Talk:Hermes

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Hermes is the god of ... - Comparison / assist to merging the french and english wikipedia versions

Discordances wikipedia Anglais & Français "Hermès est le dieu de ..." == I started in the french wikipedia and I don't have time/energy anymore to translate everything. So here's a dump of what you find in the french wikipedia. --- cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes "Hermès est le dieu

1. du commerce, ok
2. de l'héraldique,
3. des marchands, - c'est la même choses que "commerçants" ?
4. du commerce, - c'est la même choses que "commerçants" ?
5. des routes, - c'est la même choses que "gardien des routes et carrefours" ?
6. des voleurs, ok
7. des ruses,
8. des sports,
9. des voyageurs et - ok
10. des athlètes."

cf. français; "Il est

1. le messager des dieux,
2. donneur de la chance,
3. inventeur des poids et des mesures,
4. gardien des routes et carrefours, - c'est la même choses que "des routes" ?
5. dieu des voyageurs,
6. des commerçants, ok
7. des voleurs, ok
8. des orateurs et
9. des prostituées. "

Nr	Header text	Header text	Header text
1	Example	Example	Example

Nr	English wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes	French wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herm%C3%A8s	Conclusion/Commentaires brefs
1	commerce, ok	# des commerçants	c'est la même choses ?
2	héraldique	Example	Example
3	marchands	# des commerçants	c'est la même choses que "commerçants" ?
4	routes, - c'est la même choses que "gardien des routes et carrefours" ?	gardien des routes et carrefours, - c'est la même choses que "des routes" ?	Example
1	voleurs, ok	# des voleurs	Example
1	ruses,	Example	Example
1	sports,	Example	Example
1	# voyageurs - ok	# dieu des voyageurs,	Example
1	des athlètes	Example	Example
1	Example	messager des dieux	Example
#	Example	chance (donneur de la..)	Example
#	Example	poids et des mesures (inventeur des..)	Example
#	Example	orateurs	Example
14	Example	prostituées	Example

SvenAERTS (talk) 10:03, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Offspring, mothers and sources

The six-column table was very difficult to read, we certainly couldn't just read across a row normally, so I've simplified it. I hope this makes it easier for anyone to edit too. I ran into some issues.

• "Consort" is not an appropriate heading. None of these were Hermes' settled or public spouses. "Lover" isn't right either; some were raped. Putting the children first allowed the column heading "Mother".
• A goddess that Hermes merely fancied isn't a consort or lover. Removed."Persephone: unsuccessfully wooed her".
• On Wikipedia, we prefer running text to tables. The male lovers can just as well be listed in a sentence.
• The sourcing is entirely to primary sources and very weak at that. For example
  • Brimo was listed as bearing three daughters by Hermes, and the text above says "*Brimo, a chthonic goddess, is said to have laid her virgin body to Hermes and bore to him three daughters. Brimo appears as the title any of the several goddesses with an inexorable, dreaded and vengeful aspect that is linked to the land of the dead. When Hermes attempted to rape Persephone, she roared in anger and frightened him off, thus earning the title Brimo."

"Brimo" is an epithet applied to several goddesses, not the name of a goddess. The source was given as Tzetzes on Lycophron, Alexandra 680. John Tzetzes was writing in the twelfth century; he's a primary source. I haven't found an online English translation and my Greek is poor, but after a quick look at the Greek and even in conjunction with the Alexandra, I can't see how those numbered items support the table entry or the text above. The text also cites Propertius Elegies 2. 29, which should be Propertius Elegies 2.2, lines 11-12 (Latin, translation) which may be referring to a Thessalian mystery linking Hermes and Hecate (one of the goddesses whose epithet was Brimo), but the text is WP:SYNTH of that with Tzetzes' unrelated commentary.

If we had a modern secondary source, a reliable source, this sort of examination would be unnecessary, but instead we've got WP:OR from ancient primary sources and it doesn't stand up.

• • Theseus and Odrysus were listed among the male lovers, citing Clement of Rome, Homilia 5.15. Those Homilies are now called Clementine or Pseudo-Clementine and dated to well after Clement of Rome, Pope Clement, died in 99. Homily 5.15 (1870 translation, same but clearer presentation) has a list of gods' male lovers that includes eg Achilles as a lover of Dionysus and others which aren't exactly mainstream mythology. The Homily puts this list in the mouth of a pagan man producing spurious reasons to persuade a woman to commit adultery with him; Pseudo-Clement may be enjoying himself producing obviously spurious claims, or he may be may have read too much slash-fiction or seen too many brothel paintings, or simply be willing to say anything to denigrate pagans - who knows? What's certain is that this is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. Sadly, that passage has been used (usually as "Homilies 5.16") in Dionysus, Heracles, Asclepius, Hephaestus, Apollo, Peleus, Pan (god), Daphnis, Hippolytus (son of Theseus), Haemon (mythology) and maybe more.
    

