Space Opera Fans discussion
Alternative Space Opera
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What is 'Alternative' Space Opera
F.M. Busby had a female POC space captain as the central character of one of his novels in the Rebels series (along with being an accessory character in several others).
Steve Perry also has a female POC as the central character in one of his novels in the Matador series.
Oooh! Just scoped out the reviews on these two books! I had never heard of -either- book, but they both sound awesome and I have to wonder why they never became popular enough to make their way into our local library?
[*actually ... I know damned well why they never made it into my WASP town lilly-white library system ... but that's a snipe for a different day*]
The reader reviews on these two books both look favorable, Space Opera Fans! If you see them, snag them and read them :-)
You'd almost think my book was written to fit this tread. Having a gay parent and being an anthropologist probably has something to do with it.
-black heroes in space (and not just as sidekicks)
The entire science team in The Remnant has dark skin, with the exception of Jane Svenson, a grad student.
The natives are of middle eastern / Indian origin, so dark skin and hair is the norm. The science team wants to blend in and were mostly selected to do so.
Several of my starship captains are of African descent. Forty to fifty present of personnel are women on my ships.
Most people in my setting are darker skinned. It is nine hundred years in the future and people have homogenized at bit.
-indigenous/native people as conquerors/leaders (and not just as the conquered)
The natives (colonized eight hundred year before) of the planet are dark skinned, as noted above. The other race on the planet, the Taelantae, are paler skinned aliens who are generally not treated very well, although a reformation is in progress.
-queer people/queer lifestyles as 'normal'
Sex is usually presented as being fine between any people (of whatever species/race/creed/gender) is capable of consenting.
Several of the character are gay or bisexual in the story. No one makes a big deal out it. Even the locals on the planet at one point offer Tebrey a girl, he refuses, so they offer him a boy. Whom he also refuses.
Ana, love interest for the main character and also important to the story for other reasons is openly bisexual.
-polygamy and polyamory as 'normal'(not erotica)
Marriage is presented as being up to whoever wants it. Some characters feel differently (for themselves) Dr. Amber Mason is dark skinned, catholic, and not interested in marriage to more than one person. She certainly doesn't have a problem with anyone doing it, it just isn't for her (as an example)
-disabled people as heroes
This one is hard. Do one is disabled in my setting. Genetic problems are easy for them to fix. Medical technology can grow whole new bodies for people if needed. Tebrey, the main character, has recently had 80% reconstructive surgery at the beginning of the story. Does that count?
Tebrey is also of mixed Middle Eastern (Tebrey) and Northern European (Hrothgar) decent on his mothers side and *spoilers* on his fathers. (grin)
-Eastern-inspired worldbuilding
The Lyonan Empire on Cedeforthy is a culture descended from original colonists from France and India. There is also a Middle Eastern influence from another culture group across the ocean. Hindi is dominant.
The two major human cultures in the book, the Earth Federation and the Sentient Concord, are not based on any existing culture group, eastern or western.
It doesn't really have meaning anymore in this setting. Human groups are scattered and have had nine hundred years to evolved new cultures.
I suppose that you could call the two socities western-derived, since Normarish is the dominant language. (mixed language that is an amalgam of Mexican Spanish, English, and Canadian French) but Hindi and Chinese are also common.
The alien Rhyrhans may be the closest to eastern, with a vaguely Taoist culture, but are mostly shown in the second book.
Saga, Volume 1
Brian K. Vaughan
Let's see:
-black heroes in space (and not just as sidekicks)
One of the viewpoint characters in my wife's novel is of Indian descent, though I don't think that's ever mentioned. And any of the Mugdarans would count as people of color were they human, as their skin tones start at dark olive and go to ebony. But I don't think I've ever managed to get that mentioned in a story because, well, honestly, physical description is one of my weak points.
-indigenous/native people as conquerors/leaders (and not just as the conquered)
Only remotely relevant for one story published so far, and it's a pretty major plot point that the indigenous were too scared to fight back. Being hunted to near extinction left them traumatized.
