Commons:Deletion requests/PAHMC
PAHMC
[edit]- Basics of what is happening here
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- This discussion is trying to figure out what should be done with the 180+ images in Category:Pennsylvania state historical markers, which all contain photos of Pennsylvania state historical markers, which have been created by Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission. According to that organization's webpage at Historical Marker Image Request, "markers are the registered trademark of PHMC and the text is copyright protected." Clearly, this needs to be sorted out in a logical manner.
- Based on that, I have nominated each of these images for deletion, but noted situations where, based on Commons copyright tags, the text of the marker may fall within Commons:Project scope.
- Each of these files is a photograph that includes some portion of a historical marker. Therefore, the principles of Commons:Derivative works applies: there is a separate copyright for the photographer and for the marker. Based on Commons:Assume good faith, we can assume that the photograph is properly freely licensed. For the purpose here, only the copyright of the marker's text is being discussed.
- The Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission has claimed trademark rights over the signs, so no matter what, {{Trademark}} should be applied to all images. (Note that Commons:Non-copyright_restrictions#Trademark_law applies).
- The copyright requirements have changed over the years, so depending on when the marker was created/published/dedicated, different rules apply. The following groupings are an attempt to consider each time period separately.
- Marker dedicated 1989 to present
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- These are automatically copyrighted. No need for notice or registration.
- File:Hummelstown, Pennsylvania (8481480815).jpg - 2012
- File:Gobblers Knob - Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania (7086950095).jpg - 2010
- File:Historical marker PA-USA Frank N Piasecki 002.png - April 17, 2010
- File:Meadville, Pennsylvania (8483087426).jpg - 2010
- File:Historical marker Baldwin Locomotive Works.jpg - 2009
- File:Rockville Bridge - Pennsylvania (5656770409).jpg - 2009
- File:Corry, Pennsylvania (4826015727).jpg - 2008
- File:Scranton, Pennsylvania (4111289169).jpg - 2008
- File:9thStreetMarker.JPG - 2007
- File:Easton, Pennsylvania (6616785325).jpg - 2007
- File:Milford, Pennsylvania (4208820934).jpg - 2007
- File:2010-11-08 15th and JFK Phila PA USA.jpg - 2006
- File:2010-11-08 15th and JFK Phila PA USA.png - 2006
- File:Pittston, Pennsylvania (4111305527).jpg - 2006
- File:Cyrus Curtis.JPG - 2005
- File:Philly sports venues (4041595150).jpg - 2005
- File:Clearfield, Pennsylvania (7083510925).jpg - 2004
- File:Betzwood Motion Picture Studio.jpg - 2003
- File:Dobbins landing.jpg - September 13, 2003
- File:Hershey Pennsylvania 1.JPG - 2003
- File:Bellefonte, PA (3459160334).jpg - 2002
- File:Chambersburg, Pennsylvania (4037094150).jpg - 2002
- File:Eagle Grange Historical Marker.JPG - 2001
- File:Fort Hunter, Pennsylvania (5656723829).jpg - 2001
- File:Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (8482560921).jpg - 2001
- File:2011-08-10 Thomas E Cahill marker cropped.jpg - 2000
- File:Laurel Hill Cemetery historical marker.jpg - May 20, 2000
- File:Baker Bowl 2011.JPG - 2000
- File:BroadStStaMarker.JPG - 1999
- File:Indiana, Pennsylvania (4826027245).jpg - 1998
- File:Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (8482557791).jpg - 1997
- File:Shibe Park marker.jpg - 1997
- File:Eastern State Penitentiary Sign.jpg - 1996
- File:Lamade Grit Historical Marker.JPG - 1996
- File:Eastern State Penitentiary Sign.jpg - 1996
- File:Historical Marker for Father Divine.JPG - 1994
- File:Historical marker Robert Cornelius 02.jpg - 1994
- File:Rev. John Corbley.jpg - 1994
- File:Cambria City marker.JPG - 1994
- File:Washington, Pennsylvania (8484594960).jpg - 1994
- File:Easton, Pennsylvania (6616832883).jpg - 1993
- File:Shohola, Pennsylvania.jpg - 1993
- File:Bellefonte, PA (3459168024).jpg - 1992
- File:First pro football game landmarker.jpg - November 03, 1992
- File:Historical marker AME book concern 02.jpg - 1991
- File:Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (8482479999).jpg - 1990
- File:WTP A16 Techserv 1.jpg - 1990
- Unknown/Not clear
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- Publication date on these markers is unclear. It is not apparent from photo and http://search.pahistoricalmarkers.com/ does not have dedication date. Without more information, these should probably be deleted under Commons:Project scope/Precautionary principle.