I fear this table, the text above it, and other Wikipedia articles need a lot of clean-up due to mis-use of primary sources, but this sort of examination is slow work. Should we just delete primary sources? Or even material that only has primary sources? Or tag and revisit months later? NebY (talk) 22:02, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

References

The new table is a vast improvement. (It would be good if it were ordered alphabetically by offspring. Perhaps with separate sections for sons and daughters?)

The sourcing issue is a serious one. Using untranslated primary sources is useful, but never sufficient (e.g. "Scholia on Homer, Iliad, 10. 266"). Although using translations of primary sources is OK, I think, for citing what the primary source says (but not for what the primary source means). So, for example, citing Pausanias, 10.17.5—with a link to a reliable translation—for Norax being the offspring of Erytheia and Hermes is fine, although the addition of a secondary source would be better. I would suggest removing any entries for which sufficient sourcing cannot be easily found.

Paul August ☎ 13:39, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Glad you like the revised table! I've made it, or rather them, sortable though that's imperfect. To be exact, it's two tables presented one above the other on narrow screens but side-by-side on wide screens to keep it all relatively compact, which means we can't sort it as one piece. Not yet, anyway. At first glance, giving the three daughters their own column would often prevent the side-by-side display, and we wouldn't want to relegate the girls to their own table below the boys (not unless we're playing fantasy football, anyway).

I worry that we're using primary sources indiscriminately (translation or no). Ordinarily, we use secondary sources and don't have to discriminate between primaries, but this article ranges from Hesiod through Pausanias to Pseudo-Plutarch and on to a Pseudo-Clementine anti-pagan diatribe, each of which we're reporting as "true" mythology with equal weight. Where do we draw the line? NebY (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Equivalents

Hello sir. Don't you think that this equivalent Is nonesense because Odin doesn't fits with Hermes.Zeus would be better rather than the trickster. Who says that Odin Is a trickster? 79.131.163.115 (talk) 14:35, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello IP editor. The idea of equating Odin to Hermes is not ours, it was apparently the Romans who made the connection, or so argues Jens Peter Schjødt of Aarhus University. You can download his work on this matter by following this link. Girth Summit _(blether) 14:47, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

It's not our idea that, for example, dies Mercurii is called Wednesday. —Tamfang (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Equivalents?

An editor has just removed Odin from the infobox, along with the supporting link to Jens Peter Schjødt's chapter on scholarly equivalence: "Mercury – Wotan – Óðinn: One or Many?" linked just above. I was about to undo the removal, absent any form of edit summary, then noticed the question mark in the linked title and decided it might be more helpful to read the linked work, from beginning to end.

Schjødt does not support the equivalence of Hermes with Odin. He mentions the essentially Greek Hermes exactly twice (and not in connection with Odin) during a speculative exploration of the scholarly limits and historic shortfalls of such comparisons. His subject is an essentially Roman Mercury, not Hermes. They are not the same. There is no evidence for Hermes as contact, influence or equivalent to any figure in Norse religion or myth. Odin's own development and identity are strongly disputed in modern scholarship, as is "well known by all scholars dealing with Old Norse religion or mythology." Infoboxes are supposed to summarise what's essential, sure and certain in the scholarship; which this is not. The editors of the Odin article make no such claim regarding Hermes. They also seem to avoid using infoboxes. Haploidavey (talk) 07:37, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@Haploidavey: Thanks for this. We should certainly not be asserting that Odin is the Norse equivalent of Hermes! This would seem to come from the simplistic (and false) assumption that since Mercury is "equivalent" to Hermes, and Mercury is "equivalent" to Odin (via the "equivalence" of Wotan and Odin?) then that must mean that Odin is equivalent to  Hermes. In my opinion this whole concept of "equivalence" between gods is too nuanced, speculative, simplistic and misleading to be part of the infobox at all.  I would go farther and opine that the whole discussion of a possible relationship between Mercury and Odin in the section "In the Roman period" while interesting should be removed as too off-topic and misleading (at best). Paul August ☎ 12:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes indeed; if A looks like B, and B looks like C, so A must look like C and they all belong in the infobox. I've come across several attempts to justify the infobox inclusion of such "equivalents" by adding speculative, digressive, off-topic material to the article body, seemingly supported but with the most tenuous connections (even amounting to original research). There's a lot of it strewn about in the G&R field, and it's not at all helpful. I'm probably also guilty in this. The whole article has a difficult, indisciplined history and needs careful attention. The Roman period material really needs a clean-up; that "Mercury/Hermes" is troubling. Haploidavey (talk) 12:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Various well-meaning editors have imported google-translations from Portuguese and French sources (possibly others, over a decade or two), which could probably do with checking. Haploidavey (talk) 13:24, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for this. I'd have liked to follow up by removing Odin from the Hermes equivalents in Interpretatio graeca#Cross-cultural equivalencies, but that table's criterion is gods of various cultures whom the Greeks or Romans identified (either explicitly in surviving works, or as supported by the analyses of modern scholars) with their own gods and heroes (my emphasis), so it has Hermes -> Mercury -> Odin. It's all rather redolent of The Key to All Mythologies. NebY (talk) 19:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Around and around it goes... appropos of not very much, I'd love to have met Eliot. "Middlemarch" is superb, eh? Alas, all I have is a twisted screenplay vision of Viking Eric (Kirk Douglas, of course) en route to Valhalla, done to a glorious death by Tony Curtis' blunt sword and calling for "H...e...r...m...e...s!!!!" Haploidavey (talk) 08:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

