertions based on personal experience. If that were the best source we could find for characterizing the academic environment, okay fine, but it's not. The Jackson & Winston article, on the other hand, is a piece of peer-reviewed research published in an APA journal, full of nuance and detail. And it addresses Ceci & Williams' claims, among many others, head-on. For that reason it is far more convincing as a source, and in the context of this Q&A the appropriate one to look to.

2) Of the "numerous" other sources you cite, most appear to be fringe POV-pushers themselves. The three whom you link to in your first comment here, Noah Carl, Nathan Cofnas and Gerhard Meisenberg (with regard to the latter, I presume his quotation about "political correctness" is why you linked the Guardian piece by Saini), are certainly not legitimate sources for anything. At this point it should be clear that their views hold no weight at all when it comes to scientific matters, including the question of whether their ostracism from mainstream academic circles is merited. I'm not sure if any of the other pieces you link here would fare any better under scrutiny, and frankly the onus is on you at this point to show that you're not just wasting our time by throwing spaghetti at the wall.

3) Finally, it kind of blows my mind how you mention Saini's Guardian article as though it supports your case. Yes it quotes Meisenberg but it does so in such a way as to make clear both how wildly repugnant his ideas are and how far he is outside of the scientific mainstream. Doesn't that give you pause at all? Doesn't it make you stop and wonder whether maybe you've been barking up the wrong tree this whole time? I'd like to believe that somewhere inside you there is that glimmer of recognition. Generalrelative (talk) 03:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Sigh. You're dismissing nearly 20 sources describing an environment of taboo and political correctness as fringe POV-pushing, even though you would readily consider many of them to be reliable sources in other contexts. You can't have it both ways. Stonkaments (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2021 (UTC) 19:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Could you pick a prime example? One source that is definitely not from a fringe POV-pusher but is used as reliable source in other contexts? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 18:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Ceci & Williams (2009)[16] was cited heavily in recent discussions about the scientific consensus, and is cited twice in the Wikipedia article. They are clearly not fringe POV-pushers; they argue that environmental, not genetic, factors cause the racial differences seen in IQ. Regarding political correctness, they observe:

Yet the spectre of Lysenkoism lurks in current scientific discourse on gender, race and intelligence. Claims that sex- or race-based IQ gaps are partly genetic can offend entire groups, who feel that such work feeds hatred and discrimination. Pressure from professional organizations and university administrators can result in boycotting such research, and even in ending scientific careers.

. Stonkaments (talk) 18:36, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Stonkaments: I suggest that you strike your comment above as a misrepresentation of other people, which is a violation of talk page guideline listed at WP:TALKNO. My statement was very clear in distinguishing the legitimate views of Ceci and Williams, whom I have indeed cited in other contexts, from fringe POV-pushers like Carl, Cofnas and Meisenberg, whose views hold no weight here. I'm pretty sure I have not approvingly cited anyone else you list here as supporting your position (unless you actually count Saini, in which case I'd be concerned about your basic reading comprehension), yet you state that I readily consider many of them to be reliable sources in other contexts. That really doesn't seem like a good-faith representation of past discussions or editing behavior. And yes I'm sure you can find "nearly 20 sources" from within the walled garden of fringe racialist pseudoscience. That's not going to change the balance of NPOV here. Jackson & Winston's peer-reviewed paper, published in an APA journal, is more than enough to establish the fact that race-and-intelligence research continues to be funded despite the fact that it is scientifically bankrupt. Generalrelative (talk) 18:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

@Stonkaments: Your insertion of the word "would" in your comment above is a start but is not nearly enough to allay my concern about the way you've misrepresented me. First off, how do you know what I would accept? But the main issue is that you completely ignore / mischaracterize what I say about Ceci and Williams in 1), making it seem as though I were lumping them in which racialist pseudoscientists like Carl, Cofnas and Meisenberg, when I took care to explicitly state that this was not the case (i.e. They are real scientists, and their views can be considered fairly representative at least of one end of the spectrum of mainstream ideas). Generalrelative (talk) 19:16, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Stonkaments, You might want to go back and read past the first sentence of my comment before you agree with me too hard. All but one of those sources undermines what you're claiming here, in one way or another. A couple of them could be used to argue that the authors have claimed there's a taboo against this research and that these researchers are unfairly ostracized (of course, one of those authors was quite fairly ostracized for doing shit work and this would need to be pointed out per WP:GEVAL), but one of them straight up argues that yes, these people are in fact racist, and they deserve what they get, and they'd have all been run off long ago if it wasn't for the even worse racists propping them up.

