Talk:Persecution of Uyghurs in China

Why is this article called 'Uyghur genocide'?

Already the lede shows that the labelling of these policies as 'genocide' is highly contested and not at all generally accepted. Yet, by its very choice of title, the article openly endorses the most extreme position on one side, and then, as a result, we have articles elsewhere on Wikipedia again referring to 'the Uyghur genocide' as if it were an undeniable and established fact that there is such a thing, i.e. that the policies do amount to a genocide. This is even used to label individuals who disagree with the view that this description is appropriate - again, a view that is not even close to being universally accepted, as the lede itself admits - as 'Uyghur genocide deniers'. This contradicts WP:NPOV and seems intended to create a new default view rather than to reflect the currently existing range of opinion - in other words, it seems to emanate more from an activist/propagandistic mission than from an encyclopedic one. 87.126.21.225 (talk) 01:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

You can peruse the move logs to understand the discussion that led to the naming of the article, and to the upholding of that name later on. You can find those logs in one of the banners at the top of this talk page. UlyssorZebra (talk) 17:25, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Neutrality is not what is commonly meant as being neutral. It defines its own Neutrality with respect to only what editors consider as reliable sources. For example, if A, B, and C are considered reliable, then the articles will reflect what they say and not take sides amongst them. However, this does not mean Wikipedia is neutral with respect to all sources or information. Say X is considered unreliable by editors, and Y is ignored by (reliable) sources, then Wikipedia will not include those information. CurryCity (talk) 21:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Changes to the FAQ

The FAQ, edited by Red-tailed hawk, has stated since 2021 that: "The current title reflects the consensus established in two separate move discussions (30 June 2020, 1 April 2021) that were created just over three-quarters of a year apart from each other. In these discussions, editors discussed reporting from reliable sources in light of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA, each time establishing a weak affirmative consensus that the title "Uyghur genocide" is an appropriate name for the article."

This sentence in the FAQ makes it seem likes there was a bigger support for the current title than what can be seen by following the two links in the answer. On 30 June 2020 the closing admin didn't even move it at first to the current title and on 1 April 2021 the The result of the move request was "No consensus to move. Weak affirmative consensus to keep where it is."

That's why I propose it be changed from

"each time establishing an affirmative consensus that the title..."

to

each time establishing a weak affirmative consensus that the title...

181.164.245.124 (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Changes to the FAQ 2

I've removed the following question (written and answered by Red-tailed hawk and then reinstated by himself when I deleted it), mainly because it's just clutter at this point since the article is move protected indefinitely since September 2021 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Uyghur+genocide ). But also because, in my opinion, the way it was worded was biased and unprofessional since it implies that anyone who renames the articles does so just because they don't like the title.

FAQ row|index=2|q=Should I try to move the [[Uyghur genocide]] page on my own because I don't like its title?|a=No. '''Do not unilaterally move the page against consensus.'''

181.164.245.124 (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

There is affirmative consensus to have the page where it is. If you would like to move it, open a move request; don't do it unilaterally, because it's fairly disruptive to do that when one knows that any change will be contested. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 21:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The point about full move protection is a strong one, though. I think it's unlikely that any admins will unilaterally move the page, and even less likely that the FAQ would influence such a decision. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

BTW, there is a weak affirmative consensus to leave it as is. Red-tailed misrepresented the consensus reached when writing the FAQ. At the time the misrepresentation didn't matter because there was a one year moratorium regardless. 181.164.245.124 (talk) 14:18, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

There does appear to be a strong consensus again unilateral moves, thats separate from the affirmative consensus to leave it as is. What do you think unilateral move means in this context? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

As for your first statement, I've only clarified that there's a weak affirmative consensus. As for your question "What do you think unilateral move means in this context? " you are either wasting my time by not reading the previous exchanges or you are being sarcastic, either way at this point the first statement is the only one that is relevant.

i.e. the one related to my proposed change:

go from: "each time establishing an affirmative consensus that the title..."

to:

each time establishing a weak affirmative consensus that the title...

181.164.245.124 (talk) 20:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

If you want an honest answer to your question, the reason why the article is titled "Uyghur genocide" is because there are editors who want to state in Wikipedia's authoritative voice that there is a genocide. They know that there's insufficient reliable sourcing for that claim, so they've gone a different route and argued that "Uyghur genocide" is the common name for this subject. It's a clever way of making a claim without having to clear the threshold of establishing that reliable sources agree with the claim. If you press them, they'll claim that they're not making any factual claim with the title, but everyone knows that readers will view it as a factual claim. That's the whole point. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:14, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Any change to the article is obviously very tedious considering that even the FAQ has been coopted by a few users misrepresenting the consensus from the previous discussions.