- Marker dedicated 1978 to 1989.
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- These are possibly under {{PD-US-1978-89}} (Published 1978 and March 1, 1989 without notice and not subsequently registered within 5 years). No copyright notice (i.e. © Year) apparent on the face of these markers and no subsequent registration apparent at http://www.copyright.gov/records
- File:AlleghenyCountyMarker.jpg - 1981
- File:Bellefonte, PA (3459164466).jpg - 1981
- File:Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania (9).jpg - 1981
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656225294).jpg - 1981
- File:Chambersburg, Pennsylvania (4036343255).jpg - 1981
- File:Clearfield, Pennsylvania (6937429782).jpg - 1981
- File:Clinton County Historical Marker.JPG - 1981
- File:Danville, Pennsylvania (5656848393).jpg - 1981
- File:Indiana, Pennsylvania (4826026947).jpg - 1981
- File:Jefferson County PA historical-marker Brookville.jpg - 1981
- File:Lititz, Pennsylvania (4037109186).jpg - 1980
- File:Lycoming County Historical Marker.JPG - 1981
- File:Mansfield, Pennsylvania (4302861519).jpg - 1986
- File:Middleburg, Pennsylvania (4036369045).jpg - 1981
- File:Mifflintown, Pennsylvania (4143237427).jpg - 1981
- File:Montrose, PA (3790840592).jpg - 1981
- File:New Bloomfield, Pennsylvania (4143282045).jpg - 1981
- File:PittsburghCoalMiningPAHistoricalMarker.JPG - 1985
- File:Ridgway, Pennsylvania (8482817667).jpg - 1981
- File:Scranton, Pennsylvania (4112058140).jpg - 1981
- File:SteelWorkersHistoricalMarket.JPG - 1986
- File:Washington, Pennsylvania (8483491583).jpg - 1981
- File:Printz.JPG - April 09, 1988
- Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice
- File:Sheshequin Path Historical Marker.JPG - 1946
- File:Honesdale, Pennsylvania (4094618057).jpg - May 28, 1947
- File:Chambersburg, Pennsylvania (4037093558).jpg - 1947
- File:Scranton, Pennsylvania (4112057448).jpg - 1947
- File:Buffalo Cross Roads, Pennsylvania (6921300666).jpg - 1948
- File:Delaware Canal State Park PHMC Marker.jpg - 1948
- File:Ephrata Cloister - Ephrata, Pennsylvania (5655257069).jpg - 1948
- File:Great Island Historical Marker.JPG - 1948
- File:Great Shamokin Path Historical Marker.JPG - 1949
- File:Pine Grove, Pennsylvania (4102785676).jpg - 1949
- File:Robert Fulton Birthplace (2903265468).jpg - 1978
- File:Masontown, Pennsylvania (8483062962).jpg - November 23, 1946
- File:Tiadaghton Elm Historical Marker.JPG - April 30, 1947
- File:Bally, Pennsylvania (5655519400).jpg - April 30, 1947
- File:Tunkhannock, PA (3587862466).jpg - May 01, 1947
- File:Fort Antes Marker.JPG - May 01, 1947
- File:Bellefonte, PA (3459162100).jpg - May 08, 1947
- File:Towanda, Pennsylvania (4102803894).jpg - May 12, 1947
- File:Athens, Pennsylvania (4102772428).jpg - May 12, 1947
- File:Washington, Pennsylvania (8483487791).jpg - May 28, 1947
- File:Honesdale, Pennsylvania (4095377056) (2).jpg - May 28, 1947
- File:Fort Hunter, Pennsylvania (5656723609).jpg - July 03, 1947
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5655598779).jpg - July 30, 1947
- File:Bryn Athyn Cathedral - Pennsylvania (4825981949).jpg - September 10, 1947
- File:McPherson Ridge Gettysburg Hist Marker.jpg - December 12, 1947
- File:Smethport, Pennsylvania (7089270597).jpg - August 08, 1949
- File:Smethport, Pennsylvania (7089270933).jpg - August 08, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656223514).jpg - October 20, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5655637323).jpg - October 21, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656218266).jpg - October 21, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656227694).jpg - November 30, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656235530).jpg - November 30, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656236656).jpg - November 30, 1949
