Talk:Greek genocide

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Request for Comment: Article name

This dispute is mainly regarding the use of the term genocide in the article's title, versus proposed variations with terms such as massacres, deportations, and ethnic cleansing. There was a recent mediation, a dispute resolution, and a straw poll, all coupled by a huge debate. The article is presently protected due to edit-warring regarding the {{POV-title}} tag. 01:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute:

Statement by NikoSilver

• The poll ended with consensus in one of the numerous options, namely Pontic Greek genocide. The other options were either opposed, or marked with no consensus.
• The initial debate was that the "acts" defined in genocide were not sourced. At present the article has practically every sentence cited by independent, verifiable, reliable sources.
• The debate later evolved as to if it is original research to assume that the facts to their extent provide adequate reason to name the article as such. A response was provided here. Academic sources explicitly or inexplicitly stating it was a genocide were also provided. Namely:

Academic quotes

Note: Only third party sources are included here. For all sources, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Academic views on the issue. For eyewitness quotes, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Eyewitness accounts and quotes. For recognition, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Recognition.

• Turkey, still struggling to achieve its ninety-five-year-old dream of becoming the beacon of democracy in the Near East, does everything possible to deny its genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian Greeks.
• democide against the Greeks...genocide...347,000 dead
• systematic extermination...annihilation...in a persistent campaign of massacre
  Note: Term "genocide" had not been coined yet.
• compared experience to the Holocaust
• series of massacres, pertinent to the Armenian Genocide
• ethnic cleansing

---

• For a comparative analysis of the academic sources, kindly refer to this section.
• Various NGOs recognize the events as a genocide.
• Apart from the (obvious) recognition by Greece and Cyprus, the events have been recognized by the states of South Carolina, New Jersey, Florida, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Illinois. New York State issued a proclamation designating May 19, 2002 as Pontian Greek Genocide Remembrance Day.
• Apart from Turkey, no other country has explicitly expressed they dispute the genocide thesis.
• Google searches:
  • Pontian genocide -wikipedia: 17,700 hits
  • Pontian massacres -wikipedia: 11,600 hits
  • Pontian ethnic cleansing -wikipedia: 1,190 hits
  • Pontian deportations -wikipedia: 720 hits
    • Note: These google results are included only to illustrate the relative preminence of the used terms (i.e. which is more popular). There are, of course, other searches that produce millions of results, such as:
  • Greek genocide -wikipedia: 1,120,000 hits
  • Hellenic genocide -wikipedia: 135,000 hits
• For a previous analytical reasoning regarding the tag removal, kindly refer to Archive 2#Why the tags should not stay.

Please read the article and decide for yourselves. For the reasons stated above, this summary supports that the title should include the term genocide.

NikoSilver 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Statement by A.Garnet

My position has been since the beginning that this article does not reflect academic opinion. It is recognised by Greece, written by Greek editors and supported by Greek editors. None of the sources are credible, none of the scholars notable, not one monograph can be found to its name, not one journal article, not one encylopedic article - in short it is the culmination of a few scraps of sentences in which a non-notable author has used the term Pontian greek "genocide" and original research whereby a number of quotes are being used to prove the genocide thesis.

You only have to look at the "Background" section, the section supposedly dealing with this genocide, to realise how poor the academic material in support of this article is. It is so poor that they rely on sources from a different location (Asia minor as opposed to Pontus) and from different people (Aegean Greeks and Turkish Jews as opposed to Pontian Greeks). So nowhere in this article do we have one ounce of explanation as to how these Pontian Greeks were supposodly exposed to genocide by Turks, simply becauase our Greek editors cannot find any research material on this beyond a few sentences which use the term Pontian Greek genocide.

Lets look at some of the arguments used to justify the title. Firstly, there was no consensus on the title whatsoever. Do not try and justify the collective votes of a number of Greek editors to mean a consensus, it is anything but. Consensus is achieved in reaching an agreement with disputing parties, not reaching an agreement with people who already agree! The fact is not only do all of the Turkish editors disagree, but a number of admins and third party editors have also raised questions and opposed the current title.

Another arugment used: "Apart from Turkey, no other country has explicitly expressed they dispute the genocide thesis." This is really quite a childish argument. It assumes non-recognition outside of Greece and Cyprus (i really do want to see a proper source that Cyprus recognises it) to somehow mean silent worldwide recognition. Well surely if recongition was so forthcoming you would be able to present me with one monograph from one notable historian. They ask for sources opposing a genocide of Pontians before they provide any credible or substantial sources which support it! This whole attitude is sheer nonsense and one employed to defend and indefensible position.

Also, as for the supposed recognition of American states, as another Greek editor proved, these resolutions are of little academic or political weight. Anybody can file a resolution, in fact one of "genocide" resolutions is mentioned next to happy birthday wishes for an old granny! They are, as Mackracis put, an embarassment to this article. Furthermore, on the topic of NGO's, the most notable of all NGO's dealing with genocide, the Association of Genocide Scholars, does not recognise this event as genocide, nor do any of the scholars associated with.

Let us also put those Google searches into perspective:

• Holocaust -wikipedia 29,700,000
• Rwandan genocide -wikipedia 1,340,000
• Bosnian genocide -wikipedia 1,300,000
• Armenian genocide -wikipedia 1,190,000
• Pontian genocide -wikipedia 17,700!

Now have a look at those 17,000 results, all it shows is that there a lot of Greeks on the internet like the editors here who are using the term Pontian greek "genocide". None of these superficial arguments count for anything Nikos, nothin detracts from the minority nature of this thesis and the complete lack of notable scholarly research, no matter how many straw polls you initiate or how many Greek editor revert the article.

Put simply, this article is a minority view. If the editors insist on defending it, then they will have to accept that the pov-title tag is here to stay until it is renamed and rewritten. Just to add i wont be here from Friday onwards, but i think i've made my argument pretty clear here.

Some sources:

• Mazower (these deportations were on a relatively small scale and do not appear to have been designed to end in their victims' deaths.)
• Midlarsky (Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option) Book review:
• Valentino ("the Turks did not seek to exterminate the Greeks, as the previous regime had done to the Armenians") [p. 296 -- Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide in the Twentieth Century]
• Levene "Unlike the Armenian case, in each of these other instances the scope, scale and intensity of the killings was limited, though this does not rule out comparison." — "... I have concentrated here on the [genocidal sequence affecting Armenians and Kurds only], though my approach would be pertinent to the Pontic Greek and Assyrian cases." — "Historians ... tend to avoid the term genocide to describe them." --A.Garnet 02:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Users who support or oppose the inclusion of the word "genocide" in the title, should sign below with a brief comment in the respective section. Comments longer than one line belong to the #Comments section below. Only registered users with more than 50 edits prior to Dec 10, 2006 00:00 UTC are eligible to vote. Comments are welcome by anyone in the #Comments section. Template:MultiCol

The following discussion is an archived debate of the straw poll. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. Please see below for explanation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Support

1. NikoSilver 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Mitsos 12:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
3. The attempt to trivialise or downplay the Pontians' suffering can only be described as sickening. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Dirak 15:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC) (until I see similar changes at Assyrian Genocide and elsewhere where there is less recognition than here (TRNC springs to mind), I will not support anything else)
5. Politis It is part of a country's official calendar: official commemorations - even if contravertial - have a (carefully worded) place in an encyclopedia.
6. --Kalogeropoulos 15:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
7. The mere idea of even debating this dark chapter in the history of civilized mankind is sickening.--Eupator 16:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
8. Rizos01 18:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC) There are more than enough Eyewitness Accounts and Quotes by third parties.
9. It is a pitty that every fact that sheds somebody in a dark light has to be debated and voted. This is an encyclopaedia, not a beauty contest. --Diomidis Spinellis 20:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
10. Hectorian 23:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
11. --Asteraki 02:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
12. Turks are allowed to change history in their own country, but you can't force that change to the whole world. Chaldean 15:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
13. L.Stis S. P. Those in doubt read the talk archivesAristovoul0s 16:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
14. The murder of 350,000 Pontians deserves to be counted as a genocide and as stated above their are enough sources. Kyriakos 22:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
15. Definitely support. --Odysses (☜) 12:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
16. The term "genocide" should certainly be kept; the only change that should be made is that, instead of naming the entry "Pontian Greek Genocide", it should be changed to "Hellenic Genocide" (or "Greek Genocide") or "Genocide of Asia Minor Greeks" to better reflect the victims of the systematic extermination campaign. Critias 16:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
17. Time to vote. --   Avg    18:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

    Pontic Greek Genocide is a historical reality. SpaceBalls 08:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

    User not eligible to vote according to poll rules above (too few contribs, user creation later than Dec.10). On the other hand, you comment about more sources (here) is really appreciated. Please cite those sources properly below in this talk with all details. Thank you. NikoSilver 14:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

18. All the hard work in providing sources has been caricatured as "none of the non-partisan sources are credible, therefore only Greece supports the Pontic genocide". Is it possible that this dispute has a remote relevance to Turkey's (and sadly Turkish editors') denial of the Assyrian and Armenian genocides? Isn't the denial of the latter forbidden by law in some European countries[1][2]? Point made. Miskin 17:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
19. makedonas 11:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per A. Garnet. I will also include a statement later on.. Baristarim 12:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
2. With all due respect to both sides of the dispute, I don’t think that it is a prevailing scholarly view to regard these events as genocide. Grandmaster 12:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
3. I fully agree with Grandmaster above. Hornplease 15:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
4. There is no general acception of the term Pontic Greek Genocide. Title should be renamed to something else and Pontic Greek Genocide should redirect to this page. Renaming historic events won't do any good.--Doktor Gonzo 07:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
5. I'd like to reverse the 12th voter for supporting it, because this word is only used by Greeks, as the second comment from the top of this page implies. I agree that this title must go. -- WiiVolve 10:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Result

I am closing this poll (being a part of the wider article RfC procedure) as no consensus. Despite the numerical predominance of the "support" side, there are two principal reasons why I believe this to be correct:

1. The persistance of a very marked split of opinions along national lines. With few exceptions, the poll consisted of Greek editors supporting and Turkish edotors opposing.
2. The occurrence of a truly insane amount of ongoing debate further down this page, after the poll had taken its predictable course. (And I'll freely admit I didn't read all of it.) The sheer extent of the debate shows that whatever the outcome of the poll was, "consensus" it was not - it would be stretching the term "consensus" into something very remote from its plain language meaning indeed if we applied it here simply because of the apparent numerical supermajority.

So, what do we have? A supermajority of support votes which reflects the numerical predominance of the Greek over the Turkish Wikipedian population much more than a corresponding majority of opinion anywhere else, for all I can see. This poll was called in the context of what was originally designed as an article RfC, and from the beginning there were strong objections against the method of the polling as such too. I also note a persisting climate of distrust and aggravation on this page, with debates sidelined into unfriendliness far too often. I would personally have loved to see a stronger result tending towards a true consensus building emerge from this RfC, but if the hope of its initiators was to reach some kind of result that could serve as a quasi-binding decision for the time being, I must now say: Sorry folks, this is not it. The issue remains open, unfortunately. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comments

Pending another post of a longer view I would like to propose that this article to be renamed to Pontic Greek exodus that will cover the fate of Pontic Greeks since the article has included, over the editwars, many references to the Pontic Greeks who went to Kazakhstan etc. Genocide thesis should be talked about in the article. The genocide thesis is recognized by only Cyprus and Greece, and this should raise a few red flags. The case here is similar to Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide, with the latter redirecting to the former that includes a section on the genocide controversy. Also remember that this article was deleted two months ago from German Wiki for being a hate page. I am not proposing deletion, since I respect content as a general rule. Therefore I propose that this article be renamed, and the genocide thesis mentioned in a seperate section with a mention of Cyprus and Greece recognizing a "Pontic Greek Genocide". Baristarim 12:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And its recognition by six US states doesn't mean much either. Mississipi had a law until the 70s that said that it was OK to kill a Mormon. So, I don't understand why they are even mentioned. Baristarim 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Also remember that this article was deleted from German Wiki for being a hate page" These Germans and their hate laws... "Mississipi had a law until the 70s that said that it was OK to kill a Mormon." So what??? Mitsos 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the point of another straw poll? I mean who are you trying to kid, we are here to build consensus, not demonstrate the voting power of Greek editors (demonstrated nicely by the afd on Kurdish genocide). --A.Garnet 13:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Look Garnet, by persistently adding {{POV-title}}, you have repeatedly violated consensus as it was already demonstrated three times already:

• In Mediation
• In dispute resolution, and
• In last straw poll

I refuse to accept your tag in this legitimate article that has been scrutinized by dozens of editors for the tinyest detail. You have a point though: Indeed, just "another straw poll" is probably not enough to combat your persistence...NikoSilver 14:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand you Nikos, why do you lie and distort like this? You know damn well there was not an ounce of consensus for this title outside of the Greek editors who backed it. I do not recall one Turkish editor supporting this title, in fact i do not recall one third party editor bar Awiseman who explicity supported it. Where is this consensus you keep going on about? The only consensus i saw was your idea to place the pov-title tag until we agreed on the current name or a rename, none of which has happened. --A.Garnet 14:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

See: here, here, here and here (which Baris added) for replies. Also, I don't get it: Do you suggest that any view expressed in WP must have been consented by the Turkish side? I'm sorry, I don't follow... NikoSilver 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So you accept the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide, then? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I accept its academic notablity and scholarly support gives it a legitimate place on Wikipedia. Unlike this. --A.Garnet 14:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Another false distinction. Genocide was committed against the Christian population of the region as a whole; the Armenians bore the brunt. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe then you could tell me why an eminent historian such as Mazower or Midlarsky deny any genocide of Greeks but support the Armenians? Are they Pontian genocide deniers? --A.Garnet 14:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Kekrops, avoid the straw man. Asking such questions are irrelevant. Mitsos, who has voted for support is a white supremacist, as admitted in his user page. Why don't you ask him if he thinks that blacks are inferior to whites for example? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So don't even try to attack others positions by making them look like some genocide-denying Nazi. You should be asking to Mitsos what he thinks of Jews, since you seems to adore asking other peoples' opinions on things that don't concern this article. Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What question? There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the events constituted genocide. I think you're the one who needs to avoid the strawman; you've just associated the opposing side of the debate with white supremacism. Speaking of user pages, your description of Chinese territory as "still Turkish" reads like an homage to pan-Turkism/Turanism, an equally dangerous ideology as far as I'm concerned. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Your question to A. Garnet. Eastern China is not the territory of Turkey my friend. However, it is also regularly called East Turkistan, and that's what I meant. Cut down on the paranoia. If you want to know why I can easily talk about East Turkistan, take a closer look at some of the articles listed in my user page. If you are going to be asking questions like that to A. Garnet, why don't you ask Mitsos what he thinks of the Jews for example? Again do not confuse your POV with that of the whole world. And Kekrops, exactly what I have been trying to explain all along: This article is the product of the POV of its creators. Baristarim 15:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And yes, if you are not going to ask any questions about their ideologies to who vote for support, do not do it for others. If you are going to ask irrelevant questions, of course I will wonder why a white-nationalist is advocating support, and raise it here since the rule of not questioning the ideologies of editors was broken by your questions. I am an atheist + far-left, and you should know that people like that do not generally become pan-Turkists. Baristarim 15:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not contradicting you but I am almost certain that they do not "deny" a genocide took place. Do you have a quote? Politis 14:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Bottom of my statement my friend. --A.Garnet 14:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that; do you have the Mazower reference (book, article)? Politis 14:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Have an article: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n03/mazo01_.html --A.Garnet 14:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Did someone suggest 'Exodus'??? Is this a Bob Marley song :-?. But seriously, we can just about apply the term 'exodus' to the population exchanges between Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, etc. But in Pontus there was used to be an ancient and thriving Greek community; after 1915 and the 1920s it came to an end with many tens of thousands killed. Buildings, churches, archives, art works were burnt. For Greeks, this was nothing less than a genocide (not a tragic population exchange or the direct outcome of war). The perpetrators were mostly Ottoman troops and Kurdish irregulars. So at the very least we have a series of Massacres and pogroms. Politis 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? See the Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide.. Hmm.. That's interesting, they redirect to the same article under the first article. I can find sources that say that there was a genocide of Native Americans by the truckload. However, the article is still not named "genocide", since there is no academic and scholarly concensus. The case at hand is even worse: Not only that there aren't enough sources (a few books, couple of interpretations of second-hand eye witness accounts, and recognition by Greece and Cyprus (gees, GR and CYR, how can that happen? :))), but there is not at all an academic concensus. Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, here is a secret how block editing can be generated: every User name has a 'User contributions' link; by clicking onto it, you can follow what a User with similar interests is editing; if you see something relevant, you add your own comment... Politis 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I know. I generately can find things of interest by myself however.. That might be true for someone who is new to Wikipedia, but it is nothing but desperation for an experienced editor.Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide. They redirect to the same article under the first article, since there is no academic concensus. Plus, this article was deleted in the German Wiki for being a hate page. Nikos, concensus in a small straw poll dominated, unfortunately by Greek editors is not sufficient. It might interest you to know that many non-Greek and non-Turk editors, admins included, also oppose the title, however they are afraid to come in because of the block-lobby of some people (guess who? any AfDs anyone?) Nobody is saying this content to be deleted, however you also have to understand that you cannot impose a minority POV to the rest of Wikipedia. Baristarim 14:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

For Midlarsky, I prefer this review [3] (thanks Garnet). Nice quotes by his reviewer (Robert M. Spector-Worcester State College):

"deals with mass murders in the twentieth century that could have but did not evolve into the author's definition of genocide".

"In part three, having narrowed the meaning of genocide and identified the perpetrator's conditions for genocide, Midlarsky applies his analysis to Turkey..."

"It is regrettable that Midlarsky does not deal more with prevention of genocide, which is the ultimate purpose of studying the subject."

