Talk:Bombing of Dresden

Numbers of people killed

The number of persons killed in the bombing of Dresden in World War II is a frequent topic on this talk page. If you wish to raise this subject again, before doing so please:
(A) Familiarise yourself with previous discussions in the talk page archive;
(B) Take into consideration the findings of the Historical Commission on the Air Raids on Dresden between February 13 and 15, 1945 (Historikerkommission zu den Luftangriffen auf Dresden zwischen dem 13. und 15. Februar 1945) which was set up by the Lord Mayor of Dresden in January 2007 and reported on 17 March 2010. You can find the full report of the commission at [1] (use Google translate if you don't speak German), in which you will find:
"Zusammenfassung der Ergebnisse Im Ergebnis der von der Kommission vorgenommenen Untersuchungen wird festgestellt: Bei den Luftangriffen auf Dresden vom 13. bis 15. Februar 1945 wurden bis zu 25.000 Menschen getötet."
This translates (electronically) as "summary of results As a result of the investigations carried out by the Commission, it is found: During the air strikes on Dresden from February 13th to 15th, 1945 up to 25,000 people were killed."
(C) Take into account work written by historians after the date that the commission published its findings. (For instance, Overy, Richard (26 September 2013). The Bombing War: Europe, 1939–1945. Penguin UK. ISBN 978-0-14-192782-4.);
(D) Remember that, as per WP:NOTFORUM, the talk page is to discuss content of the article and is not for general discussion of the subject.
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:26, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment that does not comply with this request (particularly talk page archive content)

The 'up to' is of course nonsense. It was merely a very, very conservative estimate. There was also pressure on the historians commission to minimize the number of people killed. The hole affair was intellectually dishonest from the beginning. In other words: This isn't a reliable source for knowledge on the number of people killed in Dresden. The former GDR-government gave far higher figures than that when ask. Apparently based on demographic statistics of the town. I think they counted 200.000 missing, but the city was also full of refugees, whose dead wouldn't be counted as residents. 105.12.2.94 (talk) 06:43, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Number of dead

The 25-30k figure is the lowest estimate by the soviets, and it is completely unknown what it is based on. More than 30000 bodies had been recovered, even though a lot could have been obliterated and many buried. The source here settles on about 60k. It is from the USAFE, who as the legal descendent of the USTAF, are interested in keeping the numbers low. And even they accept a 60k figure. Which also lines up better with the higher area said to have been burning. This should be corrected. https://media.defense.gov/2013/May/23/2001329959/-1/-1/0/Dresden%20again.pdf 2001:4C4C:1EE6:5000:11AD:AA4F:3684:30B1 (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

No, 25,000 is the approximate number established by the Historical Commission in 2010. In March 1945 the Dresden police gave an estimate of 20,204 bodies recovered. Goebbels' propaganda ministry released this to the neutral press with a zero crudely added to give 202,040. The Dresden police gave an estimate of an eventual 25,000 dead once recovery was complete (this turned out to be correct -- about 5,000 bodies were later recovered), and the propaganda ministry press release again added a zero to give 250,000. The police figure for corpses incinerated in the Altmarkt, on the notorious pyres, was 6,856, but the propaganda ministry inflated this to 68,560. (Frederick Taylor, Dresden 1945, p.424.) This is where all the disinformation stems from. It is not a good idea to rely on Josef Goebbels, or for that matter David Irving. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

United States and Israel showing as belligerents on the side of Germany?

As of May 20, 2023 the belligerents on the side of the Germans include the United States (with a swastika in place of the stars) and Israel (with a swastika in place of the Star of David), which seems incorrect. 04 soccer.relic (talk) 01:51, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

How article handles number of deaths

I get the feeling that the article has some "fossilised" bits of text that deal with the number of deaths. The most intensive study on this number was the historical commission that reported in 2010 (see pinned post, above). Yet we have Richard Evans' The Third Reich at War (published in 2008) providing a number (35,000) in the lead. I don't think that we are doing Evans any favours by quoting a number that predates the 2010 report. (Does anyone have access to any of his later books? If so, does his current thinking persist with the number cited in the first para of the lead?)

The footnote on the subject in the first paragraph lists the figures from a number of historians: but the higher numbers come from works written before the Historical Commission published (Burleigh's Moral Combat was published just a couple of months after the Commission's report – not enough time to make changes to a book that was in press.) Add to this the view of Overy (The Bombing War), and we seem to have the Historical Commission's report accepted by historians as the best estimate.

Even the final paragraph of the lead disagrees with the higher and lower numbers given in the first paragraph of the lead. The best interpretation that a reader can put on this is that the article is a little confused on the point.

At a minimum, the somewhat confused lead needs fixing.

Going further, I suggest that the article should use the Historical Commission findings as its best estimate. This is validated by both Beevor and Overy using those numbers. Do we have any historians using a different number after 2010?

There is already some discussion in the article of why there are varying numbers – this should certainly be mentioned in the lead. That discussion may need to be reviewed, but it should sit well alongside the article using a single best estimate figure. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 30 November 2023

Bombing of Dresden in World War II → Bombing of Dresden – Unnecessary disambiguation; proposed move target already redirects here. As TheForgottenKing earlier noted, comparable articles like Bombing of Tokyo and Attack on Pearl Harbor lack the qualifier. rblv (talk) 03:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I still think this is the correct move. If there had been another major bombing of Dresden it might be necessary, but from what I can tell no such event exists. For anyone joining the conversation just now, my previous comment 9 months ago was as follows:

I think this article should just be titled Bombing of Dresden". Normally, battles and such are not titled <event> in <war>, but just <event>, especially if there's only one event. Other examples: Bombing of Tokyo, Attack on Pearl Harbor, Battle of Iwo Jima, etc. None of these are titled "<event> in World War II". Just a thought.

TheForgottenKing (talk) 04:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I concur on this - Dresden hasn't been bombed before or since this event, so the "in World War II" disambiguation is not needed. Harryhenry1 (talk) 07:22, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Agree with the above comments. 296cherry (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support. In the end 2010 RM it was stated that there were some other bombings in the 18th century. This is clearly the primary topic though, and an overdue move.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think it works that way for descriptive titles. Srnec (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• The phrase "bombardment of Dresden" is ambiguous. See siege of Dresden (1760) and possibly others. Insofar as "bombing of [city]" tends today to denote aerial bombardment, the proposal is not unreasonable. But it should be clear that this is not precedent for stripping "in World War II" from article titles just because we have no other one at the bare title. Srnec (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:42, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. As there are no other major bombings of Dresden, the "World War II" in the title is unnecessary. DSOFOreverTYU ~ talk ~ Eurovision 16:32, 5 December 2023 (UTC)