Documentation

Usage

The template should be placed at the bottom of the article before the Categories and interwiki language links, so that other editors will always know where to find it. Furthermore, future implementations may treat it differently in different site themes, and placing it in a standard location will make this easier.

Copy this blank version to use:

{{coor title dms|deg|min|sec|NS|deg|min|sec|EW|optional}}

Replace the first occurrences of deg, min, and sec with the degree, minute, and second of the North-South component of the coordinates, and the second occurrences with the same for the East-West component. NS and EW should each be replaced with one or the other of N or S, and E or W. The optional can be any type:, region:, or scale: parameters that are recognised by the map server (such as the popular type:city and type:landmark options. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Parameters for a comprehensive list).

Other templates in this family

{{coor title d}}
{{coor title dm}}

Discussion

Koordinate Artikel

Note: currently the link is exactly the same as that used in de:Template:Koordinate Artikel. This should be changed to the link(s) used in our own Template:Coordinates. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind—it's the same link for both. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Very nice. Is there a way to make the parameters more exact, similar to Template:Coordinates? - Cybjorg 05:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Done! It makes it look awful and terribly long with no parameters, but it looks good when it's used. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to keep changing it, but the format of {{coor dms}} is much nicer to use and read and also allows for an optional type: argument that can change the scale of the resulting map. — Saxifrage ✎ 07:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

top: -0.5em

Does that work for all browsers? _→AzaToth 12:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but it should if their CSS support isn't badly broken. It works in Firefox and Safari on Mac.

However, I just noticed a different problem: the "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running" banner changes the spacing between the top of the page and the article title, leaving a big gap under the coordinates for users who are not logged in. Anyone know if this layout is long-term or temporary? — Saxifrage ✎ 18:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I like this template a lot--and it actually looks good in both FF 1.5 and IE 6 on my system (my screen is set at 125 dpi so things usually look a little different). The only problem is that the coordinates are crammed right up under the "continued donations" text when I'm logged out, as Saxifrage pointed out. ~MDD 46 96 00:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Someone else pointed out that it breaks in anything but the Monobook skin, too. So, that leaves us having to still get a Developer to put the necessary CSS in Monobook.css before this can be widely used. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Point?

I don't see how linking co-ordinates inline isn't sufficient. The heading area is increasingly occupied by other symbols, and this template simply conflicts with them. Has a proposal for its use actually been made somewhere?--cj | talk 08:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's been made at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Coordinates at the top of the article. The inspiration comes from the Dutch, Portuguese, and German Wikipedias (see de:New York City or de:Kaffee Alt Wien for example), where it has been adopted as the standard. As for conflicting with symbols, the placement should give those room. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added a banner that says the use of this template is disputed to the noincluded part of the template page. (I couldn't find any existing banner template for "experimental template" or anything more appropriate.) — Saxifrage ✎ 09:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me to the discussion. I was aware of its use on the German-language Wikipedia at least.--cj | talk 01:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there a degrees and minutes only option?

It seems rather superfluous for some locations, such as cities, to include seconds in the coordinate header - in effect you're pinpointing one location rather than the city itself: 1 minute of arc latitude corresponds to around 1.85km, and one second to around 30m... — SteveRwanda 08:43, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Since it's still only an experimental template, the corresponding degree and degree-minute versions haven't been made. They could easily be created though, if there was demand. — Saxifrage ✎ 18:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Swiss town would need the dm version. For now, I added "0" for seconds. -- User:Docu

It was my understanding that this was temporary and experimental until an admin made the necessary fixes to common.css, monobook.css, et alia. I'd suggested the family {{title d}}, {{title dm}}, and {{title dms}} some months ago. I didn't think folks were widely using this experimental version yet.