If you want the FAQ to have a Q&A that reads:

Isn't there a taboo against researching race and IQ?

Well, some scientists claim so, such as Noah Carl, whose work was heavily criticized as "poor scholarship" which violated standards of academic integrity and was widely considered to be of poor methodological value. Carl would go on to be dismissed from his position due to his "selective use of data and unsound statistical methods which have been used to legitimise racist stereotypes about groups". Other writers, such as Barry Mehler argued that researchers into race and IQ are "riding the wave of populism" at present, and debates on whether to "permit" such research have made their way into the editorials of Nature. Meanwhile, nonprofits such as the Pioneer Fund continue to fund such research and journals such as Mankind Quarterly continue to publish it.

If that's the sort of Q&A you think we need to add, I'll add it myself. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate where you're coming from here, MjolnirPants, but if we were to add such a section it would have to be much longer to include all the bogus claims by wannabe scientists scrambling to get a piece of that sweet, sweet Pioneer Fund, and all the ways in which they have been rightly rejected by the mainstream academy for attendant piss-poor methodological choices. Instead I suggest that we keep the language the way it is since the existing Jackson and Winston reference details these matters very clearly. Any reader who's curious to learn more can easily click through. Generalrelative (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, You raise a good point. I rescind my offer, and have changed my mind. Let's keep it the way it is. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 03:56, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

MjolnirPants Well cheers then! Generalrelative (talk) 03:58, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, per your edit summary:

SUWEE!!!

Sorry. I'm from the South. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 04:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Lol, I'm just well traveled enough to get the reference :) Generalrelative (talk) 04:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I wonder if an entry about how this topic was viewed in the past would be helpful? The answer could be along the lines that every attempt to study or prove this in the past was based on racist motivations? I don't have sources handy at the moment, but I think some historical framing to this topic could be helpful. There's the obvious examples from Nazi doctors and then experiments with African Americans during the Jim Crow era. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:01, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, The Guardian source Stonkaments wanted to use to evince his claim that these researchers are ostracized would seem to support that statement. I rather like the idea of outlining the history here, and am curious what other editors think. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree, as long as we can include thus quote from Saini's piece:

When Rushton’s book Race, Evolution and Behaviour was published in 1995, psychologist David Barash was stirred to write in a review: “Bad science and virulent racial prejudice drip like pus from nearly every page of this despicable book.” Rushton had collected scraps of unreliable evidence in “the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result”. In reality, Barash wrote, “the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit”.

Generalrelative (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Generalrelative, I absolutely adore that quote and wholeheartedly concur. I'm considering getting it tattooed on my rib cage. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

We'll be twinsies then because I already got it as a tramp stamp. Generalrelative (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here.

FYI the relevant content dispute begins at comment #4 of Talk:Who We Are and How We Got Here#WP:DUE. Generalrelative (talk) 16:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Moved from user talk page

You reverted my edit on the article "race and intelligence", explaining it by implying that the edit was based on personal analysis. However, it is the scientific consensus that intelligence is influenced by genetics (hope we both agree on that, so that I don't have to provide citations, but can do if needed) on an individual level. It is then a direct logical implication that the mean level of intelligence in groups of individuals is influenced by genetics - it's just that this influence is smaller by a factor equal to the number of people in the groups (assuming natural intelligence is distributed normally). There is no personal analysis at all.

