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Talk:Martin McGuinness

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JJThunder1 (talk | contribs) at 09:13, 3 June 2019. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

IRA or PIRA

There is some dispute over the use of the name IRA or PIRA. The Provisional IRA are no more the PIRA and the Official IRA are the OIRA. You either refer to them as the Provisional IRA or the IRA. This has been confirmed to me by a member of Sinn Féin. I note that PIRA is used in some cases to distinguish the group but in this case it is clear that the Provisional IRA is the group refered to and there is no need for the incorrect - PIRA. Some might feel this is a pedanticism of the organisation itself and is not relevant - fair enough! Also, the use of the word "volunteers" was removed. Elsewhere on Wikipedia the term is used. There are inconsistencies. Again, people might feel it is a pedanticism of the group and is POV but calling IRA members "volunteers" is not incorrent. That is what they call themselves & that is what they are. Why shouldn't the term be used? I also do not agree with the piece abve ("Nice example of why..."). What do government papers say about McGuinness? Probably not much we don't already know about it. There is plenty of stuff on McGuinness out there. He's lived much of his life through politics and consequently has been in the public eye. Also, there are 1 or 2 very good histories of the IRA available. McGuinness's role in the organisation is well documented. 02:39, 2 October 2005

Butcher of the Bogside

Shouldn't we include the epithet "Butcher of the Bogside" somewhere in the article? This title has been referenced in many news and media outlets throughout the decades. 75.177.79.101 (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's a catchy alliterative tabloid nickname, but he isn't commonly referred to in this way, so it doesn't meet WP:NCP.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:24, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not it's catchy, alliterative or popularised by tabloids or by broadsheets, I'm not sure that's completely relevant. He's been referred to as that, significantly, particularly locally - as a direct result of his past as being a leader of the IRA in Derry, and for actually having been a butcher in the city. There aren't a great number of Google hits that use the term. However, I wouldn't call the BBC, the Belfast Telegraph, the Herald or the Boston Globe "tabloids" necessarily (I'm not sure about de Volkskrant or the Irish Independent).
It seems significant enough to have been mentioned by Pierce Brosnan's Gerry Adams / Martin Mcguinness mashup in a recent film. --75.177.79.101 (talk) 00:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ernesto Guevara is commonly known as Che Guevara (in fact, he is rarely known as anything else). Some news articles mention the "Butcher of Bogside" tag, such as this BBC article. It is not used as frequently as Che Guevara, but might be worth mentioning in the article with some context. What is the origin of the nickname? Is it because he worked as a butcher's assistant [1] in the early 1970s?--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know about 'Butcher of the Bogside', but the view of Lowry Mathers, widower of Joanne Mathers, victim of the Derry IRA's most notoriously sick, sectarian and inexcusable murder, is notable.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/martin-mcguinness-destroyed-my-family-widowers-raw-fury-over-ira-murder-35412461.html

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/martin-mcguinness-ordered-murder-of-census-worker-fresh-allegations-from-ira-supergrass-raymond-gilmour-29994313.html

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/why-did-the-ira-murder-my-wife-the-census-worker-mr-mcguinness-1-7784112

Martin McGuinness did some great and good things in the name of reconciliation -- once his notoriety made him unable to dominate republicanism in an operational role -- but he also, according to 'reliable sources' in Wikipedia terms, did some frankly appalling things, and he wasn't the bland figure that the article makes him out to be. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Transparent attempt to circumvent consensus

Elizabeth II was added to the infobox at 17:50, 18 July 2018. This is a new addition, and against the consensus at Talk:Martin McGuinness/Archive 2#Monarch/ appointed by. It is claimed there was no consensus for exlusion, but the closer stated

  • There is rough consensus for exclusion of the monarch, largely because the monarch does not appoint the Northern Irish PM and deputy PM. The field is not currently included in the infobox, so no further action is required

Since this is a new addition and [rough] consensus was previously against inclusion, it is up to the editor wishing to include it to gain consensus for inclusion. I have removed the disputed addition accordingly 2A02:C7D:3CAF:D900:5C12:2017:A387:9CF8 (talk) 15:43, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this and the removal of the parameter. @JLo-Watson:, the onus is on you to find consensus for adding the material. If no consensus existed that would be one thing; but the discussion did indeed close in favour exclusion, and that is the satus quo. Cheers, —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 16:55, 20 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the nationality of someone born in NI is British isn't it? At the very least it's Northern Irish? It's definitely not Irish JJThunder1 (talk) 16:17, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're wrong. Please have a read of the Good Friday Agreement. It's kinda key. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just to explain this: "Northern Ireland is part of the UK. However, under the Belfast Agreement, also known as the Good Friday Agreement, people born in Northern Ireland can choose to be British citizens, Irish citizens or both. If they choose to be both British and Irish citizens, this means they have a dual citizenship."[2] But what did Martin McGuinness choose, and is there a source for this?--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that. I could not find a source saying which McGuinness chose, however it is irrelevant. We're talking about nationality here, not citizenship, and as he was born in the UK that makes his nationality British. JJThunder1 (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be at all surprising if he chose Irish citizenship, but I am worried about introducing original research here. I did a web search and could not find any source explicitly stating that he held Irish citizenship. This source says that "The Home Office argues that those born in Northern Ireland are British at birth, regardless of Good Friday Agreement choices and, as a result, as dual nationals." Help on this, please.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:35, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If it is the British government's position that everyone from Northern Ireland is automatically British, this would negate the need for inclusion at all. Template:Infobox person states the nationality field "Should only be used if nationality cannot be inferred from the birthplace". FDW777 (talk) 17:57, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Surely inclusion is necessary, as there is common confusion over the nationality of someone born in Northern Ireland. Furthermore, in the particular case of McGuinness, I think it is clear that his nationality is British and it should say so on this page JJThunder1 (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Under Article 12 of the Irish constitution, only Irish citizens can run for President of Ireland see this. Since McGuinness ran in the 2011 Irish presidential election, that means he had Irish citizenship. Valenciano (talk) 18:17, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, so he has Irish citizenship. But once again, this is a discussion of nationality, not citizenship. As he was born in Northern Ireland, that makes him British JJThunder1 (talk) 20:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't. Drop it. We're not about to get into WP:OR on every NI bio so you can make WP:POINTY edits. WP:NOTHERE. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's interesting that the Home Office has said that it considers a person born in Northern Ireland to have British nationality at birth, regardless of any choice they may subsequently make as a result of the Good Friday Agreement. This is based on the British Nationality Act 1981. The key point of the article here is that the Home Office does not consider that the Good Friday Agreement allows a person born in Northern Ireland to use the Good Friday Agreement to revoke their British citizenship altogether and identify as Irish citizens only. So as far as the Home Office is concerned, Martin McGuinness was always a dual British/Irish national, not an Irish citizen. Where all of this leaves the "nationality" field in the infobox is unclear. As ever with Northern Ireland, the truth is rarely pure and never simple, as the uncontroversially Irish national Oscar Wilde would have said.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mean we can leave it if the general community thinks that best, but it seems kind of contrary to the aims of wikipedia to maintain false information JJThunder1 (talk) 09:13, 3 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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