--William Allen Simpson 11:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Featured article star compatibility

I've rolled up a version using {{qif}} and {{booleq}} that allows you to specify whether the article containing the template also has the featured article star (allowing the coordinates to be positioned a little further from the right if necessary). Check out User:Locke Cole/Template:CoorHeader. Also check out User talk:Locke Cole/Template:CoorHeader (edit the talk page and comment/uncomment examples to see the effect of the new {{{fa}}} variable). If this is acceptable, feel free to copy it in (or hack away at it). By the way, it seems the optimal spacing from the right edge also happens to be 1.5em (with no featured article star anyways). When the {{{fa}}} variable is set to true, then the spacing from the right edge is set to 30px. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

This looks very useful, thanks. While the template remains broken in non-Monobook skins, though, I'm not doing any active development on it. I'd like to see the necessary CSS added to Monobook.css so we can start using and improving the template in earnest. — Saxifrage ✎ 12:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem with placement with Cologne Blue skin

In this skin the coordinates are currently placed in the top blue border. -- User:Docu

Thanks for the feedback. We're aware of the problem and it's currently preventing the template from shedding its "experimental" status. If it bothers you, feel free to remove the template from articles you work on. — Saxifrage ✎ 12:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

WOAH! There are now over 1,100 articles using this! That wasn't supposed to happen! Who's doing it? Infobox? If it's in an infobox, it shouldn't be in the Header, too.

--William Allen Simpson 13:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Both above and below (interferes with interwiki links on Detroit, Michigan) the line look bad in Cologne Blue. But, so do the {{titled-click}} used for featured article and spoken wikipedia.

--William Allen Simpson 23:57, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

So, I tried Nostalgia. The Wikipedia globe image is on the right. All three templates interfere (in the middle of the globe).

--William Allen Simpson 00:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

So, I tried Classic. Smack dab across the Go Search buttons.

--William Allen Simpson 00:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Not too bad in Chick and Simple. Definitely has to be below the line in those, though, as there isn't much room above the line with the bigger font, barely room for the little featured article image on longer titles.

--William Allen Simpson 00:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

try placement below the line

In monobook, just below the title line it says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" left justified. Could we try this right justified in the same place? That would avoid the justification problem with {{featured article}}.

--William Allen Simpson 13:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. It's different from de, es, and nl, but it looks fine. I wonder how those Wikipediæ use the FA star, and how they handle it? Anyway, I've gone ahead and changed the template. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Alas, it runs into another problem: the {{Spoken Wikipedia}} template places the audio link right below the horizonal rule in the same vertical position as the FA star. See Beverage can stove for an example with both. I'll leave the changed template as is for now though, since it is experimental still after all. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

--William Allen Simpson 23:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating—the {{Spoken Wikipedia}} and {{featured article}} templates both use in-template CSS for positioning, so they're in rather dumb places for all skins other than Monobook. I could read this two ways: either there is precedent for ignoring other skins by the administration and we can just start using this template, or (less WP:POINT violating) there is a strong argument for having the site-wide CSS updated for this template and those two all at once. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The latter option sounds much better. Would that mean the coorheader and the spoken wiki would automatically align themselves correctly with no need for |fa| or other nuisances?

Unfortunately, no. Because they're in separate parts of the page, there's no way to make them "automagically" aware of eachothers existence to allow for that kind of automatic alignment, even if the CSS is adopted into Monobook.css. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, despite this being an experimental template, it seems to be becoming widespread. A temporary solution to the above problem needs to be found quite quickly, since at present there are articles with the coordinates and spoken wiki superimposed. — SteveRwanda 07:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I've moved the right of the template over a bit to leave space. You don't really notice it when there's no Spoken Wikipedia icon there, and it leaves enough space when one is there. — Saxifrage ✎ 08:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Duplicate or replace

Is this coordinate header meant to duplicate or replace the coordinates found in infoboxes, such as city articles like Hudson's Hope, British Columbia or Omaha, Nebraska? --maclean25 05:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

It's meant to complement the in-line coordinates. Some articles warrant the coordinates in the text of the article or in an infobox, some don't, but all articles about locations can use coordinates. This template (as proposed—it's not policy or part of WP:MOS yet) gives another way to incorporate coordinates into an article independently of how coordinates are dealt with in the article's body. And it looks nifty. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

d, dm, and dms versions

I'm going to create alternative versions of this template that format the coordinates the way {{coor d}} and {{coor dm}} do since people have asked about those. I'm really not sure if this template will eventually gain popular support, but lacking those options can only frustrate potential supporters for it as a standard so we might as well have them.

