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== Please clarify "mean maximum" vs "average high" ==
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:I've noticed "Mean maximum" and "Mean daily maximum" on Wikipedia lately. I don't understand what they mean. Can anyone provide a formula? [[Special:Contributions/24.52.231.186|24.52.231.186]] ([[User talk:24.52.231.186|talk]]) 03:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
::It looks like a lot of people are coming here with the exact same question--I know I am! Skimming through the comments above, it looks like there is quite the debate on this. I don't think anyone really cares about the hottest temperature reached in a given month, though most people would like to know what the typical high temperature for a month is--which is what has always been listed for 'average high'--I definitely think you should just keep it simple and continue with what has always been listed--'average low' and 'average high.' [[Special:Contributions/98.97.141.180|98.97.141.180]] ([[User talk:98.97.141.180|talk]]) 00:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
:::I agree with this comment 100%. The people making the decisions on nomenclature are myopic and seem to truely, but erroneously, believe that all Wikipedia users are as pedantic as themselves and do not want, or even need, to just see the "average high" and "average low" for any given month.
:::This apparent "low brow" naming is well understood by the majority of people I've polled at work and in the pub, and has sufficed for eons.
:::The biggest gripe has been that people do not wish to go searching Google for explanations on the difference between "mean maximum", "mean daily maximun" and "daily mean".
:::It feels like the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
:::The old adage,if it ain't broke don't fix it would seem to be entirely apt here. [[User:Jonda2282|Jonda2282]] ([[User talk:Jonda2282|talk]]) 14:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
::::A few things to remember.
::::First, the old adage "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" applies here. Especially when you are trying to persuade Wikipedia editors, who are freely donating their time, to change to some other terminology. In other words people will respond better when you treat them with the respect that I'm sure you would like to receive.
::::Second, the "people making the decisions on nomenclature are" not Wikipedia editors. The wording comes from meteorological organizations and from the [[World Meteorological Organization]]. Perhaps you should tell them they are "myopic" and inquire what they believe about Wikipedia readers.
::::Third, what you, or I want to see in the infobox is immaterial. The information is available from meteorological organizations and consensus, of Wikipedia editors, decides what is used. I could say that I surveyed the people at my work and they all though it was some of the best information on Wikipedia. Of course the 8 people at work who all do weather observations for a living are probably a bit biased.
::::Fourth, pointing out "it's bad" or "it's unclear" and not giving suggestions for improvement isn't helpful in the long run. We could use https://collaboration.cmc.ec.gc.ca/cmc/climate/Normals/Canadian_Climate_Normals_1991_2020_Calculation_Information.pdf as the basis for an explanation of what is meant by mean daily maximum. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] (solidly non-human), [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Huliva]] 22:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
==Solar exposure MJ/m2==
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As solar energy is increasingly important this is now often collected by meteorology organisations.
== class="notheme" ==
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{{ping|Seddon}} You edited [[Module:Weather box/row]] on 3 April 2023 ([[Special:Diff/1147938351|diff]]) to add class="notheme" to each row of the table output. The edit summary was "Temporary fix to solve theming in Page Content Service". I don't want a full explanation but can you outline what that is about? Presumably the temporary fix is still needed? I'm planning to update the module soon and am trying to understand changes since I last examined the module. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 04:49, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
:It has been confirmed ([[Special:Diff/1188753801|diff]]) that notheme is permanently wanted in [[Module:Weather box/row]]. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 23:49, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
== possible sunshine ==
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::In general, I am personally very uncomfortable with the terminology of the weather box and its rather awkward use of technical language; but if that has to remain unchanged, I believe we should at least give the average reader some guidance. [[User:Uness232|Uness232]] ([[User talk:Uness232|talk]]) 06:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
:::Maybe the tooltip would actually make sense here. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 19:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
::::If using tooltips, returning average high/low for daily minimum/maximum would make those rows easier to distinguish from this one. In fact in some countries average highs and lows are computed based on three measurements per day so that statistics don't differ in method from historical records, so they're not daily minimums and maximums at all. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 04:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