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656228566).jpg - December 06, 1949
- File:Great Shamokin Path.jpg - October 16, 1950
- File:Breezewood PA Forbes Road Historical Marker.jpg - January 09, 1952
- File:Easton, Pennsylvania (6616734015).jpg - July 20, 1953
- File:Easton, Pennsylvania (6616782811).jpg - July 20, 1953
- File:Washington, Pennsylvania (8484592250).jpg - August 01, 1953
- File:Globe Inn historical marker.jpg - August 01, 1953
- File:LeMoyne House historical marker.jpg - August 01, 1953
- File:Minquas Markers RV.JPG - August 01, 1953
- File:Chambersburg, Pennsylvania (4036343555).jpg - August 01, 1953
- File:David Bradford House historical marker.jpg - August 01, 1953
- File:Edward Acheson birthplace marker.jpg - August 01, 1953
- File:Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (8479725313).jpg - October 13, 1953
- File:Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (8479734157).jpg - October 13, 1953
- File:Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (8480803930).jpg - October 13, 1953
- File:Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (8480820982).jpg - October 13, 1953
- File:Mikveh Israel Cemetery sign.jpg - http://search.pahistoricalmarkers.com marks "N/A" - A call to the PHMC placed it at 1953
- File:Washington, Pennsylvania (8484569202).jpg - February 02, 1954
- File:Gettysburg, Pennsylvania (6286098834).jpg - September 01, 1954
- File:Lewisburg, Pennsylvania (4036354847).jpg - January 03, 1955
- File:Old State Road Sign .jpg - February 08, 1955
- File:Shartlesville, Pennsylvania (8484149718).jpg - June 26, 1959
- File:The Big Spring .jpg - June 26, 1959
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656215574).jpg - November 3, 1961
- File:Crooked Billet historical marker.jpg - May 01, 1965
- File:Widow Smith.jpg - May 25, 1967
- File:AlleghenyArsenal.jpg - June 01, 1967
- File:VFWHistoricMarkerPittsburgh.jpg - September 16, 1967
- File:Honesdale, Pennsylvania (4094616597).jpg - August 26, 1968
- File:Girard, Pennsylvania (4883435899).jpg - August 21, 1974
- Post-1989 copies of markers originally set up between 1964 and 1977
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- See Stefan4's 4th bullet under Delete
- File:Carlisle, Pennsylvania (5656192964).jpg - This marker dedicated 2005, but marker text appears to be identical earlier version dedicated July 01, 1947
- File:Gov Simon Snyder Mansion marker Oct 09.JPG - This marker dedicated 2007, but marker text appears to be identical earlier version dedicated originally dedicated September 30, 1947
- File:Garard's Fort.jpg - This marker dedicated 2001, but marker text appears to be identical earlier version dedicated May 23, 1958
- File:Bethlehem, Pennsylvania (8479711157).jpg - This marker dedicated 1998, but marker text appears to be identical earlier version dedicated May 08, 1969
- De minimis
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- The historical marker is not the subject of the photo and may qualify as {{De minimis}}, regardless of the date of publication/copyright status of the marker
- File:1724 Chester Courhouse.JPG
- File:Barracks PHMC.JPG
- File:Brandywine Mansion.JPG
- File:Brashear House.jpg
- File:Carbon County Prison Sides 2724px.jpg
- File:Carbon County Prison Wide 3008px.jpg
- File:Catawissa Friends Meetinghouse.jpg
- File:Chambersburg FD.JPG
- File:Chester Courthouse 1724 a.JPG
- File:Colonial Mansion Lancaster PHMC.JPG
- File:Colonial Mansion Lancaster.jpg
- File:CrawG013 Fix.jpg