In anticipation of a likely mention of WP:SYN, I will mention WP:SKY. We don't need a citation for the fact that, due to genetic mutations, there is natural variability in not only intelligence but every human trait - the only uncertainty that exists is in the variability of said trait. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 13:16, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

The Race and intelligence article has been the subject of considerable controversy. It is currently subject to Discretionary sanctions, and accordingly, making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable. If you wish such a change to be agreed to, you will do best to discuss it on the article talk page, where other contributors will be aware of the discussion. Accordingly, beyond advising you to read the article itself and the article talk page archives, and to read WP:SYN and WP:SKY again more carefully, I'm not going to discuss the matter here. THat is what article talk pages are for. AndyTheGrump (talk)

It's funny that you say that "making a significant change to the first sentence of the lede without prior discussion is inadvisable" given the sentence that I made changes to was added as a result of a discussion that I initiated. But okay, noted. Talk page it is. I'm a bit disappointed you didn't actually provide any reasons for why you felt reverting my edit was the best course of action, but I guess someone on the article's talk page will explain. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 15:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Andy did, in fact, provide an explanation for his revert. Your assertion to the contrary makes no sense, as the explanation is right there in his edit summary for everyone to read.

As for the substance of your edit summary: You should read the FAQ on the article talk page, as it explains exactly why the OR justification you provided is wrong.

Your comment about WP:SKY above indicates that you're likely not fully familiar with the subject of race and genetics. Fortunately, the FAQ I mentions provides a brief primer on that, enough info to show that your argument regarding WP:SKY is based on an inaccurate-but-common-among-the-laity belief about genetics and race. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: I'll have you know that I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish. I can only assume that you either haven't done the same or have misinterpreted what I'm saying, as, if anything, some of the sources provided support my initial intuition, with none refuting it. Although having read such a large amount of text, I can't hope to find the exact citations, I do recall some of the sources saying something along the lines of "any plausible genetic differences in intelligence between populations are due to the random fluctuations in the intelligence of individuals, and are hence negligible", and "if there are genetic differences between populations, the direction of the mean difference could favor Africans or Europeans with equal likelihood". In fact, this intuition is not only not refuted/supported by these sources, it is also self-evidently true and implied from the clearly established consensus that intelligence on an individual level is influenced by genetics ─ and it would be such even if I was completely unfamiliar with the field of genetics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I can only assume that you either haven't done the same MjolnirPants literally wrote the FAQ. Leijurv (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Here is a clear explanation as to why your "self-evidently true" supposition is false. It's from the Nature article "Heritability in the genomics era — concepts and misconceptions" (ref #2 under the Heritability of IQ section in the FAQ). In a list of "misconceptions regarding heritability" it lists as false the assumption that "Heritability is informative about the nature of between-group differences" and goes on to explain why in detail:

This misconception comes in two forms, and in both cases height and IQ in human populations are good examples. The first misconception is that when the heritability is high, groups that differ greatly in the mean of the trait in question must do so because of genetic differences. The second misconception is that the observation of a shift in the mean of a character over time (when we can discount changes in gene frequencies) for a trait with high heritability is a paradox. For IQ, a large increase in the mean has been observed in numerous populations, and this phenomenon is called the Flynn effect, after its discoverer. The problem with this suggested paradox is that heritability should not be used to make predictions about mean changes in the population over time or about differences between groups, because in each individual calculation the heritability is defined for a particular population and says nothing about environments in other populations. White males born in the United States were the tallest in the world in the mid-19th century and about 9 cm taller than Dutch males. At the end of the 20th century, although the height of males in the United States had increased, many European countries had overtaken them and Dutch males are now approximately 5 cm taller than white US males, a trend that is likely to be environmental rather than genetic in origin.

An open-access vrsion of the article is here. I hope that's informative. Generalrelative (talk) 03:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't mean that they read all of the sources cited in the FAQ from start to finish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk • contribs) 13:34, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Oooo, spooky goalposts, moving from one place to another! And new responses go to the bottom and need to be signed. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Comment about goalposts struck. I have read the entire FAQ, with all the sources provided in it, from start to finish and I can only assume that you either haven't done the same together show that that was part of the goalposts from the start. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