:-) NikoSilver 15:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Again why lie and distort? The full quote: "Part five of the book deals with mass murders in the twentieth century that could have but did not evolve into the author's definition of genocide: Jews in Bulgaria and Finland during World War II, Greeks in Turkey, and the Irish in the British Empire." I dont see what is here that you would prefer, how explicit do you want it. --A.Garnet 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Read the whole of it Garnet. I bolded parts above. Avoid WP:ATTACKs. Take this as a warning. I've had enough of this! NikoSilver 15:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You should probably report him, Niko. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Start arguing your case properly instead of your little gimmicky google counts, straw polls and what not. I dont have time to go round in circles like this. In fact juding by yours and others support for Kurdish genocide what i have said over the past 6 or 7 months has had absoloutely no effect on any of you. So now i'll hopefully wait for third party editors and see what happens. Good day. --A.Garnet 15:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok that does it. NikoSilver 15:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes Niko, that does it. It is clear as the sky what happened at the AfD of the Kurdish Genocide. Some editors came back from their inactivity of months to vote "delete per X". Baristarim 15:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is clear Baris? Need I point out maybe how many Turks came out of nowhere in that AfD also? Even ...after it closed? In any case, your reaction and constant repetition of all this is just smoke in the eyes to evade the issue here and produce random accusations. Nobody notified or was notified to this AfD to my knowledge. Do you know something we don't? Where's the cabal? NikoSilver 15:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[4]. This one for example. Kinda funny that Dirak said in his support vote "I am not going to change my opinion unless there are changes to the Assyrian Genocide article". Hmm kinda funny isn't it Nikos? Dirak created the article "Kurdish Genocide" four days ago, and it was deleted pretty much in a day. Coincidence? I don't think so.Baristarim 16:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the particular editor around a lot, especially in controversial issues. I also see he doesn't have the e-mail feature. Weird... NikoSilver 16:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim. OK, so what you might be saying is that only for the 'Greek people', these events are perceived as a genocide - indeed, that is why the Greek state has a special day comemorating it. But international opinion does not recognise a genocide. My problem is that although I can see the case for calling it 'massacre' rather than 'genocide', a State (Greece) has officially recognised it as such, and this official status - even though limited - gives it the official (though contravertial) right to be included in wikipedia.

For instance, if Turkey had decreed a special day for 'Turkish Cypriot Genocide', I would argue that, yes, we would have to include it in wikipedia. And not because there was a genocide, but because the concept would have formed an official element in Turkey's official calendar.

So, in this current article, we could indicate from the very beginning that this is a Greek perception and part of the official Greek calendar. Then, that there is no international response and we can give a non-contravertial background to the story. For any further details, we could have a link to 'Pontian or Pontic massacre'. Politis 15:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a common problem. The answers you seek are in Wikipedia:Content forking. The Greek perception is certainly notable enough to warrant significant mention in a "Pontian Greek massacre" article, and to warrant having redirects from titles such as these. We cannot, however, have articles that discuss only one side of the equation. The most common example is Creationism. The article does not say "OK, this is what they believe: 1) God made earth in 7 days etc...". One article should cover all opinions. yandman 15:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect yandman, check the sources, quotes, recognition, NGOs etc above (both sides). On the other hand I agree with your reasoning that minority POVs must not be reflected on titles. Check for example TRNC... NikoSilver 15:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

TRNC is not a mathematical or academic thesis. The comparison is baseless, it is an entity that exists! The case here is similar to Native American article I mentioned right under the Comments subsection. Also take a look at that Nikos. The genocide thesis is mentioned in a section in the article. Baristarim 16:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Genocide is a specific term reflecting spesific actions and is used for every demographic changing caused by brutal force in large scale -by any nation. --Kalogeropoulos 16:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

TRNC has less recognition; the existence of a state in northern Cyprus is nothing more than a (-n extremely small) POV. All that's a reality in Cyprus is the military occupation. How Turkish nationalists manage to equate that with a state is beyond me... //Dirak 16:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You see why i lose my rag Yandman? How many bloody times - TRNC is not an academic thesis - it is a defacto self-declared entity! Its like hitting my head agaisnt a brick wall, the same worthless arguments again and again and again! --A.Garnet 16:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah... that is nothing more than your POV and you know it. //Dirak 16:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we lay off the TRNC or move the exchange to the relevant talk page? The article concern Pontic Greeks, not Turkish Cypriots and their state. Politis 16:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"If you are going to ask irrelevant questions, of course I will wonder why a white-nationalist is advocating support" I cannot understand what is your problem. Did anyone accused you for being a leftist? Btw, you don't come from France as you say in your userpage, you come from Turkey. A. Garnet is right about TRNC. Mitsos 17:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Well Mitsos, there was not a template similar to the US one, happy? The problem is not at all your beliefs, it was another asking Alf about his opinions/ideology on something else. If such questioning is permitted, then there is no reason why it should work only one way..

Again, comments that are irrelevant. TRNC? It doesn't matter if you believe that if it were genocide. Wikipedia is not your personal blog. If you want, you can create your own website or forum and write anything you want. What I want to know is since when the overhelming academic concensus of this being a genocide was formed. Since Greece and Cyprus accepted this as such?! Is that it? Or since this page was deleted from German Wiki because it was considered a hate page?

Nobody is proposing the content to be deleted. There are no users here coming from months old sleeps and voting "delete. per above". There is no reason why this should be deleted, and I, again, propose a solution similar to the Native Americans page; an article that has been edited by thousands of editors over the years, and extensively at that since Wikipedia is anglophone. Meaning that it has developed a good encyclopedic and formal approach that should be adopted in such cases. Baristarim 18:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

A majority of the article also breaks WP:OR. Most of the sources are simple eye-witness accounts of some American ambassador 90 years ago. There are practically no serious sources or books cited about the "genocide" issue. This article is trying to use the witness accounts, recognition from Greece and Cyprus (?!) to persuade the reader that this was genocide. That is a clear violation of WP:OR. One of the associations cited, "Intl Association of Genocide blah blah" is co-chaired by an ethnic Greek etc. Turkish POV? This has Greek POV written all over it.. Baristarim 18:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Well Mitsos, there was not a template similar to the US one, happy?" Fair enough. Mitsos 18:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Harry Psomiades, Constantine Fotiades? And some people are complaining about the Turkish POV.. Half the sources that advocate "genocide" are Greeks, and the rest are non-notable historians. There has to be a clear academic concensus on such an issue. The defense "the research has just gotten started" doesn't hold either. European journalists, authors, historians write tens of books a year about even the smallest Kurdish related issue, you are saying that a probable genocide of so many people slipped their mind? Two of the historians cited also compare this with the aboriginal experience, however I can find no such article and, as I said, the Native American genocide redirects to something else, which means that they are out of the academic concensus generally. Baristarim 18:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The article about aborigines says "Impact of European settlement" as section title. Well, if those two historians are considering the aboriginal experience to genocide, then I don't understand why they should not be considered on the fringes of academia.Baristarim 18:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As for the recognitions. WHAT recognitions? Is this a joke? Greece and Cyprus? And six US states who also pass grandma birthday wishes at the same time? As for someone said about Turkey recognizing a TR Cyp genocide and its implication that that would warrant an article: false. Just because some country passed a resolution accusing its neighbor with whom it had a "not-so-friendly" relations for centuries, that doesn't mean we can create an article. It is notable, but only merits a statement of the fact: "X passed a resolution considering that the Y did a genocide on the nationals of X". That's it. It cannot have an article of its own. This is exactly the same reason the word "terrorist" is a word to avoid, since people blame each other for being as such on the slightest of excuses.Baristarim 18:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Having fun up there? :) Keep on going.. Just a quick question: will there be anymore users coming back from inactivity to vote here? Or will there be other articles created per WP:POINT as User:Dirak is insisting on doing even after the closure of the AfD? Has anyone seriously looked at the Native American article that I mentioned? All the keepers seemed to say the same thing: "I believe and know that there was a genocide". Sorry folks, that don't cut it.Baristarim 20:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Having fun down here? Do you seriously think that one can follow your rhetoric? Do you really think that flooding will get you anywhere? NikoSilver 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nikos, have you even read my posts above? What rhetoric? Even you had said (way back when), that you were going to take a look at the article about the Native Americans. So what happened? My recent posts were definitely relevant, and I cannot see why some people don't understand that this is not a vote of some sorts. Dry votes are not going to cut it, if those who have voted are so interested, why don't they leave any comments here? Nobody seems to be engaging in a serious discussion about the fact that the Native American genocide is not titled as such, as well as the fact that this article has been deleted from German Wiki. I am sorry, but I stand behind what I said, most of the keepers say basically the same thing: "I believe and know that there was a genocide". Articles cannot be based on the beliefs of its creators. What kind of a discussion is this? There are no "aboriginal genocide" or "native american genocide" articles. The only that can be cited is the Assyrian Genocide. And another attempt was made to create another similar article to simply be able to point out to the existence of another similar article, but it didn't work. Even here, most keepers are not even contributing to the debate at all, just "keep - it is despicable how those barbaric Turks are such savages blah blah". All I am saying is that there should be an actual debate.Baristarim 22:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Baris, the quotes you included are fictional. My personal view (as can be seen here) is that people become better when they recognize their mistakes. I think you should be actually endorsing your fellow Turkish users to vote support. That way, you would indeed prove that "those Turks aren't such savages". There are many academic sources calling it a genocide, sources with the numbers of the dead, recognition by subnational entities, NGOs, eyewitness quotes etc etc. Really, how do you fail to see these? I remember your argument used to be that genocide is a legal term, and must be recognized by the UN (or something). Is this all that matters to you? Don't you feel the least of sorrow that these events happened in your parts? Don't you see that even R. J. Rummel that you mock, has tables full of citations by accredited third party historians for series of massacres? (check here and here -maximize these to see among others McCarthy, 83, 132-3, 139; Sachar 69, 309; Housepian 66, 30, 190, 201-4; Barton 30, 41, 63; Morgenthau 19, 324-5; Toynbee 22, 142-3, 151, 273-4; Sivard 85,10; Boyajian 72, 153-4, 156; Lang 81, 37; Gross 72, 47n6; Tashjian 82, 131...) If you really wish to sanitize your society, the first thing to do is help it accept its mistakes. Like your author, Orhan Pamuk who was prosecuted for commenting on the Armenian Genocide and the Kurdish killings, and now is a nobelist. Hiding behind our fingers and trying to show night is day, won't help. NikoSilver 23:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ::Whow whow... What is going on dude? I shouldn't even respond to this, but just cut down on things like "your parts" or "wish to sanitize your society". And drop Pamuk man, he won the Nobel for his books. Unlike some people here, I actually read his books, and they were mostly about 15th century ottomans or modern secularists-religious groups. Straw man at work again. "My" author? WTF is going on? This mentality is real not for the 21th century. There is no "my" author, nor "my" parts or something like that.. Stick to the issue at hand: Have you taken a look at Native American Genocide article or have you considered why this article was deleted in German Wiki? If you want this RfC to have any sort of credibility, the debate should cover all grounds. Nikos, read WP:OR one more time: We cannot sew together information to form a thesis. We cannot simply say, "there were eye witness accounts, therefore it must have been genocide". What recongnitions? Greece and Cyprus? That ain't worth shit I am afraid, in the same way a similar Turkish resolution about TR CYP gen would be as well. What NGOs? The one that is co-chaired by a Greek? As I said: what Turkish POV? This has Greek POV written all over it. Please cut down on "my"s and "your"s, however.. Nobody is asking for the deletion of this article. There have also been comments by non-Turk users about the title problem. Are they also my "peeps"? Baristarim 00:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Do not emotionalize the issue by saying "don't you feel sorry for what happened in your parts?" What is the point of this rhetorical question? I have told you so many times before that I wish that nobody had died during the World War. Check the archives. Why are you asking this except to emotionalize the issue? So drop it please.Baristarim 00:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't voted yet although I do have a strong opinion on this matter. I have to say that this is a systemic flaw in Wikipedia. Debate is practically useful only in establishing phrasing which does not offend anyone and accurately represents the facts and of course I'm all for this. But can we really debate on the facts themselves? Also Baris, since you have mentioned it so many times, I wonder what the Native American article title would be if there were more Native American editors in Wikipedia. It's like this article being written exclusively by Turkish people :-) --   Avg    23:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Pfff. Thousands of editors have passed over the Native Americans article, and it is the result of extensive debates and concensus. But your implication that Americans are all in together to hush-hush this issue is also misplaced. There are many Natives in America, and many Americans also believe that what happened was a genocide; however that is not the academic concensus. And the German wiki? There were a lot more German editors voting for deletion than Turkish ones. So where is the conspiracy. Look Avg, nobody is asking for the deletion of the content. As yandman pointed out above, this article looks like a fork at the moment: a better title must be found, many versions presented, and the genocide thesis talked about in the article.Baristarim 00:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Baris, the academic consensus here is that it was a genocide -period. Six third-party academics mentioning it directly or indirectly, dozens more mentioning isolated incidents (as you call them), six US states, 3 NGOs, and dozens of eyewitness accounts are enough for me. This discussion aims to see if they are enough for the rest of the editors. Now, can we please agree that we disagree in a noble way? Let's see what the rest have to say, and leave it at that. Let's not violate the (ingenious, actually) {{Round In Circles}} template anymore. Let the others speak and not be intimidated by a huge debate. Please! NikoSilver 00:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I know, Round In Circles is a good one :)) I agree that we should let the other readers decide, however I would appreciate it if some people not from the Eastern Mediterranean would participate in this. In fact, sadly, Greek-Turkish issues do not bleep on the radar of the general global community, so at the end we will be stuck with this issue, again! I agree to disagree, but I wonder what it would take to oblige impartial editors to look at this. In the last RfC, there was only one person that actually came here via the RfC link. And he had also said that the title should be modified btw, cough cough. I can't be bothered to look for in the archives, but it is there. So let's hope that someone actually drops by. However, Nikos, a voting list filled either by Turks or Greeks can seriously be considered as "concensus" per simple common sense.Baristarim 01:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim and Garnet: It is more than obvious that both of you dispute that the events between 1916 and 1923 (which cost the lives of thousands of Pontian Greeks) constituted a genocide. However, if I am correct, both of you, or one of you, admit that massacres did take place (against the Greeks). Could you please give me an idea of what you know about these massacres. What is your understanding/knowledge of the cause/causes, the nature, the extent, the location, etc.. Did they involve only idividuals, or entire villages/communities? Did they involve only male adults? or did they involve women, children, and seniors? If you cannot, or do not want to bother, could you please refer me to your sources that cite specific events of massacres against the Greeks. I would appreciate it. Rizos01 02:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Since I see that there is no room for dialogue concerning the title of the article (the current poll indicates a clear majority of those supporting the present title), I think we should focus our interest in improving the content of the article, which could be much much better. And discussing in detail the content of the article and the material available, we might be able to find some common ground.--Yannismarou 08:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the poll should be advertised some more? - Francis Tyers · 12:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I added notes to: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Greece and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Turkey. - Francis Tyers · 12:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

You forgot Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History of Greece. I'll leave a note there. Does Wikipedia: WikiProject Greece really exist?! I did not even know that!!!--Yannismarou 16:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a gang nor a democracy. So saying that there is no room for dialogue simply because people are voting by saying: "those damn Turks, they should accept they are butchers; i know there was genocide, and that's it". It doesn't work that way, this article was deleted from the German Wiki, with most of the delete votes coming from Germans. I also would like more impartial editors to voice their opinions here please, if not u r condemning this article to be one of those "damn turco-greek" articles that nobody wants to approach with a thirty foot pole. This is not some sort of vote, it is an RfC. Yannismorou, if you are interested in becoming an admin, you should learn the difference. Votes like "keep. those damn turks" or "keep. per above" are not valid, you should know that. They cannot be considered as "concensus", if that were the case, what is stopping a Turkish user from emailing thirty of his friends to make them come for a vote here? Baristarim 16:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Why do you mix irrelevent things in your interventions? Believe me: those who read you lose the point. 1) What happens in the German or the Greek wiki is irrelevant here. 2) Consensus is needed so that the current title to be modified. Do you see any consensus in this direction, because I don't? And RfCs do not necessarily lead to a consensus or a compromise. I really think you should focus your attention on the content of the article and not the title.--Yannismarou 18:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim: Please, do not go there! Nowhere does the article state or imply "those damn Turks, they should accept they are butchers; i know there was genocide, and that's it". All the article is stating is that the then Turkish authorities committed a genocide against the Pontic Greeks. When it uses the word Turks it refers to the then Turkish authorities and those who participated in the genocide. I have said it before and I will say it again. I am almost certain that most of the Turkish people at the time not only were they not in favor of this policy, but quite the opposite, a lot of them helped save many Greeks. Case in point is my father's survival which most likely could not have been posible without the help of a Turkish lady, who knowing he was Greek, gave him work on her farm, until he left for Greece. Therefore, it is unfair to even attempt to imply that we consider all the Turkish people responsible for these events.---Rizos01 19:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

However, in the commentaries near certain votes, and some of the comments in this page, that's the only thing that is repeated. Really Rizos? I see your very valid point about the Turkish/Greek thing, but why is Nikos referring to things like "clean up "your" society" or to "things that happened in "your" parts? Nobody is asking for the article to be deleted, again, please see Native American genocide which redirects to something else.Baristarim 22:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

As I briefly stated in the straw poll, the term "genocide" should certainly be kept and the only change that should be made regarding the entry is that, instead of naming the it "Pontian Greek Genocide", it should be re-named to "Hellenic Genocide" (or "Greek Genocide") or "Genocide of Asia Minor Greeks" in order to better reflect the victims of the systematic extermination campaign.

Certain individuals are attempting to characterize the Hellenic Genocide as obscure based on search engine results (of all things) in order to minimize it or present it as a possible fabrication by Greeks. However, a major reason why the search results for the Hellenic Genocide aren't extremely high is because there are so many different terms used for it: Hellenic Genocide, Greek Genocide, Genocide of Asia Minor Greeks, Genocide of Asia Minor Hellenes, Pontian Genocide, Pontian Greek Genocide, Pontiac Genocide, Pontiac Greek Genocide, Pontic Genocide, and finally Pontic Greek Genocide. This needs to be clarified which is one of the reasons why, in recent years, genocide scholars and activists have preferred the use of Hellenic Genocide. The other reason is because the extermination campaign against the Greeks of Pontus was only a single aspect of the greater campaign of extermination of Asia Minor Greeks. Unfortunately, the current Wikipedia article only deals with the experience of Greeks from Pontus, something that should be remedied by expanding the article to include all aspects of the Hellenic Genocide.