::::: The old phrasing made no sense whatsoever. "Average high" and "mean maximum" are synonymous. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 04:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::I've seen "high" on many weather websites, but "daily maximum" only on Wikipedia and the higher of 14:00 and 21:00 measurements is unlikely to be close to the daily maximum. This is the procedure used to compile statistics in my country (to make them comparable to 1800's records). "High" and "low" are vague as necessary to be appropriate for this. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 05:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::We could make it "average high" and "average daily high", I suppose. But hard no to using "average" vs "mean" or "high" vs "maximum" to distinguish the time periods they're averaged over. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 05:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::I don't think WMO has standards for monthly and yearly highs/lows. My country's service doesn't release this data publicly. I assume, where it's released, it's compiled from more recent sources and probably based on hourly measurements. 2*30 or 24*30 measurements is obviously a much more stable sample than two measurements. I don't think it's wrong to assume it's close to real maximum/minimum. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 06:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::: Whether the data is ''accurate'' is a separate question. It still makes no sense at all to distinguish "average high" from "mean maximum"; they mean exactly the same thing. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 07:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::The data is entirely accurate. The methodology is what isn't related to the day's record maximum and record minimum. Countries didn't have resources to make measurements 24 times a day from the beginning and meteorologists do not call these observations "minimum" and "maximum".
::::::::::The 7:00, 14:00 and 21:00 temperatures are more useful than the minimum and maximum, too. Most people are asleep at the daily minimum, stay inside at the hottest part of the day near sunset and don't go to bed as soon as the sun sets. It makes much more sense to observe and discuss "typical (average/mean) high" for afternoon hours and "typical (mean/average) low" for early morning hours, than daily "average/mean minimum" and "average/mean maximum" which people avoid on purpose.
::::::::::What makes least sense is writing "daily minimum" and "daily maximum" for values compiled from previously agreed times and ambiguously writing "record high" and "record low" for values directly from hourly or more often measurements. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 04:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::: Look, it's certainly possible that there are nuances I haven't followed. I'm not a meteorologist. But what I'm fairly sure of is that, whatever nuances there are, you're not going to capture them by using "high" distinctively from "maximum", or "average" distinctively from "mean". That made no sense at all. --[[User:Trovatore|Trovatore]] ([[User talk:Trovatore|talk]]) 01:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::: ''Countries didn't have resources to make measurements 24 times a day from the beginning and meteorologists do not call these observations "minimum" and "maximum".''
:::::::::::: ''The 7:00, 14:00 and 21:00 temperatures are more useful than the minimum and maximum, too.''
:::::::::::: And which countries exactly use this term?Most national meteorological agencies I saw use Daily Maximum/Minimum. Almost none of them use high/low expressions, except for the highest and lowest records. I don't remember if they even mentioned the time of the day they recorded temperatures so using hourly observations would have no use in many countries’ articles either.[[User:PAper GOL|PAper GOL]] ([[User talk:PAper GOL|talk]]) 03:40, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] I am not sure if complete conceptual accuracy is possible (or even desirable) in naming many of these. Technically speaking, in many cases, "daily mean" is also not a proper daily mean, but the average of the daily max and min. [[User:Uness232|Uness232]] ([[User talk:Uness232|talk]]) 03:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Exactly. The "daily mean" is always an [[average]], but not always a [[arithmetic mean|mean]] over 24 hours. For example in Croatia the average is calculated using 7:00, 14:00 and 21:00 temperatures (the last is counted twice). High and low are also not always daily "maximum"/"minimum" even when the published statistics are based on hourly temperatures. Measurements can be carried out every 1-5 minutes but when you release data based on such short intervals and compare it to 50-150 year old data, you can't conclude anything about climate change. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 23:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::BTW I'm not here to deny climate change. Europe is one of the most impacted parts of the planet by the climate change. But we're only helping conspiracists if people have to ask here what is exactly the data we gave them and why we gave them '''this''' data (and didn't invent a media mess about "daily records" for each day in each month on some station that has only functioned since 1980). [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 23:16, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::As I mentioned before, there are several countries that officially use maximum/minimum average temperature, and I have never seen any use high/low expressions, and many of them do not publish hourly observations.