-queer people/queer lifestyles as 'normal'
Oh, definitely. It's a non-issue in their society. Closest it comes to being an issue is in the novel I'm working on when a guy has had a crush on his male best friend for ages and it's not reciprocated because the friend is straight.
-polygamy and polyamory as 'normal'(not erotica)
Again, a non-issue in their society. Well, mostly. Some individual cultures have issues with it, but they're by far the minority and even with them it's a "we won't do it, but if you want to, whatever" thing, partially because their issue with it is religious and they don't expect other people to obey their religious tenets.
-disabled people as heroes
Yes. One of the heroes of Once a Hero, Always a Hero has PTSD that affects him quite a bit during the events of that short story. (If interested, please wait to purchase it as the revised edition -- which is so much better -- should be published later this week. Besides, it'll be free for a bit then.) Mental illness is a disability, right? He also has a somewhat crippled leg, causing him to have a nasty limp, but it doesn't affect him very much, so I'm not sure how much that counts.
-Eastern-inspired worldbuilding
The layout of the temple complex they break into in one of my novellas was based on that of a Buddhist temple complex, other than that, nope.
Other slightly less 'alternative' things in the setting that still are things that some might ask "Why isn't there a story about BLANK?" about:
-older heroes
The main characters in both Once A Hero, Always A Hero and Jake's Last Mission are middle-aged. There is a minor character in The Crown of Eldrete – Kavaliro Cousins, Book 1 that is elderly but still mentioned as being a good fighter.
-female heroes
The Crown of Eldrete is told from the viewpoints of a female warrior and a female warrior-priest. Stolen Time has mainly female viewpoint characters too. The fact that they're female is pretty much irrelevant in the setting. Competence matters a lot more than gender.
-overweight heroes
Jake is a bit overweight. I included this because I realized I'd never read science fiction with an overweight hero. As an overweight but pretty healthy person, that bothered me. It also bothered me that I don't think I've ever read anything with an overweight male protagonist, in any genre.
-Neopagan/Asatru heroes
Okay, so maybe I'm the only person who's ever wondered why every religious character in space opera is either Christian or a made up religion. Anyway, one of the heroes in Once A Hero, Always A Hero and one of the ones in The Crown of Eldrete worship the Norse gods and one of the main characters in Stolen Time worships the Celtic gods, though I don't recall if the mention of that survived the editing process.
I look forward to revised edition coming out.
I hadn't thought of PTSD as a disability, but of course it certainly can be.
I know what you mean about stuff not getting into the book. Since I've envisioned mine as a rather large series, a lot of stuff is sitting my series 'bible' that hasn't made into a story yet.
You aren't alone in being tired of Christianity being the only religion in books, believe me. Religion, in general, is downplayed in my stories. It just doesn't hold a lot of power for many of my characters. A couple of them feel very strongly about being Hindu, or Buddhist, or Christian, but most are atheist.
There are some believers of Asatru in the later books (the one due out this fall and the ones planned). Some of them are good people, some bad, just any other faith.
As for myself, Freya has always held a special place in my heart.
I'm an anthropologist (archaeology is a subset of anthro, and I have a degree in cultural anthro). In getting my degrees I studied many different cultures: beliefs, languages, arts, technology, psychologies, and ways of life. As an anthropologist, you are trained to accept everything as valid (cultural relativism) for the people you study. Participant observation is the norm. To study a culture or subculture, you become a part of it.
The point is that I point out the details as observed, but make no judgments.
In a setting that has religious, fanticical, xenophobic, five-limbed squids as an enemy, and multiple subspecies of human (genetically adapted for fit worlds, no longer cross-fertile), sentient machine intelligences, and a host of other aliens (some very alien) the differences between humans are really not that noticeable.
Humans in my stories were forced to relocate to other worlds. Worlds were population usually by one or two ethnic groups. Many human settled worlds have been rediscovered. Many are dead forever.
There aren't any Americans (U.S.) in my stories. There are a couple of worlds that have people descended from Americans (U.S.) though. Just like there are a dozen worlds that have Chinese descended populations, or African, or whatever.