I'm going to use the naming scheme proposed by William Allen Simpson above, but slightly modified to get "coor" in there: {{coor title d}}, {{coor title dm}}, and {{coor title dms}}. I'll be moving this template to {{coor title dms}} in order to standardise them; however, using {{coorHeader}} will still work since it will remain as a redirect. (Possibly in the future it should be deleted to keep things clean, but we can worry about getting a bot to do the replacements much, much later.) I'll update here when I've got them all made. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. I think they're all working. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I wish you'd used the shorter {{title d}}, since "coor" isn't important in and of itself, and is someday scheduled to be replaced by "geo". Easy enough to replace later, as this is merely experimental.

I think this is a matter of taste: a template that doesn't try to describe its function in its name is unappealing to me. A further consideration is that a "title" family of templates could hypothetically exist for some entirely unrelated purpose, and having it in use or previously used for geographical coordinates would be messy. Better, I thought, to have these "temporary" templates named such that they stay out of the way of other projects. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, I firmly disagree with putting these templates at the bottom of the edit. It should be at the top. When there are infoboxen, they are also at the top, and keeping the values coordinated will be easier when they are near each other.

I'm undecided on this point. The argument for having at the bottom is that, in non-Monobook skins, the placement of the coordinates may or may not be customised with CSS and therefore they should appear in a place where their appearance in-line is not disruptive to the article (this is how de: does it). The argument against it you've already given, and the technical implication being that the placement has to be customised in the CSS of all skins, or made invisible in skins that don't have custom CSS written for the template. Making them invisible (so as not to disrupt the article or page layout) is... well, I'm not sure if that's a good or bad idea. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Finally, the Usage should be on the Talk page, as most other templates. Changing such wording will cause a massive database update each time, although no changes to the actual inclusion and display. I'm going to make that change right away.

--William Allen Simpson 13:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The Usage should probably be on the Talk page, yes. I'd originally thought that it wouldn't be used very much so database updates wouldn't be a problem... obviously I failed to reconsider this assumption! — Saxifrage ✎ 23:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Further problems with the placement?

I think moving the location of the coordinates below the line was a smart move. However, I think there is still one problem. The "Spoken article" (example: George Mason University) might conflict with this template. Tell me what you think. Sean WI 19:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Fixed a few days ago, at "08:39, 27 March 2006" above. Is it not working?

--William Allen Simpson 22:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Yup, probably should have looked a little more closely, eh? :-P Sean WI 22:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

template at top

My thought is that we want the template at the top for easy edits. The bonus, on pages where the special CSS doesn't (yet) exist, the content will display just under the Title, but on the left instead of the right. Best of both worlds!

--William Allen Simpson 02:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I think, stylistically, that many people will object to that strenuously. Consider that it will then be in the leader, at normal size and font, and the leader is held to very high standards and expectations by most editors. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Right now, the {{coor dm}} is usually in the lede, in parentheses right after the name. This would be very easy to change, just moving it up a line or two, and adding title in the template call.

--William Allen Simpson 03:32, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I expect many editors will consider an in-line usage integrated with the prose (the current method with the {{coor}} family of templates) to be much preferable to having it appear as the first line, alone, in the leader. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

This would only apply where the in-line was changed. There's no point in both in-line in lede and a template at the bottom that sometimes shows up under the title...

--William Allen Simpson 04:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

So, I tried it at the top of Detroit, Michigan, and just noticed (after saving) that the coordinates aren't the same as the ones in the {{Infobox City}}. So, a good reason to have at top.

But, why have it at all? Couldn't Infobox City just invoke this template, too? That would ensure the values are the same. It does mean removing it from most of the test pages so far.
It's already been added to {{Infobox Swiss town}}.

--William Allen Simpson 03:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Having it in the infoboxes would be ideal, yes. I think a standard rule for where to place it where there isn't an infobox is necessary though. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Not possible as written for Canadian cities (the {{coor}} template is passed as the parameter), while Infobox City is very obscure, and doesn't use {{coor}}. Well, I don't particularly like it at the bottom, but that's where it is for now, and it doesn't hurt anything. I just don't think it's ideal for editting or display.

