Commons:Deletion requests/PAHMC

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

PAHMC

[edit]
Basics of what is happening here
  1. Each of these files is a photograph that includes some portion of a historical marker. Therefore, the principles of Commons:Derivative works applies: there is a separate copyright for the photographer and for the marker. Based on Commons:Assume good faith, we can assume that the photograph is properly freely licensed. For the purpose here, only the copyright of the marker's text is being discussed.
  2. The Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission has claimed trademark rights over the signs, so no matter what, {{Trademark}} should be applied to all images. (Note that Commons:Non-copyright_restrictions#Trademark_law applies).
  3. The copyright requirements have changed over the years, so depending on when the marker was created/published/dedicated, different rules apply. The following groupings are an attempt to consider each time period separately.
Marker dedicated 1989 to present
These are automatically copyrighted. No need for notice or registration.
Unknown/Not clear
Publication date on these markers is unclear. It is not apparent from photo and http://search.pahistoricalmarkers.com/ does not have dedication date. Without more information, these should probably be deleted under Commons:Project scope/Precautionary principle.
Marker dedicated 1978 to 1989.
These are possibly under {{PD-US-1978-89}} (Published 1978 and March 1, 1989 without notice and not subsequently registered within 5 years). No copyright notice (i.e. © Year) apparent on the face of these markers and no subsequent registration apparent at http://www.copyright.gov/records
Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice
Post-1989 copies of markers originally set up between 1964 and 1977
See Stefan4's 4th bullet under Delete
De minimis
The historical marker is not the subject of the photo and may qualify as {{De minimis}}, regardless of the date of publication/copyright status of the marker
  • All of the images inthe group above are clearly beyond a doubt de minimus -- some of them so much so that I couldn't find the damned marker -- and should never have been tagged for deletion in the first place. Historical buildings often have historical markers in front of them or on them, and it is not the purpose of the copyright protection of those markers to prevent photos from being taken of those buildings, the right to which is codified specifically in copyright law. I am all for following the law, and understand that photographs of historical markers per se are problematic, but extending that argument to images such as these is patently absurd. Therefore, I have boldly removed the deletion tags from all the images in this group, which should really never have been tagged in the first place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:13, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Questionable de minimis


These are photos of Pennsylvania state historical markers dated 1990 to present day (see List of Pennsylvania state historical markers), which, according to the owners, the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, "markers are the registered trademark of PHMC and the text is copyright protected, an individual or group is required to obtain written permission from the Commission to use its trademark and copyrighted material." (See Historical Marker Image Request). The text is copyrighted.--GrapedApe (talk) 01:55, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • If you read the next sentence underneath the one you quoted on the PAHMC's website, you willsee that it says: "PHMC generally grants permission for use of marker images for illustrative or educational purposes."
  • You should definitely wait for User:Ruhrfisch to reply here. He has obtained permission at OTRS for the whole lot of PMHC markers as I remember. I looked for the OTRS number on some of my old photos, but couldn't find it, so please wait for Ruhrfisch. A related question is when to use these photos - I'd say for 95% of the sites, a photo of anything else is better; but for 1% of the sites, a photo of the marker is the only thing that connects the site with the historical event. Smallbones (talk) 15:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Either the OTRS permission will release the file in a free license, in which case not only are we in the clear but the restrictions imposed by the copyright owner in excess of the free license will become pretty much moot for everyone, or the OTRS permission will not be a free license and the images will have to be deleted from the Commons (and, if eligible, transferred to en-wiki as non-free images). For the reason outlined in italics, I doubt the copyright owner would release the images under a compatible license without checking with their lawyers. Davidwr (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I concur - any marker that is or which might not be "like the rest" copyright-wise needs to be discussed separately. With this in mind I think we should separate the list into three classes: Known or strongly presumed to be under copyright, those known to be not under copyright (probably none), and those with unknown copyright status. Anything first published after 1989 and created after 1977 and not the work of the US Government is almost certainly under copyright. Davidwr (talk) 15:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to be slow in replying here. I have not contacted the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission (PHMC) about these markers or photos of them. I did contact the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation (PennDOT) about photos of historic bridges several years ago, and those were released under a free license (see Category:Photographs by Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. I took two of the photos above and apologize that I did not realize they were not free. Ruhrfisch (talk) 03:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PS The list above is already sorted and does not include PHMC markers published under the old copyright law without a copyright notice, so that their photos are free. Is it worth contacting PHMC and asking them if they would release the photos under a free license? Ruhrfisch (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is worth asking, but they may not only say "no" but they may become aggressive in enforcing their rights. Davidwr (talk) 15:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If they do, then we should welcome it. I've been making a good faith effort to clean the copyright issues in up this mess of a category (Category:Pennsylvania state historical markers), based on the various copyright tags that are used here on commons: {{PD-US-no notice}}, {{PD-US-1978-89}}, {{De minimis}}, {{Trademarked}} and simple searches of http://www.copyright.gov/records/ . If, for some reason those are off/incorrect, then, I would be OK with all of them being deleted. In fact, I would be OK with the contents of the whole category Category:Pennsylvania state historical markers being deleted out of an abundance of caution.--GrapedApe (talk) 15:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]