• Augh! I'm caught! I've never read a word of the FAQ. You got me. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 05:51, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Do people really not understand what I'm saying? None of what Generalrelative has cited has anything to do with the point that I'm making. I'll try to put it in different words. Let's say the variance in the genetically determined intelligence of a single person is $\sigma ^{2}$. From the definition of variance, it follows that the variance of a sample mean of a group of people is $\sigma ^{2}/n$, where n is the number of people in the group. Since this variance is non-zero, and since intelligence is a continuous (not discrete) quantity, it is then implied that the probability of two sample means ─ even if taken from the same parent population ─ of being exactly the same is zero. So it is in fact impossible for there not to be any genetic differences between any two groups of people. Once again, this conclusion is trivially true and follows directly from the assumption that intelligence is a continuous quantity. One doesn't need any knowledge in genetics to reach this conclusion. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I think we understand quite well what you're saying. You're saying that for statistical reasons between any two sets of people there will be a genetic difference in average intelligence. For example, let X be the set of people whose last names begin with the odd-numbered letters A,C,E,G,..., and let Y be the set of people whose last names begin with the even-numbered letters B,D,F,H,.... So, according to you, it must be the case that either the X people are genetically superior to the Y people in intelligence, or else the Y people are genetically superior to the X people in intelligence? NightHeron (talk) 13:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Terms like "genetically superior" are not very rigorous. In rigorous terms, the average innate/genetic intelligence of the X people is higher than that of the Y people, or vice versa. And that's not according to me ─ that's according to some very basic statistics. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

And the fact that what you call "very basic statistics" leads to an absurd, obviously wrong conclusion when applied to NightHeron's example does not bother you? Maybe your understanding af basic statistics is wrong? This happens to people, you know.

I think we should just keep using WP:RS instead of your WP:OR. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Given that I'm a statistician by profession, yeah, I clearly should book up on basic statistics. Would you be willing to share your immaculate statistical understanding with me? Maybe you can teach me how to, in cases where mathematically provable results contradict our intuition, claim that maths is wrong and that it's our intuition that's right? Is that the secret to statistics that has evaded me for so long?

In all seriousness, I'd like to hear why you think my conclusion is "obviously wrong". It seems pretty intuitive. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The result was that the first letter of my last name is genetically connected to my intelligence.

Now is the time to tell us what you actually mean by "genetic differences". Is it just the unavoidable statistical fluctuations? Essentially, "different numbers are different"? Measurements of the X and Y IQs yield slightly different numbers, but the difference gets tinier and tinier with increasing sample size? Then, yes, you are right! Everybody here agrees! Clap. Clap. Clap.

Or do you mean "genetic differences based on a real, measureable, reproduceable effect with real-life consequences, well outside the white noise"? In that case, you will need more than trivially true statements. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. As you said, everybody here agrees with this, right? So then why is this exact statement in the article, and the moment that I tried to change it to make it not trivially false, my edits got immediately reverted? I must be missing something major here. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Yes, you seem to have gotten the consensus position precisely backwards here. It is as geneticist / neuroscientist Kevin Mitchell says (quoted in the FAQ): "While genetic variation may help to explain why one person is more intelligent than another, there are unlikely to be stable and systematic genetic differences that make one population more intelligent than the next." Assuming that individual genetic differences in intelligence imply the existence of group-level genetic differences in intelligence is a fallacy, which was the point of the bit I quoted for you above. The FAQ cites several other RSs which state this explicitly, so if you've read them all already you should be familiar. Generalrelative (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Generalrelative: As much as like to keep my tone respectful, this is getting a little bit frustrating. Did you bother reading anything that I've written after your initial reply? Clearly I am not advocating that systematic genetic differences are likely. My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. So, for example, the average genetic difference in IQ between Americans and Nigerians might be 0.001 now; in a couple of generation's time, it might be -0.002; and 200 years ago, it might have been 0.003. For a thousandth time, this statement is not a matter of personal opinion or consensus ─ it's a trivially true fact that is logically implicit from the assumption that genetics influences intelligence at an individual level (which we all agree it does). How can I make my point any clearer? Tell me? Which part of what I said is confusing or ambiguous? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:31, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

If what you say is true, it tells us precisely nothing about any relationship between race and intelligence. It is a statement about statistical noise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:38, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