It should also be pointed out that the Hellenic Genocide has been commemorated not only in Greece but also in Yerevan, Armenia[5] and in Belgrade, Serbia[6]. In addition, there exists a monument commemorating the Pontic Greeks in Canada. The plaque reads "For All The Pontians We Remember Their Time of Sorrow And Sacrifice" and below that it reads "19 of May" (which is the official day of commemoration for the Pontic Greek portion of the Hellenic Genocide) and "1914-1923" (which were the years in which the extermination efforts against the Greeks of northeast Asia Minor were taking place). Critias 21:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

But May I also remind you that all of those countries you've just listed are ethnically Greek? Many articles, including the Greek War of Independence refer to those nationalities as Greek casualties. More than that, they either were or still are bitter enemies to the Turks. And about that plaque, if a group of people really believes in something, such as believing God does not exist, then they will go on and believe that. It doesn't mean that we must fall for their beliefs or write "God (who may not exist)" whenever it is mentioned. If those Greeks in Canada really want to think like that, then let them. But we don't have to lie about Wikipedia's title because of them. -- WiiVolve 02:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Armenia and Serbia are not ethnically Greek. Armenians and Serbs have their own distinct languages, cultures, and ethno-national identities. Regarding the genocide memorial in Canada, it has a Canadian flag flying to its right as well as a Canadian flag on the monument's plaque. Also, I seriously doubt that such a memorial could have been erected without the Canadian government's permission or support. And there is far more evidence than this memorial, as has been demonstrated, that the Hellenic Genocide is not an unfounded belief held only by Greeks. Critias 19:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The following is intended to express support for the use of the term Genocide in reference to the fate of the Greeks of Pontos and Asia Minor. It is an established fact that the Turkish governments of the Young Turks and their successor Mustafa Kemal (later Ataturk) desired the complete destruction of Greek populations that remained under Turkish rule. Paul Fregosi in his book "Jihad" attributes the following quote to Kemal, "It is a sign that Turkey is purged of the traitors, the Christians, and the foreigners, and that Turkey is for the Turks". Kemal made this remark in the aftermath of the burning of Smyrna in September 1922 by his forces.

It is being argued that only Greece and Greeks recognize the fate of the Greeks as "Genocide", and it is implied that historical sources attesting to the Genocide in everything but name (since the term had not been invented yet) are invalid. These are inaccurate assessments. In contrast to the official view that has been espoused by Turkey and its Western supporters for over eighty years, the sources used for the evidence of Genocide had no political or other motivations to lie, whereas the pro-Turkish sources were compromised by prejudices and political interests. Henceforth, the sources cited in support of the recognition of the Greek Genocide are without flaw.

Among the countries that occupied the territory of the fallen Ottoman Empire, Greece alone had 
legitimate interests in the region. During the First World War, Prime Minister Eleutherios Venizelos
told the Greek Parliament, "I will be permitted to say that that man is blind who does not see now
what is going to happen if the Ottoman Empire emerges from this war unimpaired. There will be the
final and total extermination of Hellenism, which began in April 1914". (Greece in her true light Her
position in the World Wide War as expounded by Eleutherios K. Venizelos)

The Prime Minister of Greece submitted a Memorandum entitled "Greece before the Peace Congress
of 1919" in which he justified Greek claims in Asia Minor by asserting, "We must not furthermore,
forget that between 1914 and 1918, four hundred and fifty thousand Greeks have been expelled by 
the Turkish government and have had to take temporary refuge in Greece; that several other hundreds
of thousands have been deported from the east to the interior, where the greater part of them have died.
The mere reinstating of the survivors in their homes and on their confiscated lands presupposes
necessarily the abolition of Turkish sovereignty". 

The use of the term Genocide for the Greeks is based on news reports and historical documents from
individuals who had nothing to gain from supporting the Greeks considering the international climate
against Greece, while those espousing the Turkish denials had a great deal to gain by attaching 
themselves to the line of the Turkish government. Edward Hale Bierstadt of the United States 
Emergency Committee actively witnessed the events of the Genocide, as did Consul General
George Horton. In addition, a physician by the name Herbert Adam Gibbons who was present 
reported on the Turkish horrors in articles published by the Christian Science Monitor.

The denialist view is best represented by American Admiral Mark Bristol, High Commissioner at 
Constantinople. Bristol wrote that "the Greek is about the Worst race in the Near East". Bristol is 
notorious as an apologist for the Turks and his actions have been well publicized in Marjorie 
Housepian Dobkin's "Smyrna 1922". The American interests that Bristol represented were economic
and considering their interest in getting concessions from the Kemalist movement, there is a clear
conflict of interest that discredits the official American line toward the Genocide of the Greeks.

Bierstadt, Horton, and Gibbons had nothing to gain by fabricating Turkish atrocities, and in fact risked
measures of retaliation for not embracing the official line. As with the United States, Great Britain, 
France, and Italy had interests that made them hostile to the Greeks. The Italians coveted Smyrna
during the First World War, and were angry when Greek troops landed there in 1919. They subsequently
assisted the Kemalist movement with arms, and by allowing Kemalists to attack Greek forces from 
territory held by the Italians. The French likewise cut a deal with the Kemalist movement to secure 
their own perceived interests.

The Dobkin book which is well researched and contains numerous historical documents and interviews
with witnesses that were still living during the 1960's, exposes the deliberate undermining of the 
Greek Army in Asia Minor. She specifically cites incidents in which the Italians and British intervened
to protect Kemal and his forces from being destroyed by the Greek Army. The Dobkin book brilliantly
details the extent to which the Great Powers attempted to cover up the Genocide of the Greeks, and
the role of the Western Powers. Attempts to discredit Bierstadt's "The Great Betrayal" is specifically 
cited. 

As an individual familiar with media coverage of Greek-Turkish issues, and having thoroughly examined
the official views of Turkey and the Great Powers during my time at University, I have come to the 
conclusion that Turkey is guilty of Genocide against the Greeks. The pro-Turkish faction has 
ignored the evidence that is cited by the Greeks. The New York Times archives are full of 
documents specifying the details of Turkish atrocities. The truth of the Genocide is assisted not only
by the great deal of material pertaining to the aims of the Young Turks and Kemalists, but by the 
democratization of American society over the decades that has allowed for the relaxation of official
censorship that became policy following the Kemalist military victories of 1922. For example, 
during the 1930's, MGM was set to film "The Forty Days of Musa Dagh" about the Armenian 
Genocide, but under Turkish and American government pressure, the project was dropped attesting
to the reality of Turkish censorship in America. 

There are untapped sources of information for the Greek Genocide that Westerners have ignored. 
A perfect example are materials of the Greek Orthodox Clerics who worked in the midst of Turkish
atrocities. The activities of Metropolitan Chrysostom of Smyrna who fell into disfavor with both the
Young Turks and Kemalists are known. His opposition to Turkish Genocide led to his exile under
the Young Turks, and to his brutal murder under the order of the Kemalist General Noureddin Pasha.
The brutal death of Chrysostom is not disputed as can be seen by the fact that Kemal's biographer,
Andrew Mango mentions the atrocity in his work.

The murder of Chrysostom cannot be separated from the slaughter of the Greek and Armenian 
Christians at Smyrna. Chrysostom confirmed the Genocide at Smyrna in a letter sent to exiled 
Prime Minister Venizelos in London. Another important Greek Orthodox Cleric is Metropolitan 
Chrysanthos of Trebizond who was also an antagonist of the Turks. Chrysanthos extended all his
support and compassion toward Greeks and Armenians facing unrelenting persecution. Chrysanthos
attended the various peace conferences and met with Prime Minister Venizelos in which he 
emphasized the terrible plight of the Christians of Trebizond. The Ecumenical Patriarchate is 
also an excellent source of material such as the "Black Book" which recounts persecution by 
its various Dioceses in Asia Minor, specific statistics of Greek Orthodox Christians, and countless
examples of brutal killings

There is a great deal of work and material from various Christian missionaries attesting to the 
Genocide of the Greeks. The denial of the Greek Genocide attests to the politicization of history 
as a result of strategic and political interests. Only Greece in Asia Minor was preoccupied with
the well being of the native Christian populations in Asia Minor. The great powers were preoccupied
with their own imperialistic interests and concerns. In our day however, thanks to the growing body
of evidence that is being put forward by professional scholars and historians the historical truth is 
being discovered.

It is no longer possible for Turkish enablers to censor the historical realities. For decades, it was not
possible for the full truth to be known. The Great Powers assisted the regime of Mustafa Kemal with
the Treaty of Lausanne. This Treaty which ignored the Genocide of the Greeks, legitimized with the 
cover of international law, the ethnic cleansing of 1,000,000 Greeks from their ancestral homelands
where their ancestors had lived for 3,000 years. 

The official Turkish denials have been fueled by what Edward Hale Bierstadt referred to as "economic
imperialism". There is no substance behind the Turkish denials as can be attested to by the intimidation
of Turkish dissidents and efforts to bribe American Universities by the Turkish government. The movement
for the recognition of the Hellenic Genocide will continue to gain strength because their are too many
historical materials on record attesting to this reality. 


 Byzantion Byzantio 04:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Misunderstanding Wikipedia

Your discussion and this voting is based on a misunderstanding of what wikipedia is and what it is not. We do by no means decide whether something was or wasn't a genocide. The only thing we do, is give the most common name in English sources as a title (in this case genocide seems the prefered choice). Naturally you have to mention the different positions whether or not the title and its meaning is disputed. In The Holocaust article for example the denial of such events is mentioned and the same is neccessary here, so the reader gets informed about all POV. In case you report about a hoax like "First Washington Oktoberfest" you say: "According to Wandalstouring(1,1 - source) the so called First Washington Oktoberfest was a hoax just made up to demonstrate a hoax." but you need to source this and in case its only a POV you have to add clearly who pushes this opinion.Wandalstouring 13:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur.--Eupator 15:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur also. -- Rizos01 15:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I basically agree, and, that is why, I think the focus should be on the content.--Yannismarou 17:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Wandalstouring has hit the nail on the head, so to speak. In this case, there seems to be no compelling reason to locate the article at a different name, as genocide seems to prevail in the literature. Clearly, space should be given to legitimate arguments to the contrary, but minority opinions should not generally influence the naming of an article. Carom 17:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the focus should be on the content, but first the tag must be removed. Mitsos 19:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of how Wikipedia works, however this doesn't explain why Native American Genocide article redirects to "Population history of Native Americans" as I pointed out before. + Keeping in mind that this article was deleted in the German Wiki with a majority of the delete votes coming from Germans. This is not some sort of lame naming dispute like Gdansk/Danzig. The title of the article is only supported by very few claims and the fact that Greece and Cyprus + 3 NGOs have passed resolutions to that effect. One of the authors cited, Rummel, refers to everything as genocide, South America, every single colonial war etc. There is definitely not a major reference in literature to this. Baristarim 21:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

But how was it established that this is the most common name in English sources? I’m not much familiar with this issue, so I checked a couple of books on the subject, and they don’t refer to the event as genocide. For example, the book by Bruce Clark uses the word genocide only once, and in the following context:

Page 242:

There is one particularly striking example of ties recently rediscovered; which promise to be subversive of Greek and Turkish ideology alike. That is the kinship between extended families from the Black Sea region who were divided during the chaotic and tragic sequence of mountain warfare, deportation and forced marches during the decade which preceded the population exchange. In part because of these half-suppressed blood ties, the Pontic Greek community (a significant lobby in Athenian affairs) is rather conflicted in its attitude to Turkey. On one hand, it urges politicians in Athens to take the hardest possible line in its dealings with the Turkish authorities, and to insist, however unrealistically, that Turkish politicians acknowledge the ‘genocide’ perpetrated by the Kemalist forces against the Black Sea Greeks in 1921.

Bruce Clark. Twice a Stranger: The Mass Expulsions that Forged Modern Greece and Turkey. ISBN-10: 0674023684

And then another book also does not use the term genocide:

Page 98

Ambassador Morgenthau, the most prominent critic of wartime Turkish persecution of civilians, estimated that between 200,000 and 1,000,000 Greeks were transported to the interior of Asia Minor, where they "suffered great privations, but they were not submitted to general massacre as were the Armenians." He attributed this difference in treatment to the existence of a Greek government, and to the concern of Turkey's ally Germany that Greece might enter the war.

Benjamin Lieberman. Terrible Fate: Ethnic Cleansing in the Making of Modern Europe. ISBN-10: 1566636469

Preferred terms in these books appear to be mass expulsion, forceful exchange of population, ethnic cleansing, etc. It appears that the process was going both ways, as there’s a description in Clark's book of a similar treatment of Turkish population in Greece, albeit in a lesser scale:

Page 161

In most cases, the fate of these (Muslim) migrants was not as terrible as that of the Anatolian Christians who fled either in the heat of war, or as a result of forced marches followed by forced embarkations on ships riddled with disease; but the Muslim exodus was bad enough.

In my opinion, the title of the article should be less controversial, and the article should provide for all viewpoints, including those that consider the event to be genocide and those that don’t. I’m not going to get involved in this issue, it’s just my 2 cents in response to RfC. Regards, Grandmaster 19:26, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

To Wandalstouring and Carom, as you will see from my statement, my argument has never been was it or was it not genocide, but rather the title does not reflect academic opinion. I do not see how you could judge that this title is well attested by literature when one cannot find a monograph to its name or even a journal article, or a notable scholar using such a name to describe the events. When a well known historian such as Mazower says Greeks did not suffer a genocide unlike Armenians, then i tend to take his view more seriously than the paltry use of the term Pontian greek genocide in a few sentences by lesser known scholars. Likewise i dont understand Croms statement than minority views should not determine titles when it is this title that is the minority view as shown by the lack of authorative sources and lack of international recognition outside of Greece and Greek Cyprus. --A.Garnet 22:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to be swayed - my impression was formed by the results of a Lexis-Nexis search, as well as a few other journal articles and working papers, notably this, this, and this (apologies that one can only view the abstracts). I observed what appeared to be a consensus in favor of the term "genocide," (or at least, "ethnic cleansing") and my argument followed from that. If my impression was incorrect, then it was incorrect, but I would certainly contest the claim that "this title is the minority view as shown by the lack of authoritative sources." Carom 22:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

To Garnet: You have repeatedly stated your assertion that there is not sufficient academic opinion to support the genocide claim, but you then quote Mazower and take his only one sentence as gospel. Please point me to one specific book or research of his that deals with the Greek experience. Also, I think it is more appropriate to quote him accurately "But these deportations were on a relatively small scale and do not appear to have been designed to end in their victims' deaths." The key words here are "and do not appear to" which indicates that he is not certain of his assessment. For your information any credible historical research is based on first hand accounts, and the foreign ministry/diplomatic archives or news reports of the various countries that had diplomats/missions/correspondents in the region in question. Again please point me to one of his books that is based on this type of research. --Rizos01 23:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Carom, Levene is by no means a good source. Firstly he never uses the term Pontian greek genocide though he uses Armenian genocide without hesitation, and of the Pontian experience admits "Historians ... tend to avoid the term genocide to describe them." Of the second one i have no access, does he use the term genocide? Coming from a Greek author i would not be surprised, that does not mean i am dismissing this scholar on the basis of his ethnicity, only that we are trying to establish here whether the Greek pov is the majority pov, and for that we need authoratative third party sources. Of the third i believe it deals with ethnic cleansing. Of these three sources, i cannot see a consensus in favour of the term genocide, what i see is a tendency to avoid it, rather using massacres or ethnic cleansing.

To Rizo, eyewitness accounts are important, but we do not attach our own interpretations to them, that is original research. If we look at Midlarsky, he used some of the very same quotations in this article but concluded "there is a strong disjunction between intentions and actions" and that "Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option". Also Rizo, it is a bit rich asking me to provide you with a book dealing with the Greek experience when you have not been able to do the same. You know that there simply is no book or dedicated research on this subject, and that makes finding a correct title very difficult. --A.Garnet 02:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I put "Pontic genocide" in Google: I have 12.200 hits. I put "Pontic massacre": I have 972 hits.

I then searched in "Google Book" and "Google Scholar" and I did encountered the term several times. Let's see:

"Not Even My Name: From a Death March in Turkey to a New Home in America, a Young Girl's True" by By Thea Halo (2001):"Although Turkey actively suppresses the truth about the murder of almost three million of its Christian minorities--Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian--during and after World War I, and the exile of millions of others, here is a first-hand account of the horrors of that genocide."

Mark Levene (Holocaust and Genocide Studies 1998):"The persistence of genocide or near-genocidal incidents from the 1890s through the 1990s, committed by Ottoman and successor Turkish and Iraqi states against Armenian, Kurdish, Assyrian, and Pontic Greek communities in Eastern Anatolia".

J Jackson Preece: Ethnic Cleansing as an Instrument of Nation-State Creation (Human Rights Quarterly, 1998):"politically suspect ethnic groups (eg, Chechens, Tatars, Pontic Greeks) cleansed" - I do not think that "ethnic cleansing" is very different from "genocide".

JO POHL - Stalin’s genocide against the “Repressed Peoples” - Journal of Genocide Research, 2000"Stalin’s genocide against the ... Ingush, Balkars, Crimean Tatars, Meskhetian Turks, Geor- gian Kurds, Khemshils (Muslim Armenians), and Pontic Greeks" - so the term is also referring to Stalin's wrongdoings (deportations and persecutions against Pontic Greeks) - not only the Turks.

The repetitive international conferences (all over the world and not only in Greece) concerning the "Pontic genocide are also of a certain importance. Check this one:"International Association of Genocide

Scholars (IAGS) - Conference: June 4-7 2005 - Florida Atlantic University - Boca Raton, FL - Papers presented: "The Exclusivity of Suffering: When Tribal concerns takes presidence over hisrorical accuracy" - "The Genocide of the Pontic Greeks and Assyrians: the hidden victims of the Armenian Genocide."

I must, nevertheless, admit that Google Book's bibliography concerning "Pontic Greek Genocide" is quite poor, although Charles King treats the whole issue ("The Black Sea: A History") without taking a clear positions (p.1: "Were these forced migrations and the deaths 9 [of the Pontic Greeks among other] they produced instances of genocide?".