Your story sounds like it is near-future, which is cool. Mine is set nine hundred years from now. Time-scale makes a big difference in a story.
I like to think that we get over most (if not all) of our ridiculous prejudices by then.
As Shannon pointed out, it just be a non-issue.
Original Star Trek had a lot of problems, but one of the things that it showed was the idea that people are people regardless of sex, gender, race, creed, or species.
I would hope that we as writers could do the same.
Yep, my novel is set at present day up to 2040 or so. Started it 10 years ago but only knuckled down and got serious about finishing it last year. I envision governments failing in the next 20-30 years. Not wishful, just practical, crushed under their own weight, unable to function properly (but not in the James Cameron/Ridley Scott dystopian vision of that world). It's about a man who dreams of exploring the solar system at a time when government-funded space programs are failing and no one is picking up the reins. Or, not in the way he envisions. There are some key technologies and the Kurzweilian singularity comes into play (though not in the way Kurzweil imagined).
Why does it seem like everyone but Asimov portrays A.I. as evil, dystopian? I prefer the Asimovian view, that robots will improve civilization, take us to new heights, not cause it to end in a nightmarish cataclysm. I also believe once A.I. develops, there will never be another, due to iteration speed. Imagine being an A.I. where 1 second in space-time seems like a month? That's a theme I've been exploring. But I don't want to give away where it's going and spoil the fun. :)
Like you I'm a Civ V and XCOM junky (in recovery). I'm eager to read your portrayal of human civilIzation. Do you have ETA of completion for your book?
[*evil laughter*]
I mean ... my daughter served in the Army where 3/4 of the kids she served with were some kind of minority. And yet, when you read a lot of military sci-fi, everybody is white with an English-sounding name.
That said, I do try to use mixed ethnic names.
Just an example from The Remnant, not even all of the ethnic ones:
Shakir Ibn Absalom, - Xenobiology graduate student
Janus Barros - Anthropology graduate student
Sigurd Black Eagle - Marine aboard the FSS Descubierta
Pirro Chavez - Archaeology graduate student
Upala De Luca - Archaeology graduate student
Deirdre Dominica - Executive Officer of the CSS Arcadia
Akira Etxegarai - Crypto-technology graduate student, assistant to Dr. Walsh
Yalena Gilchrist - Weapons crewman on the CSS Arcturus
Zamir Goldstein - Chief Medical Officer on the CSS Arcturus
Patricia Haraguchi - Forensic Pathologist / Psychiatrist, FSS Loridell
Jon Nakagawa - Communications Officer on the CSS Arcturus
Francois Garnath Mahavira Nanak - Ruler of part of the city of Bellejor
Maria Rodriguez - Chief Medical Officer FSS Loridell
Maria Sanchez - Marine commander aboard the CSS Arcturus
Ramon Seshadri - Archeologist
Chankrisna Sihanouk - Anthropology graduate student
Saeunn Viknorov - Captain of the CSS Arcturus
Ratana Vipavakit - Executive Officer of the FSS Agamemnon
Nikolai Volkov - Weapons crewman on the CSS Arcturus
I thought the Chinese influences in Firefly were a nice touch.
Bladerunner also had realistic Chinese influences. They are the most populous country and a rising world power. To exclude Eastern influence in a future world is silly.
There's also the little-known Italian film The Arrival of Wang, where the captured alien only knows Mandarin, having chosen to learn it as the most popular language on Earth (but ends up in Italy!).
Hah! A well-timed posting! My husband (who had to learn some Mandarin for his job) just got on a plane to Italy this afternoon. And what's really funny is, being an overly-logical electrical engineer, that is EXACTLY the kind of mistake he would make if he were an alien visiting Earth.
[*actually ... sometimes we tease him that he -is- an alien...*]
I was just discussing the Farscape reboot in another thread and then came here, and all I can think of is the episode where Aeryn and Crichton switched bodies. It was hilarious as they explored their opposite gender. I dunno ... I suppose if you switch genders often enough it would be like changing your clothing, but all I can think of is Crichton in Aeryn's body standing in front of the mirror and watching his own (her) boobies bounce.