<Snort> NebY (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Loki as norse equivalent

Hi I think Loki should be his Norse equivalent because their both tricksters and beardless, Loki is the only beardless god in the Norse pantheon. Ghost Cacus (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

If a reliable scholarly source says he's equivalent, then we can say he's equivalent. We can't reason these things through and draw conclusions based on our own opinions. Please read the message at the top of this and every other talk-page. Haploidavey (talk) 18:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Winged sandals - meatpuppet confession

My dad 1Greenjack1 took this photo of Hermes winged sandals. I convinced him it would be good for Wikipedia but was too shy to add it to the article himself so I did it on his behalf. I believe this is considered meatpuppeting (which I explained to my boomer dad to his amusement) so I'm disclosing for fair play etc. jengod (talk) 21:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

His relationship to Odysseus

The article liberally refers to Odysseus as his great-grandson, in direct reference to the Odyssey. This feels very misinformative, since Autolycus, his grandfather, was first referred to as the son of Hermes by Ovid (likely after misreading the Odyssey, in which he blesses Autolycus for being a devoted follower). Referring to him as his grandson while discussing the Odyssey leads to the (VERY POPULAR) misconception that Hermes and Odysseus are relatives in the Odyssey, when they are not. Floreditor (talk) 15:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

In the article, this relationship is attributed to Apollodorus of Athens, not Ovid. If you can provide evidence from scholarly sources that Apollodorus was wrong, feel free to provide it.--Atlan (talk) 12:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no wrong or right here (Odysseus is a mythological character), mythological stories often have several different versions. So Apollodorus has this relationship (apparently), and Ovid too (according to Floreditor), but in the Odyssey there is (again apparently) no mention of such a relationship, so when discussing the Odyssey it is misleading to state such a relationship. Paul August ☎ 14:42, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the Odyssey does describe a relationship between Hermes and Autolycus and it's not a blood relationship; Autolycus burns top-quality sacrifices to Hermes, so Hermes befriends him and grants Autolycus certain skill(s).[1] Our Autolycus article has a table showing Hermes as Autolycus's father according to Homer, uncited and with none of the article's direct citations of the Odyssey supporting it. The Apollodorus text is a little surprising; first Autolycus is Jason's grandfather, then Autolycus son of Hermes goes on the Argo with Jason - are they the same person?[2] Ah, the joys of primary sources! NebY (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

In the table in Hermes#Lovers, victims and children, we do cite "Scholia on Homer, Iliad, 10. 266" and "Eustathius on Homer, 804" for Autolycus being a child of Hermes. I hope those haven't been mistaken for the Iliad or Odyssey themselves. (As citations, those rather fail us; I wonder if they've been taken from some secondary source which should be cited as referencing thus.) NebY (talk) 18:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

“ If you can provide evidence from scholarly sources that Apollodorus was wrong” — as the other commenter mentioned, that isn’t how a mythology works. There is not “wrong” myths. All myths are equally correct and valid, just different sources.

In the context of the Odyssey it is very misleading to refer to them as being related. We should refer to characters based on the stories we are talking about, and not try to narrativize different, unrelated myths by linking them together.

What you are advocating for here is appealing to the lowest common denominator of mythology. Rather than saying “Autolycus has no father in the Odyssey” you think we should say “Autolycus’ father was Hermes” even though it wouldn’t be mentioned for another 1,000 years.

Calling him his great-grandson also leads to a misunderstanding of the Odyssey as a whole. Odysseus is not exceptional because he is related to a god, he is exceptional because he is a cunning hero, and favored by the gods. Hermes isn’t his grandpa, he’s his ally. Floreditor (talk) 02:35, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I only used the term "wrong" because you said Hermes being related to Odysseus is a misconception. Indeed, you still seem to be arguing the statement is wrong even though you agree there is no right or wrong when it comes to mythical characters. That said, I do think you make a good point where sources contradict each other and how in this case that is not very well reflected in the article.--Atlan (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Floreditor is suggesting there is any truth or falsity to the claim "Odysseus is the great-grandson of Hermes", just that the use of the phrase In the Odyssey, Hermes helps his great-grand son, the protagonist Odysseus... would be problematic, as it implies that Odysseus is the great-grandson of Hermes in the Odyssey, which is not the case. – Michael Aurel (talk) 06:11, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

As you say, Autolycus is not the son of Hermes in the Odyssey, and I've removed the mention of Odysseus as his great-grandson. – Michael Aurel (talk) 04:49, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to Floreditor, for raising the issue, and to Michael Aurel, for addressing it. Paul August ☎ 13:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)