But it does make the statement "genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups, and observed differences are therefore environmental in origin" false. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are not an exercise in sophistry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: No it does not. Just to unpack a bit: the scientific consensus is that even if such random fluctuations exist they are not detectable by any means that have yet been tried, and therefore they explain nothing (whether even minute fluctuations are likely to exist at all is a matter of controversy among geneticists, but there is strong consensus that current evidence gives no indication what they might be if they do exist). This means that the statement in question –– i.e. "the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between racial groups" –– is not a falsity as you claim but rather an accurate description of the case. The bit about "environmental in origin" is summarizing another part of the article's main body. Please refer to WP:NOTSYNTH and MOS:LEAD if you are curious about why these statements are fused into a single sentence in the lead. Generalrelative (talk) 16:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

In other words, if we haven't detected something, that necessarily implies that this something has no explanatory power. Is this an accurate analysis of what you're saying here? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 16:59, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: You might think of it this way (leaving out lots of nuance and context for the sake of simplicity):

1) There is a statistically significant observed gap in average IQ test performance between e.g. Black and White Americans.

2) Even the most advanced genetic arguments advanced by racial hereditarians fail to show that White Americans are more likely to enjoy a genetic advantage in IQ than Black Americans; indeed, both groups are equally likely to enjoy such an advantage, if such an advantage does exist, based on all currently available information. [17] Some geneticists, notably David Kaiser, believe that small yet detectable differences in cognitive ability may be found in the future, but crucially even he makes clear that we have absolutely no clue which groups will be found to be genetically favored. [18] Those hereditarians who have claimed to detect a positive signal favoring White people have been roundly debunked on both theoretical and empirical grounds by genetics professionals.

3) Thus, if Black Americans are just as likely to be genetically favored in terms of IQ test performance as White Americans, genetic differences do not explain the observed difference in IQ test performance between these groups. And you don't have to take my word for it. Here's Ewan Birney et al.: "In reality for most traits, including IQ, it is not only unclear that genetic variation explains differences between populations, it is also unlikely." [19] And here's Stephen Ceci and Wendy Williams: "There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences." [20]

4) Note that this argument runs parallel to another, similar argument about the potential scale of such differences, which all genetics professionals agree must be very small if they do exist, i.e. much smaller than observed group-level differences in IQ test performance.

Generalrelative (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Maxipups Mamsipupsovich, it's clear to me that you're not doing OR here. Instead, you're discussing an aspect of genetics from the standpoint of statistics and in doing so, missing some important considerations. Your reasoning is sound enough, but you're not following it through before you arrive at a conclusion. You're just working out the statistics and then completely ignoring all the genetics.

The bottom line is that the statement "genetics does explain the intellectual differences between X and Y, and these differences are hence environmental in origin" is a complete falsity. Absolutely nothing you have argued here supports this claim, and there is no evidence which supports it, and quite a bit of evidence which (as I've already pointed out) directly contradicts it.

My argument is that random fluctuations in the mean level of intelligence mean that, in any two groups at any given time, the mean level of intelligence will necessarily be different. We're all in agreement on that point. The problem is that this article is about the differences between racial groups, not the differences between any arbitrary group. We have to contrast the subject of this article with the expected delta between arbitrary groups in order to stay on topic. Nobody's arguing that the range of human intelligence is not caused by genetics. The research, as well as the consensus of both the scientific community and the Wikipedia community is that the differences between the delta of racial groups and the delta between arbitrary groups is not genetic.

Also, for the record, I have, in fact, read and made sure I understood each and every reference used in that FAQ, as well as the large majority of sources used in this article, many of which I have purchased over the past 5 years in order to fully understand the subject. I first read this article believing some very different things about the subject than I now know to be true, and the FAQ is the direct result of the years-long deep dive I took into this. So your continual insistence that I don't understand the FAQ which, again, I wrote is not only a remarkably stupid line of argumentation, it's a violation of our behavioral guidelines to continue to insist that I must not know what I'm talking about if I disagree with you. I strongly advise you to drop it, because all it's accomplishing is reflecting poorly upon your attitude and understanding.

Now, I've said my piece. I won't continue to argue with you. It's quite clear that you don't have consensus for your edits. You can accept that, or you can continue to litigate it, which will very quickly become disruptive. I advise you to do the former. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

@MjolnirPants: I'll start off by saying that I appreciate your generally respectful tone. What I appreciate slightly less is your putting words in my mouth and claiming that I not only opined that you don't understand the FAQ, but insisted (!) on this ─ given I have never expressed such a sentiment to begin with (read carefully ─ I said that you either didn't study all the sources in the FAQ or misinterpreted what I was saying; it turns out it was the latter). But that's okay.

