Talk:Voiced pharyngeal fricative

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Claimed occurencres

Changed "Many languages claiming to have pharyngeal fricatives or approximants" to "Many languages claimed to ...", since languages, qua abstract entities, presumably do not go around claiming anything. Orcoteuthis 18:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In French?

Doesn't this sound also exist in French (in the pronunciation of "r" or "rr")? Badagnani (talk) 20:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The French sound is Uvular. If a speaker has a pharyngeal realization, it's probably ideolectal.— Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you; can we add a short section in this article describing the differences and why the voiced pharyngeal fricative is not a uvular trill (although they sound quite similar to the English-speaking ear)? To me, they sound the same and was wondering why the French sound wasn't included. Badagnani (talk) 21:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, because this sound isn't anything like the typical French <r>, and should not sound like that even to the English-speaking ear. The sound recording in the article doesn't reflect native pronunciation, which might be why it sounds like that to you. A common mistake that non-native speakers/learners of this sound make is using a more velar or uvular place of articulation. — Zerida ☥ 06:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing wrong with putting sourced information about the accoustical properties of this or other sounds on Wikipedia. But this is sourced information, not original research about how it sounds like other similar consonants to English speakers. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 06:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source for the claim that a native-spoken voiced pharyngeal fricative sounds like a uvular fricative to English speakers? — Zerida ☥ 06:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I pronounce them about the same and it seems to me they're pronounced in a similar way. Badagnani (talk) 06:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know of no source that makes that argument. Even if sources like those used at non-native pronunciations of English can be found that argue that English speakers have difficulty with such sounds, it's still a POV issue here. That's why I'd argue against it. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion is irrelevant. (see the topic below).--AMSA83 19:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMSA83 (talk • contribs)

Sound sample and article do not match!!!!

The sound sample is more like a voiced velar fricative (associated with the Arabic letter ghain غ) than the sound the article talks about (one associated with the Arabic letter 'ain ع). The dotting difference between the two Arabic letters may have brought about the error. A new sound sample may be needed. --AMSA83 22:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the sample with one I recorded.-- AMSA83 19:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMSA83 (talk • contribs)

Does the sound really not occur at all in Arabic?

The sound sample sounds exactly like how I hear all Levantine and Egyptian Arabic speakers realize ayn in MSA. It sounds deeper than a typical realization in Eastern urban dialects, but even then I can't say I have ever heard a stop in anyone's realization of ayn, I mean yeah it is certainly some kind of approximant, but a stop? I am sure the source for this probably has its reasons for describing the sound as a pharyngealized stop, but is it a majority opinion? And in all cases, shouldn't Arabic still be in the table with the note at the end kept for clarification and a reference to the Arabic phonology page? I will wait a couple of days to see what everyone thinks, if I don't hear anything I will add an Arabic line to the table labeling it (Standard Arabic and some dialects) and refer to the Arabic phonology page. Cheers --Karkaron (talk) 23:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was asked this a few months ago on my talk page. The long and the short of it is that because earlier sources could not make a distinction between pharyngeal and epiglottal or between a pharyngeal fricative and pharyngealized glottal stop, earlier accounts are suspect. More recent accounts will generally base the description of Arabic sounds on earlier accounts so that the only thing we can really accept is a source that lays it out saying "this is what so-and-so says about pharyngeal consonants being epiglottal and our phonetic study shows that in this dialect it is truly pharyngeal." — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What dialects of Arabic does the source study? I am particularly concerned about the way most Arabs pronounce the sound in MSA, to me it matches the sound sample here perfectly. Is there a sound sample for what the true Arabic sound is? But if Arabic in general, standard Arabic in particular doesn't have a plain pharyngeal, does that mean it isn't found on the IPA chart? What amount of diactricalization is needed to represent it? And most importantly, does this mean that all IPA transcriptions of Arabic words on Wikipedia should be corrected? Moreover since the survival of this sound in Hebrew is restricted to dialects with strong contact with Arabic, does this also extend to Hebrew? This is really interesting, I'll try to check out the reference.

--Karkaron (talk) 13:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]