  •  Comment Note that markers set up between 1 January 1978 and 28 February 1989 do not need a copyright notice either. A copyright notice was only needed on published copies of the markers, but starting on 1 January 1978, the definition of "publication" was changed with the effect that setting up a marker no longer counted as publication of the marker (see Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US). The text on some of the markers might have been published elsewhere, but this would need a proper source. --Stefan4 (talk) 20:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete Delete all except for deminimus images, out of an abundance of caution.--GrapedApe (talk) 21:21, 26 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete:
    • All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1989 to present", except possibly File:WestinghouseHighSchoolFront.jpg which might be de minimis. Undelete 120 years after installation as anonymous unpublished works.
    • All images in the section "Unknown/Not clear", unless a date can be identified.
    • All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1978 to 1989". Installation didn't count as publication (see Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US), so unless the texts have been published elsewhere, they should be treated as unpublished. A copyright notice is only needed on published copies. Undelete 120 years after installation as anonymous unpublished works.
    • All images in the section "Marker dedicated 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice" originally set up 1964-1977 but with a year later than 1977: the signs have been replaced by more recent signs. These signs are only in the public domain if the original signs lacked a copyright notice. Unfortunately, we don't know what the original signs looked like, so we can't verify this. Undelete 95 years after initial installation as published works.
  •  Keep:
  • Hold off, because if I remember rightly, User:Ruhrfisch got a CC-compatible release from the PAHMC for all historical marker texts. I'll request his input. The remainder of my comment should only be considered if it turns out that no such release exists. Keep everything that's de minimis because it's de minimis; I believe that they were included here solely for the sake of comprehensiveness, as I don't get the impression that GrapedApe really is advocating for their deletion. Delete everything else that shows a copyright notice, because they're all still under copyright, although I admit I can't remember ever seeing a historical marker with a copyright notice. For all non-de minimis images lacking a copyright notice, Keep everything erected before 1978. The text of these signs is in the public domain, and deleting the images on copyright grounds would be downright harmful. Keep anything erected after 1977 if it can be shown to consist completely of text erected before that year without a copyright notice: such signs consist simply of republication of PD material. Delete everything else because all such signs either can be confirmed to be under copyright, or we can't be sure, so we need to be safe and delete them. Nyttend (talk) 04:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hold off and/or mixed keep/delete per Nyttend above (04:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)). Davidwr (talk) 05:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment FYI only: http://www.hmdb.org has historical markers from all over and it it doesn't seem to care as much about copyright as the Commons (they DO advertise that they honor DMCA takedown requests). Davidwr (talk) 05:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Nyttend and Stefan4, except that two of the images in the "questionable de minimis" category, "Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 2.jpg" and "ForestGlenCondosSign.jpg" should be kept as de minimis (although I could be convinced about the latter, the former seems clear-cut to me). The other questionables are not de minim;s because the marker is in the foreground, and the shot could easily have been taken without it. I may upload some versions of these with the marker cropped out. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:19, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have cropped out the historical marker from all the images in the "questionable" category, except "File:Wyoming-Minisink Path historic marker 2.jpg", because that is clearly de minimis. If the judgment here is that those images I cropped are de minimis with the markers in them, then my crop can easily be reverted. As of this moment, however, they are not longer subjects for this deletion nomination. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted some, kept most .     Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 11:50, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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