Anyway, I'm still far from convinced. Since we're all in agreement that at least some (even if a minute amount) of the differences in IQ test performance are genetic, to me, this renders the phrase "observed differences [in IQ test performance] are therefore environmental in origin" at least partially untrue. These observed differences are predominantly or almost entirely environmental, but they can never be 100% such. Equally, genetics (random idiosyncratic genetic mutations) will always explain at least some tiny percentage of these differences.

If I may, I'll explain why I'm so fussed about this seemingly insignificant detail. It is already a pretty popular opinion out in the public that, since Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, it can't at all be trusted and is very unreliable ─ it is especially popular among conservatives, whose views often conflict with the scientific consensus and are hence criticised on Wikipedia. The amount of public trust in science (at least among conservatives) is also low. People will routinely say stuff like "those scientists you speak of say nothing became something and exploded, how can you trust those idiots?". For people like that, a single notable case of bad logic is sufficient to sway them from a place of moderate trust in science and a reasonable degree of scepticism towards Wikipedia articles to complete devotion to conspiracy theories/pseudoscience and fanatical rejection of Wikipedia. They'll see the sentence in the lede that I keep referring to and think "wait, but that's literally impossible, those scientists will come up with anything to justify their liberal bias! If they can't even get basic logic right, how could I possibly trust them on matters that involve more complex logic?" ─ or they'll think the same and instead come to the conclusion that it's not the scientists who cannot be trusted but Wikipedia. There's every chance something like this might have already happened ─ likely many times over. I would not at all be surprised to learn that this single sentence has already created thousands of fanatical anti-Wikipediists or subscribers to the idea that IQ differences between populations are mostly genetic. That's why I think we need to be very careful with such strong statements as the one that I'm challenging. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Maxipups Mamsipupsovich, Your logic only works if the group genetic differences are large enough to be observed with an IQ test. If a given test is good to (for example) 3 significant figures, and the genetic difference is somewhere out in the 5th or 6th digit, then it would not contribute to the observed differences. MrOllie (talk) 02:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

@Maxipups Mamsipupsovich: Are you suggesting as an alternative wording like "Differences large enough to be measurable are entirely environmental in origin" or "Environmental factors explain the entirety of differences that are observable with IQ tests" or some such? Leijurv (talk) 02:45, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

you [..] misinterpreted what I was saying is usually followed by a clarification of the obviously ambivalently worded statement that has been misinterpreted.

I find your statement we're all in agreement that at least some (even if a minute amount) of the differences in IQ test performance are genetic confusing. The FAQ does not say it is just a minute amount, and Heritability of IQ says IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component.

But you keep omitting the crucial part of the sentence you claim to be false again and again. I highlighted it here: Extensive evidence has been published which indicates that observed differences in IQ test performance between racial groups are environmental in origin. (Unless you mean a different sentence. I cannot tell.)

These observed differences are predominantly or almost entirely environmental, but they can never be 100% such Are you really saying the equivalent of "it is false that the earth is round, it is a geoid"?

When people misunderstand what I say, I try to say it a different way. And, instead of providing a longish justification talking about the low trust idiots have in Wikipedia because it tells them things they do not want to believe (we already knew that, and there is no way to change that, except turning the idiots into half-idiots), you should rather say exactly what you want to change into what. For that purpose, it is very helpful to use exact quotes instead of paraphrasing. I looked up your reverted changes to the FAQ, but could not find any connection to what you are saying in this section. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Hob, I advice leaving this. This editor is clearly determined to ignore anything we say. There's a clear consensus here, no point in handing this fellow fresh sticks long after the horse is dead. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

You are probably right. But at least I got a new variation on the dead horse thing out of it: "handing this fellow fresh sticks". --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

"Fresh sticks! Get ya pipin' hot fresh sticks heeya!" ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:38, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