Yes, but Crichton was permanently a fifteen year old.
I loved Farscape. I do wish Crichton had been a little bit smarter.
Is it wrong that I sit around and think of ways to destroy planets?
Why, no. I find absolutely nothing wrong with dreaming up scenarios where your bad guy devours a planet or two as a midnight snack. Of course ... you're talking to a writer whose villains actually get FAN MAIL from readers (???). Perhaps I am the wrong person to ask?
Are you talking about Aeryn Sun? Yes, she was endearing in a 'don't bug me or I'll shoot your face off' kinda way :-)
Yes! Let's vote for older heroes! (says a gal peeking at the brink of the big 5-0 and I ain't talking Hawaii!)
So, what do you guys and gals think? I have ideas for two more book series, making for three in total set in the same universe. But speaking as a white guy who is almost too close to being a racial stereotype, I am not really sure about writing these ideas. I don't really think about things like race or gender roles, because I also believe that because it is the distant future things like that wouldn't be an issue. But I am aware that they are being read in a time where those issues still exist.
One would focus on an Asian man as he goes from roughly poor/lower middle class family worker in a somewhat classic evil empire, to joining the military and working his way up as a fighter pilot. Over the course of the book he would gain experience, learn various things, and increase in rank and power until he is at the top of of the chain of command of this evil empire and is partially running it. With the series chronicling the story of a generally good man from humble beginnings transforming into somewhat of military monster with incredibly power and wealth. Only, at the end, he recognizes this, and uses all that he has to destroy the very system he worked his entire life to defend and eventually build. It would cover his life from roughly 18 to into his hundreds. The Part where he is Asian is largely because of the world I wanted him to come from was settled by Asian people in this universe. But I am concerned with the cliche/trope that Asian people are always portrayed as being evil in fiction. Although this will focus far more on the shades of grey in politics and the military, with a somewhat bittersweet ending.
The second idea, is for a Firefly-esque adventure following a small crew on a small ship trying to survive in a rough galaxy. Only the ship is captained by a part Brazilian part Indian (From India) woman, with a rather varied crew including a man of African descent who is somewhat of a combination of the characters from Firefly Jayne and and the Shepard. He is the only one with military skill and a rather secretive past that gets slowly revealed over time, portraying his character at being a little too skilled at combat, and being incredibly smart despite his attempts at trying to hide both. But the captain is the only thing keeping the crew together. The crew is then rounded out by a variety of aliens and androids. The primary concept of it would be to essentially be the opposite of Twilight, and show that a woman doesn't need a man to do anything, be powerful, have a life, or have self-worth. I would actually like to have this series possibly crossover with either of the two other series, and I at least think it would be interesting.
Finally, I have ideas about a villain that I would like feedback on. She is a lesbian, who had her lover die in her arms after getting shot right in front of her. And because of this launches a campaign to get revenge, completely changing her character from a quiet and rather nice person to a strict military hardliner and somewhat of a monster in the process of trying to get vengeance. Honestly asking, is that bad? I mean, as a straight guy, I could see myself becoming a monster to get revenge on the person who killed the love of my life. But does that play into any sort of stereotype that I am not aware of?
I like the second idea best, but instead of Brazilian-India, why not Brazilian/Amazon Indian? I studied their culture in my anthropology class and they have some unbelievable jaguar/dreamtime myths. But Brazilian-India is good as well. The only problem I see with your 'no man' premise is 53% of all people and 80% of all readers are women, which is why romance sells. I suggest you hop on over to read some of the Urban Fantasy novels with protagonists such as Kim Harrison's The Hollows series to get a feel for that 'I kick butt, save the hero, we both save the world together, and then we go have sex afterward' which is popular in today's culture.
I like the premise of the first one ... man moves up in rank through evil empire ... but I'm not sure the Asian trope would work unless delicately handled because there's a whole heap of cultural identity issues that would be hard to nail unless you've spent time in that culture. You'd need to do your research if you wanted to also appeal to that market.