--William Allen Simpson 04:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

breaks the design

..this nasty template is around so long and still breaks the design. I would vote for disable the template until this is fixed. On every page that uses infobox city this template nearly makes my search field unusable. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Then you must be using Classic skin. Try Monobook.

--William Allen Simpson 15:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That's an unacceptable solution. We don't obsolete a skin because this template is broken. Please work to fix the template so it works in all skins. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:12 Z

It has been fixed so it will only be positioned there on Monobook. For other skins, it currently shows inline. --cesarb 19:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

please revert to absolute position

~~the changes made here by User:CesarB completely loose the purpose of this template, please change back to allowing absolute position.~~ Qyd^(talk)18:39, 1 April 2006 (UTC);

Fixed with refresh. Qyd^(talk)18:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Visual appearance

I'm using monobook skin:

Bold emphasis and capitalization for the word "coordinates" is unnecessary. The template stands out sufficiently by its position on the page, and the word coordinates is obviously a label for the actual coordinates. As a simple label, there's no need for for capitalization.
While logged out:
- In Safari 2.0.3, Firefox/Mac 1.5.0.1 and Opera/Mac 8.5.2, the template appears above the page title's rule, floating about three pixels above the baseline of the page title.
- In MSIE 6, it appears above the line, about one pixel above the baseline.
While logged in:
- In Safari and MSIE, the template appears below the page title's rule, with its baseline aligned precisely to that of the tag line "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia".
- In Firefox and Opera, the template is one pixel high
Changing font size seems to change up the alignment in all browsers except Opera.
In all four browsers, it appears to be set in about 18 pixels from the right edge of the title (from the end of the rule).

[updated positioning details —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 23:44 Z]

I'll remove the bold emphasis and capitalization; hopefully no one objects.

The best place for this template is above the rule, so that the coordinates are associated with the actual article, rather than with Wikipedia's tag line.

Since it is right-aligned, it should be set flush with the right edge of the title. If this space is intentionally left blank to allow space for the star in {{featured article}}, then I suggest that the function of these templates be combined into one template ({{heading supplement}}?) so they can co-exist peacefully. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:42 Z

By the way, in all four browsers, the featured article star appears about a full 1.5 lines above this template, so there appears to be no conflict. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 18:52 Z

I disagree about the capitalization. It looks better with a uppercase first letter. --cesarb 19:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll change it back if you insist then, but first let my try to convince you:

Capitalization serves to draw the eye to the beginning of a small typographical unit, such as a heading, sentence, bullet point, or sentence fragment
This is not a heading or a sentence, just a simple label for the coordinate figures
This label already attracts a lot of attention by its position on the page
Uncapitalized, the flat-topped shape of the word has a cleaner look, especially when it appears above the rule (although this may not be the case in your browser; see above)

If you're not convinced, restore the capital c, or let me know and I'll do it. —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 19:10 Z

Taking no position on the "C", "c", or otherwise. Disagree with Mzajac about appearance.

Viewing Calgary, Alberta,

Using Firefox Mac 1.5.0.1, and logged in, the template appears exactly where it's been the past week, lining up almost exactly with the "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" on the other side. Might be a smidgen below.

Using Safari 1.3.2, and not logged in, the template appears above the rule. The head is much taller, and the phrase "Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running!" shows up (it's not there when logged in).

So, the problem is that the heading changes. Somehow, this needs to float with the headings. And it should stay below the rule, there's no room above the rule, we've already discussed this.

--William Allen Simpson 20:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Verified the same with Firefox not logged in.

As to the location of featured article, it would help the rest of us for Mzajac to actually read the Talk. We've already discussed that, and it's the Spoken Wikipedia that we're avoiding by the shift left.

My guess is, good enough. It matches what other *pedia are doing in form. Need to get the other skins updated so that they work, too.

--William Allen Simpson 20:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is room above the rule. We just moved it below arbitrarily as a "let's try this" experiment. Even so, it has to leave room the {{Spoken Wikipedia}} icon.

