Commons:Categories for discussion/2021/11/Category:Tracht

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Category:Tracht

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What should be the new name for this category because of harmonization, see Commons:Categories for discussion/2020/07/Category:Traditional clothes by country? JopkeB (talk) 03:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
One of the conclusions of this discussion was to "harmonize the names of all the other subcategories of Category:Traditional clothing, so that they all would start with "Traditional clothing" (see Commons:Categories#Universality principle)..." What would be a good name instead of "Tracht"? Category:Traditional clothing of German speaking regions? Does anyone has a better suggestion? --JopkeB (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The English terminology is, perhaps surprisingly, en:Tracht. Therefore, I propose to keep it on Commons as it is. --NearEMPTiness (talk) 11:36, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tracht. There is absolutely no reason to change it.
If you must create Category:Traditional clothing of German speaking regions, then make it a redirect. Or a supercategory, as perhaps there is other clothing that is traditional, yet not tracht. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:42, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep solution per enwiki--Estopedist1 (talk) 12:25, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all for your contributions. My comment:

  1. @Andy Dingley: Yes of coarse there will be a redirect, that happens automatically when renaming a category.
  2. @Andy Dingley, NearEMPTiness, and Estopedist1: Your solution to keep Category:Tracht would be very convenient for Themightyquill and me: it would save us a lot of work. But that is the easy road, not necessarily the best way to go.
  3. Commons is not EN WP. The conclusion of the discussion about the name of the main category on Commons was not to use the same name as in EN WP, en:Folk costume, but Traditional clothing.
  4. For me, as a native Dutch speaker, "Tracht" is very recognizable (in Dutch: Klederdracht), that also might be the case for Danish (Folkedragt), Norwegian (Nasjonaldrakt) and Swedish (Folkdräkt) and of coarse for the German speaking countries. But the rest of the world will not recognize this word. That might be the reason for the Commons principle that names of categories should be in English and the Commons:Categories#Universality principle, which explicitly says: "local dialects and terminology should be supressed in favour of universality if possible". So why should we deviate from these Common principles for Tracht?

--JopkeB (talk) 05:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@JopkeB: can you find evidences that there is well-established English word for German term "Tracht". If you will find it, I can start discussion in enwiki to get more input--Estopedist1 (talk) 06:39, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Estopedist1: I do not see any difference with other Traditional clothing of other countries; yes, they differ from each other, from country to country and within countries, but the Tracht does not differ so much from Traditional clothing in other countries that it deserves a special treatment. Otherwise the categories with traditional clothing of all the other countries should also have their own names. For me Tracht is just Traditional clothing of an ethnic group‎, in this case of German speaking people, like there is a category for Category:Slavic traditional clothing‎, also a language group. So I would ask you: what is so different about Tracht that it deserves an exception, a special treatment? --JopkeB (talk) 09:58, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The English word for Tracht is Tracht. There is no other word. This is not seen as "the traditional clothing" in the broad sense, it's seen as one specific style of it. If there are other styles (which I as an English speaker have no knowledge of) then add Category:Swabian duck-hunting boots to Category:Traditional clothing of German speaking regions as necessary. The idea that "items should have identical names for all countries and at all levels of categorization." is appalling and should be corrected. It's inaccurate, it discards all WP principles of sourcing and No OR and it's a cultural land-grab for America. At root it's that persistent misunderstanding that Mediawiki categorization requires matching names (it certainly doesn't). Andy Dingley (talk) 10:57, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If tracht is just one specific style of traditional clothing in German-speaking regions, there's no need to create Category:Traditional clothing of German speaking regions. Category:Tracht can continue to exist, with Category:Tracht by country as a sub-category, and there could be Category:Traditional clothing in Germany with Category:Tracht in Germany as a subcategory. On the other hand, if "Tracht" is just the German-language word for "Traditional clothing" then we have a bigger problem. Because in Sweden en:Nationella dräkten means the same as "Traditional clothing in Sweden". In Norway, they have en:Bunad, in Iceland Þjóðbúningurinn and in Hungary hu:Magyar népviselet. I could surely go on. - Themightyquill (talk) 20:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I can find a large number of entries regarding indische Tracht (Indian traditional clothing), but this is not what one would initially think about, when reading the term Tracht. --NearEMPTiness (talk) 15:25, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@NearEMPTiness: In German, it clearly means the same as traditional clothing. You can google "chinesische tracht" and just about every other culture for evidence. The question is if, as suggested, the English word "tracht" has taken on another more specific meaning related to German-speaking regions. - Themightyquill (talk) 14:31, 25 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusions so far