@MPants at work: Nice passive aggression there, Mjolnir. It seems like my compliment of your respectful tone came too soon. I don't understand how I could possibly take this as an insult haha. I think it was a good explanation Yeah, clearly I'm determined to ignore everything you say. Because the only way that other people can disagree with you is if they're stubborn douchebags who will never change their minds about anything. Right. I'll just remind you that neither you nor Hob has presented a single coherent argument against my proposal beyond pedantry (like Hob's entire last comment) and unhelpful assumptions (like your accusation of my insisting on you not understanding the FAQ, despite me never having done so). Neither of you have said anything of substance on this thread that I could possibly listen to. The only user who has even attempted to point out flaws in my reasoning is Generalrelative (and even their point, while fair and one I haven't considered, does not adress the crux of my argument, which is that there is a possibility that observed differences in IQ between racial groups are explained in some small part by genetics ─ whether this possibility is certain or has an only 50% chance of being true). Given your suggestion that the horse that is this thread is dead, I am not going to reply to either them or you (or Hob, for that matter), but rest assured that I am willing to listen to anyone who makes a good point and am very happy to change my mind about anything. I still find the fact that even something as overtly obvious as the point that I'm making is being resisted here on Wikipedia a bit ridiculous and, frankly, quite worrying, but oh well. I'll take your advice, accept that controversial topics on Wikipedia will never stop being a problem, and move on. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:24, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I see you've decided to add to the list of WP:ASPERSIONS you've been throwing. I, personally, wouldn't take that route, but you go right ahead and see how that works out for you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:27, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I, personally, wouldn't take that route *Cough* That's *cough* debatable *cough* to say the least *cough*. That's at least as many aspersions as I have ever cast on anyone here on Wikipedia in my one year of editing. I'm sure that if casting aspersions is really an issue, you're in more danger than I am. That said, if you've got any genuine suggestions as to how I can improve as an editor, I'm willing to listen. It would be silly of me not to, given you presumably know this place ─ and how things work around here ─ much better than I do. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 19:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

FAQ edit

I made this edit on the FAQ page, as well as this one. Both edits got immediately reverted by user:NorthBySouthBaranof without explanation; naturally, I asked them for one on the talk page, but they haven't responded yet, and I thought I'd get a quicker response here. The first of my edits addresses the fact that the current version is slightly misleading, as it is written in such a way which is likely to mislead the reader into thinking that IQ is not a valid measure of any form of intelligence (especially by answering the question "doesn't IQ measure intelligence" with "not exactly"). It is generally agreed upon that this is not the case, and that IQ does actually measure some types of intelligence ─ just not all (as is actually explained by one of the sources provided in the FAQ). So my edit cleared up this confusion without changing the character of the answer, which conveys that IQ is not an all-encompassing measure of intelligence. The second edit replaced a dubious, America-centric example of Native Americans having the same features as Europeans (even though their phenotype is arguably more similar to that of East Asians) with a much clearer, more global example of North Indians, who actually came from the same Indo-European population as Europeans, so their connection to Europeans is unmistakable. Do people agree with NBSB's decision to revert both of these edits? Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 12:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Your first edit was not an improvement over the earlier text, because how accurately or reliably IQ measures any aspect of intelligence is open to debate. As with other tests, performance on IQ tests depends on many factors other than what the test was designed to measure. We cannot state as a fact that they're "valid and reliable". Your rationale for the second edit is very weak. "America-centrism" was not a problem in the text. The only America reference in the passage is to Native Americans. When people complain of Wikipedia having disproportionate coverage of the US, they're not talking about coverage of the indigenous population that was displaced by European colonialism. NightHeron (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. From the article on IQ, "While IQ tests are generally considered to measure some forms of intelligence, they may fail to serve as an accurate measure of broader definitions of human intelligence inclusive of creativity and social intelligence". And, from one of the sources described in the FAQ as a statement by a group of prominent geneticists, "Critics often assert that it is an oversimplified metric applied to a far-too-complex set of behaviours, that the cultural-specificity of tests renders them useless, or that IQ tests really only measure how good people are at doing IQ tests. Although an IQ score is far from a perfect measure, it does an excellent job of correlating with, and predicting, many educational, occupational, and health-related outcomes. IQ does not tell us everything that anyone could want to know about human intelligence – but because definitions of “intelligence” vary so widely, no measure could possibly meet that challenge".