Third idea ... There is a small but very loyal market for GLBT fiction, but they also tend to be some of the most hyper-sensitive people for anything that smacks of patronism. I suggest you run the idea past your gay friends (or find some). I know a lesbian couple where one served 4 years in Afghanistan before coming home and getting married. I can picture her getting revenge if somebody hurt her wife a-la 'The Punisher'. I CANNOT see her turning into 'a monster.' Since your protagonist would likely turn off many straight readers, you'd want to be darned sure you wrote her in a way gay readers can empathize with.
Okay ... just my two sense. All good ideas, but you'd have to do your research to pull it off.
Yeah, that first one is a bit sticky. See, I general don't like addressing race, especially in a world with aliens. In the books I have out I don't even describe the main character's race, and the reader can simply imagine nearly everything other than the fact that it is a male character. But with this book concept, the character's name is very Asian and he comes from an Asian colony world. Beyond those two things, I wouldn't reference race at all about the character. And the 'evil empire' would be made up of a variety of other races, who would making up a variety of supporting characters. Hm, I probably should do a lot of research about it.
Hm yeah that third idea would be very tricky. What if instead of a protagonist similar to the Punisher, she would be an antagonist? With then the person she is trying to get revenge on being the protagonist. Or would that just make matters worse? As for being 'a monster' well it sort of like being the punisher, killing plenty of people on the path to getting revenge, but also include killing not-so-guilty people along the way. The concept has the character being a high ranking military person, so she wouldn't being going out and shooting people in the face herself, but commanding a fleet of ships and a small army that would be going out and shooting people in the face.
So, sort of like a very quiet normal everyday soldier whose personality leans more towards the shy side of things. But then once the love of her life dies, she turns into a General Patton meets Captain Ahab sort of character, though slowly over time. Where she becomes very outspoken, a 'leads from the front' sort of commander, and slowly loses the concepts of mercy, and all of the things that made her her. But she is aware of this, of the changing going on, and it only makes her want even more revenge. So that it blurs from wanting revenge for her lost love, into wanting revenge for her lost self.
Hm, yeah, I suppose research really would be key. Ah, thanks for listening to my rantings, and sorry for such long posts.
Suggest you go on an Urban Fantasy reading binge for a few weeks to get a 'feel' for what would be a good melange. Here are the three 'top' recommend UF series from over at the other community I help moderate, Lovers of Paranormal. You can pick up a bundle cheap.
I would -love- to see somebody write 'hard' science fiction and space opera using these kinds of heroines. We need Sci-Fi to be relevant to women, which it won't be so long as it's a 'men only' club.
Fortune's Pawn
Honor's Knight
Heaven's Queen
Devi Morris is pretty kick ass in this trilogy...
Fortune's Pawn
Honor's Knight
Heaven's Queen
Devi Morris is pretty kick ass in this trilogy..."
Oh yes! I just finished reading those, and they're bloody good.
Trying my best, honest...
[*grins*]
I have a rough draft of a trilogy that will be more UF-in-space than fantasy, but it contains spoilers for the epic fantasy series I'm rolling out at the moment so it will probably be 2 years before I dust it off and edit up The Cherubim Queen. If I don't get distracted by a squirrel...
I'm working on an outline of a not too distance space future where it's going to be intergalatic war but not with spaceships but with Finance/PR campaigns/spying/hacking almost like a cyberpunk but not a dystopia or a utopia, and an intergalatic war starts but it's extremely cold and not even called a war it of course has a new PRy/buzzword term. Since it was going to be a space opera it would have multiple POV's on both sides of the front and the only two I really have solid right now is an Western Women government contractor with a strong sense of right/wrong who more or less gets sucked into the events unintentially and starts trying to make sense of the gray muck on every side. The other was a rising Asian background salaryman who starts working at a new company which happens to be a front for the most powerful family in this nation. The whole idea came up when me and one of my friends were discussing how war in the way we know it might become obsolete and how war might look radically different in 300 years but like how if you compare war 300 years ago to war today.