- File:CrawG013.jpg
- File:DavidBradfordHouse.jpg
- File:Demuth Lancaster PHMC.JPG
- File:Edwin forrest house01.jpg
- File:Espy House Bedford Pennsylvania.jpg
- File:Ft Lafayette marker Pittsb jeh.jpg
- File:Gemeinhaus, Bethlehem.jpg
- File:Gov Simon Snyder Mansion Oct 09.JPG
- File:HarmonyPAmuseum.jpg
- File:LeMoyne House.jpg
- File:Masonic Temple Cburg.JPG
- File:Montgomery House Montour Co PA.jpg
- File:Old York Cty Courthouse.JPG
- File:OldEconomyVillageCemetery.jpg
- File:Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia.jpg
- File:Phila Berean Institute02.png
- File:Philander Knox House.jpg
- File:Race St Meeting.JPG
- File:Robert Fulton Birthplace.jpg
- File:Roman Catholic High School Philly.jpg
- File:SamBarberWChesterPA.JPG
- File:St. Peter's Kierch.jpg
- File:Star of the West W Chester.JPG
- File:Studebaker 1790 East Berlin PA.JPG
- File:Thompson Grain Elevator and Coal Sheds.jpg
- File:Washington, Pennsylvania (8483499195).jpg
- File:Whitehill-Gleason Motors.jpg
- File:William Everhart Buildings West Chester PA.jpg
- File:Wm Darlington West Chester PA.JPG
- File:Wm Goodridge House.JPG
- File:Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 1.jpg
- File:Zane Grey House, Lackawaxen, PA.jpg
- All of the images inthe group above are clearly beyond a doubt de minimus -- some of them so much so that I couldn't find the damned marker -- and should never have been tagged for deletion in the first place. Historical buildings often have historical markers in front of them or on them, and it is not the purpose of the copyright protection of those markers to prevent photos from being taken of those buildings, the right to which is codified specifically in copyright law. I am all for following the law, and understand that photographs of historical markers per se are problematic, but extending that argument to images such as these is patently absurd. Therefore, I have boldly removed the deletion tags from all the images in this group, which should really never have been tagged in the first place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:13, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Questionable de minimis
- At least 1 editor has raised a question about whether these should or shouldn't be de minimis
- File:WestinghouseHighSchoolFront.jpg - May 27, 1995 (If not de minimis, then "Marker dedicated 1989 to present")
- File:MellonSquarePittsburgh.jpg - September 24, 1997 (If not de minimis, then "Marker dedicated 1989 to present")
- File:ForestGlenCondosSign.jpg - May 07, 2008 (If not de minimis, then "Marker dedicated 1989 to present")
- File:MtWashingtonPittsburgh.jpg - April 18, 1985 (If not deminimis, then "Marker dedicated 1978 to 1989")
- File:Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 2.jpg - October 03, 1949 (If not deminimis, then "Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice")
These are photos of Pennsylvania state historical markers dated 1990 to present day (see List of Pennsylvania state historical markers), which, according to the owners, the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, "markers are the registered trademark of PHMC and the text is copyright protected, an individual or group is required to obtain written permission from the Commission to use its trademark and copyrighted material." (See Historical Marker Image Request). The text is copyrighted.--GrapedApe (talk) 01:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- If you read the next sentence underneath the one you quoted on the PAHMC's website, you willsee that it says: "PHMC generally grants permission for use of marker images for illustrative or educational purposes."