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  1. There is no agreement about a correct name for the Commons category for traditional clothing of German speaking countries, now still "Tracht".
  2. Pro keeping "Tracht":
    1. The terminology in EN Wikipedia is en:Tracht. So there is no reason to change the name in Commons.
    2. There is no other word. This is not seen as "the traditional clothing" in the broad sense, it's seen as one specific style of it.
    3. There is no agreement about the idea that "items should have identical names for all countries and at all levels of categorization".
    4. Keeping Category:Tracht and it's subcategories would save a lot of work for Commons volunteers.
  3. Anti "Tracht":
    1. We would like to get rid of all the different category names about traditional clothing in Category:Traditional clothing. Main requirements for category names :
      1. identical items should have identical names for all countries and at all levels of categorization, see Commons:Categories#Universality principle (so, in this case: should start with "Traditional clothing")
      2. should be in English, see Commons:Categories#Category names
      3. "local dialects and terminology should be supressed in favour of universality if possible", see Commons:Categories#Universality principle.
    2. Commons is not EN WP. In Commons we make our own considerations and decisions.
    3. Many Common users will not recognize the word "Tracht".
  4. Still open: What is so different about "Tracht" that it deserves an exception?
    1. The only justification to keep "Tracht" is if it is one specific style of traditional clothing in German speaking countries, next to other styles in those countries. Then there should be a definition of that style with characteristics.
    2. But if "Tracht" is just the German-language word for "Traditional clothing" then we cannot keep "Tracht". Otherwise we should change all the subcategories about traditional clothing by country to the local names, and we just decided that we want to get rid of all the different names.
    3. It looks indeed like "Tracht" is just the German-language word for "Traditional clothing", because a Google search with "indische tracht" shows 62 results with German-language websites, while Indian traditional clothing has nothing to do with traditional clothing in German speaking countries.

Please add your comments, solutions and other proposals to solve this stalemate/impasse. --JopkeB (talk) 11:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

From my point of view, a de:Talar (Category:Academic dress) is a traditional clothing of German speaking countries but it isn't a Tracht. However, please check de:Kategorie:Amtstracht (christliche Geistliche) and de:Kategorie:Berufstracht. --NearEMPTiness (talk) 15:19, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would you know the difference between "Tracht" and "Traditional clothing" in German speaking countries?

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(From User talk:32X#Would you know the difference between "Tracht" and "Traditional clothing" in German speaking countries?:)

I saw your change on w:de:Sorbische Trachten and drew the conclusion that you might help in an old discussion. A few years ago, one of the conclusions in Commons:Categories for discussion/2020/07/Category:Traditional clothes by country was that all the subcategory names of Category:Traditional clothing should be harmonized. That has almost been finished. But we did not know whether "Tracht" is just the German word for "Traditional clothing" in German speaking countries, OR that it is one specific style of traditional clothing in German speaking countries, next to other styles in those countries. Could you tell the difference? If there are indeed differences, could you point out the characteristics? JopkeB (talk) 04:51, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello JopkeB, it's hard to tell. For the Sorbian Tracht, I can tell you, it's a traditional clothing with strict rules. There were colour codings for young, engaged, and married women, some regions knew five or more different states for mourning clothes, and so on. So I'd say, it's traditional clothing with a ruleset. -- kind regards, 32X (talk) 16:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reaction. This is a step forward. JopkeB (talk) 02:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All categories below Category:Tracht

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I want to solve a mess. Following en:Tracht, Tracht is the (regional and internationally accepted) name for traditional clothing in German speaking countries and regions (*). Therefor it is correct, to find that category in Category:Traditional clothing by ethnic group. However below Category:Tracht there is no common rule wheter to call the categories Traditional costumes of region XY or Tracht from region XY. Some examples:

(* However, in the German Wikipedia, Tracht is also used in relation to traditional costumes from non-German speaking countries: see usage inside the articles of de:Spanische Kleidermode or de:Sari or even the Lemma de:Koreanische Tracht which is used (instead of en:Hanbok) for reasons of neutrality as in North Korea, the traditional costume is called Chosŏnot) As Tracht seems to be an established proper noun (cf. eg. he:תלבושת מיסבאך), my suggestion is to change all categories below Category:Tracht to Tracht from region XY. Are there objections? Greetings, --Qaswed (talk) 08:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Qaswed: Thank you very much for reviving this discussion. I hope we now can find answers and draw conclusions. And it looks like you know more about this subject than I do. I agree this is a mess. And I may be partly to blame. After the closing of Commons:Categories for discussion/2020/07/Category:Traditional clothes by country, I changed a lot of the categories involved, for all countries. But for Germany (and other German speaking countries) there were several category names, not only with "Traditional costumes", which I all changed to "Traditional clothing" (I might have missed Category:Traditional costumes from Württemberg), but there were also a lot of categories with "Tracht". That made me wonder whether "Tracht" is a special kind of Traditional clothing. Therefor I started a new discussion (this one) about this question. But uptill now there was no clear outcome.
My main question still is:
  • Do we indeed need a Category:Tracht? Or can we skipp this category and just have categories "Traditional clothing in XY"? What would be so special and different about Tracht that it needs a category of its own, while all other countries have categories "Traditional clothing in AB"? Those countries also have special names/words in their own language for their traditional clothing/costumes (which they might rather use, but on Commons we have the Universality principle, where you are implicitly referring to), so why should it be different for the German speaking countries? So my proposal would be to rename all subcategories to "Traditional clothing in XY" unless there is a very good reason not to.
JopkeB (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @JopkeB: , I think "Traditional clothing in XY" would work in general. The main argument for Tracht from region XY is that "de:Miesbacher Tracht", "de:Betzinger Tracht", "de:Schwälmer Tracht" are established proper nouns. So on the lowest level, I would use the established names. Like it is currently done with Category:Traditional clothing of Korea --> Category:Hanbok. Or Category:Funfairs in Baden-Württemberg --> Category:Cannstatter Volksfest (and not Category:Funfair in Cannstatt). --Qaswed (talk) 12:47, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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