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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Shsilver (talk | contribs) at 14:15, 10 January 2024. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

RFC regarding usage of the name Paul Jaquays

CLOSED
☒N Stale. ––FormalDude talk 04:07, 2 April 2022 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


To what degree should the name Paul Jaquays be used in this article? BOZ (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a tabletop and computer game designer and artist who has been active in these industries for over 40 years. This person did the bulk of this work under the name "Paul Jaquays", but nearly a decade ago came out as transgender with a name change to "Jennell Jaquays". Reviewing the prior talk page content beginning in 2011 at Talk:Jennell Jaquays/Archive 1, there have been significant discussions to reach a consensus as to what degree the previous name can or should be used in the article. It seems that the consensus reached was to use it once in the lead and once at the beginning of the biography, and no more after that, at least that is what is currently shown in the article. Because there has been significant dispute over several years, and because it seems like the dispute has resumed again this week, I feel that it is important to hold a wider Request for Comment to reach a proper consensus as to the usage of this name in the article. Please keep in mind that arguments which reference actual Wikipedia policies will hold more weight to the administrator who closes this discussion.

As for me, I can see both sides of the argument. In favor of including the name in the article, common practice for a trans person who was well known under their previous name seems to be to use it sparingly. The best three examples I can think of (who are all more well-known than Jaquays, admittedly) are Caitlyn Jenner, Chaz Bono, and Chelsea Manning, all of which include their previous names in the lead sentence and the infobox, and except for Bono (unless you are counting the name of a film) it is mentioned once briefly early in the bio. On this article we are currently not using the name in the infobox, but it is in the lead and early in the bio.

In favor of removing the name entirely, we have the subject's feelings to consider, and the fact that they have been living as transgender for almost a decade.

But none of these are policy-based arguments, so at this point I will yield the discussion to others and respect whatever decision comes out of this. BOZ (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia:Gender_identity#Common_name, "When a subject changes names as part of coming out as transgender, it is often impossible to continue to use that person's former name without misgendering them and thus causing harm as discussed in #Self-identification and #Transphobia. However, the old name should be kept as a re-direct if it is still a well-known name likely to be searched for by people unaware of the name change." So other than a redirect and a mention of the birth name, I don't see any reason to use the previous name in any other instance. PraiseVivec (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Supposing the current state of the article is as you described, it seems like it's what's recommended at MOS:CHANGEDNAME, which says In the case of transgender and non-binary people, birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable under that name.. Loki (talk) 03:11, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • As above, MOS:CHANGEDNAME covers this pretty well. Clearly notable under that name, and most of the sources will comment on this. The birth name of someone is a notable part of their biography. I'm not sure we should particularly be thinking of someone's feelings, otherwise we would not be NPOV. That said, the article actually doesn't use Jennell all that prominently, either (and a few instances should be removed anyway). Considering she is a LGBT activist, not mentioning (or skirting around her transgenderism) isn't particularly WP:BROAD. I feel more should be added to the personal life section about how the change happened. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:59, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Paul Jaquays" is not notable, only Jaquays' work as author. Per BLP, per undue emphasis, and per MOS:Genderid "If they were notable under the name by which they were credited for the work or other activity, provide it in a parenthetical or footnote on first reference; add more parentheticals or footnotes only if needed to avoid confusion" there is no encyclopedic reason to deadname Ms. Jaquays in the opening line. I don't know why there is continuing debate about this. A redirect already serves anyone who is unaware of her current name. There is no need to list her name in the opening in order to catalog her work; Isaac Asimov, for instance, does not have Paul French listed in the intro despite writing the notable Lucky Starr novels under that name. Unless someone can explain why the same logic does not apply to Isaac Asimov as to Jennell Jaquays, I submit that by Wiki policy "Paul" should be relegated to a parenthetical under her body of work. Pawsplay (talk) 18:58, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't continuing debate, you responded to a discussion from 2019. - Floydian τ ¢ 19:02, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Call for new discussion about DEADNAME observation

As I noted in the RFC above, I don't believe WP:GENDERID is being followed fully in this article. I'd like a new round of discussion and appropriate revisions to the article. Paul Jaquays isn't any more notable than Paul French, just a name that appears in some old credits. Pawsplay (talk) 03:14, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No one is denying or casting aspersions on Ms. Jaquays’ expressed gender (nor should they), so WP:GENDERID is quite satisfied. Your strawman about pen names has no bearing on the subject. Also, you can’t have it both ways: if it’s “just a name that appears in some old credits” then why do you even care? If using that name is no different then identifying Asimov as “Paul French,” then why do you care? I think we both know this is a very different situation from the Asimov pseudonym, and your level of passion betrays your lack of conviction in your own argument. Indrian (talk) 04:01, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and one more thing, the introduction to the Isaac Asimov article does state at the end of the second paragraph (and has since at least 2019, I did not bother looking further back) that “Asimov wrote the Lucky Starr series of juvenile science-fiction novels using the pen name Paul French.” So you did not just present a strawman, you advanced an argument based on a falsehood. Indrian (talk) 03:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I've taken the liberty of refactoring by separating this thread from the January edit request section above. This discussion deserves its own section. BusterD (talk) 03:59, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't be opposed to starting a new RfC. ––FormalDude talk 04:10, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • That would be a complete waste of time. Wikipedia policy is very clear on how this works. If someone does not like the policy, they need to be looking at it on a higher level than this article. No RFC on this page specifically is going to change the policy. Indrian (talk) 09:57, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What are you looking to change? The birth name in the introductory sentence is the only instance of the supposedly life-devolving deadname. This will never be removed in any article about a person whose notability was established prior to their transition. The other instance are all the sources and an external link, which are simply regurgitating the title of the source or link. – Floydian τ ¢ 05:04, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2024

Janell passed away 1/10/2024 according to her wife, Rebecca. Matthewh12 (talk) 10:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://twitter.com/burgerbecky/status/1745019247955181958
"Jennell", not chastising, just correcting.
Be well LagothZanta (talk) 10:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies that I didn't catch that error. Matthewh12 (talk) 10:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • his *husband
102.222.234.230 (talk) 12:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2024 (2)

Jennell Jaquays passed away today, we should edit the dates TheEnoza (talk) 11:07, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no! :o That's so sad. We need a WP:RS to confirm this, which I'm sure will be forthcoming shortly. BOZ (talk) 13:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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