As for having it float with the title, this is technically impossible as a template without significantly changing the way CSS is handled by MediaWiki (i.e., it would have to send different stylesheets depending on whether the user is logged in or not). — Saxifrage ✎ 21:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

It's as impossible as making the Main Page title invisible. --cesarb 22:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Then, this is about as close to perfect as we'll get. It will appear just below the line when logged in, and just above when browsing. The (other) problem with just above is long page titles, fundraising notices, etc. But by positioning where it is, we're fairly sure we avoid those!

--William Allen Simpson 22:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm amused—I didn't notice that the "Main Page" title had been excised. Still, it's actually more difficult than that trick: it would require detection of the appearance of both the "donations" text and the coordinates template at the same time, something that can only be done in MediaWiki, not CSS. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:55, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't usually look at the Main Page (having bookmarked login long ago), so I didn't see a thing.... Sorry I missed it.

--William Allen Simpson 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would argue for it remaining a capital C. Every other small typographical element in the interface begins with a capital and having just one be different is inconsistent. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Visual appearance redux

Sorry about my confusion.

I didn't realize that this template displayed differently when logged out, due to the fact that the site notice pushes the main heading down, but does not appear to logged-in users. I've updated the details above.

I did actually scan through the entire discussion before commenting, but the intent of the current template design is not obvious, and is further obscured by the fact that it seemed to appear nicely aligned above the line in the majority of my (logged-out) browsers, and I assumed that the exception (logged-in Safari) was the bug in the template.

I'm surprised that this CSS was added to monobook.css, because the current state of this template's positioning (as well as {{featured article}}'s and {{spoken Wikipedia}}'s) is not quite satisfactory. Is someone still working on fixing the problems?

Can someone point out any examples where all three of these absolutely-positioned templates appear on one page? I notice that this template and {{spoken Wikipedia}} are positioned using ems in monobook.css, with text-align:right and float:right. But {{featured article}} is positioned using pixels with inline CSS, and right:0;. Shouldn't they all be positioned consistently to at least get consistent results with different browsers and users' font sizes? —Michael Z. 2006-04-01 23:44 Z

Why yes, they should all use the same technique, and when they are put into the CSS each with their own id=, that's a good idea. But not an issue for us, it was hard enough (something like a year) to get this implemented. Unless you are willing to take it on? Don't forget, the others have the same problem with several skins as we do/did. The FA and SW appear right on top of the globe in Nostalgia, and overlay Cologne Blue.

My guess is that the most used are Cologne Blue and Classic, as those gave feedback. I think that Saxifrage is working on it. I'd offer to try my hand, but I've a family birthday gathering sometime tomorrow, and have to get some sleep sometime after all this April 1 watching.

--William Allen Simpson 01:02, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to response to the nasty comment about "not quite satisfactory" and "problems". You admitted in your revised analysis above that it was perfectly aligned in several browsers, and one (1) pixel off in others. How much more satisfactory do you want? Man, I think Saxifrage deserves kudos, praise, and thanks! A job well done!

--William Allen Simpson 01:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

No offence meant, and I'm sorry for sounding nasty. The problems are the inconsistency caused by the introduction of the donation notice only into non-logged in users' pages. Too bad it works that way, but offhand, I don't see a way to get around it, short of altering the HTML in the page template, or using Javascript to alter the DOM. Kudos for designing and implementing this, it looks great as intended, but the lack of control is not so good—it could break in other unpredictable ways if and when the site notice is changed by the powers that be.

There is also the few-pixel inconsistency between browsers, which I think may be related to line-height, font-size, or ems vs. pixel units, but that is minor, and it may be possible to work around it.

FA and SW positioning CSS definitely belongs in monobook.css, so they should just appear inline at the bottom in other skins, until someone adds support for those skins. I know some CSS and have admin access; can I help? —Michael Z. 2006-04-02 03:51 Z

External to internal

Is it possible to implement the geo-coor feature inside Wikipedia? I'm thinking of something like Special:Booksources right now, and I think having it inside Wikipedia would be more reliable. What's your thoughts on this? -- WB 21:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The external website is a test site, with the intention of bringing it into Wikipedia eventually. See the Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates project page. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Seems like it will be based on Google Earth? I would think World Wind is a better way to go since it's open-source, etc. -- WB 23:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)