King shrewdly points out: "The easy conceptual distinctions between genocide, ethnic cleansing, and forced migration are normally lost on the targets of state-organized violence". I hope these findings of my quick and mal-organized research help.--Yannismarou 09:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It is clear that "genocide" predominates in the English literature at least. Of course the Armenian Genocide is better referenced due to the sheer scale of the Armenian losses, but it is disingenuous to suggest that the perpetrators made any sort of distinction between Armenians and Assyrians on the one hand and Greeks on the other. The Christians were slaughtered together. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I know I may become boring, but I insist that our focus should be on upgrading the quality of the article (which is hardly a B-Class now) and not on debating about the title. This particular debate leads nowhere. Wandalstouring said some thoughtful things previously. I think we should think a bit about them.--Yannismarou 10:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yannis, "Pontian genocide" returns one hit in google books ("Pontic genocide" 0 hits) and that is by a Turkish author using the term "so called Pontian genocide". Likewise in google scholar 1 hit for "Pontian genocide", a study on female Greek immigrants and 0 hits for "Pontic genocide". Compare that to "Armenian genocide" which is 1,320 and you put into perspective the lack of verifiable sources for this title. As for your sources, again, i see no firm trend towards usage of the term genocide. Thea Halo is a fist hand account, but she is not academic, historian or researcher. We have already shown how Levene avoids the term Pontian genocide, and states most historians would not use that term to describe it. As for Jackson and ethnic cleansing, how can you say ehtnic cleansing and genocide are much the same, they are two completely different things. Ethnic cleansing can involve the displacement of people, not necesarrily their death. That is why the population exchange of 1923 is referred to as ethnic cleansing, as is the division of Greek and Turkish Cypriots. The IAGS paper looks interesting, but i would really like to read it before I made a judgement. --A.Garnet 12:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not say the genocide and ethnic cleansing are the same thing, but according to international criminal law they are both serious crimes against humanity entailing the highest possible sentences (they are almost at the same scale of atrocity). Would you be happy if the article's name was "Pontic Greek ethnic cleansing"?--Yannismarou 12:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have read my statement, there are other much more productive google tests. Don't forget that Pontians are not a separate ethnic group, they are Greeks (just like Anatolian Armenians -or whatever Armenians- are just Armenians). Now see "greek genocide -wikipedia" which has a whopping 1.1 million hits (compared e.g. to "armenian genocide -wikipedia" with 1.19 million hits). NikoSilver 16:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

WHAT UTTER NONSENSE IS THIS? "Greek Genocide -wikipedia" returns 1,450 hits [7]!!!!!! WHAT WHOPPING 1,1 MILLION HITS? Of course you will get so many hits if search any page that includes the words "genocide" and "greek". Do your research carefully please.. Baristarim 20:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Just proves my point though.. The whole sources, research and claims are so confused that this article should be used as an example in WP:OR page.. Baristarim 20:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Listen up, we solve this issue with good sourcing. I create a sources section here. In this section you insert who refers where to this incident with what words (preferably in form of a direct quote). For example: Wandalstouring, My first research, page1, natural publishing 111, ISBN 0-00000-000 www.wiki.wiki "I'm in front of a computer." Afterwards we verify that the listed sources exist and have that content. If this is solved we can simply count which term is used more in our selection of sources. Wandalstouring 14:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Native Americans vs Pontians

Baris requested I should check, as a parallel, the case of Native American genocide.

I have these differentiating remarks:

quotes from Native American genocide	difference with Pontic Greek Genocide
Stannard's claim of 100 million deaths has been disputed because he does not cite any demographic data to support this number, and because he makes no distinction between death from violence and death from disease.	Many sources use demographic data.
While no mainstream historian denies that death and suffering were unjustly inflicted by a number of Europeans upon a great many American natives, many argue that genocide, which is a crime of intent, was not the intent of European colonization.	There are no historians "argueing it was not the intent".

The main difference can be summed up as follows:

While the majority of academics argue that Native Americans were not the victims of genocide, for the Pontic case, the majority of academics argue that it was a genocide. Most importantly: there is nobody who contests PGG explicitly (unlike Native Americans). NikoSilver 20:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I was referring to the format and structure of the article. Meaning: different title so that the scope of the article is larger, which in turn means that many aspects are covered + the genocide thesis is talked about in the intro. That's the whole point: I was talking about the title, not neccessarily the contents. My position has always been that, as yandman said, this article is POVforking at the moment. The scope has to be enlarged so that it covers a greater area. The genocide thesis should be mentioned in the intro or in the sections. That will be the sane thing to do: Nobody will be deleting any data, and a greater analysis of the time period as well as the events and the genocide thesis will be fairer on the reader.

What "majority of academics" Nikos? Funny that I won't get any hits on google scholar if I actually wanted to read some serious research about this. The only "sources" are a bunch of paragraphs from books etc. What majority are you talking about? And the google search "greek genocide -wikipedia" returns only a whopping 1,450 hits, and not millions as you earlier claimed. So what "majority"? Baristarim 20:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Responded about scholar et.al. below. There are academics mentioning it, and none explicitly disputing it, unlike Nat.Ams. They largely ignore it. NikoSilver 21:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Poll notification

There is an RfC combined with a staw poll running in this page here. Your contribution is valuable both in the discussion and in the poll. Please study the case and express your opinion to achieve the widest possible consensus...

Just to add, i consider this poll irrelevant. --A.Garnet 17:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

How uncooperative you are! //Dirak 17:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

No, if you insist on reducing this rfc to signing your name under a support heading, then it is you who is being uncooperative. This is a request for comment i.e. a discussion, not a demonstration in block voting. --A.Garnet 17:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed - the poll demonstrates how unpopular your views/proposals are around here. You'll have to cede ground if you want some sort of compromise to be reached... //Dirak 17:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Unpopular among Greek editors yes. But that is to be expected. --A.Garnet 18:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Thus emerges your "uncooperativeness". //Dirak 18:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Garnet, the issue is clear. As Baris agreed above, we disagree on the following:

I and the rest of the supporters assess that...

• 6 explicit or implicit independent academic sources
• 6 US states
• 3 NGOs
• dozens of academic sources citing the "isolated facts" (as you call them)
• millions of Google hits
• prominent media of the era (such as The New York Times)
• dozens of eyewitness accounts etc etc

...suffice for us to call the article "Pontic Greek genocide". They are obviously not enough, or not as significant, or not as important, for you to do so, but they are enough for me. Is there anything else we disagree about? NikoSilver 18:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems that according to A.Garnet, Greek views are worthless. Turkish views OTOH are something akin to the word of Allah. //Dirak 18:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

That is a different story. Do we agree on what we disagree on? Garnet? NikoSilver 18:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Aha.. Dirak, may I ask you something? After the AfD on the article that you created six days ago "Kurdish Genocide (Turkey)" was practically deleted as speedy with many delete votes coming from non-Turks, you created another article "Kurdich Genocide" and made it a redirect to "Human Rights of Kurdish people in Turkey". May I ask why? Kurdish genocide can easily get redirected to "Human Rights in Iraq" and much more rightly so. I found it a bit curious to say the least. Freudian slip, I dare say? Cough cough. Please do not continue your disruption of Wikipedia.

Please do not emotionalize this issue. Greek views are of course important, but they are not impartial nor do they represent the global academic concensus. I am sure that there are thousands of Turkish sources out there about how Greeks committed a genocide against the Turks in Cyprus, but they cannot be included at face value since they are not impartial. Baristarim 18:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, straw men flying all over the place! Refuting an argument never advanced - a common logical fallacy. Are the supporters of the genocide title relying on all Greek sources? No Do the majority of the non-Greek non-Turkish sources we have endorse the genocide thesis? Yes. Why are you still here? //Dirak 18:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

And Dirak.. Believe me there is nothing "unpopular" about the views of me or Garnet. Many editors and even admins are afraid to take part in this vote, even though they are not happy with this title, simply because they are afraid of the block vote of some people. Again, see the Native American article and the AfD of this article in German wiki. There is no academic concensus and the fact that it is only Greece and Cyprus that recognize it as such is definitely a red flag. This is not some lame naming dispute like Gdansk/Danzig, and you will need more than 6 "explicit or implicit" academic sources about this. This doesn't get any hits on Google scholar, which is better than a google search where most of the results are not from turkishbutchers.com or hellenicgenocide.com. This is not some sort of fan club. Google scholar gives no hits. Might as well be talking to a wall really..Baristarim 18:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

What majority of "non-Greek, non-Turkish sources"? Did you see WP:OR? First of all, all those witness accounts of some American ambassador ninety years ago are not important since they do not support the fundamemtal problem of the title. And the sources that directly address the title issue are divided, not to mention the fact that there are only a few who have looked into this in more than just in a paragraph or so. That's not extensive academic research. This doesn't return any hits on Google Scholar, so do you have a reliable, academic source who only researched this issue? No. That's all I am saying.Baristarim 19:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Look, nobody is trying to slight any suffering of anyone. I hope that you do not think this. I am more than willing to seriously work on this article and devote hours, not to "expose the Turkish POV", but to really make it a comprehensive and encyclopedic article about the situation of Pontic Greeks during the WWI and later. I really mean it, I will spend hours expanding this article if neccessary. But I will also be honest when I say I cannot simply do that if this title issue is not addressed since I cannot see it being more than a minority interpretation. So please don't think that there are some editors who are trying to disrespect someone or their past. This title is so disputed and represents a minority view among the already few reliable academic sources that actually do talk about them to begin with. Baristarim 19:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

That's what I consider the problem here. You keep repeating "genocide is a minority view" again and again, knowing it isn't true. I say sources, not eyewitness quotes... again you are setting up straw men. If you get all the sources we have on the topic and look at, them, the majority support the genocide thesis. Additionally, if we apply the tight screening process we use on the sources supporting the genocide thesis to the sources Garnet cites saying they oppose it, it seems that there are no independent sources denying it. Garnet is using a liberal method of interpretation in those cases, for example one source says that what happened to the Pontic Greeks was "different" to what happened to the Armenians - Garnet assumes this means that the scholar is saying that the Pontic Greeks did not suffer genocide. I don't see that! All I see is that the scholar says there is a difference. Well, even I agree there is a difference: the scale for one thing. The majority of Armenians living in the area died, whereas about half the Pontian Greeks managed to escape with their lives. Does this mean that it was not genocide? Not in itself. On the other hand, we do have independent sources that do say that yes, what happened to the Pontian Greeks was genocide. Why do you cover it up? Again, I repeat: out of all the sources we have on the issue the majority affirm genocide. Where is the minority view? //Dirak 19:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. My opinion is that the sources are more than enough, and that the counter-sources are selective bits and pieces gathered from here and there. We disagree. I requested before, and I request again that we don't flood this page anymore. NikoSilver 19:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Pff. Do not say things like "why do you cover it up?". Noone is trying to cover something here and such approach to the subject is really childish. I stated my position: Noone is asking for deletion, nor am I advocating the deletion of the genocide controversy from the article. I am talking about the title. What sources are you talking about Dirak? Rummel who claims that 200,000,000 people died in the last centuries because of genocide? Is this it? He considers every single colonial war as democide/genocide!! Not to mention the fact that he confuses the scholarly definition of genocide with the obscure term "cultural genocide" which is an extremely controversial terminology. I looked into the sources, and I am still saying that there needs to be more than couple of paragraphs in random books, preferably much more hits on google scholar (compared to the actual zero) and recognitions by the best friends of Turkey, Cyprus and Greece. Again, see the Native American genocide who redirects to something else and the AfD of this article in German Wiki in which a majority of the deleters were Germans, not Turks. Nikos, you said that you were going to take a look at the Native American article, what happened? Baristarim 19:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that the sources are more than enough, and that the counter-sources are selective bits and pieces gathered from here and there. We disagree. I requested before, and I request again that we don't flood this page anymore, ({{Round In Circles}}) and allow the #Starw Poll and third-party comments here to proceed smoothly. NikoSilver 19:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

(I didn't say anything about Nat.Americans, but now that you mention it I will look at it). NikoSilver 19:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

If Google Scholar and Google Books hits are everything, then WTF was my Kurdish Genocide article renamed for? Did you see my comment at the AFD? //Dirak 20:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

They are important to establish that the matter at hand is serious enough to be in the preoccupation of academia. Did you read my comment about the whopping EIGHT hits the kurdish genocide (turkey) had in Google scholar? Three of them were from the same site and two of them were directly from the only thesis (of the Spanish guy, who is definitely not a notable historian) that you included in the article. Are you joking? Are we going to create articles for the thesis of every pseudo-historian out there? Nearly all the hits that "Kurdish genocide" gets refer to Iraq. Did you read the "strong delete" votes that came from many non-Turks? Baristarim 20:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I still don't get why different standards have to be applied at different pages to maintain the turkish POV. //Dirak 20:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

? What "different standards"? Eight hits is not enough, and zero is definitely not enough. What Turkish POV? Your article was AfDed by an Englishman, what are you talking about Dirak? Cut down on the paranoia. Many admins and non-Turks also voted for deletion of that article, I would read the AfD one more time if I were you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baristarim (talk • contribs) 20:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

What "majority of sources"?? There are practically NONE. Pontic Genocide get ZERO hits on Google scholar [8], what "sources"? A crackpot who claims that nearly every colonial war was a genocide is not a "majority of sources", let alone "a source". Even a simple google search for "greek genocide -wikipedia" gets only 1,450 hits.Baristarim 20:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Web  Results 1 - 10 of about 1,100,000 for greek genocide -wikipedia. (0.04 seconds)

The link is here. Do you have some ...anti-Greek firewall or something? NikoSilver 21:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I see 53 books here and 8,460 here. Any more questions? NikoSilver 21:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this [9]? Stop tricking the system, did you use "the exact words" feature? like this: "greek genocide" -wikipedia? I stand corrected. Please change the misleading info you gave in your view above. Use the "exact words" feature please.Baristarim 21:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

"Results 1 - 20 of about 1,450 for "greek genocide" -wikipedia. (0.04 seconds)" [10]? And the funny thing is, some of those refer to the Greek genocide of Macedonians [11]. Zero hits on google scholar, 1,450 hits on google. Let alone a "majority of sources", there are simply "no sources". Baristarim 21:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, talk to A.Garnet who put Armenian genocide above without quotes. I sincerely clicked his link and then only replaced Armenian with Greek. And, also, why does it have to be exact quote? Your exact quote excludes Rummel in scholar... Weird logic... NikoSilver 21:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Re Baris! :-) Please stop spamming your comment also in my talk-page! I read you the first time! NikoSilver 21:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I was not "spamming" :) Ok then, A. Garnet also should correct his google search. Exact quote is pretty much the concensus google search tradition. Otherwise things can get too complicated; even with "exact words" search, you can still hit snags like I pointed above with the macedonian example. So both Nikos and Alf should correct their figures, it is extremely confusing. We all know what kind of wacko results Google can give; therefore it should be the exact quotes version, no matter what you are arguing about. And this is also a note to everyone: pls bring in google searches that use that feature, and if need be try it with different similar spellings "mike's car", "car of mike" etc, then list them all - that will be only fair to the uninformed reader. I was way too confused when I saw such discrepancies in numbers. But no biggie Nikos, I know that it was an honest mistake. Alf should have also used that search version.Baristarim 22:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok man, no worries, I'll see what I can do. How about this vs that? It forces both words (and doesn't exclude Rummel/Levene etc either). NikoSilver 22:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Nikos didnt use quotes with the searches in his statement so i had to do the same for comparison. --A.Garnet 22:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

We have a problem with quotes. It removes legitimate hits. Equally forced terms, same results. Check above. NikoSilver 22:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

SpaceBalls

Note: I am moving here comment by User:SpaceBalls that was included in #Statement by A.Garnet. Comments should not be included within other users' statements. NikoSilver 14:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Garnet's fixation on the ethnic origin of editors and contributors or witnesses or academics cited is racist and ought not be given any consideration. Many writers and historians of the Jewish Holocaust may also happen to be Jewish as, naturally, would be many witnesses to this event, but to focus on the ethnic origin, nationality,religion , sexual orientation etc etc of a credible source of first hand information is not sound historiography, it follows the racist patterns of Holocaust Deniers. If we accept this point of racist hysteria,which Garnet seems to advance, then we would have to filter all contributors based on ethnic origin, nationality,religion , sexual orientation etc etc.

Some of the academic affirmations of the Pontic Greek Genocide comes from such world renown genocide scholars as R.J. Rummel , Taner Akcam, Dr. Israel Charny and Hilmar Kaiser and the list goes on and on, and to make a point which ought not have to morally be made, none of the aforementioned genocide scholars happen to be Greek. SpaceBalls 06:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 07:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Right. Rummel considers every single colonial war to be genocide/democide. He says that nearly 200,000,000 people have died in the last centuries because of genocide/democide. Nor does he make a proper distinction between the scholarly definition of genocide and "cultural genocide", a highly controversial term. Taner Akçam only refers to AG, not to this. Rummel is not a "world renown genocide scholar"; if he were, there would thirty more genocides. Hear that Kekrops? It is obvious who is emotionalizing this issue. As was pointed above, neither Turkish nor Greek sources can be considered impartial. This is basic common sense. Nobody has said that the Greek POV was unimportant, but it has the same value as the Turkish POV, not more, not less. That's all. There needs to be impartial sources. Cut down on the paranoia and accusations of racism. I wonder if the true racism doesn't lie with the mentality behind your comments - calling Turkish editors "those racist detractors here": those were your words.Baristarim 16:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

At the expense of sounding repetitive ,wikipedia should definitely avoid following the racist patterns of Holocaust Deniers by taking into consideration the ethnic origin, nationality,religion , sexual orientation etc etc of credible scholars as well as editors and contributors who concerned with the advancement of Genocide awareness. Much like it ought not matter what the ethnic origin, nationality,religion , sexual orientation etc etc of other editors and contributors are to Jewish Holocaust related wikipedia entries, it morally should be the same for any editor or contributor to Pontic Greek Genocide awareness.

