Commons:Deletion requests/File:Fog Bowl 1988.jpg

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Revision as of 23:21, 12 August 2024 by Hurricane Clyde (talk | contribs) (Closing discussion on the grounds that another user (Yann) has already deleted the file. Despite me being an involved party; an uninvolved admin speedily deleted it, so there’s no need to continue the discussion on an already deleted image.)
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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Fog_Bowl_1988.jpg

"Image courtesy of NFL.com" Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: See the licensing template, which specifically addresses "courtesy of" images hosted on National Weather Service servers, stating in part:
“ "However, the NWS sites also host non-NWS images which have been submitted by individuals: these are generally shown as "Courtesy of ...". Such images have explicitly been released to the public domain by the copyright owner as part of the upload process...The information on government servers are in the public domain, unless specifically annotated otherwise..." ”
Thus, this image became public domain once it was hosted on National Weather Service servers without a specific copyright notice. An example of images hosted on National Weather Service servers that have their copyright held can be found here, with the annotation shown. The page hosting this image has no specific copyright annotation, only the "courtesy of" tag referred to in the licensing template. Ks0stm (T•C•G) 04:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep per Ks0stm. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 17:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kept.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 21:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Fog Bowl 1988.jpg

The last deletion request of this file in December 2010 was withdrawn on the basis of the wording of the {{PD-NWS}} template, which we now know to be flawed. (See this recent DR for details.)

But this image in particular is credited by the NWS to NFL.com. The original image can be found here (you might need to click/swipe through to image 20/20 to find it.)

Unsurprisingly, the NFL's copyright policy is long, detailed, and restrictive. The version in force at the time this file was uploaded to Commons is archived here and says (among very many other things):

"We own or license all copyright rights in the text, images, photographs, video, audio, graphics, user interface, and other content provided on the Services, and the selection, coordination, and arrangement of such content (whether by us or by you), to the full extent provided under the copyright laws of the United States and other countries. Except as expressly provided in this Agreement, you are prohibited from copying, reproducing, modifying, distributing, displaying, performing or transmitting any of the contents of the Services for any purposes, and nothing otherwise stated or implied in the Services confers on you any license or right to do so." (emphasis mine)

Without any evidence of permission where the NFL transferred their copyright of this photo into the public domain, we can't keep this file. Rlandmann (talk) 13:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Keep: (1) This is not an NFL photo. Per NFL.com, this is a photograph by the Associated Press. So the NFL.com copyright rules do not apply, meaning the entire deletion reasoning does not even apply to this image. (2) According to the archived disclaimer at the bottom of the webpage where this image originates, NWS states, “ The information on government servers are in the public domain, unless specifically annotated otherwise.” For the “unless specifically annotated otherwise” part: if/when copyrighted work is provided to the NWS, they appropriately make it known that it is copyrighted (example, see the “Tornado Photos” tab of this NWS webpage). In short, this is a public domain photograph and the previous deletion request regarding {{PD-NWS}} should be upheld. WeatherWriter (talk) 14:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No, look again. If you scroll through the 20 images in the gallery on the NFL website, you'll see that the various images in there are credited to a variety of different sources, including the AP, the NFL, and various individually named photographers. This image is number 20/20 in the carousel, and is specifically credited "NFL". FWIW, during my research, I also checked the AP archive, but it isn't in there. (Not that we can assume that ever AP photo ever is in there, but for this image, it means that there's nothing there that contradicts the NFL identifying itself as the owner of the photo).
    In any case, we now have evidence that "specific annotation" on weather.gov can indeed take the form of a simple "Courtesy of" caption.
    I'd say that at this point, the onus is on anyone who wants to keep this image to reach out to the NFL and ask them if they ever released this into the public domain. --Rlandmann (talk) 20:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is not evidence to me. That is just you trying to disregard precedent in my opinion. Either way, others may or may not agree with me and that is fine. I know it is in the public domain, so that is what matters. Whether the Commons keeps a public domain, free to use photograph or get rid of it is not my problem. I presented my case and explained how it is public domain. Up to the closing administrator in the end to decide, not either of us. WeatherWriter (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
     Speedy delete; even though it isn’t an NFL photo; it is still an image from a source with a known copyright policy. The Associated Press is still very strict. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Regardless of whether it came from the NFL or the AP; it’s still copyrighted. The only difference would be who the copyright owner is. My speedy delete vote still stands. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This at least comes close multiple criteria for speedy deletion. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I see three different things that warrant speedy deletion with this: F1 (clear copyright violation); F2 (fair use content); and F6 (license laundering) WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If I knew how; I’d probably tag it for speedy deletion myself. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure; but do you concur that this image originally belonged to the NFL, not the AP? --Rlandmann (talk) 21:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Regardless of which one; it is still a clear copyright violation. F1 for sure. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:47, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Personally; the NWS credited it to the NFL, so I concur that it’s probably the NFL that is the copyright owner; even if the AP took it. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 21:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Just added a speedy delete tag too. Based on the high likelihood of F1 criteria being met. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 17:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Furthermore, the website it was found on leads to a 404 error. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 17:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Do you have any evidence that the Associated Press, a for profit news/photojournalism company, tends to release their photos for hire into the public domain? If you can’t find evidence that they routinely do that, why should we believe that this one was? We don’t get to trust (random commons user) or even an organization like the NWS - unless there is proof the AP (or NFL, if they bought the copyright to it from AP) released it into the public domain, it is not such just because you want it to be and someone who didn’t own the copyright published it online claiming it was.
    Otherwise, under your ideas, I would be able to take any photo I find anywhere (online or offline) and post it on a website saying “the photos on this website are public domain unless specified otherwise”, and magically make those public domain even if I didn’t own the copyright? Berchanhimez (talk) 20:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No I don’t. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 23:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - enough of a question over its copyright status. Whether it was credited to the AP or the NFL doesn't matter - neither organization routinely releases images they take into the public domain. So absent proof of this image's public domain status, it should be deleted per the precautionary principle. Berchanhimez (talk) 23:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WeatherWriter Sir MemeGod ._. (talk - contribs) 17:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
User:Yann deleted it per F1 speedy deletion criterion. This discussion probably needs to be closed since the image is already deleted. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 23:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speedily deleted by user:Yann for meeting F1 and F6 speedy deletion criteria. Non admin closure. WestVirginiaWX (talk) 23:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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