User talk:Phlegm Rooster

Azerbaijan

There will be a more specific citation soon enough, stay tuned or better still, help out by going to the GEOnames site entering the search data find the NameGUID for the place and use the template: GEOnet2 with the NameGUID as the parameter and voila you have a direct cite to the place. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's the first level source. Why don't you trust it? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Up to 2 km is probably acceptable: pick geographic coordinates for Los Angeles, and there will be places inside the city limits 50 km away - even if you get the precise coordinates for the city hall - the city hall is not the city (despite what the politicos may think) - the problem is even worse when people add coords to subnational entities and even countries. As for moving data from various sources en masse, that's an interesting issue - given the inherent notability of settlements, I don't see moving that over. If someone were to propose moving the contents of an out-of-copyright "Who's Who", which may have different notability standards than we do, that may be problematic. But that's a bridge that can be crossed if ever proposed. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does google say? If you did the same experiment for a US place (take a city or a county) sourced to the US government's sources, would the result be any different (i.e., ambiguity as to what is in the place or out of it?). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 01:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the US, you need to follow the links as in the template gnis, but the result I expect is the same - many towns in the US run into each other or have embedded unincorporated areas - San Jose, California is a perfect example - it's huge so something truncated to the nearest minute or second doesn't cover the city. There are about 100 two-, three-, and up to 100-block areas that are technically outside of city limits but I doubt that google or anything but perhaps the city's or county's website would give you online info about each of those enclaves. Same is likely true in any US place as in an Azerbaijani one, so no greater concern about the accuracy of geographic coordinates. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 03:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a link to the specific page at GEOnames, verified; you could have done likewise. If you still think the town doesn't exist, please find sources for that belief - reliance on your mistrust of GEOnames (it's a reliable source and this place is verified, the absence of the town in the Azeri language wikipedia is misplaced - there seem to be only 616 articles on places in Azerbaijan there, are you seriously saying that only those 616 exist and no others. Find me a verifiable source that it doesn't exist. Many of these places will not have much on the internet to describe their importance but the internet is not (a) the only valid source, and (b) generally hit or miss for reliability - no doubt you can find web pages telling you anything you want to. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 06:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GNS is not complete, I grant that - it has 40,000 entries for India - there are somewhere between 600,000 to 1,000,000 villages there (4-7% coverage). But if it's at GNS, it's quite likely to exist. GNS has little reason to create non-existent entries. And yes, it - no different than the New York times, the census bureau, Encyclopedia Brittanica, or any other source is as good as the employees who create it. Taken to the logical extreme, there are no reliable sources. But that's not the result here - we may rely on reliable sources and given the extensive reliance by Wikipedia on GNS, I think that reliance on it is not unreasonable. Thanks for any assistance provided to find additional sources, or other places not even covered by GNS - completeness is an aim, not an expectation. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see your point. GNS is a reliable sources - might there be mistakes? there might. The BBC and NY Times are reliable sources, might there be mistakes? yes. So, what's your point. In the eye of God is any source perfect? no. Does Wikipedia require perfection? no, just verifiability. That's been satisfied. Your earlier complaint about rounding errors leads you to your WP:OR that some village doesn't exist because the rounded coordinates point to a field adjacent to the built up area. Well, if you have a reliable source for more accurate geographic coordinates, please provide it. And it seems that many places have both built up areas and farmers fields - where the village line (if such a concept exists) is and where not seems a more appropriate thing to consider and your research only shows that the rounded coordinates point to a field. Wikipedia has thousands of geographic articles without citation or coordinates at all, perhaps you should better focus your efforts in tracking down whether those really exist rather than complaining about whether GNS is a reliable source. As to population: most of these have sources. I am adding them as I catch them, as Ləki. You could help rather than beat a dead horse about GNS's less than 100% coverage (granted) and rounding of coordinates (granted; by the way, those rounded to seconds are still rounded, as is any decimalization of Pi - so should Pi's existence be called into question as well?). Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uncertainty is normal; how many people live in Nigeria, e.g.? Our article cites a UN estimate of 140,000,000 - I'd bet dollars to donuts that the number of people in Nigeria is not exactly 140M. You want to delete the entry on Nigeria? Or the population figure? Feel, free. As for the two places you cite: both now have GNS direct cites. And if you search google for Ağarəhimoba, you will find several news stories (in Azeri) about the village. If you search google on its alternate name "Agaragimoba", you get 158 hits, some in English, including encarta.msn.com. And yes, encarta and msn probably are also imperfect and fail your reliability test, but alas your test is not wikipedia's. As for Fakhlul, there are 333 google hits, including some google earth reflectors, and again Encarta. I think that had you done a minimal amount of work searching google, you'd have found these. Your position is that you don't like imperfect sources, rounded numbers, etc. Well this is neither the forum nor an efficient way to discuss these in the WP community. See WP:POINT. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I will do no such thing. You have again complained about something that gets no google hits yet again didn't do the a minimal check on the alternate name. Your ill-informed lazy complaints are disruptive. I have found that there are people who want to expand and improve WP and those who stand in the way of all progress and do minimal work but lots of criticism requiring others to spend extra time tying to explain things that seem obvious to everybody else. Since this discussion is not going anywhere, and every complaint you've raised has been addressed, I'm disinclined to continuously respond to each and every nit & pick you have. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 16:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AKO Fraternity