:::::::::::[http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_040913_All.shtml This example] from Australia, has maximum and minimum temps clearly defined here (and records are from observations and not ambiguous). It does have hourly observations (at 9:00 and 15:00 local) instead of a daily mean. But many others do not say if their average value is a mean of hourly observations, like [https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/us-climate-normals/#dataset=normals-monthly&timeframe=30&location=GA&station=USW00053819] this one from the US.
:::::::::::''We're only helping conspiracists if people have to ask here what is exactly the data we gave them and why we gave them '''this''' data (and didn't invent a media mess about "daily records" for each day in each month on some station that has only functioned since 1980).''
:::::::::::This comment was not really clear to me; But I can safely say that most of the major weather stations across the world have been active since the 1960s and before, not to mention the cities in US, Australia etc. that have records since the 19th century.[[User:PAper GOL|PAper GOL]] ([[User talk:PAper GOL|talk]]) 16:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::Here's a source for how the mean temperature is calculated in Croatia (in order to make it comparable with 19th century measurements which weren't carried out every hour on every station): [https://meteo.hr/klima.php?section=klima_pracenje¶m=srednja_temperatura average temperature] = (7.00 temperature + 14.00 temperature + 2 * 21.00 temperature) / 4. This is a [[weighted average]], not a [[mean]].
::::::::::::"Average" is a less specific word and includes both that, real daily mean and other non-mean calculations like [https://library.wmo.int/viewer/43912/download?file=wmo-td_341_en.pdf&type=pdf&navigator=1 (max+min)/2 which WMO requires]. (I'm not sure what you mean by "ambiguous" and I'm not going to presume, the records I'm talking about are also all from observations. You don't need imaginary records to use different averaging methods and come up with different average temperatures.)
::::::::::::Even if you redefine "mean" as including this, then the change from "average" to "mean" was pointless. It should be reverted, since it creates an incorrect but natural (at least for me) assumption that the "daily mean" means [[arithmetic mean]]. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 16:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Got the the mean vs. average thing, I believe other countries use the same pattern as well(maybe in different times of the day), still the high/low expression are not quite superior to maximum/minimum as official organizations do not use those terms.(in English language at least)
:::::::::::::''What makes least sense is ambiguously writing "record high" and "record low" for values directly from hourly or more often measurements.''
:::::::::::::This comment was the reason I used the term "ambiguous". The values used for record high/low are coming from observations which were stated as the highest/lowest temperature ever recorded in a month. If the ambiguous part is just the phrase, then I think changing it to '''absolute max/min''' or '''absolute high/low''' is an option to consider.
:::::::::::::For records/extremes it may not be needed to have hourly observation, however. If I remember correctly, there is a special type of thermometer which can show the 24-hour max/min temperature without the need of using hourly observations; but that is used for gardening and I don't know if a device with the same mechanism exists in meteorology or not.[[User:PAper GOL|PAper GOL]] ([[User talk:PAper GOL|talk]]) 16:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::::<br>
::::::::::::Regarding the quote: Wikipedia is presenting an [[average]] (calculated by one of several different methods) as a [[mean]]. This is a mistake, and it matters because media produces a lot of garbage information about weather and climate. For example, every US weather website I visit for some reason writes about "daily records" which are based on a sample of at best 60-150 days or about 2-5 years of monthly measurements, on thousands of stations often in places of 1,000 people or less. Obviously dozens of minor weather events every single year are going to produce such "daily records", which climate change deniers use to claim that climate is getting colder or not changing, or that all climate info everywhere is just sensationalist press. This is why Wikipedia should try to use words that are instantly relatable, but also don't create confusion. [[User:IvicaInsomniac|IvicaInsomniac]] ([[User talk:IvicaInsomniac|talk]]) 16:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
::I guess it’s better to call it '''average extreme maximum/high''' and '''average extreme minimum/low.'''