- This would be the purpose for which all of these images, I presume, are being used on Wikipedia and its sister projects, yes? Absecon 49 (talk) 02:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- But Commons:Scope requires free licensing, including for commercial purposes.--GrapedApe (talk) 10:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- You should definitely wait for User:Ruhrfisch to reply here. He has obtained permission at OTRS for the whole lot of PMHC markers as I remember. I looked for the OTRS number on some of my old photos, but couldn't find it, so please wait for Ruhrfisch. A related question is when to use these photos - I'd say for 95% of the sites, a photo of anything else is better; but for 1% of the sites, a photo of the marker is the only thing that connects the site with the historical event. Smallbones (talk) 15:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Either the OTRS permission will release the file in a free license, in which case not only are we in the clear but the restrictions imposed by the copyright owner in excess of the free license will become pretty much moot for everyone, or the OTRS permission will not be a free license and the images will have to be deleted from the Commons (and, if eligible, transferred to en-wiki as non-free images). For the reason outlined in italics, I doubt the copyright owner would release the images under a compatible license without checking with their lawyers. Davidwr (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- In the case that brought me here (File:Cyrus Curtis.JPG), the image really isn't very important for the article. The whole issue seems silly to me, but fighting it would be equally silly. Ike9898 (talk) 15:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- I found that 4 of these signs are copies of previously published versions and should probably be kept. (See http://search.pahistoricalmarkers.com). I marked them above. Here's precedent: Commons:Deletion requests/File:Great Shamokin Path.jpg.--GrapedApe (talk) 03:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- I concur - any marker that is or which might not be "like the rest" copyright-wise needs to be discussed separately. With this in mind I think we should separate the list into three classes: Known or strongly presumed to be under copyright, those known to be not under copyright (probably none), and those with unknown copyright status. Anything first published after 1989 and created after 1977 and not the work of the US Government is almost certainly under copyright. Davidwr (talk) 15:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
- I've re-organized this a bit. The post-1989 markers are listed here for deletion. Other, likely PD markers are categorized at Commons talk:Deletion requests/PAHMC.--GrapedApe (talk) 06:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
PS The list above is already sorted and does not include PHMC markers published under the old copyright law without a copyright notice, so that their photos are free. Is it worth contacting PHMC and asking them if they would release the photos under a free license? Ruhrfisch (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is worth asking, but they may not only say "no" but they may become aggressive in enforcing their rights. Davidwr (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
- If they do, then we should welcome it. I've been making a good faith effort to clean the copyright issues in up this mess of a category (Category:Pennsylvania state historical markers), based on the various copyright tags that are used here on commons: {{PD-US-no notice}}, {{PD-US-1978-89}}, {{De minimis}}, {{Trademarked}} and simple searches of http://www.copyright.gov/records/ . If, for some reason those are off/incorrect, then, I would be OK with all of them being deleted. In fact, I would be OK with the contents of the whole category Category:Pennsylvania state historical markers being deleted out of an abundance of caution.--GrapedApe (talk) 15:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Comment Note that markers set up between 1 January 1978 and 28 February 1989 do not need a copyright notice either. A copyright notice was only needed on published copies of the markers, but starting on 1 January 1978, the definition of "publication" was changed with the effect that setting up a marker no longer counted as publication of the marker (see Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US). The text on some of the markers might have been published elsewhere, but this would need a proper source. --Stefan4 (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Delete Delete all except for deminimus images, out of an abundance of caution.--GrapedApe (talk) 21:21, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Delete:
- All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1989 to present", except possibly File:WestinghouseHighSchoolFront.jpg which might be de minimis. Undelete 120 years after installation as anonymous unpublished works.
- All images in the section "Unknown/Not clear", unless a date can be identified.
- All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1978 to 1989". Installation didn't count as publication (see Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US), so unless the texts have been published elsewhere, they should be treated as unpublished. A copyright notice is only needed on published copies. Undelete 120 years after installation as anonymous unpublished works.
- All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice" originally set up 1964-1977 but with a year later than 1977: the signs have been replaced by more recent signs. These signs are only in the public domain if the original signs lacked a copyright notice. Unfortunately, we don't know what the original signs looked like, so we can't verify this. Undelete 95 years after initial installation as published works.
Comment I isolated these images under Post-1989 copies of markers originally set up between 1964 and 1977 heading.--GrapedApe (talk) 04:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
Keep:
- All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice" set up before 1964: {{PD-US-not renewed}}, as the signs were published when they were set up.
- All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice" set up 1923-1977 with a year from that era: {{PD-US-no notice}}, as the signs were published when they were set up.