Wrong. Just becuase Greece passed a resolution calling it a genocide ten years ago, it doesn't make it so. The comparisons with the Holocaust are childish, unacademic, and desperate cries for attention.Baristarim 16:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The recent book by renown Genocide scholar and University of Minnessota Professor, Taner Akcam, titled [ http://www.popmatters.com/pm/books/reviews/8619/a-shameful-act-the-armenian-genocide-and-the-question-of-turkish-responsibi "A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility "] clearly documents the Turkish gov't's responsibility for this crime of Genocide. Israeli Genocide scholar and Hebrew University professor Dr. Israel Charny also documents the Pontic Greek Genocide in his landmark study [ http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=6641260 "Is The Holocaust Unique?"] For the information of the racist detractors here, neither of these Genocide scholars , are, as far as I know, and not that it would matter, neither of them are Greek.

Taner Akçam's book is about the Armenian genocide, not about the Pontic Greeks.Baristarim 16:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Well at least this has made you finally acknowledge the reality of the Armenian Genocide, rather than the "so-called Armenian Genocide/massacres/killings/[insert other euphemism here]". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

??? I am sorry, am I missing something here? Is this a personal blog or an online forum? A book is not going to change my views either way. This is not the debate club of a high school. I would really like it if you didn't a)put words in my mouth, b)turn this into an exposé of my views. You do not know my views, and they are not relevant in any case. That's the whole point: the whole discussion is dominated by people who treat Wikipedia as an online forum: "so what do you think about this, about that?" Baristarim 16:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The very fact that the Genocide was cited by numerous non-Greek diplomats, [ http://members.fortunecity.com/fstav1/genocide/genocide.html humanitarians], and eyewitness reporters and goverment officials and documented by numerous newspapers of the day and is , even in recent years cited as Genocide in numerous scholarly books and newspapers is reason enough for it to remain, morally, cited as Pontic Greek Genocide , here on wikipedia. Please do not follow the pattern of a heavily censorhip driven regime in Turkey, which to this day outlaws public discussion of the Armenian Genocide as well as the Pontic Greek Genocide. Stand on the side of Genocide awareness and moral justice. Please do not allow the victims to be erased or deleted. SpaceBalls 07:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

SpaceBalls welcome. Please cite those additional sources properly (book title, author, year, page numbers, and if possible exact quotes). Thank you. NikoSilver 14:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Aha. And cut down on the paranoia of Turkish users being some sort of Turkish secret service agents. By the way, there is no "censorship-driven regime" in Turkey, whoever says so is completely talking out of his arse. Books about the Armenian Genocide are openly sold in Turkey, as well as many TV discussion programs to that effect. For people to keep things in perspective, remember that Turkey ranked higher than Italy for media freedom in 2005. Keep that in mind, and do not allow the emotionalization of this issue nor the paranoia to invade this discussion. Nobody is asking for deletion, the question is the title and the current status of this article as a povfork. Nikos, it might be actually nice if you said something to people who come in here and accuse people with blanket statements like "racist detractors here". Spaceballs, do not emotionalize this issue nor confuse this issue with the armenian genocide or something else. Taner Akcam's book only refers to the AG. So Nikos, is it ok for people to come in here and say "those racist detractors here"?. How about saying something more than "welcome"? Baristarim 15:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh please! You accused us of white supremacism just the other day, based on a single user's personal page, and were quite unapologetic about it. The pot calling the kettle black, yet again. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

And what's this about Turkey ranking higher than Italy in press freedom? Really? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:14, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

? I didn't accuse a group of people of white supremacism (what's the deal with the "us" thing?). I responded to this above, please have a look at it again. I explained my reasons why I mentioned the views of that particular user.Baristarim 16:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

As for the press freedom. This is irrelevant to the article, however I was talking about a specific report about the freedom of media. Italy did rank below Turkey because of the monopoly of news media in Italy. There are much more political views aired in the Turkish news media. Anyways, I will look for it.Baristarim 16:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Back to contributing, please. Let's start from here:

• Taner Akcam: Scholar, Books, Article. Book quotes?
• Dr. Israel Charny: Scholar, Books. Book quotes?
• Hilmar Kaiser: Scholar, Books
• ...and another one I found on the way: Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt) By Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten:

...So is the Turkish Consul General [alive and well], now complaining to the university administration that the Center of Comparative Genocide Studies, which I direct, has (unfairly?, unwisely?) allowed the Greek community to fund a research unit devoted to the genocide of the Pontian Greeks, by the Turks, after World War I. The Center, founded by me at the end of 1993, has its somewhat clumsy title because the senior professor above, the one who wanted "balance", was a little anxious at the University Council meeting, which has the power to establish Centers, that plain "Genocide Studies" would be a little unbalanced -"You know, a little too, ah, you know..." We know. There is of course, a very strong case for the visibility of "comparative": it allows us to develop a model of gradiations of genocide, to avoid the obvious trap of flattening all genocides, of allowing scholars to get away with blatant misuse of the term when they seek to highlight a wrong by reaching for the ultimate cannon in the armory.

Very nice ironic approach for all deniers. I suppose this old comment of mine is the solution to "gradiations"... I'm looking forward to see actual quotes by the rest... NikoSilver 16:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Just curious: aren't you guys doing anything for X-mas? :)) At least I am not Christian or anything.. Merry Christmas all the same. Baristarim 16:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Haha, actually I'm doing exactly what all of us should. I am home with my family. Check the Turkish Consul General's intervention above. Fits like a glove to your discussion about "freedom of media", doesn't it? :-) NikoSilver 16:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and FYI, regarding warnings for accusations etc, I'd expect better performance from a wikistalker like you! :-) Check both SpaceBalls' and Garnet's talks. :-) NikoSilver 16:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Pff. What stalking man? Baristarim 21:19, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Christmas? As if the Greek Wikipedian Chauvinist Cabal has time for such frivolities. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to know what these two are about: [12], [13]. Does anyone have access please? NikoSilver 17:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

And a nice one on labor battalions. NikoSilver 17:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

For informational purposes, I linked to some of the sources, and some of the books I will have to take some more time to find actual page numbers, meanwhile , I provide you with the [ http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide] , Artil 2 states , and I quote: " Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. "

Here is quote from The New York Times of NEW YORK, SATURDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1922 , by By EDWIN I. JAMES. "-- A black page of modern history was written here today. Ismet Pasha stood before the statesmen of the civilized world and admitted that the banishment from Turkish territory of nearly a million Christian Greeks, who were two million only a few short years ago had been decreed. The Turkish Government graciously allows two more weeks for the great exodus. The statesmen of the civilized powers accepted the Turkish dictum and set about ways to get those thousands of Greeks out of harm's way before they should meet the fate of 800,000 Armenians who were massacred in Anatolia in 1910 and 1917. "

The quote above is a clear violation of UN Article 2 (b)

Finally, to substantiate the point about censorship of this topic by the Turkish gov't , I cite a [ http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4527318.stm BBC news report] from 2005.

SpaceBalls 01:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Right.. Well, I know that convention from back to front, don't worry. Do not confuse concepts and understand that Wikipedia is not a forum. a) we cannot interpret the events and sources before we include them in the article: what's important is not our beliefs, but research that has been done to that effect beforehand. That's why such statements or eyewitness accounts are not important as far as the title is concerned: we cannot interpret them to prove a thesis. They are what they are: eye-witness accounts etc. b) people who just come in here pretending that they are some sort of master of jurisprudence should learn that: i) that convention is much more complicated than some people think it is, ii) it is very amateur to say "this happened, it is contrary to article this and that". Don't want to get into details about that convention, but just know that it is not our business to do so anyways: Wikipedia is not a courtroom. I am assuming you are new to wikipedia, so I don't want to be too hard on you.

And, the example of the population exchange that you gave has nothing do with this article's title: It concerns the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, and it is excluded from the reach of that convention, not to mention the fact that the convention didn't even exist back then. + It might be nice if you didn't go down that road, since millions of Muslims also had to move out of the Balkans from 1910 onwards, so I can use the same logic to prove that there was a Muslim genocide in the Balkans 1910-1922. Besides, what's important is the jurisprudence, not what the text says per se. You should learn to read legal documents carefully: most words used in law do not carry the same meaning they have in ordinary language, and can refer to strictly defined concepts and notions that most people won't understand, unless they have made extensive legal research to understand the text beforehand. + Avoid anachronisms: Do not confuse eras, values, judgements, context and/or the prevailing psychology/sociology of different eras. I know that it is in the nature of men, because of the God complex, to always try to pretend that he possesses greater analytical capabilities then he actually does. That's why it doesn't surprise me that people engage in anachronisms all the time, but they should be avoided if possible all the same.

An example of this was a recent controvesy in France about Napoleon and slavery. It seems that he had reversed a revolutionary decree that banned slavery in ~1806, and some people were trying to equate him with black-hating, slaving KKKists. However, most people had forgotten that Napoleon was on very slippery ground, and that he needed the support of the French people and businesses of the French colonies who stood to lose nearly all their wealth because of that decree: Had he not renounced the decree, France would have most probably disintegrated and went bankrupt among all its revolutionary wars. I suppose this is kinda lost on Hampstead liberals of our era obviously who are convinced that the human civilization has been perfect from the get-go, and people who have strayed from "the path" along the way must have surely been possessed by the devil. Out!Baristarim 04:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The Former UN Secretary of the United Nations Human Rights Committee, Dr. Alfred de Zayas,has published an in-depth analysis of how the [UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide applies to Armenian Genocide http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=333] , thus the Pontic Greek Genocide is also not out of reach of the convention according to the highly qualified legal review of Dr. Alfred de Zayas. SpaceBalls 06:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Aha :) Let's put aside the convention for a moment. Can I explain the meaning of the word "relevancy"? Take it to the armenian genocide article pls. The fact that "PGG is also not out of reach of the convention according to .." is your own interpretation. As I said, this is not a courtroom: do not argument to convince others why X means/can mean/should mean Y. See original research. UN Convention doesn't apply to anything before its ratification, because of the principal of non-retroactivity of penal statutes by the way. But it is still not relevant - please do not reply to this. As I said, check WP:OR. Wikipedia is not a forum, we cannot interpret X to mean Y: Y should already be out there, you see what I mean? That's all. Baristarim 06:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Legalese and legalism is another attempt to confuse the issue and misrepresent the facts as reported by victim testimonies, and by eyewitness accounts of third parties. History is not written by lawyers but by historians. The historians who have done in depth research on the subject have come to the conclusion that the events were a genocide without any doubt. Those who are drawing conclusions by relying on others, or have done none or minimal research are the ones who are uncertain or not convinced. Dr. C. Fotiades, a professor of history in Greece, is probably the only historian that has done the most in depth and exhaustive research on the subject, as a result of which he authored a multivolume history on the PGG. The first three of the original volumes are a scientific (methodical, and critical) analysis of the events/sources. The remaining eleven volumes contain documents from the foreign ministry archives of of Europian countries, like, Britain, Russia, Germany, etc., as well as other sources. Unfortunately, they are written in Greek and have not been translated in English yet. We are hoping that this will take place soon so our non-Greek speaking friends can be able to access them. --Rizos01 20:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hope so. Couple of things a) history is not written by lawyers, but historians do not have the right to manipulate legal concepts either. genocide is a legal term b)even that's not very important in any case. The main argument, as you have confirmed, is that: this article is Greek POV. I am sorry to say that, but I am sure that there are also Turkish historians who have made research and concluded that there was a genocide against the Turkish Cypriots. Their POV is as valuable as the Greek POV, not more, not less. You are admitting that most of the research is impartial!!! That's all I have been trying to say. I am not saying Greek POV is not important, but it carries the same weight as Turkish POV per common sense; ergo that's why there needs to be impartial sources. To this day, there are none. Rummel et al are simply fringe historians. If this article depends on a table drawn by a professor in University of Hawaii, then that's not good. Rizo, you are missing the point: we are not here to prove that X is Y: Y should already be out there. We cannot use the handful of eye-witness accounts to prove a thesis: it breaks WP:OR, that's all. People are confusing their beliefs with the amount of information out there. Baristarim 20:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Y already is out there. It is simply your POV that it isn't. Your assertion that the multitude of sources provided here somehow represents "original research" is ridiculous. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 07:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

If Y = Rummel, then I = Santa Claus :) Baristarim 09:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Just coming in to mention another Genocide scholar who affirms Pontic Greek Genocide. The Armenian Studies professor , Dr. James Reid, presented a series of [ http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/hye_sharzhoom/vol27/may06/3_reid_lectures.html Genocide lectures at Fresno State University in California] earlier this year, "Dr. Reid's eloquent lecture discussed how the "Death World," which was created by the perpetrators of the war, influenced the mentality of the Armenian and Pontic Greek survivors. --The 'Death World' and its Influence on Victim Survivors," was given on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 Fresno State University ,California. SpaceBalls 21:40, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Rummell

To repeat my earlier observations is about as reliable as a chocolate fireguard. - Francis Tyers · 22:05, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree (not explicitly discredited for this and very well backed up by third sources), but in any case, what do you think about the rest of the sources so far? Do they suffice for you? I refer interested users to the earlier discussion about sources here. There is a discussion about each and every one right below, titled by each source's name. NikoSilver 11:54, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The other sources are reliable. - Francis Tyers · 12:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources for the title

Insert here verifiable sources and quote how they refer to this event. Keep it brief and easy to distinguish by using bullets(*). Here is NO place for a DISCUSSION of the sources. Open another thread for such a purpose. Wandalstouring 14:18, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the (fourth) attempt. Please check:

Third party academic sources supporting "Genocide"

• Turkey, still struggling to achieve its ninety-five-year-old dream of becoming the beacon of democracy in the Near East, does everything possible to deny its genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian Greeks.
  Cohn Jatz, Colin Tatz (2003). With Intent to Destroy: Reflections on Genocide. Essex: Verso. ISBN 1859845509.

• democide against the Greeks...genocide...347,000 dead
  R. J. Rummel. "Statistics of Democide". Chapter 5, Statistics Of Turkey's Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessmonthday= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

• systematic extermination...annihilation...in a persistent campaign of massacre
  Note: Term "genocide" had not been coined yet.
  Horton, George (1926). The Blight of Asia. Indianapolis: The Bobbs-Merrill Company.

• compared experience to the Holocaust
  Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten (2002). Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt). New Brunswick, New Jersey. p. 213. ISBN 0765801515. {{cite book}}: Text "publisher: Transaction Publishers" ignored (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

• ...So is the Turkish Consul General [alive and well], now complaining to the university administration that the Center of Comparative Genocide Studies, which I direct, has (unfairly?, unwisely?) allowed the Greek community to fund a research unit devoted to the genocide of the Pontian Greeks, by the Turks, after World War I. The Center, founded by me at the end of 1993, has its somewhat clumsy title because the senior professor above, the one who wanted "balance", was a little anxious at the University Council meeting, which has the power to establish Centers, that plain "Genocide Studies" would be a little unbalanced -"You know, a little too, ah, you know..." We know. There is of course, a very strong case for the visibility of "comparative": it allows us to develop a model of gradiations of genocide, to avoid the obvious trap of flattening all genocides, of allowing scholars to get away with blatant misuse of the term when they seek to highlight a wrong by reaching for the ultimate cannon in the armory.
  Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt) By Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten

• series of massacres, pertinent to the Armenian Genocide
  Creating a Modern "Zone of Genocide": The Impact of Nation- and State-Formation on Eastern Anatolia, 1878–1923, by Mark Levene, University of Warwick, © 1998 by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

• ethnic cleansing
  Norman M. Naimark, Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe, Cambridge and London: Harvard University Press, 2001.

Other sources supporting "Genocide"

• Greek recognition
• Cyprus recognition
• Numerous Greek academics
• 6 US states recognition
• 3 NGO's recognition

Check also Talk:Pontic Greek Genocide/Archive 4#Genocide for a comparative analysis of the sources.

Also, these sources are limited to the ones that explicitly call it a genocide. The eyewitness quotes, the documented individual massacres and all other secondary sources are numerous.

Hate to repeat myself, but since you asked... Note: There are others that escape me right now, will add them probably later. Happy new year! NikoSilver 19:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Did I just see "Google" in there?? Was it a typo? Baristarim 05:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, per WP:NCON#Identification of common names using external references and the google tests in my statement. No debate please, it's under "other sources" anyway. NikoSilver 16:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• The conclusion of the armistice with Turkey on the 30th October, 1918, seems to have brought about a temporary cessation of the persecutions of the minorities by the Turks which had gone on all through the war. In the course of those persecutions, it is generally agreed that about 1,500,000 Armenians perished in circumstances of extreme barbarity, and that over 500,000 Greeks were deported, of whom comparatively few survived. The ghastly Armenian persecutions of the early part of the war formed the subject of a British Blue Book as early as 1916, and the almost equally horrible Greek persecutions have been dealt with in several Greek publications (see particularly the proceedings of the third National Assembly in Athens in April 1921). Information regarding the persecutions of the other Christian bodies has not yet been collected. [...] As early as May 1919 reports of renewed persecutions of Armenians and Greeks all over Anatolia and Pontus began to come in.
  [...] Behind all these elements of disorder stands Mustapha kemal.
  Memorandum by Mr. Rendel on Turkish Massacres and Persecutions of Minorities since the Armistice (British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7876)

Critias 21:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Sir: I have the honor to transmit herwith copies of letters from Dr. Mark H. Ward and Mr. F. D. Yowell, members of the personnel of the Near East relief, describing the horrors and atrocities suffered by Greek deportees at the hands of the Turks in Asia Minor; also in reference to the treatment of the Armenian and other Christian elements in that territory, and especially the attitude of the officials of the Turkish Government towards Americans.
  [...] In the Vilayet of Marmouret-ul-Axuz all relief was given in opposition to the wishes of the Government, who did practically everything in its power to prevent any relief to the deportees.
  [...] We have been able to prepare some figures on the deportation of Greeks who were sent from Konia, Afion-Karahissar and the war front and from the entire Black Sea coast and hinterland which apply only after they had reached sivas. Of 30,000 who left Sivas, 5,000 died before reaching Harpoot (one American saw 1,500 bodies on the road between the two places); 3,000 died in Malatia during the winter; 2,000 now (March), remain in Malatia and 20,000 reached Harpoot.
  Of this remaining 20,000, 2000 died in Harpoot during the winter, 3,000 are now scattered in Harpoot Vilayer (Marmouret ul Aziz), as follows: 500 in Eghin, Arabkir and Baker-Maden, 500 Mezre and Harpoot, 1,200 in villages of Harpoot Plain and 500 in Palmoy villages. The trmaining 15,000 were sent on to Diarberkir, en route to Bitlis.
  Of this 15,000, 3,000 died on the way, 1,000 died in Diarbekir, 2,000 remained in Diarbekir and the remaining 9,000 were sent on toward Bitlis.
  [...]Of the entire number of Greeks deported, about two thirds of them were women and children and the main causes of death were, starvation, exposure, typhus, and dysentery. The Turkish authorities were frank in their statements that it was the intention to have all the Greeks die and all of their actions -- their failure to supply any food or clothing -- their strong opposition to relief by the N. E. R. -- their choice of routs, weather, etc. -- concentrations in unhealthful places, and last of all their deliberate choice of destination BITLIS, a place almost totally destroyedm, with no industry and located far up in the mountains, seems to fully bear this statement out.
  All along the route of the deportees, Moslems visit the various groups and take of the women and girls whomever they want for immoral purposes.
  If American aid be withdrawn from the deportees scattered along the places between Sivas and Diarbekir practically all of them will perish and for those who have been sent beyond Diarbekir we see no hope of life whatever.
  Along all the routes taken by the Greeks are strwen the bodies of the dead which are being consumed by dogs, wolves and vultures. The Turks make no effort to bury the Christian dogs, as they call them, and deportees who remain alive have not the strength to bury their dead, even if they were alowed to do so.
  The figures given have been carefully prepared from information gathered by Americans actually in charge of relief of the Greeks and we believe them to be under the number of actual deaths if they err at all.
  Treatment of Christians by Turks (U.S. Archives)

Critias 21:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• " According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation" (page 67) - "It is beyond all question or dispute that the expulsion of the Christian Minorities by Turkey constitutes one of the greatest and most hideous crimes in all history"(page 57) - Bierstadt, Edward Hale. The Great Betrayal; a Survey of the Near East Problem. New York: R. M. McBride & company, 1924.