::At least in US it is calculated by using the monthly extreme recorded in multiple years and averaging them out.[[User:PAper GOL|PAper GOL]] ([[User talk:PAper GOL|talk]]) 04:17, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
== Color of February precipitation box is slightly darker than it should be. ==
Throughout my time editing climate sections, I've often noticed that the color of the precipitation box for February is darker than it should be. Higher precipitation values should result in a darker color (and lower values, lighter colors), but sometimes this is not the case. For example, in [[Template:Atlanta weatherbox]], although February precipitation has a value 0.13 inches lower than March, it's lightness value is 0.02 lower than March (the color should be lighter, and should thus have a higher lightness value, but it doesn't). This is a very subtle example (other examples that may be more obvious to the naked eye elude my memory). Or maybe the other months are lighter than they should be. Either way, there's something wrong (or maybe I'm just going crazy and the colors are how they are supposed to be).
As I'm writing this, I now realize that the effect is much more obvious in the snowfall values (which I believe may be due to the fact that the metric units used for snow data in weatherboxes is often an order of magnitude greater than used for other precipitation values, e.g. cm instead of mm, and thus the effect of the error is amplified tenfold). For example, in the weatherbox for [[Great Falls, Montana]], February and March have the same value for average snowfall, but the color for the February snow cell/box is noticeably darker. [[User:Akamaikai|Akamaikai]] ([[User talk:Akamaikai|talk]]) 22:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
:February has about 28.25 days, on average. March has 31. Compare:
:'''Feb and Mar same total snowfall per month:'''
{{Weather box
|location = Great Falls, Montana ([[Great Falls International Airport|Great Falls Int'l]]), 1991–2020 normals,{{efn|Mean monthly maxima and minima (i.e. the expected highest and lowest temperature readings at any point during the year or given month) calculated based on data at said location from 1991 to 2020.}} extremes 1891–present
|single line = Y
|Jul snow inch = 0.0
|Aug snow inch = 0.3
|Sep snow inch = 0.8
|Oct snow inch = 5.2
|Nov snow inch = 9.2
|Dec snow inch = 9.6
|Jan snow inch = 9.2
|Feb snow inch = 10.1
|Mar snow inch = 10.1
|Apr snow inch = 9.4
|May snow inch = 1.9
|Jun snow inch = 0.3
}}
:'''Feb and Mar same snowfall per day:'''
{{Weather box
|location = Great Falls, Montana ([[Great Falls International Airport|Great Falls Int'l]]), 1991–2020 normals,{{efn|Mean monthly maxima and minima (i.e. the expected highest and lowest temperature readings at any point during the year or given month) calculated based on data at said location from 1991 to 2020.}} extremes 1891–present
|single line = Y
|Jul snow inch = 0.0
|Aug snow inch = 0.3
|Sep snow inch = 0.8
|Oct snow inch = 5.2
|Nov snow inch = 9.2
|Dec snow inch = 9.6
|Jan snow inch = 9.2
|Feb snow inch = 10.1
|Mar snow inch = 11.1
|Apr snow inch = 9.4
|May snow inch = 1.9
|Jun snow inch = 0.3
}}
:Does that help? – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 02:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
::So the coloring is also based off of how many days are in the month? Also in the second one February is still darker than March. [[User:Akamaikai|Akamaikai]] ([[User talk:Akamaikai|talk]]) 16:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, it is based on a daily rate rather than a cumulative amount per month. As for the color difference, it looks like February is #000054 and March is #00005C, which is a tiny difference that I would chalk up to rounding. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 17:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
{{notelist-talk}}
::See also [[Template_talk:Weather_box/Archive_2#Misleading_colours_for_precipitation|this archive thread]] (2008) and [[Template_talk:Weather_box/Archive_8#Snow_row_coloring_unequal_across_months|this archive thread]] (2018) and the "month_adj" function in [[Module:Weather box/row]]. – [[User:Jonesey95|Jonesey95]] ([[User talk:Jonesey95|talk]]) 03:18, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
== Maximum of only 2 sources for weather boxes ==
I brought up how I was unable to add a third source for a weather box on the wiki help desk and was told that the maximum amount of sources is 2 and advised that if I want to suggest it be changed to allow a further source to bring it up here.