Good question. Bragging rights? I suppose it would have been less impressive for the movie-going masses if he held out a pea-speck of the stuff 3:-)
This might be one of those things already known, but back during the 2002-2008 Catwoman run, Catwoman had a best friend who was in a committed lesbian relationship, and then later when Selina Kyle had to take break, that lesbian took over the role of Catwoman.
In terms of POC, there's Batwing. Still not Space Opera, and not Marvel, but mentioned because of the mention of Marvel.
In terms of disabled people as heroes, there is Superior by Mark Millar. A kid with mutliple sclerosis. In the series he is somewhat like Avatar in that he is in and out of the wheelchair, when he is superhuman, when he isn't vs. when wheelchair bound man in Avatar is in wheelchair vs when in alien. That's, as far as I recall, the only connection between the two stories. Wheelchairs and times when in and out of them. An interesting Marvel series. Short. Not Space Opera. Includes a monkey in a astronaut suit. Who is actually a demon from hell.
While serving on the Avengers panel this past winter at the ARISIA SciFi/Fantasy conference, one of the audience members stood up and asked why he was unable to find pe..."
What was the Avenger's panel's reply?
And I thought just that when I saw a poster for Avengers 2. All the new super heroes are white. All the previous people from Avengers 1 are white. All the people rumored to be in Avengers 3 (or Civil War) are white. It's kind of weird. Something I would expect in the 70s and 80s, not today.
Not to self-promote, but my new book Lordes Legionnaire's has a black man as the main character (he owns the mercenary company) and monogamous relationships are the outlier. Hell, the only white person on the team is an albino. I write my characters not having Western European descent for two reasons.
1. Pretty much every sci-fi book I read has only white, Western European characters. Now that doesn't stop me from enjoying the book, but it stands in stark contrast to the real world.
2. When I write the main character has a white dude, I project myself onto him. I'm not all that interesting, so it makes for a character less than memorable.
Space Opera Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Turquoise Queen (other topics)The Cartel (other topics)
Bright Star (other topics)
Transgressions (other topics)
Rama II (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
J.M. Brink (other topics)Brian K. Vaughan (other topics)
While serving on the Avengers panel this past winter at the ARISIA SciFi/Fantasy conference, one of the audience members stood up and asked why he was unable to find people of color represented in the Marvel universe. With the exception of the Marvel Black Panther comic book series, I had to agree with the man. Later that weekend I attended a reading by a friend who wrote a speculative fiction piece about a lesbian couple who conducted a 'trans-dimensional' adoption by rescuing a baby from a voracious dragon.
When you start reading some of the cutting-edge paranormal romances or the manga coming out of Japan or Korea, all of these issues have already been solved, but here in the west, we're still stuck in the 1960's!
Therefore ... this entire folder is devoted to finding and discussing great Space Opera stories (books, movies, TV, comics, manga) which look at or promote the idea of alternatives in a galactic-spanning empire. Next January, when I go to ARISIA, I'd like to be able to rattle off at least 10 good 'alternative' books for whatever issue somebody says 'why isn't there a story about [*fill in blank*]'. So help me out here, guys!
Space Opera discussions I'd like to see include:
-black heroes in space (and not just as sidekicks)
-indigenous/native people as conquerors/leaders (and not just as the conquered)
-queer people/queer lifestyles as 'normal'
-polygamy and polyamory as 'normal'(not erotica)
-disabled people as heroes
-Eastern-inspired worldbuilding
Okay ... that's all I can think of for now, but I'll probably add requests as people ask for it . So let's discuss it, huh? What kind of people or lifestyles do you wish were better represented in SF/F today?
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AUTHORS: If you have written a book which clearly fits into one of the sub-threads, you are welcome to post a brief 'My book is about...' comment the same as any other community member along with the book cover and link to your Goodreads book page. After all, we -want- authors to write more cutting edge, alternative goodies to feed our sci-fi addictions. :-) However ... absolutely no blatant Self-Promotion allowed unless it clearly fits!!!
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UPDATE 8/30/14 - Authors ... there's a book blog tour which specializes in featuring books with diversity issues. Here's a link to the thread with more information (in the Author/Blogger Shop Talk folder): https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...