• " The Armenians are not the only subject people in Turkey which have suffered from this policy of making Turkey exclusively the country of the Turks. The story which I have told about the Armenians I can also tell with certain modifications about the Greeks and tha Syrians. Indeed the Greeks were the first victims of this nationalizing idea." Henry Morgenthau, Sr. "The Murder of a Nation". 1918, (New York: Armenian General Benevolent Union of America, 1974).

• "In January, 1916, the Greek deportations from the Black Sea began.The Greeks came through the city of Marsovan by the thousands, walking for the most part the three days journey through the snow and mud and slush of the winter weather.. Thousands fell by the wayside from exhaustion...always under escort of Turkish gendarmes. Next morning these poor refugees were started on the road and destruction by this treatment was more radical than a straight massacre..." George Horton, "The Blight of Asia" , 1926, The Bobbs-Merill Company,(American Consul General of the United States in the Near East) ---Rizos01 02:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if those accounts are true or not. The question is not the content, it is the title. You are interpreting the sources that you mention to justify the title. Such interpretation is forbidden per WP:OR. That's all. Baristarim 08:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

And what selective interpretation of history btw. Millions of Muslims were expelled from the Balkans between 1900 - 1923, then let's label it the Muslim Genocide (Balkans)? Stop interpreting history anachronistically and in a way that suits you.. Baristarim 08:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Please move your comments to a discussion section. If I am not mistaken this space is reserved only for accounts supporting The Genocide. --Rizos01 18:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Uh, no... This is the RfC. This the talk page for discussing improvements to the article. However, I am not going to post long messages, if that's what you are implying. Baristarim 19:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You guys have no clue of what you are talking about

I have yet to see anyone here having written anything relevant which may suggest some deep knowledge of the Pontian tragedy. Dumping irrelevant materials of atrocities doesn't help the situation either. The Ittihadist decisions are one thing, the nationalists decision, the transition with the renagates to the Kemalistic regime, and the so-called population exchange are all different event.

The Pontian tragedy has little to do with the harsh condition of the minorities under the Ittihadist regimes, even less to do with the Armenian tragedy. This article, first has to be renamed like I have previously suggested and should only cover the Pontian tragedy, only this, other Greek tragedies could be mentioned, but should be treated in other relevant articles where they could fit. It is amasing that while the Smyrna fire, which has publications in the couple of douzens, is in a garbadge state, and seem no any Greek want to take the initiative to work on, and various people all are around this article, dumping stuff after the other on other events, but has yet to show knowing what exactly was the Pontian tragedy. Fad (ix) 06:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be useful if you yourself first get familiar with the Pontian tragedy. FYI the Pontian tragedy consisted mainly of the Genocide (deportations, labor battalions, massacres,etc.), and the Population Exchange. This article is mainly about the Genocide, not the Population Exchange. Also, all of the above accounts and quotes are very relevant, as they are mainly about the Genocide, and are referring to the Pontian Greeks. Where you see the word Greeks it primarily refers to them. The Greeks, and particularly the Greeks of Pontos, just like the Armenians were co-victims of the same Turkish policy of Turkification, whether the masterminds and perpetrators were the Young Turks, or Nationalists/Kemalists. The Pontian Greeks got the brunt of the Turkish Government's brutality and suffered the most victims. Out of approximately 500,000 Greek deaths, aproximately 350,000 were Pontian Greeks. This Genocide took place in an area (Pontos) where no Greek army set foot before these events, and as result there was no reason or excuse for the Turkish government to resort to deportations, murders, and other attrocities. Smyrma was a slightly different issue. Even though there was no reason for the Turks to destroy the city and cause so many victims and suffering, they had an excuse because the Greek Army had landed and occupied the area, and there was a state of war. So, in the future, if you would like to contribute, please make an effort to provide informed and constructive comments. --Rizos01 08:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Read Halo’s work before throwing me stuff.

I will reiterate what I had said previously, both the Armenian and Greek cases were different. It would not be accurate to use the Armenian cases as a support to a Greek genocide.

The camps in the Arabic desert(generally set for the Armenians), irregulars and convicts released from prisons and dragged in the special organization were sent on them. There was a general policy against the Armenian subjects, there was no such policy against the Greeks for obvious reasons. Anatolia was considered by the Turks as their heartland, and Armenians were living there. The Armenians had no nation, where they could leave for to never return unlike the Greeks. The Armenians were the main obstacle of various modernisation plans imposed by the Young-Turks regime, such as the nationalisation of the economy.

There were two main policies against subjects, one against the Armenians, and one against none-Turks(even Turks labelled as anti-Turks) in particular the Christians. There were indeed many Christian communities which had the same fate as the Armenians, particularly the Assyrians, but this genocide part was a component of the Armenian genocide, much like the victimization of the Gypsies in WWII was a component of the Holocaust. In many regions with heavy Armenian population, the Assyrians and Greeks were evicted just like the Armenians, which forced the government to issue an order to not extend the measures taken against the Armenians to other Christians. Inevitably, at the end, after that the Ottoman was defeated in various of their positions, the policy became generalised against other subjects. I remember the memoirs of a Turkish military official anger for not having taken the same decision against the Greeks while they had the occasion. Oh and, the Winter 1916 decision, was not generalised still. Also, it wasn’t really before 1917, by which date the supposed Pontic Greek Republic has started existing maintained by Greek irregulars, that the Ottomans started to single out Greeks at Trabzon. While the Armenians were singled soon during the January 1915, after the Ottoman defeat in the Russian front.

Having said that, the Pontian cases is a particular event, and if this article should survive, it should stand by that event, which IS the Pontian tragedy, not on other crimes perpetrated against the Greeks, this tragedy is mostly the events related in Halo’s book. The range of victims from the official Ottoman statistics provided by Bayur, which includes a figure of Greeks killed during the deportation is presented as the measures taken against the Armenians, and those Greek victims were victims of the Armenian genocide, which does not limit only to the Armenians. For this reason, I proposed at the beginning, that the Assyrian massacres as well as the Greek massacres under the Ittihadists regime and measures should go in the Armenian Genocide article, much like the statistics of various other non-Jewish victims goes in the Holocaust article. Since this is how they are treated in the academia, you will hardly find any work which treats those events specifically; they are mostly and nearly always treated in works relating to the Armenian tragedy.

And then, the Pontus tragedy, is disconnected with those events, it was under another regime, and disconnected with the previous decisions against the Greeks under the Ittihadists. The tragedy of the Greeks under the nationalist forces is to not be merged with those under the Itiihadist forces. Much like the previous and later eviction of Muslims from the Balkans have to be treated in parallel

About the name of the article. I personally think that it should be renamed to 'Pontic Greek tragedy', and the intro continued with wording such as 'sometimes also called genocide.'

If you really want to know what the Pontic tragedy refers to, here I have found an article by Stavros Stavridis, http://www.antibaro.gr/national/stavridis_pontos.htm pay attention to the dates of the events. The same thing covered in Halo'S work. Fad (ix) 18:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Really? Just because he didn't agree with you, you think that his comments were unconstructive? I thought that his comments were very constructive to actually make this article more encyclopedic. He also was able to make a good distinction between seemingly related events. Anyways, most of what you just said above is your interpretation. Have it published by someone like Cambridge University Press first, then we can use it as one of the references. Baristarim 08:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

We all know by now that some people's main concern is, unfortunately, Turkey's image, and not to help shed light onto the real facts, or history. All attempts are to digress and misrepresent the events in question. Under the vail of requesting a supposededly encyclopedic article, they are asking us to agree on renaming it. Their main objective, of course, is to achieve their goal of whitewashing an unfortunate part of Turkish history. It is quite clear that these individuals have no respect for the hundreds of thousands of innocent victims who suffered the worst, or lost their lifes, at no fault of their own. The awful experiences that our parents and grandparents went through are many and varied. Only my immediate family's victims (dead) were 5. My mother's father and uncle were hanged. My father's father died in the labor battalions. My father's two brothers and sister died or were killed during these events. Later on, my father's entire village was burned to the ground with over 300 some women, children, and older folks who were forced into a few homes and burned alive. Those who attempted to flee were shot or killed by various means. My father and another lady were the only survivors as they were out of town. --Rizos01 18:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

BS, I don't bother much of Turkey's image, I don't like people putting intentions on the reasons of my contributions. I have myself criticised Smyrna article, because the majority position is that Nureddedin Pasha ordered the burning of the Greek and Armenian quarter, supported by Turkish sources too, but it seems that Greeks in Wikipedia had found better way in wasting their time fighting over here while the Smyrna fire article is in ruin. The fact of the matter here is that, can you find sufficiant materials relating to 1921-1922 Pontos Greek tragedy, which name it genocide, as being the majority position? This is not about whatever or not it was a genocide, and please don't shout me the Genocide convention, it does fit, but fitting is one thing and the event being called that way is another. Fad (ix) 18:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

First, I would like to make clear that my last comment was not addressed to you. Second, I have read Thea Halo. Third, your seemingly knowledge of the facts is in my judgment your own interpretation of them. Fourth, the reason that the Pontian Greek Genocide does not have the recognition it deserves is because it was smaller than the Armenian in the number of victims. Also, it was because the Greek Government never made it an issue, for various reasons. Some of which are Greece's hasitation to add another issue to the already multiple disputes between the two countries, as well as obligations and commitments to NATO, and the US, etc. These are also the reasons why the international community did not get involved, and as a result not called it a genocide. If it were not for the Armenian Communities efforts, for many years, their genocide would have been unknown too. Fifth, Stavrides aticle is worth reading. Finally, since you are referring me to Thea Halo, here is the title of a recent lecture/speech of hers: "This was Genocide, but the Armeninians were not the only victims". And regarding the lack of reference to the Greek and Assyrian victims in Armenian Genocide books, websites, resolutions of recognition, etc., she said " These co-victims had inhabited the territory of what became Turkey for three millennia. One must ask which is worse: genocidal denial, or being invisible as if one never existed? At least with denial, there is the possibility of debate. The expropriation by a single group of such a monumental evil serves to strip the other, "nameless" victims of that same evil of their rightful place in history - thereby assuring that their genocide is complete". ---Rizos01 19:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The main problem here is not if it constitute genocide, it probably does(my opinion). The main problem is if the title of this article represent the name given to the event. The American Indians were assimilated, killed, evicted, their lands stolen. But thanks to many American 'nationalist' historians, the events aren't called a genocide, even if it does fit the conventions definition for genocide. The admission of genocide is specific to the Holocaust, the Germans are the only people who accept the crimes of genocide perpetrated. While the Armenians were mostly victims under the Ittihadist regime, the Greeks were mostly victims of the nationalist forces. I reiterate that the Pontian Tragedy is mostly what happened in 1921 and the years following it, while the current article mixes various different events under different regimes, this is sure not accurate, since the Greek victims under the Ittihadist regime for the most part were victims of the Armenian genocide, much like the the Assyrians. The words Assyrian Genocide does not represent the Assyrian victims under the Ittihadist regime in the accademia, it represent the massacre and deportation of Assyrians in the 30's in Iraq, Raphael Lemkin who coined the term genocide refers to the Assyrian cases as genocide for the events of the 30's. What I always proposed is to open a section in the Armenian Genocide page, delete the Assyrian Genocide page, or rather change the subject(to relate to the Iraqi event), and in that section treating the Greek and Assyrian victims. The Pontian Tragedy page should only cover the event covered in the Accademia, which is the 20's tragedy of Pontos. This is what should be done ideally to represent the way those subjects are covered in the academia. Fad (ix) 20:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

@Fadix: Thanks for your comment that it probably constitutes a genocide in your opinion. I have the following comments:

• For the American Indians parallel, please refer to #Native Americans vs Pontians and if you find that there are no significant differences, then let's discuss there please.
• The academia generally dodges the issue (see Mark Levene "Historians ... tend to avoid the term genocide to describe them." (analytical discussion here).
• Those who do not dodge it, call it a genocide. See my statement in this RfC and here for sources. NikoSilver 13:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Just as a pre-emptive measure, please let's try to keep our opinions out of the talk page. I know that I am guilty of also doing so in the past, it is this kind of arguments that are likely to draw others, particularly newcomers into unhelpful discussions.

Well, in reply to your second point, I would disagree since "tending to avoid the term genocide" is pretty much the same as saying "well, I don't think that it was a genocide, I could be wrong, but I don't think so as is". It is the same thing as saying it is not a genocide. If I am a bit overweight and someone says "well, most people would tend to avoid the term "fatass" to describe you" - then it is the same thing as saying that they don't think that I am a fatass. There might be a few bits here and there that don't make me slim, but just because I am not 100 percent on "slim" on a scale, that wouldn't make me a fatass either. Whatever particular dodgy elements there might be, that still won't make it a genocide. That's all. So you are basically saying that academia is generally hesitant to label it a genocide, well that just proves my point. And those who do not "dodge it" - call everything a genocide/democide. Rummel considers nearly every colonial war a genocide. Nor does he make a distinction between genocide proper and "cultural genocide", a highly controversial term. Moreover, he doesn't distinguish between wars and genocide either.

On a side note.. The Native American issue that Fadix mentioned. Look, the genocide convention is not a simple piece of ideological paper of the French Revolution - its jurisprudence is extremely complicated. One of the main reasons why Native American killings are not classified as genocide is because most of the Native Americans were killed because of economic reasons. Economic reasons (economic struggles, to be more formal) are specifically outside the genocide convention. It has nothing to do with nationalist American authors. There are as many European academics as Americans. However, you are still likely to see that the majority of the European academics won't consider Native American issue as a genocide, either. Please do not forget that international law is complicated and such historical analysis even more so. It is not academic to jump to conclusions based on some dubious info and confused data.

I find that, in Wikipedia, the areas where there is a great need of academic precision are always in utter despair because many people do not realize nor are able to admit that they do not have the capacity nor the academic background to pass judgments on the case at hand. This is not aimed at someone particular, but in my personal experience as a jurist, I remember people (not on this page) who presented me with the thesis of some law student (and other dubious law papers) as absolute proof that a particular point was true. When I pointed out the mistakes in that thesis and et al, that person simply said "well, it still makes sense" - well of course it does, since without sufficient training on the subject matter, it is too easy to be overwhelmed by a bunch of fancy words and co. Same goes for some silly arguments I see on science pages, particularly ones on evolution et al. Many people go to Google, type "XYZ", find the thesis of some student in Kansas, then come back and say "oh look, I just found the light!" :) Anyways... Baristarim 14:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, avoiding a term does not mean someone disagree, it can mean various things. It can mean that a person does not want to use a term which will leave him in a controversy, it can mean that that person believe that it is irrelevant. There are many factors which could leave someone to avoid a particular term. For instance, I have seen you taking the German resolution regarding the Armenian massacres as not accepting it as genocide, even though the resolution is more aggressive in its language than let say the Canadian resolution which uses the term genocide. For example, the resolution contains harsh words in its section Reasons for the Motion. ‘’ women, children and old people were sent on death marches through the Syrian desert. Those who had not died or been murdered on the way met this fate at the latest when they reached the inhuman camps in the desert near Deir ez Zôr. Massacres were also committed by units specially set up for this purpose.’’ Or words such as ‘’ planned and organized execution of the massacres and deportations.’’ Or such words as ‘’ denies that these atrocities had been well planned and organized and/or that the mass deaths during the resettlement treks and the massacres had been desired by the Ottoman government.’’ The resolution at the beginning tells that the Ottoman actions conducted to the ‘’ almost total annihilation of the Armenians in Anatolia.’’

While you claim the Germans refuse its occurrence as genocide, the words used not only adhere to the genocide convention definition, but also the restrictive definition, defined by some jurists.

Coming to the American Indians, economic motives are excluded, only when the cases could be explained by differences in classes, and not a precipitated action used by one classes against the other which could leave one of the two group to it partial or total destruction. The Sand Creek Massacre in 1864 is one such case, where Texas has actively participated in the destruction of a group. I don’t see the differences of these particular cases, if not of its extent, with the Khmer Rouge crime, which was motivated by classes and economic consideration. The Turkish historian Avioglu himself believe that the destruction of the Armenians was justified by economic considerations, but still uses the term genocide. The economic component has to be the reason of the destruction with other parameters mostly remaining passive for your argument to stick. And yes! I do believe that many historians do not use the term genocide in the American Indian cases with other motives than academic. Europeans were involved there too, so I don’t see how your analogy of the American position with European in terms of position fit here. Take Lewy for example, who refuse the qualification of genocide in the cases of the American Indians, can we claim his decision is academic and only academic? No, the man has justified and excused the crimes of the American Navy in Vietnam, he refuse the qualification of genocide for Rwanda.