Furthermore, the reliability of IQ tests is known to be very high and is certainly not up to debate. Once again, I direct you to the article on Intelligence quotient, where this is explained in more detail.

All in all, that IQ tests are valid and reliable predictors of the types of intelligence associated with e.g. educational attainment and financial success is a well-documented fact that is barely disputable.

As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans?

That America-centrism wasn't a problem in the text is a sentiment that you have (as an American?), but I, as a non-American, don't share it. Most people outside of the US will not be familiar with what Native Americans look like, while the same cannot be said about North Indians, whose appearance more people around the world are likely to relate to. However, America-centrism wasn't even the main issue that I was addressing ─ that would be the fact that Native Americans really don't have similar features to Europeans, with North Indians being a far closer match. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 14:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

As to my second edit, I don't really understand why my rationale is weak. Surely it's uncontroversial that North Indians resemble Europeans more than Native Americans do, given that Native Americans descended from Asia, while North Indians descended from the same population as Europeans? Listen, this is not an insult. I'll explain in as much detail as you need if you would like, but this quote right here demonstrates very conclusively that the you just completely missed the point of that answer.

The examples were chosen carefully: Yes, North Indians do resemble Europeans in terms of facial structure more than Native Americans, and yes, that's precisely because they're more closely related. But the whole point of the sentence was to show that there's a range a facial features that remains mostly constant across a large swathe of racial groups, which in turn helps illustrate how random and disconnected the traits that define race are.

As to your first edit: I don't really have a problem with it. It's accurate enough. It's approaching the answer from a different direction, but it's not a complete 180° turn, so it's not really undermining the overall character of the FAQ. I don't think it's really an improvement mind, but if you prefer it, and you can convince a few other editors to support it, I'll certainly not contest it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand how I could possibly take this as an insult haha. I think it was a good explanation. If the point was that, even given completely different genetic lineages, the facial features can still be similar, I can understand why Native Americans are a better fit than North Indians. Although I still think that saying that Native Americans have similar facial features to Europeans a bit of a stretch, and indeed that Generalrelative's aboriginal Australian example is much better (yes, it is also in the FAQ), I understand now why my second edit wasn't helpful. Maxipups Mamsipupsovich (talk) 02:07, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Although I still think that saying that Native Americans have similar facial features to Europeans a bit of a stretch, As a person of mixed European and Native American ancestry; I disagree, and my family photo albums do, as well. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:06, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

(ec) The statement in wikivoice that IQ tests are "valid and reliable" is very misleading without many caveats and qualifications. Given many assumptions about the people taking the tests and the circumstances, perhaps. But that doesn't mean that the statement is true in the real world. It's well known that performance on IQ tests depends on many things not related to cognitive ability, such as whether one is in good health or sick at the time, whether one is well fed or malnourished, whether one had a good night's sleep the night before or suffered from insomnia, whether one is highly motivated to do well (e.g., it's being used to screen candidates for a job) or has no particular motivation to do well, whether one is distracted or able to concentrate, whether the test is given in one's mother tongue or in a 2nd or 3rd language, whether one has had a lot of prior experience taking IQ type tests or whether this is the first multiple-choice test one has ever taken.

As far as which racial or population groups have facial appearances close to other groups, I think the point of the FAQ is that this is subjective. Race is a social construct, and people are often classified by self-identification. It's not surprising that there can be disagreement on who looks like whom. A large proportion of the population is of mixed ancestry. Concerning your proposal to replace "Native American" by "North Indian", this is the first I've heard that "North Indian" is a term for a racial group. Do you have RS that use that term in racial classifications? In any case, you haven't made a convincing argument that referring to "Native Americans" is an example of Wikipedia's excessive coverage of the US. NightHeron (talk) 18:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes and.... Just to throw out another explanatory example: Australian Aboriginal Peoples have notable phenotypic similarities with many Sub-Saharan African Peoples (dark skin, broad noses, curly hair) which are in no way indicative of an especially close phylogenetic relationship. Indeed, Australian Aboriginal Peoples are more closely related to Norwegians phylogenetically than either are to, say, Bantu-speaking populations in Africa. Generalrelative (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I think (unless someone changed it) this is even mentioned in the FAQ. Same question, or the next one. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)