Commons:Categories for discussion/2019/01/Category:Highland (council area)
This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.
Most of the categories here use "Highland council area" instead of "Highland (council area) while the articles and categories on WP use "Foo (council area)", see w:Category:Highland (council area). The other 2 categories here of Category:Falkirk council area and Category:Stirling council area use the term without brackets. While Commons categories are often different to the WP article and category when disambiguation is needed, its less common in other cases since we tend to go by what they have unless we think its incorrect (since after all we are an independent project, even though we don't want to repeat debates resulted there). @Rodhullandemu: who has had much involvement here. IMO consistency for the Highland tree is desirable here but if we use "Highland council area" it might be worth looking to see if the WP articles and categories should be renamed per W:WP:NATURAL. Also note that the {{Council areas of Scotland}} is producing 2 entries for Highland, one linking "Highland council area" and one "Highland (council area). Which probably needs to be fixed for the others since redirects will be needed (especially if WP uses those titles). Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:16, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- The {{Council areas of Scotland}} fix was intended to be temporary pending harmonisation of all categories under Category:Highland council area; that way links are preserved pro tem. As for the category, I see no need for unnecessary brackets. Category:Highland council area is perfectly clear without them. We are experts on categorisations here, since we do it all the time, whereas en:WP seems to make it up as they go along. They make gazillions of mistakes, so shouldn't be regarded as authoritative. And, TBH, any project that still has me blocked seven years later and hasn't realised how counter-productive that is doesn't deserve my respect. Rodhullandemu (talk) 20:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- The comment about following WP was in largely in response to you're comment on my talk page about the fact that I moved Shetland>Shetland Islands after a discussion on WP that was nearly a decade old. As noted while the OS and Britannica uses "Orkney Islands" and "Shetland Islands", they use just "Highland"[1][2]. If we to use the version without brackets shouldn't it be Category:Highland Council Area instead like Category:Warwick District? Obviously Orkney/Shetland Islands and Highland are different in that Highland clearly requires disambiguation but Orkney/Shetland Islands are far less ambiguous. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
- There is some discussion on the name at w:Highland (council area)#Name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 13:03, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on this. Just do whatever you think will improve Commons. Multichill (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Disambiguation in the title should parenthetical after the natural title, which by w:Highland (council area)#Name appears to actually be 'the Highlands' in natural speak. One might say, "I live in the Highlands.", or rather formally state, "I live in the Highland Council area.", but would not say, "I live in Highland.". Thus:
| Proposal A | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 | Category:Highland (council area) | Move to/Rename as | Category:Highlands (council area) | |
| Category:Aerial photographs of Highland council area | Move to/Rename as | Category:Aerial photographs of the Highlands (council area) | |
- Naturally other subs would be likewise renamed. @Rodhullandemu and Crouch, Swale: comments? Josh (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Joshbaumgartner: "The Highlands" and " Highland council area" are not coterminous and so are not interchangeable. The Highlands includes the Council Areas of Angus and Moray. Highland council area does not. "The Highlands" distinguishes the north of Scotland from the south, known as "The Lowlands". "Highlands council area" is not a legally recognised term in the local government structure of Scotland. So, I'm sorry, but your proposal is simply incorrect. Cheers. Rodhullandemu (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Fair enough... drop the 's'. Josh (talk) 06:42, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Rodhullandemu is correct, the council area is not written with an "s" and covers different areas anyway. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Fair enough... drop the 's'. Josh (talk) 06:42, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Joshbaumgartner: "The Highlands" and " Highland council area" are not coterminous and so are not interchangeable. The Highlands includes the Council Areas of Angus and Moray. Highland council area does not. "The Highlands" distinguishes the north of Scotland from the south, known as "The Lowlands". "Highlands council area" is not a legally recognised term in the local government structure of Scotland. So, I'm sorry, but your proposal is simply incorrect. Cheers. Rodhullandemu (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
| Proposal B | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 | Category:Highland (council area) | Keep | ||
| Category:Aerial photographs of Highland council area | Move to/Rename as | Category:Aerial photographs of Highland (council area) | |
- @Joshbaumgartner: I don't understand this obsession Wikipedia has with brackets. Taxonomically, brackets mean "is a". "Highland" is too imprecise a term to be usable for a category, whereas "Highland council area" (like Falkirk council area and Stirling council area) is beyond doubt as to its meaning. It does not need any brackets. The only difference is that Falkirk and Stirling are also cities/towns and Highland is not, but we still need to use "council area" to achieve the precision I mentioned earlier. Rodhullandemu (talk) 06:56, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Obsession or not, that is the standard method of including disambiguation information in the name of a category on Commons. Commons is not bound by the taxonomic standard you claim, so that isn't really relevant to the matter. If you want to change this very high-level policy, then by all means feel free to launch that discussion, but that would need to be discussed on a much broader basis than a CfD such as this one. We are also not bound to exactly represent official names, though they should be an important guidance for us. Commons category names should be naturally readable, commonly understood names with disambiguation information in parenthesis as appropriate. Josh (talk) 07:08, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- In any case I think we need consistency with Stirling and Falkirk, while they might not be completely comparable because people are more likely to need to disambiguate a council area named after a settlement than one named after a geographical area. I would lean towards using "Highland (council area)" per WP since sources like the OS and EB but indeed the term without brackets is recognizable to. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Crouch, Swale: Indeed, consistency within Category:Council areas of Scotland is a valid reason to seek a name change. I would agree that either all council areas should either include "council area" in their name (e.g. Category:Highland council area) or only have parenthetical dab info when needed to differentiate their base name from other categories (e.g. Category:Highland (council area). It is having some one way and some the other that is the biggest problem, and, like you, I would lean toward the parenthetical dab info as the prefered method as per your citations and as being the most inline with other Commons category names. Josh (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Joshbaumgartner: yes or proposal C but indeed I'd go with A but use the singular since its a proper noun. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:36, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Crouch, Swale: Indeed, consistency within Category:Council areas of Scotland is a valid reason to seek a name change. I would agree that either all council areas should either include "council area" in their name (e.g. Category:Highland council area) or only have parenthetical dab info when needed to differentiate their base name from other categories (e.g. Category:Highland (council area). It is having some one way and some the other that is the biggest problem, and, like you, I would lean toward the parenthetical dab info as the prefered method as per your citations and as being the most inline with other Commons category names. Josh (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
- In any case I think we need consistency with Stirling and Falkirk, while they might not be completely comparable because people are more likely to need to disambiguate a council area named after a settlement than one named after a geographical area. I would lean towards using "Highland (council area)" per WP since sources like the OS and EB but indeed the term without brackets is recognizable to. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Obsession or not, that is the standard method of including disambiguation information in the name of a category on Commons. Commons is not bound by the taxonomic standard you claim, so that isn't really relevant to the matter. If you want to change this very high-level policy, then by all means feel free to launch that discussion, but that would need to be discussed on a much broader basis than a CfD such as this one. We are also not bound to exactly represent official names, though they should be an important guidance for us. Commons category names should be naturally readable, commonly understood names with disambiguation information in parenthesis as appropriate. Josh (talk) 07:08, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Joshbaumgartner: I don't understand this obsession Wikipedia has with brackets. Taxonomically, brackets mean "is a". "Highland" is too imprecise a term to be usable for a category, whereas "Highland council area" (like Falkirk council area and Stirling council area) is beyond doubt as to its meaning. It does not need any brackets. The only difference is that Falkirk and Stirling are also cities/towns and Highland is not, but we still need to use "council area" to achieve the precision I mentioned earlier. Rodhullandemu (talk) 06:56, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
| Proposal C | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Category:Highland (council area) | Move to/Rename as | Category:Highlands Council Area | |
| Category:Aerial photographs of Highland council area | Move to/Rename as | Category:Aerial photographs of Highland Council Area | |
Support Proposal C but with "Highland" and without "the". "Highland Council Area" is a perfecly adequate noun phrase for what we mean to say. Can we just get on with this? Rodhullandemu (talk) 11:37, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I agree with removing the the like Category:Maps of Babergh District rather than Category:Maps of the Babergh District. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:37, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Adjusted. I'm all for moving forward, but we should at minimum allow the two week period to elapse for further comments before closing. Josh (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Especially given we might be better sticking with "Highland (council area)" per the 31 January 2020 comment. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:04, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- Adjusted. I'm all for moving forward, but we should at minimum allow the two week period to elapse for further comments before closing. Josh (talk) 18:08, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I agree with removing the the like Category:Maps of Babergh District rather than Category:Maps of the Babergh District. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:37, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe the status quo is OK, the set categories are effectively descriptive titles while the topic category is a proper noun. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
| This category discussion has been closed. | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Consensus | None | |||
| Actions | None | |||
| Participants | ||||
| Notes | This is a 5 year old CfD where the last comment is from 4 years ago. So it's clearly stale and there's no consensus to change things. Therefore I'm closing the CfD as with that as the outcome. I think the last comment makes sense anyway. Although anyone who disagrees with me is free to revisit this at a later time with a clearer justification for why the change should be made by starting a new CfD. | |||
| Closed by | --Adamant1 (talk) 04:29, 28 June 2024 (UTC) | |||