Cases like the Sand Creek Massacre are abound, and while legally binding the term genocide could not be applied, because legally you can not sue someone for an act committed before the law. But the term genocide could still be applied for historic consideration. That American Indians legally speaking had fewer rights, much like the Black slave, still permit the current American Indian and Black population to use right charts which were invented after the crime.

Since you are a jurist, I still find surprising that you will see things as black and white. I may continue later, when I see fit. Fad (ix) 19:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Ummm, Levene does call you a "fatass"! More precisely the full quote says "Unlike the Armenian case, in each of these other instances the scope, scale and intensity of the killings was limited, though this does not rule out comparison." — "... I have concentrated here on the [genocidal sequence affecting Armenians and Kurds only], though my approach would be pertinent to the Pontic Greek and Assyrian cases." — "Historians ... tend to avoid the term genocide to describe them." Please check that what he says about the Pontians, he also expands to the Assyrians (see non-disputed, non-tagged, Assyrian Genocide).
• Furthermore, Fadix definitely thinks that probably you are a "fatass" ("it constitute genocide, it probably does(my opinion)").
• Moreover, please stop discrediting or ignoring the rest of the sources on the false perception that since Rummel is included in them and he's supposed to be a genocide-slapper, then the rest are too.
• Finally, please stop flooding the page at every chance you get in order to loose track of the actual talk; and let fresh users (addressed to) respond without having to read repetitive intermingled diatrebes. NikoSilver 14:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out a couple of things in response to one of Fadix's previous comments. First we appreciate his comment that the Pontian Greek experience, in his opinion, probably constitutes a Genocide. However, I disagree with his statement that the content of the article should be solely focused on the events after 1921, and that the massacres and deportations perpetrated on the Greeks prior to 1921 were a consequence of the Armenian Genocide, and therefore be a under the Armenian Genocide article. I disagree, and I base it on the following accounts of third parties who were in Turkey at the time and clearly refer to the events against the Armenians and Greeks prior to 1921 as being independent of each other.

• " The Armenians are not the only subject people in Turkey which have suffered from this policy of making Turkey exclusively the country of the Turks. The story which I have told about the Armenians I can also tell with certain modifications about the Greeks and tha Syrians. Indeed the Greeks were the first victims of this nationalizing idea." Henry Morgenthau, Sr. "The Murder of a Nation". 1918.

• "The conclusion of the armistice with Turkey on the 30th October, 1918, seems to have brought about a temporary cessation of the persecutions of the minorities by the Turks which had gone on all through the war. In the course of those persecutions, it is generally agreed that about 1,500,000 Armenians perished in circumstances of extreme barbarity, and that over 500,000 Greeks were deported, of whom comparatively few survived. The ghastly Armenian persecutions of the early part of the war formed the subject of a British Blue Book as early as 1916, and the almost equally horrible Greek persecutions have been dealt with in several Greek publications (see particularly the proceedings of the third National Assembly in Athens in April 1921). Information regarding the persecutions of the other Christian bodies has not yet been collected. [...] As early as May 1919 reports of renewed persecutions of Armenians and Greeks all over Anatolia and Pontus began to come in.
  [...] Behind all these elements of disorder stands Mustapha kemal.
  Memorandum by Mr. Rendel on Turkish Massacres and Persecutions of Minorities since the Armistice (British Foreign Office Archives, FO 371/7876).

Statistics of Demicide, by R. J. Rummel, is another source that deals with the period prior to 1919 as being part of the Greek Genocide - http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP5.HTM

Reagarding Stavrides article, which I read, in the intro the author clearly states that "This short article will outline the fate of the Pontian Greeks... in the period 1921-1922." In my judgement he chose to deal with this period because it was the worst since the start of the genocide in 1916. Just like the Armenian Genocide whose intensity varied but lasted from 1915 to 1923, with the worst in 1915, so was the Pontian Greek Genocide which lasted from 1916 to 1923, with the worst period after 1919. According to R. J. Rummel, approximately 84,000 perished under the Young Turks(prior to 1919), and 264,000 under the Nationalists/Kemalists (after 1919). --Rizos01 05:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Look Rizos, I think that you are a bit confused about the situation in Turkey between 1918-1923. It was chaos. You cannot simply say "X were killed by Y". I know that this is not relevant, but you seem to be exagerrating the control that Ataturk exercised until 1923.. You are going to say "so?". It is important because genocide is a crime, therefore there has to be clearly identified suspects. A heart attack is not a murder in a similar way. A gang of Y entering a X village and killing its inhabitants is not genocide of X. For it to be genocide, there has to be a command structure that led directly to a generalization of acts, and for a sustained period of time. I still have to see a source that will bring any evidence of such. Fadix, I will try to reply more to you later, however I will be blunt and say that I have the strong impression that you need to read the last paragraph of my last post one more time. Genocide convention is not some sort of cheap lofty declaration of the French Revolution (there were many back in the day). The native American experience was definitely economic, are you crazy? Poor immigrants of Germany et al needed land, where the hell on were they supposed to get it from? Economic comptetition and rules of survival of the fittest led to the Natives' downfall. Couple of measely massacres does not permit the experience of all Natives to be labelled as "genocide", no matter how some people like to style themselves as politically correct or try to show themselves as "cool" ("look, I am a rebel, I think that X was genocide".. "Oh wow, really? Damn you sure must be a know-it-all with a lot of balls to make such a strong statement" - "yeah babe, what did you think?") You can label particular instances, if criteria are met and there are no other factors, as "Castle X Genocide" or "Y Creek Genocide". This is what happens when people like Rummel style themselves as scholars: wars are nearly always economic in nature, and there is a clear difference between a war and a genocide. And no, the reason why the term genocide cannot be applied retroactively legally is because of a fundamental principle of law: "non-retroactivity of penal statutes", not because "you cannot sue them". There is a huge philosophical and social background to that principle. But again, anachronistic speech is a trait of human nature. You can believe any reason as to why scholars do not use the term "genocide" for natives, but I wouldn't be too paranoid and label them "non-academic". Has it occurred to you that maybe it wasn't the case? Human history is built upon wars, inter-group fighting and conquests.

Genocide is something specific + it is a state crime, ergo there needs to be a state who committed it. That is lacking for this case. The only example is one probable march of villagers, the rest are instances of vigilante gangs who raided villages. I am sorry, but same things happened vice versa. That fails one of the main genocide criteria right off the bat: a crime with no suspect out of the probable two (Ottomans and Ankara regime), ergo it must be something else. Sorry, if there ain't no state, there ain't no genocide. Massacres, maybe, genocide, no. You are following the very fringe definition of Rummel on this, if what you said was true, then I can name you thirty genocides that took place in Europe in the last five hundred years. Irish potato famine for example? Most academics do not like to use the word "genocide" retroactively since it can lead to all sorts of anachronisms and confusion of eras/meanings/values. They were killed by the "Kemalists", wtf? What Kemalists? Ataturk only controlled a small strip of land in 1920, and he didn't have full control of the country until late 20s. So fadix, do you have proof that the (X number of Pontic Greeks) were ordered by a state structure to be destroyed, and that insistently for a period of couple of years? If not, it is not genocide, simple... And I wonder how you came to the conclusion that it was as such: You must have access to rare hundred year old documents that nobody else does, or haven't taken a look at the last paragraph of my last post. Baristarim 07:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Your answer is done in a much disorganised fashion; I don’t see why I should read a text to find out that it contains an answer directed at me.

First of, I don’t like to be called crazy, I respected you, do the same. Second of, while you ask me to read the last section of your answer, I’ll ask you to read the genocide convention one more time. Genocide does not request a generalised massacre. It request the elements to be met, all of the 4 major points are met in the cases of the American Indians, when I say American Indians, I generalise, not to have to name every single groups, which obviously you know I am doing. So please stop pulling my legs. Also, please stop assuming on my intentions of labelling the American Indian experience as Genocide. It is not that I am screaming it on every given occasion. I don’t think any editor worried about his reputation would like to be labelled as a rebel. And once you have the time, do tell me how a rebel position is ‘politically correct.’

I will not forgo answering, maybe only this time around. But you are in the wrong, this is not only a matter of opinion, but of the same variables you like to toy with; Mr. X and Y. I may not be the international jurist you are, but as a scientist, I believe I have met with enough problems to resolve that my opinion should be given as much worth as yours, even if I wasn’t; what is interesting here on Wikipedia, maybe for the better or the worst, is that people can not hide behind their credentials, you are what you say, what you provide. As simple as that. So, when you bring economic into the play to dismiss genocide, you could be god for all matters, you should still support what you say. Economic is just one parameter, I can for example claim that the destruction of the European Jewry was economic competition and survival of the fittest, afteral, wasn’t the living space theory of NAZI ideologists such as Rosenberg not drafted on this same evolutionary theory of the fittest and the living space (aka ecological niche)?

Economy is a sausage; you seem to not distinguish economy while the other variables are passive, and economy, while other variables are into play to facilitate the fight of classes. Specifically what happened in the Khmer Rouge regime, exactly what happened in a various cases in America? This has nothing to do with being ‘cool.’ And in other occasions economy wasn’t even at play, like with the so-called Pequots cases. And please, while you discuss with me, don’t throw Rummel at my face. Have you seen me quoting him? What I am trying to say here, is that genocide is not something which happens without reason, it could be motivated by economy, it could be motivated by differences of classes. The prerequisite, in all those cases is a situation of power, and uses of this power and taking advantages of, to destroy in part or in full the other group. When this happens, the decision could have been taken for economic consideration it doesn’t matter much on the qualification of the event. Where economy could matter, is if one group is starving while the other is not, and this starvation led to the destruction in full or in part of the other group, when the other parameters beside economy are passive.

About the particular instances vs the bigger picture, as what you wanted to imply. True, I agree there, but in one cases or the other, there is no mistake in wording. I will not start citing various American Indian cases as genocides; I will simply say American Indian Genocide, which will include those American Indians. The wording is practical by nature, and isn’t wrong, unless you imply something which wasn’t my intention.

What is ironic, is that I wished you would not request explanations for my opinion on the Pontic cases, even if it is the subject of this article.

But, since you have asked, I will tell you why I believe it was genocide. First, the first massive evacuation of the Pontic Greeks happened 2 years before the population exchange. It was illegitimate, second, the Kemalists have decided to send a considerable portion of the population in the camps which were previously set by the Ittihadists to destroy the Armenians. While they knew that not much will survive during this evacuation from the past experience (the Armenians), they took no disposition in that evacuation knowing that most who will be sent in the camps of the Arabian Desert will perish. And this is what happened. Those victims were not victims of the population exchange, and when the decision was taken to evacuate them, the Kemalists knew that where they were sending them, most will perish. Now, your claim regarding a State should carry it out, Jurisprudence now, and I am sure as an international jurist you are aware of, not necessarily. Rwandan Genocide was carried out not by the government but two Hutu Militia Group, while the Kemalists have become as much official in 1921 as the Interhamwe were official controlling a state army in Rwanda. So indeed, the Kemalists could have committed genocide, Rwanda has set Jurisprudence. I will not go on to cover the issue of the criminal officials who were dragged in this to carry out the so-called evacuation order, when they were known previously for their ruthless decisions against the Armenians, recycled under the Kemalistic regime. And you will not find me neither starting to dump endless quotations. I have presented my opinion and said why I believe it was genocide. But my opinion does not matter much, since we are here to write an encyclopaedic article, and this is what really matters. Fad (ix) 18:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

So, I gather you hide behind your alleged malgovernance/revolution/whatever in that period to suggest what? That Greeks were killed by UFOs, or that they killed themselves, or that they were killed by others suffering (eg. Armenians), or that "we didn't have a solid government, so next time we wanna kill en masse, we'll just say it was eg. army generals gone wild"? There is evidence for both regime's intent and structure. You can't walk away with a genocide just because you happen to revolt at the same time! Regarding your "retroactive" comment, then I guess you mean that the Armenian Genocide (1915-1923), the Assyrian Genocide and the Holocaust were "experiences" too? The term "genocide" wasn't coined until 1943, and wasn't adopted into international law until 1951. Are you saying Hitler and his generals have immunity until 1943 or 1951 then? NikoSilver 12:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Heated political debates again? Well there is no reason to be ashamed or hide that a group if people gets killed for their ethnic/religious difference. Although it is cynical, one has to admit that it happens all the time and finds supporters in among nations. So let's get back to work and try to find out how these events leading to the death of so many people of Pontic Greek origin are called. Wandalstouring 18:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Fadix, I didn't call you crazy, it was a figure of speech. I said a "state structure", not a "internationally recognized state" (there can be a state without being internationally recognized :)) Yeah those evil Kemalists, eh? What intent? It is not even clear how many Pontic Greeks there were, and what happened to them in the first place. Fled somewhere else, converted and assimilated? There were also many Greek bands roaming and killing Turkish villagers as well.

And another reason why the Native American case cannot be classified as genocide is the absence of this state structure. Aside from the fact that we are committing some of the biggest possible anachronisms while discussing the case of the natives, let's still take a shot. To this day, there is no proof that neither the Crown of England, governors of England, President or Congress of the United States had the intent to wipe out the Native American race. That itself is enough. Genocide is a specific state crime (state is defined as: territory+people on that territory+an entity who disposes the right of "legitimate force" (as a legal term) and whose de-facto authority extends over that territory and people on that territory). Inter-ethnic strife is a different concept. All I am saying is native american case is very complicated, being over zealous to categorize is not a good thing. However, particular massacres can be classified as genocide I suppose if right conditions are met.

Nikos, what intent and structure? That is completely BS. Greece tried to invade Anatolia for the sake of its "big" idea and Turks fought back, what "intent"? Yeah, there was so much intent that for example that nothing happened to Greeks of Karaman, a city closer to Ankara than Trabzon. Interesting, eh? If Ataturk wanted to wipe out all the Greeks, he would have done so easily. There is still no evidence showing any intent.

As for Holocaust Nikos... Have you noticed why the Jewish people don't call it "Jewish Genocide" so much, and instead use Holocaust and Shoah? Because the word genocide has become degenerated, it is slapped on every damn war and inter-ethnic strife that happens. It has become a common category word that doesn't mean much any more. Thus my question some time ago if there was a specific word for this in Greek. If there was one, it could have been used, and the genocide angle discussed in the text. That was a good faith question to actually solve this issue once and for all.Baristarim 01:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Just debating

To our Turkish and other like-minded friends, how do we explain the total disappearance of the Pontic Greek civilisation that was well under way before 1922? I am not taking sides on the g-word, just trying to answer this question. Politis 19:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

And what happened to the Turkish population of Greece? I think some people don’t realize that this is not a discussion about whether the events described in the article constitute genocide or not, we cannot include our own judgment in the article, as it would be an original research. The title of the article should reflect the view of majority, and I don’t see that most sources use the term Pontic Greek Genocide. I already mentioned two books that described those events in much detail. I will provide more quotes to show how they describe it:

The contest for Anatolia was particularly cruel from mid-1921 onwards. The Greek army killed or put to flight Turkish civilians in the area south of Istanbul before embarking on a fresh march eastwards. Meanwhile in the Black Sea region, hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christians – seen as actual or potential collaborators with the Greeks – were forced to leave their homes and trek over the mountains in conditions which only the hardiest and luckiest survived. The last few weeks before Turkey's final victory over Greece in September 1922 had horrific consequences for the people of western Anatolia. The Greek army, fleeing from central Turkey towards the sea, burned several medium-sized towns, leaving the survivors homeless and hungry. The Turkish victors slaked their thirst for revenge on local Greek Orthodox civilians with no regard for age or gender.

Bruce Clark. Twice a Stranger: The Mass Expulsions that Forged Modern Greece and Turkey. ISBN-10: 0674023684

With its defeat by the Turkish Nationalists, Greece again assumed a major role in modern European ethnic cleansing. In the nineteenth century the rise of Greece had served to initiate ethnic cleansing in a previously multiethnic region. Greek independence brought the flight of Turks from core regions of the new Greek nation-state. With the collapse of Greek power in Turkey in 1922, Greeks became the victims of a new type of ethnic cleansing, one generated not by the dissolution of an old multiethnic empire but by the yearning of a state to expand into a new kind of nationalist empire. Pushing Greek boundaries east into Anatolia, where Greeks made up only a minority, doomed the ancient Hellenic communities of Turkey. Instead of realizing the Megali idea of uniting Greeks through the expansion of the Greek state, Greek nationalists achieved quite the opposite: the union of Greeks through the expulsion and transfer of Greek communities on the eastern coast of the Aegean and the southern coast of the Black Sea. Building a nationalist empire in the age of nationalism ultimately endangered the very nation whose interests generals and political leaders claimed to represent.

Benjamin Lieberman. Terrible Fate: Ethnic Cleansing in the Making of Modern Europe. ISBN-10: 1566636469

Neither of the above sources uses the word “genocide” to describe the events. The second source refers to the event as “ethnic cleansing”, but it applies the same term to the expulsions and killings of Muslim population in Greece and Anatolia. Now if we base the title on our own interpretations, and equate “ethnic cleansing” with “genocide”, we might as well create an article called Morean Turk Genocide, to describe the following event, mentioned by Lieberman as one of the early 19th century examples of ethnic cleansing:

Bag and Baggage: Ethnic Cleansing Begins

Turks fled from the Morean countryside for towns with fortresses. But the fortresses soon became traps for Turkish forces, and Muslim and Jewish civilians there were besieged by Greek rebels. After taking the fortresses of Malvasia and Navarin, Greek forces massacred Turks. Reports of the killing at Navarin especially shocked British Vice Consul Green. When the massacre ended, Greeks left several hundred surviving Turks – “men, women, and children” – to die on a “small island in the middle of the harbour.”

