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2005 deletion debate

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For a June 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Diplom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonP (talk • contribs) 19:46, 18 June 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Transwiki

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That's wrong, it wasn't transwikied. -- Amtiss, SNAFU ? 21:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification and consistency

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Article needed a serious improvement to grammar. Also, comparing the Diplom to the Bachelors and Masters system is very difficult. This is the entire reasoning behind the Bologna Process. Article needed clarification on this issue, i.e. Bachelors degrees cannot be generalized as they vary from country to country in terms of years to attainment. To solve this discrepancy, the example of the U.S. (and the English-speaking world) was added to the chart in the article. Here the minimum requirement is four years. InfoAgent (contribs) 08:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to reverts made by an anonymous IP concerning the Abitur, it really has no place in this article as it has nothing to do with university study or the "diplom." The chart in this article is meant to be a very rough comparison of university systems internationally. Furthermore, it should only include university study. The GPAs and SATs in the US are comparable to the German Abitur, so the inclusion of the Abitur is really irrelevant on the chart. Lastly, by no means can the Abitur be translated into two years of university study. This should really not become a revert war. InfoAgent (contribs) 05:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You don't understand the system. The Abitur is not a test. It is a study period similar to the first two general years of the US Bachelor. With the Abitur you don't start with the first but in a higher semester in US. You can remove the two general years from the US Bachelor or leave the Abitur where it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.215.51 (talk • contribs) 00:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No! The issue here is that this article concerns the “Diplom” (only) which is part of university study in several European countries (and NOT only Germany!). The Abitur in Germany falls under secondary schooling and it culminates in a test (yes, it is also a test FYI). Also I cannot understand your explanation grammatically. Please try to improve on your use of English so that one can understand your argument. Also, if you are having trouble with the definition of Abitur please see the Wikipedia page for it here. Please also see What Wikipedia is Not. Remember to use a four tidles (~) to sign every post. InfoAgent 07:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry InfoAgent, but I think your excuses are very embarrassing. One can clearly understand what he means. Students with A-Levels or Abitur start in USA in a higher semester and not the first. Therefore it is clearly part of university studies if you compare it with an US Bachelor. By the way the Abitur does NOT culminate in a test. See the corresponding article in wikipedia or better look in the German wikipedia. Sacrumi 15:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Embarassing? What? Wikipedia is not a place for personal attacks or for trying to prove a point. Again please see What Wikipedia is Not if you are having trouble. Based on the language problem again I believe that this is the same user as before. I still do not completely understand what you are trying to say but please do not continue to argue that the Abitur is university study because that would be futile. I believe what you are trying to say refers to transfer credits but that applies to US students as well. For example, high school students can take an AP exam for college credit but that does not mean AP courses are part of university study, you see? Whatever your argument, the Abitur does not pass as two years in the chart or as part of university study. This is completely unfounded and not even cited. Please try to understand how this works. InfoAgent 17:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You started with personal attacks against the IP. I pointed that out in my previous discussion. If you have problems understanding correct English - don't blame other ones for it. I remove now the American Bachelor because it is obvious that it is not comparable (at least not with people like you who are not able to research information). You may start with the American Bachelor a Master-program in Europe, but most likely you will have to do some undergraduate studies before you can apply for a Master (3 years specialized studies vs. 2 years in the US). Sacrumi 05:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Correct English? Need I say more? You just proved my point for me! InfoAgent 16:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Again InfoAgent. I gave you the sources (the below). So my proposal: It does not make sense to add the US Bachelor because this is not the purpose of this article. It is just a comparison between the study time with the new and the old degrees in Germany. NOTHING else! I don't want to see the African Bachelor or the Russian Bachelor or whatever Bachelor. It makes no sense. Hope you are so intelligent to understand this. I mean you can't even compare the different study times, because even in America you can do your Bachelor in 3 or even in 2 years if you do some advance courses at High School. This is in Abitur or A-Levels NOT possible even if the courses have university-level (I know several people with Abitur who have advance standing at (good) US colleges - If you have doubt ask your college). Hint: If you want information you can get it from www.daad.de (you can view the information in simple English). Sacrumi 11:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sacrumi, I thought I’d help you out since you are so confident in your “English skills” and give you a few pointers.