181.164.245.124 (talk) 16:50, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

First sentence in the lead

Could someone link the previous discussion(s) on the first sentence of the lead? I don't know why the first sentence doesn't start like "The Uyghur genocide is..." (with the term in bold), which is the convention in normal cases. Aintabli (talk) 03:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

The RfC is here. Crudely, it established that we cannot say in WP:VOICE that a genocide is occurring or has occurred, but rather must say (as we do now) that the mistreatment of Uyghurs by the Chinese govt "is often characterized as genocide". As I've said above, I find this exremely anomalous, although I am one of those that think that 'Uyghur genocide' is NOT the COMMONNAME, and that theredore the article is mis-titled.Pincrete (talk) 04:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the RfC. It certainly looks interesting for those (including me) who were not very familiar with previous RfCs on such issue(s). I hope to study them more in order to have an even better understanding of such discussions (and indeed the general topic as well) and in the hope to handle such issue(s) better than before. In any case, as also pointed out in the previous section, there are certainly anomalies in the term, and hope the article can be improved further to address such issue(s) even better (whether the focus should be on the title or the content is another issue). --Wengier (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Will take a look at the RfC, but I believe it is somewhat contradictory that the article doesn't take the conventional direct approach in the first sentence, although it is clearly titled so, and "Uyghur genocide" is visible in bold letters on the infobox. Aintabli (talk) 01:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

As I said, I agree that this is 'contradictory', but for me the name, rather than the opening sentence. is wrong. Pincrete (talk) 06:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Rename

The suggested new name is "Uyghur genocide accusation", just like "Palestinian genocide accusation" WingL (talk) 02:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

That isn't going to fly. The subject of the "Palestinian genocide accusation" IS the accusation/debate of genocide - it isn't mainly about what Israelis have done to Palestinians. This article however is mainly about how China has treated Uyghur, around which any 'genocide' accusation is simply one aspect. Pincrete (talk) 06:26, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Pincrete No. It's not about how China has treated Uyghur. It's only about the accusation of "how China has treated Uyghur" from some western countries. Even most Muslim counties don't believe these accusations. So whether these treatments really exist is still debatable. Simply calling it "Uyghur genocide" is biased and seems that it really happened. But most of countries or UN don't call it "Genocide". Just need to make the subject more neutral. WingL (talk) 01:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Please show that reliable sources call this just an accusatory EvergreenFir (talk) 04:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

That isn't how we work on WP - introducing scepticism in the title. The arguments either way should be within the article. The fact of mistreatment is virtually agreed on in WP:RS, the scale, whether the treatment is justified and whether it should be called genocide are all disputed. As others say, provide the sources, or I'm afraid you are wasting your, and our, time. Pincrete (talk) 06:57, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Just a simple example from BBC report. [1]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037. Even they are funded by UK government, they only used the term "being accused " or "allegations", never confirmed that it's genocide. So, "Uyghur genocide accusation" aren't more netural name for it? If it's still called "Palestinian genocide accusation" even after 5000+ innocent civilians being killed by Israel in only 2 weeks, I don't think "Uyghur genocide" is a proper title of this article (at least China didn't carry out airstrike on Hospital or University). 131.155.141.145 (talk) 17:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

The BBC isn't Govt funded - nor more importantly Govt controlled. I am someone who thinks the article is misnamed, and that 'genocide' is not the usual term for what is happening to the Uyghurs (but that the above suggestion is wholly wrong - and doesn't have a hope-in-hell of being accepted). The fact that almost everyone on the planet (not just the BBC) KNOWS that genocide is unproven, isn't an argument for the change you suggest. WP articles are supposed to be based on WP:COMMONNAME, with a few caveats - ie approximately the name that the reader is most likely to recognise as defining the subject, rather than any 'proven' case. The article itself should outline accusations /claims/ defences/ proofs etc of all key parties, proportionately. The text rather than the title is what is most important and the title merely establishes the topic area. Our article is called the Yeti - not the Alleged yeti.

The number of deaths has almost nothing to do with whether any event is deemed to be genocide, issues like intent define it both in law and academic coverage. Also, that article is about a whole series of accusations covering from 1948 to 2023 - not specific events over a brief-ish period, as here.