The fall of the Turkish fortress of Tripolitsa in the central Morea on October 5, 1821, brought the single worst massacre of the war. Philhellenes, volunteers from Western Europe who had taken up the popular cause of Greek independence, witnessed the slaughter. A French volunteer described how the Greeks uttered a ululating cry, the “cry of the human tiger, of the man devouring man.” Thomas Gordon, an English Philhellene, reported that the victors, “mad with vindictive rage, spared neither age nor sex – the streets and houses were inundated with blood, and obstructed with heaps of dead bodies.” At least 8,000 Muslims and Jews died at Tripolitsa alone. Gordon was so horrified that he abandoned the Greek cause. Other slaughters of Turks gained less international attention, but massacres of Turks continued into 1822. Estimates of the total number of Muslims killed varied widely: the initial wave of massacres in April 1821 killed 15,000 of the Morea’s Muslims, and the war’s final death toll for Muslims may have exceeded 25,000.

Benjamin Lieberman. Terrible Fate: Ethnic Cleansing in the Making of Modern Europe. ISBN-10: 1566636469

As you can see, the events like this are open for personal interpretations, but we should keep our opinions to ourselves and stick to what the majority of sources say. From what I can see the term “genocide” is not generally used to describe the events to which the article is dedicated. Grandmaster 19:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

In my judgment the above two books are not the most appropriate to support the view that the PGG was not a gemocide, for the following reasons: 1. Publishers Weekly Book Review of "Terrible Fate" by B. Lieberman, states: While Lieberman, a professor of history at Fitchburg State College in Massachusetts, is to be commended for his knowledge of so many cases of ethnically driven violence, he is weaker at setting definitions: what distinguishes peacetime ethnic cleansing, pogroms, genocide and wartime flight? Still, this is a book that will have broad appeal among students of modern Europe and of genocide. 2. Bruce Clark's "Twice a Stranger" is an analysis of the Greek-Turkish population exchange and the effects(pain and trauma) on the people involved. It does not deal with the issue whether the PGG was a genocide or not. --Rizos01 04:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this is an issue we can solve at Wikipedia---people, some of them even academics--have wildly divergent views on the subject, so we can't really proclaim as Wikipedia "yes, it was a genocide" or "no, it wasn't". We can, however, report what everyone has to say, from contemporary chroniclers to modern academics on all sides, to modern governments on all sides. If the issue is instead the title of the article, I'd be open to alternative titles myself if any decent-sounding ones can be suggested. --Delirium 11:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, having read through all the archived discussions of this topic, I agree when you say that it's not the prevailing scholarly view to call these events genocide. This article is unlikely to obtain a neutral POV until the title of the article is changed. Perhaps to massacres, genocide allegations, deportations or exodus as others have suggested before. Lima6 12:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

www.hellenicgenocide.org

If you want to link to this website, then please also add a link to tallarmeniantale.com in the Armenian Genocide article. Khoikhoi 09:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You are free to do so. I 'm not interested in the Armenian Genocide. Mitsos 09:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a previous discussion about that site. The arguments that "saved" it last time were two: 1) that it is written/maintained by a third party (Brazilian Roberto Lopes), 2) it cites a number of academic sources, quotes, testimonies etc. I wouldn't compare it to any sort of other tendentious nationalistic sites (of either side), which is also evident from its modest non-flashy layout and design. The site is down a couple of days now, and I will re-post when it is up again. Please revisit it then and respond (not reverting yet). NikoSilver 12:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Where is that discussion? If you're talking about the website whose earlier version is now at [14], then no, that's the very epitomy of a non-reliable source. No way. And it's not third-party either; it's "© 2001-2003 HEC and Roberto Lopes", where HEC stands for "Hellenic Electronic Center", and it's a project of "Themis" ([15]), "an independent grass-roots project conceived by Hellenes of the Diaspora. [...] The objective of Themis is to protect the Hellenic history, culture and heritage. [...] Additionally, this international grass-roots endeavour also aims to sensitise elected representatives of relevant world legislatures, international organisations and non-governmental organisations on issues relevant to Hellenism and Greece." In other words, a Greek nationalist pressure-group, pure and simple. Again, no way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Ummm, it's got nothing to do with the site you're linking to. When I had checked it, it was completely different from that, and the copyright mark said Roberto Lopes -period. Indeed, no way if it were that, but let's not jump into conclusions while it's anyway off the air, shall we? This Roberto Lopes is a Brazilian who became a philhellen on his own (or at least he says so). NikoSilver 13:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

IMO, Khoikhoi and FPS are correct, and we should not link to this website. I particularly agree with FPS words, in defining it the "the very epitomy of a non-reliable source". That the author is Greek or Brazilian is of hardly any importance, in my view.--Aldux 14:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sure, but only if indeed it is the case. Probably we wouldn't have had this conversation in the first place if the website was up. Memory is not the best advisor in such things, so let's not speculate. In any case I would have no objection to describe the nature of the site as "Greek POV". I repeat that the site *seemed* to follow basic academic reasoning and layout. It may not be the case of course, but for now it doesn't matter anyway. I will check back when it is up again, and will request your advice (naturally). NikoSilver 14:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

IMO this site contains info and pictures that are not presented in the article, since most of the pictures have been removed. This could be interesting. maybe the site is considered biased by non-Greeks and i can understand that, but i suppose we could include it, even if we have to place a note informing the readers about possible POVish statements in it. Since that webpage is not made by a Greek, not is it a .gr page, i find it a bit hypocritic to remove it; this way we open a gate to remove pro-X webpages from the external links of other articles, even if these pages do not come from the X nation, simply because it does not fit our own POV. Hectorian 18:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The site is on-air again. Please review. NikoSilver 19:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, saw it too. I stand by my assessment: definitely unsuitable. No need to even go near sites like that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Cyprus> I am not sure that the Republic of Cyprus has officially recognised the Pontic genocide - to become official, it has to go through parliament, to be debated and then voted on. Perhaps a citation is needed...? Politis 17:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of article title based on the mentioned sources

As far as I can see there is no explicit use of the word genocide for these events. The sources provide information about the destruction of a culture, but not for the use of the word genocide. Destruction of the Pontic Greek culture maybe a possible title although I would suggest the before mentioned titel: "Pontic tragedy". Wandalstouring 19:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Huh? You get cultural destruction and tragedy from: democide against the Greeks...genocide...347,000 dead, systematic extermination...annihilation...in a persistent campaign of massacre, compared experience to the Holocaust, a research unit devoted to the genocide of the Pontian Greeks, series of massacres, pertinent to the Armenian Genocide and ethnic cleansing? How exactly do you do that? NikoSilver 19:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

All that you just said is practically your POV and interpretation. Compared experience to the Holocaust? Give me a break. Research unit? You mean the one that is chaired by an ethnic Greek? Right. Baristarim 15:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Going around in circles, eh? Nikos, every third-party editor has expressed dislike with this title. So, I think it is clear where the concensus is going. Let's not forget about the "COI" argument, either :)) Baristarim 15:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The quotes that you dispute above were said by the ones cited below, and I cite them again because your derogatory comments for those that I highlighted are unfair (the least):

• Turkey, still struggling to achieve its ninety-five-year-old dream of becoming the beacon of democracy in the Near East, does everything possible to deny its genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian Greeks.[1]
• democide against the Greeks...genocide...347,000 dead[2]
• systematic extermination...annihilation...in a persistent campaign of massacre
  Note: Term "genocide" had not been coined yet.[3]
• compared experience to the Holocaust[4]
• series of massacres, pertinent to the Armenian Genocide[5]
• ethnic cleansing[6]
• ...So is the Turkish Consul General [alive and well], now complaining to the university administration that the Center of Comparative Genocide Studies, which I direct, has (unfairly?, unwisely?) allowed the Greek community to fund a research unit devoted to the genocide of the Pontian Greeks, by the Turks, after World War I. The Center, founded by me at the end of 1993, has its somewhat clumsy title because the senior professor above, the one who wanted "balance", was a little anxious at the University Council meeting, which has the power to establish Centers, that plain "Genocide Studies" would be a little unbalanced -"You know, a little too, ah, you know..." We know. There is of course, a very strong case for the visibility of "comparative": it allows us to develop a model of gradiations of genocide, to avoid the obvious trap of flattening all genocides, of allowing scholars to get away with blatant misuse of the term when they seek to highlight a wrong by reaching for the ultimate cannon in the armory.[7] (note: which HE directs has allowed, and also note how nice he puts it for all deniers)

---

[1] Cohn Jatz, Colin Tatz (2003). With Intent to Destroy: Reflections on Genocide. Essex: Verso. ISBN 1859845509.

[2] R. J. Rummel. "Statistics of Democide". Chapter 5, Statistics Of Turkey's Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessmonthday= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

[3] Horton, George (1926). The Blight of Asia. Indianapolis: The Bobbs-Merrill Company.

[4] Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten (2002). Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt). New Brunswick, New Jersey. p. 213. ISBN 0765801515. {{cite book}}: Text "publisher: Transaction Publishers" ignored (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

[5] Creating a Modern "Zone of Genocide": The Impact of Nation- and State-Formation on Eastern Anatolia, 1878–1923, by Mark Levene, University of Warwick, © 1998 by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

[6] Norman M. Naimark, Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe, Cambridge and London: Harvard University Press, 2001.

[7] Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt) By Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten

---

For the n^th time, I also don't like your tone!

I'd appreciate if you could revise your rather unfortunate comments. Thank you. NikoSilver 18:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Rummel is not a good source. Which comment? You mean the one where I said that nearly every third-party editor expressed discontentment with the title? COI, right?

Most of the sources are still shaky - none of them are dedicated research. Please remember that the question is the title, not the content of the article. There is still no work that points out that the Turkish/Ottoman government had the intent to destroy the Greek population. Baristarim 22:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

What about the rest 6? Are they not good too? Describe "shaky". NikoSilver 22:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Take your eyes below to Talk:Pontic Greek Genocide#Source. There is a book title "Black Book: The Tragedy of Pontus, 1914-1922" printed in 1922 in Athens. That is close to the time of events and in Greece and it is detailed. So "Pontic tragedy" is an appropriate term. Any questions?

Remember: We don't discuss what happened, we only discuss how it is called in mainstream English media. Wandalstouring 23:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Some comments

Having just read this article for the first time, I think it has some serious problems. In particular:

1) As others have noted, the title is highly POV. One side calls it a genocide, the other refutes this claim. We should not be in the business of taking sides - it's absolutely counter to what WP:NPOV requires. I suggest changing the title to "Expulsion of the Pontic Greeks" or "Pontic Greek expulsions". (Any other suggestions welcomed!)

2) The article doesn't actually give much information about the events that occurred - where, when, why, who, how many? The quotes at the end are presented without any context. At least half of the article is dedicated to the question of who considers the episode to be genocide. The article as a whole seems to have been written as a guide to the political dispute, rather than a narrative of the actual historical events.

I'm not a partisan on this issue - I'm neither Greek nor Turkish - so hopefully I count as a neutral party here. I'll have a go at rewriting the article to fix the issues I've identified above. -- ChrisO 22:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

As a person who got quite much involved in this article, i would advise u to also read the talk page and archives; but since i acknowledge this would be quite of a task (too many kbs...), i will try to give u some answers in what u posted above, and hope u will take them into account, before an attempt to fix or "fix" by rewriting...

1) A possible title "Expulsion of the Pontic Greeks" is POV, since it expresses only the other side's position. None disputes that something happened to the Pontic Greeks. Turkey calls it "expulsion" and the death tool "natural due to circumstances". this is not a title that would "neutralize" the article. other titles have also been proposed, but were not accepted for similar (or identical) reasons.

2) U are quite right here... more info should be added, but without removing the quotes. Someone before (I guess it was Francis) asked about analytic population figures and list of villages and Greek casualties. I am ready to provide detailed information in English, French or Greek. Hectorian 23:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

But the current title also clearly expresses the POV of the "other side". I am sorry Hectorian, but every single time there is a new title proposed, it is always called POV and rejected by the same people. That is not correct either. Baristarim 15:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The current title has a base to exist: official recognitions, bibliography and external links; and, as i have said, more detailed info exists. A possible side expressing the POV of the "other side" can exist? are there Turkish accounts calling what happened "extermination", "massacres", etc? or maybe the POV of the "other side" is that nothing ever happened? Hectorian 16:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

...in Pontos]]. Nice title, then we can place a {{contradict}} instead of the {{pov-title}}... NikoSilver 16:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Official recognitions by Greece and Cyprus.. Come on.. Eventually there will need to be a different title, with a section which talks about the genocide thesis and recognition as such by those countries. The newer title will have to have a bit larger scope so that it can place things in context. Baristarim 17:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not reduce the significance of the USA states... If a newer title is "intended" to be something that even denies that half of the Pontic Greeks were murdered, I am in the opposite side already... Hectorian 17:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hectorian, please, you know that US states do not mean much - I would say the same thing for any article. This was already pointed out by many non-Turkish editors. Listen, we all know that the main problem is with the title, not the content. There is not an academic concensus that warrants such a title. Why can't we modify the title to expand its scope so that we can include the full history of Ottoman Greek casualties? Baristarim 17:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ottoman Greek casualties? As part of an Ottoman Casualties of World War I series? Thats my two cents. --A.Garnet 17:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Or something like this is what u propose? but this article will not be deleted or moved, since this was not either. If u think that an article named Ottoman Greek casualties can exist, be sure that not only this will be included (but remain as separate article linked in the "See also" section), but also this and this and more... Hectorian 17:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Population exchange is not part of the "casualties", right? Baristarim 17:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

For the record: tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of Greek refugees died during the transfer; drown in the sea, died of diseases (especially malaria), or cause of bad weather conditions during their relocation, etc. Greece saw her population increased by 1/3 in a few months, at a time when the economy had collapsed, and even the cemeteries were not enough...! Not to mention the more than 1 million Greeks (according to Ottoman census-2 million according to Greek estimations of that time) of Asia Minor that are still unaccounted for... All these are "Ottoman Greek casualties", in the sense that the term "casualties" has to do with war and aftermath; the Pontic Greeks were not eliminated cause of any war, but cause the Young Turks wanted to get rid of non-Turkish populations of Anatolia, and thus their elimination started earlier; Greece entered the WWI in 1917, so any link between Greece vs Ottoman Empire during WWI, can be rejected, since at the time of the Pontic Genocide Greece was fighting herself. Hectorian 18:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes but this doesnt have the notability of any of those articles. One can find independent scholarly sources fully dedicated on all those events. This article has yet to produce any. --A.Garnet 17:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

... //Dirak 17:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I tell you what Dirak, since i am obviously wrong and you feel my statement does not even warrant a reply, then i expect your next response to provide me with one dedicated impartial source under this articles present title. I expect that as your next reply, since i am so obviously wrong. --A.Garnet 17:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

See all the sources which have been cited since you first started disputing the title. See all the sources that were cited during both polls, see all sources which have been cited again and again but you have refused to even look at them... //Dirak 17:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Right, thank you, you dont have one. --A.Garnet 17:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Straw man. //Dirak 18:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

One dedicated piece of research, thats all i asked... --A.Garnet 18:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

They have been cited again and again. Perhaps we understand the concept "dedicated piece of research" differently, perhaps you have two measures; one for on other articles and one for here. Who knows... //Dirak 18:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Dedicated piece of research is quite self-explanatory to me. A piece of research dealing with this event, under this name and reaching the same conclusions in this article. I've seen a lot of cute empty remarks, a lot of rhetoric, but no sources! --A.Garnet 18:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, source have been cited. They're on this very page! If a publication dealing exclusively with this is what you're after, then I must ask, how is that relevant by policy? As long as the article is sourced and complies with the majority of independent sources we have (and it does, which is not what can be said for the "TRNC" article) then WP:V is satisfied. Rewriting policies to support your views on each particulat page is the wrong way to go. //Dirak 18:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Alf's point is legitimate, there are no dedicated research that talk about these events from the angle that the title suggests. Baristarim 21:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Not today.

I must ask the Turks posting here to refrain from their usual taunts, at least for today. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 18:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd ask you to apologise for that offensive and racist remark. How dare you characterise all Turks as contributing nothing but "usual taunts", as if we must somehow bear a burden of guilt for Hrant Dinks murder. How dare you suggest i cannot question the credibility of this article on the basis of my ethnic origin. Is this what you resort to when you cannot meet my simple demand for verifiable sources for this article? Despicable. --A.Garnet 18:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Straw man and ad hominem. What is it, logial fallacy's day? //Dirak 18:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalbot? "1"? POINT? KG? Get real... :)) You still cannot bring the source that Alf asked, and I don't remember him ever getting reverted by the VandalBot.. Just a sidenote. Baristarim 21:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry Kekrops, what is going on???? Would you like to further clarify your statement? Or would you like to a good response to go with that? I must ask that you to refrain from those types of inherently racist statements, at least for eternity.. Baristarim 21:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

FWIW I was moved to see the reaction of the Turkish people protesting and waving posters reading "we are all Armenians". It was all over the news here and it was commented very positively. NikoSilver 22:30, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That's why it is a bit annoying you know. I was very sad when I heard the news, and comments like Kekrops' is a bit offending. But I suppose he might have said it in good faith, so it's ok. Well, I apologize if I was a bit aggresive, but that was the only reason. I actually watched parts of the funeral live and most of my family in Istanbul was there... When the news calms down and I find some extra time, I will try to cleanup that article and push it for GA. That would be pretty nice... Baristarim 23:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Pff, double standards. The "souces" Garnet says contradict the genocide position for here say things like "what happened to the Armenians was different". They don't say "it was no genocide". Taking the quote Garnet is citing, you don't arrive at his conclusion unless you really really want to. On the other hand we have indpendent sources saying that "Turkey is denying its genocide of the Pontic Greeks", but for some reason they are held to be no good, I don't get why... //Dirak 23:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Source

I had said above that I can provide a source about actual detailed numbers and villages, but none seemed to "care" enough to ask for... So, I am providing it myself. It was published in 1922 in Athens (some will have to take back the things they had said, implying that the Greeks "suddenly" began to care about the subject). It is called "Black Book: The Tragedy of Pontus, 1914-1922", it is downloadable, written in English and French and can be accessed from here... "Enjoy" Hectorian 19:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I will take a look at it. Thanks.. Baristarim 21:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work. Wandalstouring 23:16, 23 January 2007 (UTC)