Your wrote in grammatically incorrect English:

You started with personal attacks against the IP. I pointed that out in my previous discussion. If you have problems understanding correct English - don't blame other ones for it. I remove now the American Bachelor because it is obvious that it is not comparable (at least not with people like you who are not able to research information). You may start with the American Bachelor a Master-program in Europe, but most likely you will have to do some undergraduate studies before you can apply for a Master (3 years specialized studies vs. 2 years in the US). Sacrumi 05:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

You should have written the following in proper English:

You are the one who began the personal attacks against the anonymous IP address. Don’t blame others if you can’t understand proper English. I am going to remove the US version of the Bachelors from the chart because the two degrees are not comparable. Students from the US can start a Masters program in Europe with only a Bachelors degree...(don’t understand the rest)

The latter is the correct version, which is understandable. In terms of content, what you are saying is, unfortunately, absolutely ridiculous. There is no way that you could start any Masters program in the US (or Europe, for that matter) without a Bachelors degree (i.e. the process follows: undergraduate and then graduate). Please don’t be so confident in your knowledge and “research abilities” if you really don’t have a good command of the English language and know little about the US education system because it really shows.

Finally, stop reverting the "diplom" article and being a Troll. Instead, try to make some valuable contributions to English Wikipedia. So far you have only taken hostage of this article, you have removed credible information, and have not even provided citations (or any evidence) to support your revisions.

My advice: stick to the German Wikipedia. Sincerely InfoAgent 16:33, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry. I am not German. I suggested you a peace-offer, but you absolutely ignoring the new version. I don't start insulting you as you did. You don't know anyhing about the European education system. I have never said that you can start a Masterprogram without a Bachelor (although there are well-known exceptions in Germany and England. For example Oxford which offers a Masterdegree after 4-5 years of studies without obtaining a Bachelor). The German Government has an agreement with the US and the Australian Government that you can start a Master after Vordiplom and 1-2 Semester studies in Hauptstudium). I know more about the US education system then you might think. However, just say something about the peace-offer and please don't start insulting me again with ridiculous arguments. Please read the new text before reverting.

Although it is out of scope of the article, because the article is just a comparison of the old degrees and new degrees in Germany: http://germany.usembassy.gov/germany/exchanges/study.html Sacrumi 23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sac, I don't quite understand, if you are neither German nor American, then why do you pretend to be such an expert on the US and German education systems? I happen to be both. This whole thing seems rather awkward, don't you think? Anyways, this was never a war (as you may have thought) but merely a difference of opinion. There is no need for offering "peace" or "truces" because I am a good faith contributor. Furthermore, I think that if you use Wikipedia more often and contribute more on a regular basis, then you will find that this happens quite commonly between users. I would, however, suggest that you move on from this issue and try to experiment with other articles because, as of now, you are only a Troll with an agenda to hijack and take hostage of the diplom article (that is not my opinion but it is what your contributions clearly depict to other users). So, in the end, try to read up on the Wikipedia:guidelines a little more and move on to newer and better topics.
But back to the issue, again, you are removing credible information (including citations) from this article and offering none in return (in the article). I took the liberty of looking at the above link, but it only reinforces the structure of the comparison chart. Your source states: The typical academic degree earned by American students is the “Bachelor of Arts” (BA) or respectively the “Bachelor of Science” (BS). These degrees are awarded following the completion of four years of studies...Those who decide to pursue their education further can earn a Master of Arts or Master of Science, respectively, in one to two years. InfoAgent 04:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dear InfoAgent. Thanks for your insults again. Why do you think you are an expert (In your words: Give me a proof)? I provide you a link where it is clearly stated that you are wrong. The source is the US Embassy. Back to topic. I want a clear answer: The article is about comparing old German degrees (Diplom) with new German/European Degrees (Bachelor/Master). How fit the US Bachelor there??? If you have a convincing argument please tell it to me and the community. As I proofed (US Embassy:http://germany.usembassy.gov/germany/exchanges/study.html) the US Bachelor is equal to a three year Bachelor in Europe so that should be in the timeline or you should add the High School and Abitur in there. Quotation from http://germany.usembassy.gov/germany/exchanges/study.html

Common Classification of German Students into the US System

  • Fachhochschulreife/Abitur > Undergraduate/Bachelor's
  • während des Fachhochschulstudiums > Undergraduate/Bachelor's
  • weniger als 6 Semester Universität > Undergraduate/Bachelor's
  • Fachhochschuldiplom > Undergraduate/Bachelor's oder Graduate/Master's
  • 6 Semester Universität plus Vordiplom/Zwischenprüfung > Bachelor

Graduate/Master's/Professional

  • Universitätsabschluss (Diplom, Magister, Staatsexamen> Graduate/Master's/Professional/Ph.D.
  • Universitätsabschluss (Bachelor)> Undergraduate/Graduate/Master's/Professional