Hey, I saw your PROD tag on the AKO Fraternity article. They are a big organization in Southwestern Ontario and especially in the Windsor, Essex, and Chatham-Kent regions. The article survived an AfD a long time ago and I believe part of the problem with the article is that it is not named properly. I am going to remove the PROD tag and request a name move and tag it for insufficient sources... then I will put a not over on the Windsor, Ontario article, asking someone to clean it up. DMighton (talk) 17:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, as long as the correct name gets more Google hits. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 17:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to anyways... nobody knows it as Alpha Kai Omega... which was my error. Everyone in the area calls it AKO Fraternity or AKO. DMighton (talk) 17:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Google

Can I ask why you always base your arguments towards notability on google and google hits? Google is far from complete particularly in geographic coverage in the way that wikipedia is far from complete. Such articles would need paper sources so develop fully and I bet there are sources within Azerbaijan in the Azeri language which have information on these places. You have questioned the reliability of GEO names server but basically your're questioning any GNS server which has registered these places as populated places via satellite. I agree that government sources should be used, but where we disagree is that I think a stub using coordinates is a start whereas you don't think they should be created. I tend to agree with you up to a point about the status of the location, but I doubt all of the coordinates are going to be massively in error and generally they ar elikely to be more accurate than inaccurate. My only concern as I said is the status of a place e.g many of them could be hamlets that aren't worthy of note. At present I'm only working on articles where government sources exist currently but every source is compiled by people, we can't begin questioning everything. Carlos found population figures for the Armenian places form government sources, if he has implied he can do the same with Azerbaijan, I suggest you let him get on with it and see how it turns out. The Bald One ^{White cat} 10:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As you know, the burden of proof lies with the article creator. However, the burden at AfD is the nominator to make his case that the place is not notable, or not verifiable. I have made the case that Angelan is not verifiable online. If paper sources were available, it is up to people who want to keep the article to provide them. If they are found later, the article can be recreated. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not intend to obliterate truckloads of stubs, nor even how to do that. I am sure that the vast majority of the GNS data is fine. However, as I have proposed, Wikipedia should be better than FallingRain. If a user wants to look up some obscure village, they want more than just the (slightly incorrect) coordinates available all over the internet.

Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but nominating one article for deletion just to prove a point or to get people who feel strongly about it to turn up again and again isn't a productive course of action either. I agree with your principle in a way, this is why these days I only work on articles that can be expanded or government sources exist. Template:Chiapas etc and Babala, Nepal etc. I hope that once my work is finished on the countries where lot of info is currently avilabale by the time I reach the other places more web info will be on here. All the same, if Carlos has indicated he can expand them slightly like he did with Armenia, in the long term I think it is a positive step to make. The Bald One ^{White cat} 10:40, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Guys like Kww and Edison want the stubs gone. I find articles written by people from the place and make them better. A couple of days ago, I found Bansong-dong and really improved it. I even figured out what species of tree the place is named after. I added an infobox to Líšná (Přerov District), cleared up a major source of confusion in Shalateen, and corrected the coordinates for one of Carlos' stubs, Ləki. If I was going to go on a stub making binge, I'd avail myself of a library and get ahold of the actual census results for a country, or maybe a detailed atlas. Cannot Carlos either do that, or do a cursory Google search to make sure the place has some human corroboration? Just to give an example, just now I randomly picked Cəlilkənd and did a Google search. Instant proof. Minimal effort. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 11:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I didn't see very many of the usual suspects show up at the AfD. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Koreatown, Vancouver got Koreatown, Vancouver deleted, and Wikipedia is better as a result. There is no surge of AfD nominations for neighborhoods as a result. The creator of Koreatown, Vancouver will be a more careful, higher quality editor as a result. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 11:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nepal Census 2001 etc. This gives data on housing/education too. [Gazeteer of Gambia -there are over a 1000 places with population census and estimates for Gambia missing. It contains info on the 1993 census for most of the places in the country. It initially began as the first 200 but now it hs developed to include population for most of the villages. I believe this site is reliable otherwise the creator would not bother spending all their time displaying the data. Falling grain though I agree is awful. Eventually I hope this will be the same for most countries where full opulation figures are available. It is probably best to add places with population figures and somebasic details first, but if Carlos believes he can find population figures later for Azerbaijan, I believe him. The Bald One ^{White cat} 12:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- That world gazetteer looks dandy, it seems to compile census data over many years. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 22:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Durga Maa Motion Pictures

Good catch on the hoax. I reviewed each Wikilink in the article. When I unlinked those leading to subjects other than film or actors, and then unlinked those that lead to films by some other production company... there was nothing left except a link to Sharan Kapoor.... and when I saw that the Durga article was created by a User:Sharanbt, it became very obvious that you had definitely found a hoax. Good job. Then backsearching the article on him, I found this little jewel. The following his path forward through February 2008, I saw the article redirected to Durga Maa Telefilms which itself appears to be a hoax. It's only link is to a free hosing site. On August 16 an anonymous IP returned a version of the "autobiography" and then 2 days later the Durga Ma Motion Pictures artuicle was created... using informations from the "autobiography" and the Durga Maa Telefilms article. No sources. No notability. No WP:V. Would you like the honor of sending these other 2 to AfD with this hoax, or shall I? Again.... good catch. By the way.. look at the editing history of the telefilms article... among all the many anonymous contributions, the ones from a User:Sharan.kapoor stand out. Not only a hoax, but a major violation od WP:COI even if the company existed. It appears this person has been spinning a web of decit all over Wiki in support of his interests. Yikes. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 07:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please nominate them. I have to go to the store before it closes. Thanks. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 07:40, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for doing that. I asked Collectonion for advice before bed and when I woke up, you had sent it over. Thanks much. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 19:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - No problemo. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 19:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwanese schools stub creator

Cool, thanks for taking that on. Malla nox 10:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]