In my past couple of weeks editing in wikipedia I have had to give up on improving many weather boxes where I may have additional data such as temperature records or they have incomplete data as there are already 2 sources. If weather boxes could have at least 3 sources that would solve this problem. Is there a reason why the maximum is 2? [[User:Javier1957|Javier1957]] ([[User talk:Javier1957|talk]]) 04:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:See if [[Template talk:Weather box/Archive 9#More than 2 sources?]] works. It's limited to two only because no one has got around to enhancing it although I think some previous discussions have shown that some people prefer to use only the first source line. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 06:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::Thank you. I looked at the link you sent but I wasn't able to see how those pages included more than 2 sources as they are written only as "{'{Edmonton City Center weatherbox}}" for example. Are you able to explain or send me a link to somewhere to learn how to put multiple in the first source line? Earlier I spent an hour or so playing around but I wasn't successful. Cheers
::[[User:Javier1957|Javier1957]] ([[User talk:Javier1957|talk]]) 09:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Now that I look at it, I see that it is very ugly. A quick outline is that you would click, for example, the [[Edmonton#Climate]] link. The first weatherbox has various sources and you need to see the wikitext that was used to generate them. Click "Edit" next to the Climate heading. Searching through that shows that the wikitext is not there. Instead, we see <code><nowiki>{{Edmonton City Centre weatherbox}}</nowiki></code>. That is a [[Help:Template|template]]. The easiest way to see them is to now click Preview. Near the bottom of the screen you might be able to see "Templates used in this preview" where you can find [[Template:Edmonton City Centre weatherbox]]. Clicking that shows the template which you can edit to see the wikitext. It's a real mess and I would never have been able to follow it until I had been doing this sort of thing for months. It looks like this:
:::<code><nowiki>|source 1 = TEXT1<ref>REF1</ref>, TEXT2<ref>REF2</ref>, TEXT3<ref>REF3</ref></nowiki></code>
:::[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
::::Thank you for your help. I've only been editing for a couple of weeks so it was very difficult for me to follow but the way you have written it worked well and I was able to add more than 2 sources. Cheers [[User:Javier1957|Javier1957]] ([[User talk:Javier1957|talk]]) 23:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
:::Also check {{tl|Yellowknife weatherbox}} which has three sources as "source 1" (all to Environment and Climate Change Canada or ECCC) and one source for "source 2" because it is a different organization from the first. [[User:CambridgeBayWeather|CambridgeBayWeather]] (solidly non-human), [[User talk:CambridgeBayWeather|Uqaqtuq (talk)]], [[Special:Contributions/CambridgeBayWeather|Huliva]] 19:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
== "Mean maximum" and "Mean daily maximum" are confusing ==
Yes I know this has been discussed before, but it's still an issue. I've spent 30-40mins reading comments and looking up parameter text and template docs just figuring out what these two row descriptions are meant to mean. My suggestion is to align the template text with the parameter text. So "Mean maximum" becomes "Average record high" and "Mean daily maximum" becomes "Average high". Regardless of whether changes are ever made, or what they are made to be (because I don't think everyone will ever be happy with the terms used, based on the prior circuitous discussions) I'd also recommend adding notes that appear at the bottom of the template (below "Source:...") explaining what each of the terms in question mean. These notes could be added now while time is taken to determine the best course of action on the proper wording for these rows. [[Special:Contributions/172.59.64.42|172.59.64.42]] ([[User talk:172.59.64.42|talk]]) 02:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
:Im not thrilled about the change we made, but i can't say ''average record high'' would be any clearer. It sounds like a contradiction in terms. A monthly ''record'' is not the highest temperature recorded in a 30-day period, it's the highest temperature recorded in every instance of that 30-day period each calendar year. [[user:Soap|—]]<span style="background-color: #a6ffe0; padding: 3px; border-radius: 6px 6px 6px 6px;"><b>[[user talk:Soap|Soap]]</b></span>[[Special:Contributions/Soap|—]] 13:44, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
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