Your version of the article is definitely wrong and your source doesn't proof your point. In fact it says the systems are so different that you can't compare them. Your argumentation is poor and you just want to fight (Because you don't answer my statements). The link clearly states: 2 years of Study (Vordiplom) + 1 year of study (Hauptstudium) > BA or BS. To my experience: I have studied in Spain, Germany and in the US (I think I have a good knowledge of the systems). Sacrumi 08:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that this issue not become an edit war. If either of you have a problem, please take it to mediation or start an RfC. I would also remind Sacrumi of civility. Please do not revert this article again. aNubiSIII (T / C) 19:58, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear: I did not start reverting. I added information and InfoAgent revert them every time. Proves can be found at the US ministry of education, university/college homepages in the US as well as German wikipedia and Germany's ministry of education. Sacrumi 05:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess most of controversy in the discussion above arises from a failure of communication. What Sacrumi and others were trying to point out and InfoAgent failed to understand is not exactly that the German Abitur or the British A-Levels are part of university studies, but rather that Abitur or A-Levels are actually an academic qualification that is considered roughly equivalent to at least one year of college study in the US. That is so basically because German and UK students normally enter university one year later than their American counterparts, effectively having the equivalent of a "13th grade" in High School. 161.24.19.82 19:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

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I'd suggest, before this turns into an edit war, that both parties stop and discuss things a little further on the talk page before making edits to the article. Be aware of the three-revert rule, but also be aware that 3 reverts are not an entitlement and the purpose of the rule is to prevent back-and-forth editing. I think both parties could stand to back off and be a little more civil with each other. I'd suggest proposing concrete, sample changes to the article here, on the talk page, and going through them to try and reach consensus. If that proves impossible, I'd suggest a third opinion or a request for outside comments on the issue; such steps are outlined in the dispute resolution policy. If things degenerate into further name-calling and edit-warring, then sanctions are likely to be applied indiscriminately, to the detriment of the article. MastCell Talk 15:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Third Opinion

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MastCell is completely correct on this and I also strongly suggest that both parties should refrain from further editing of this article. Edit wars which turn uncivil are simply counterproductive to the principles of Wikipedia. In terms of the issue itself, I read through the arguments on both sides and I find that this is somewhat of a controversial issue. Simply put, it is difficult to compare degrees across countries when the systems are so different. I’m sure that both parties would agree. In order to clean things up a bit, I reverted the article to its original form before the edit war began and either part made any changes. I removed the most recent edits by Sacrumi because the wording appears kind of off and it isn’t exactly clear. It’s also best to stay away from statements like “for more information, see…” I did, however, leave in the references provided by both parties. I hope that both InfoAgent and Sacrumi can agree to these changes in good faith. Again, I strongly advise both parties not to edit this article until consensus has been reached. In addition, BOTH parties should remember their civility when addressing each other on talk pages. Appropriate measures which can be taken are starting a RfC and, subsequently, moving towards a request for mediation if the RfC proves futile. aNubiSIII (T / C) 20:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article update

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I have linked the articles Bachelor/Master in this article. The articles Bachelor and Master contain already a comparison of the degrees, so I see no point in doing it here again. I really see no point in comparing degrees in time, because if you want to do this, you have to consider the whole educational "lifecycle" (primary school, secondary school, university...). For example, students from Germany/Europe learn already subjects in school which in US are taught at colleges/school (might be that European students generally attend school longer). In university they only focus on one subject and do no general studies any more. In US students do two year of general studies and only two years where they focus on one subject. I really don't know how you want to compare this and what the point of that is. Maybe someone can explain that. I think the article should also mention that it is only about regular study time. In some disciplines in Germany (Engineering, Computer Science, Science...) the students usually need longer to obtain their degrees, because the level is very high. That is the same in other countries. Sacrumi 05:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In Germany, it is said...

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that in the U.S., Diploma Studies like in Germany are introduced because it seems that the Bachelor/Master system has too many disadvantages...; is that correct? I couldnt find anything in the Web, but i`ld like to verify this. (I live and study in Germany, and here, lots of People don´t like the Bachelor/Master System which is introduced because of the "Bologna Process") --89.49.130.103 (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Abstract: It is impossible to prove that something does not exist by absence of proof. So you need a lemma for that and Ockham's razor does just that. Back to the topic: The whole point of the Bologna process was to unify those different systems. It does not make any sense for the US to go the other way. So, dislike the BA/MS system as much as you like, it is here to stay. I know it sucks for people caught in the transition period, but after that it only has advantages Tierlieb (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In Germany people talk a lot. Most do not respect that high school is one year longer in Germany, than in the US. This is why a US Bachelor's is 4 years while a German Bachelor's is about 3 years. So some ppl say that in the US a BS/MS accelerated program is only 5 years (similar to the Diplom) but in fact that would be more like 4 years when considering the shorter High School. Another advantage is that the Diplom guarantees you have a full curriculum of a high-level University, excluding you used credits from some easy low-level college (Fachhochschule, FH). It's more like a quality seal than an advantage. The BS/MS degrees do not guarantee this anymore, you can attend a FH for your BS and then easily transfer to a high-level University to earn your MS (There is no strict selection process for this transfer yet). Jfs718 --138.246.7.137 (talk) 12:37, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Problems with the durations in the table for Germany/Austria