Finally WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, basically outlines that what has happened on one article means almost nothing on another article. Pincrete (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

@Pincrete Alright, good point. So you would agree that if I change the article description to "Alleged series of human rights abuses against an ethnic group in Western China" just like that in your Yeti example - "Alleged ape-like creature from Asia"? WingL (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what policy is on short description and even if I agreed, others might not. As it happens, I don't think the HR abuses are alleged, all the details and how widespread they are might be disputed, but mass incarceration of an ethnic group is nigh-on certain. Coercive birth-control fairly certain, other mistreatments less proven/provable. Pincrete (talk) 04:58, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Then why is the 'Palestinian Genocide Accusation' lede not simply named the 'Palestinian Genocide' if it's an issue of framing a topic regardless of validity? The timespan seems irrelevant to the inclusion or exclusion of a qualifier unrelated to a length of time 97.103.129.121 (talk) 09:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Rational answer is because that article is about accusations, it isn't about how Palestinians have been treated. This article is about how Uyghurs have been treated, only indirectly is it about the accusations. I personally think this article should be called "HR abuses against Uyghurs" or similar because calling those abuses 'genocide' is not the WP:COMMONNAME IMO, but the boat has sailed on that discussion. Pincrete (talk) 13:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

To be fair, we already have an article titled "Black genocide in the United States" based on allegations that African-Americans have been subject to genocide, even though the article itself does not state that there is consensus that it is the case. Likewise, this article doesn't actually state there's a scholarly or international consensus that the human rights violations against Uyghurs qualify as genocide and if you look through previous RfCs there is already consensus that we cannot label the events "genocide" as an uncontested fact. That said, keep in mind that the term "genocide" hinges on a specific intent of the perpetrators rather than the existence or severity of mass atrocities, which is why there is clear consensus that the Srebrenica Massacre is a genocide while this is not the case for the Holodomor which claimed many more lives. Anoldsegacount (talk) 11:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources support current name.  // Timothy :: talk  05:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree. — Czello ^(music) 22:15, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

These sources are as reliable as those suggesting there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. 203.186.166.58 (talk) 04:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

It's simply a waste of time trying to change how this article is written. In reality, no many people believe the information provided by western governments and media, which this article is based on. 203.186.166.58 (talk) 04:46, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I just wanted to contribute to this discussion by noting what this article points to in other languages:

German: "Verfolgung und Umerziehung der Uiguren in China seit 2014" (English: Persecution and re-education of the Uighurs in China since 2014) Spanish: "Violaciones_de_derechos_humanos_en_Sinkiang" (English: Human rights violations in Xinjiang) French: "Génocide culturel des Ouïghours" (English: Cultural genocide of the Uyghurs) Korean: "위구르족 집단학살" (English: Uyghur genocide) Italian: "Genocidio culturale degli uiguri" (English: Cultural genocide of the Uyghurs) Russian: "Геноцид уйгуров" (English: Uyghur genocide) Sard: "Genotzìdiu culturale de sos Uiguros" (English: Cultural genocide of the Uyghurs) Vietnamese: "Nạn diệt chủng người Duy Ngô Nhĩ" (English: Genocide of the Uyghur people) Mandarin Chinese: "新疆种族灭绝指控" (English: Xinjiang genocide accusations) Simple English: "Uyghur genocide"

I'm not going to list all 39 of them. I just wanted to point out that there seems to be diversity in the name of the article, but a lot of them have the same "Uyghur genocide" title.JasonMacker (talk) 03:34, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I should also point out that German Wikipedia has a "Rezeptionen, Positionen und Reaktionen zur uigurischen Frage" (English: Receptions, positions and reactions to the Uighur question) article that we don't have here on English Wikipedia. JasonMacker (talk) 03:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Update article introduction (first section) to include latest information

Proposal:

As of 2023, German sinologists Thomas Heberer and Helwig Schmidt-Glintzer report that the situation in Xinjiang is one of a return to "normality": "various camps that emerged during the peak phase of the fight against terror have now largely been dismantled." Police checkpoints are reportedly no longer in use, universal education is now made available, and state-subsidized healthcare is partially available. Additionally, while standard Chinese is the main language of instruction in schools from secondary school onwards, the languages of ethnic minorities are available for study as subjects.

Sources:

https://www.nzz.ch/meinung/xinjiang-china-kampf-gegen-terrorismus-und-separatismus-ld.1753509

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/725494 2600:4040:250A:5700:5C6A:5A81:EBA4:F0F1 (talk) 21:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The infobox on victims says "> 1 million detained", if most of them have been released it should be clarified on there as well. 181.164.245.124 (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

It appears that the NZZ article by Heberer and Schmidt-Glintzer has sparked quite a lot of controversy, according to this article. Anoldsegacount (talk) 10:55, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Chinese version

Have you guys noticed the insane whitewashing on the Chinese version? Shouldn't that be fixed? I'm just thinking that if some Chinese people want information on this subject (with a VPN) and they know Wikipedia is "Western" (I know it's neutral, but for the sake of the argument) doesn't that distort their view even further of the fact that the whole thing is baloney in benefit to the CCP? ChadBroskii (talk) 20:43, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Insane people think others not agreeing with them are insane. 203.186.166.58 (talk) 04:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, our country is in a continous crisis, are you pleased for this reply？ 86A32980X (talk) 16:00, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

This is the English language version of Wikipedia - if you have issues with the Chinese language Wikipedia you should bring up your concerns there.--VViking_TalkEdits 16:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)