- All images in the section "De minimis", except possibly File:ForestGlenCondosSign.jpg, File:MellonSquarePittsburgh.jpg, File:MtWashingtonPittsburgh.jpg and File:Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 2.jpg (which might not be de minimis), provided that all of the revisions of the file information pages which contain annotations are deleted. The image annotations bring focus to the markers, thereby preventing all of the markers from being de minimis. --Stefan4 (talk) 21:43, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Hold off, because if I remember rightly, User:Ruhrfisch got a CC-compatible release from the PAHMC for all historical marker texts. I'll request his input. The remainder of my comment should only be considered if it turns out that no such release exists.Keep everything that's de minimis because it's de minimis; I believe that they were included here solely for the sake of comprehensiveness, as I don't get the impression that GrapedApe really is advocating for their deletion. Delete everything else that shows a copyright notice, because they're all still under copyright, although I admit I can't remember ever seeing a historical marker with a copyright notice. For all non-de minimis images lacking a copyright notice, Keep everything erected before 1978. The text of these signs is in the public domain, and deleting the images on copyright grounds would be downright harmful. Keep anything erected after 1977 if it can be shown to consist completely of text erected before that year without a copyright notice: such signs consist simply of republication of PD material. Delete everything else because all such signs either can be confirmed to be under copyright, or we can't be sure, so we need to be safe and delete them. Nyttend (talk) 04:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Ruhrfisch says on my en:wp talk that he's never gotten any such release; I must have been thinking of something else. Nyttend (talk) 13:08, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hold off and/or mixed keep/delete per Nyttend above (04:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)). Davidwr (talk) 05:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Comment FYI only: http://www.hmdb.org has historical markers from all over and it it doesn't seem to care as much about copyright as the Commons (they DO advertise that they honor DMCA takedown requests). Davidwr (talk) 05:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Nyttend and Stefan4, except that two of the images in the "questionable de minimis" category, "Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 2.jpg" and "ForestGlenCondosSign.jpg" should be kept as de minimis (although I could be convinced about the latter, the former seems clear-cut to me). The other questionables are not de minim;s because the marker is in the foreground, and the shot could easily have been taken without it. I may upload some versions of these with the marker cropped out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I have cropped out the historical marker from all the images in the "questionable" category, except "File:Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 2.jpg", because that is clearly de minimis. If the judgment here is that those images I cropped are de minimis with the markers in them, then my crop can easily be reverted. As of this moment, however, they are not longer subjects for this deletion nomination. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- Keep everything in the "ambiguous" category, as an addendum to my previous statement. I wasn't intending to suggest that these should be deleted; none of them seem clear-cut to me at the moment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the condos image, by the way — the original upload is so low-resolution that you can't even read the marker! It's not possible for a photo of copyrighted text to be a copyvio of that text if the text can't be read. Nyttend (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with what Nytend has advocated. As an aside, I called the PHMC, and they said the Mikveh Israel sign went up in the fifties. Evrik (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Did you happen to ask them about their position on releases for Commons?--GrapedApe (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I did that in 1988. They stood by what was on their website (and stopped returning my calls). Evrik (talk) 16:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Did you happen to ask them about their position on releases for Commons?--GrapedApe (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with what Nytend has advocated. As an aside, I called the PHMC, and they said the Mikveh Israel sign went up in the fifties. Evrik (talk) 15:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- There is a Sept. 1991 book "Guide to the State Historical Markers of Pennsylvania" which has the text of every PHMC marker erected to shortly before that date (it was updated in 2001 - see here). My strong assumption is that almost all markers would have had their text published when erected via coverage in newspaper articles (either direct quotation or photos). I have also seen brochures with the PHMC markers in an area listed. Not sure what effect that has on "publication". Ruhrfisch (talk) 02:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- For one example, I checked the Wellsboro, Pennsylvania online newspaper archive and the complete text of the PHMC Nessmuk marker was published back when it was posted in 1972. See here for the news article, and here is the PHMC page on the marker (which gives its 1972 date and full text). Ruhrfisch (talk) 02:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps on the category page, we can post a warning about what may be posted and what may not be posted. This is not the first time this discussion has occurred: Commons:Deletion requests/Images of PAHistorical&MuseumCommissionMarkers. Evrik (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Deleted some, kept most . Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 11:50, 23 November 2013 (UTC)