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With this version[[1]] I introduced two ways to the doctor title when starting out with a "Diplom (FH)". Of course, my point was to show that this might be a bit unfair (the first way was one year less than the university way, one was one years longer), which might explain the bologna process. Now User:Dreamtyp changed that table by adding two years of "additional course work" [[2]] (and messing up my pretty layout I am so proud of, but that has been fixed ;-)). This change makes it appear as if it had been properly regulated before bologna. Now I wonder what to do with the data presented there. I'd say my interpretation is the right one, because imho that is the official way and I cannot find any official document mandating the two additional years. I also know from my own experiences that you have to jump through a lot of hoops if you want to become a doctor with a FH-diploma. That may amount to two additional years. But that depends on where you get you try to get your doctor title... so I guess someone else should decide this. Tierlieb (talk) 22:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The table is correct the way it is, on my opinion. If you have an FH degree (it's running out), you need a "1.5" grade, which is an "excellent" mark, to start the doctorate. The first 1-2 years you will spend them with additional coursework and a 6-month thesis ("Eignungsprüfung"), the load depends on the university.
I have a problem with the 3 years duration for the doctorate: The average is about 6 years in Germany. 3 years are an exception, that only apply to an "Industriepromotion" (thesis written in a company instead a university) and some majors (physics and math). All engineers and humanities students need much longer than 3 years! 70% need 5 years (see http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~jmoes/pide/Material/promovieren-mit-perspektive-vortrag-sylt.pdf). Jfs718 --138.246.7.137 (talk) 12:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

German Qualifications

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The swedish naric, the högskoleverket definitely compare the German Diplom as a Licentiate Degree, corresponding to a Bachelor. Neither the U.K. nor the Republic of Ireland has joint Qrossroads http://www.qrossroads.eu/about-qrossroads/partners and it counts what the University of Aberystwyth is leaking out namely that in the U.K. the German/Austrian Diplom corresponds to a Bachelor. The assessment process in the U.K. involves a fee and the details are dependent upon individual cases. But the rules of thumb are given on that website! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.136.141.172 (talk) 12:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

-- I did find the information about the recognition of the German Diplom by the University of Aberystwyth on their website. However, I was unable to find the required information on the hompage of the högskoleverket. Maybe you can set a new link? The link you provided doesn't seem to work. Regards, --89.126.86.116 (talk) 22:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Diplom(BA) and Diplom(FH)

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I removed the claim by the IP 77.4.200.128 that the Diplom(BA) is in Germany equated to the Diplom(FH). Apart from that I'm not sure if it is relevant, it is certainly wrong if stated that generally. What is correct is that public employers usually (but this might differ between German states) equate these two kind of diploma in terms of qualification and salary. But I strongly doubt that every private employer does this. And clearly, both diploma are very different. After all, the Diplom(FH) is an academic degree, the Diplom(BA) is not. Furher, the Diplom(FH) is a 4-year degree, usually involving one internship of some months. The programme to achieve a Diplom(BA) takes only 3 years, and, as far as I know, consists to almost 50% of internships. This certainly cannot be compared in general. 89.126.37.67 (talk) 03:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NOKUT

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Stop deleting the entries for Norway. You are not the Norwegian authority who does the decisions and the Norwegian statistical office has no claims whatsoever to recognise degrees. Do not involve yourself into the decisions of other nations. The same in Sweden, where the Diplom is tantamount to a Bachelor degree according to the högskoleveverket and again it is the Swedish authorities who make these decisions and not you. As a stakeholder, I have dealt with these authorities and you have not. So leave the editing to competent contributors.

-- I think we should include the evaluation by the Norwegian statistical office. It may well be that it has no authority to recognise degrees, however, there is no other proper evaluation by a Norwegian office or institute. Or at least we have no source at the moment. (NOKUT apparently doesn't evaluate the German Diplom and just states that the system is 'confusing'.) I agree, though, that we also should keep the NOKUT source in. Regards, 137.43.122.118 (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2012 (UTC).[reply]

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more footnotes

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Shouldn't the 9 year old more footnotes marker be removed, given the current state?--Nomentz (talk) 10:13, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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