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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ronnotel (talk | contribs) at 13:07, 8 September 2014 (→‎Arbitrary break: thanks - seeking advice on how to move forward). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.
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    Current disputes

    BlackLight Power

    – Discussion in progress.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    There is discussion about whether an editorial in a well regarded physics journal is a secondary source, and whether it should be included in the article. For convenience, here is an extract from the editorial:

    Despite the reservations about the “hydrino” hypothesis expressed by some members of the scientific community, we decided that, after ensuring that the paper passed all necessary refereeing procedures (review by two independent senior members of the academic community), we should publish this paper rather than silence the discussion by rejecting it. We view this as the most effective way to stimulate scientific discourse, encourage debate, and engage in a meaningful dialogue about what is admittedly a controversial postulate.

    The following draft sentence has been proposed, but no consensus reached thus far: In 2011 the editors-in-chief of a reputable physics journal characterised the hydrino hypothesis as being worthy of further scientific discussion and debate while acknowledging the "reservations...expressed by some members of the scientific community".

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Engaged in discussions on my Talk page.

    How do you think we can help?

    Editors seem to be fairly polarised in their view of Blacklight Power on the talk page. It would be very helpful for people less interested in (or committed to) currently accepted physics to bring some dispassionate attention to the nature and quality of the source in dispute as such editors are less likely to be distracted by the implications of what BLP does in deciding on the issue of WP:RS.

    Summary of dispute by Alexbrn

    Trying to torture meaning out of a flimsy editorial comment in order to big up a fanstastical claim which would re-write the laws of science. I don't think so. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 06:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Ronnotel

    The article in question is from European Physical Journal D, a mid to high quality journal that consistently ranks in the top or second quartile related to other physics journals. It is unusual for a journal such as this to publish an editorial justifying a decision to publish a paper. The reason for doing so is that one potential interpretation of the results would have a profound impact on our understanding of quantum mechanics and the Standard Model. However, there could be other interpretations that would not be as impactful, but could still introduce new science. However, how will these interpretations be resolved if the results are summarily suppressed? How does it serve the scientific process to prohibit the mention of an article such as this? Ronnotel (talk) 13:43, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by LeadSongDog

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    One SPA disagreeing with all others][[wp:IDHT|This argument] about a source for a fringe free energy claim hardly deserves a serious response. Going fForum shopping when prospects at the article talk page dry up? Priceless. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Bhny

    If something is "worthy of further scientific discussion" it will be discussed and maybe then we will have something to add to the article. Let us wait for a discussion! Most wikipedia topics are worthy of discussion and obviously we don't state that in an article. Being "worthy of discussion" is not a notable thing, and also the quote is from a primary source. Bhny (talk) 03:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by VQuakr

    • The source in question is the 1.1-paragraph editorial here, linked from here if the direct pdf hyperlink does not work. It does not mention the subject of the article in question, BlackLight Power (BLP).
    • The proposed edit badly misinterprets the source, which is much more a dry justification than an endorsement. That the editors felt the need to justify publishing one of Mills's papers is not relevant enough to BLP to merit inclusion in the article. VQuakr (talk) 04:52, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Johnuniq

    Talk:BlackLight Power shows a large amount of activity focused on attempts to find something that might be added to the article to boost the impression that the company may be on the verge of a scientific breakthrough that will provide endless energy at low cost. However, the talk page also has a large section at the top regarding "Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience" showing that scientific consensus determines what appears in articles, and by that guideline a throw-away editorial should not be used to suggest a positive result regarding hypothetical hydrinos. Johnuniq (talk) 04:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment by 2over0

    I am uninvolved in this particular dispute but have edited the article in the past. EPJ D is a fine journal (not first tier, but top quartile sounds about right), but the editorial in question is a good reason to continue treating the issue of hydrinos as outside of mainstream physics. Using this source as proposed would be to severely misrepresent it. If post-publication peer review shows interest from the relevant community of physicists, then we can talk about new physics. As it stands, this remains a WP:FRINGE claim. - 2/0 (cont.) 14:45, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    BlackLight Power discussion

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am doing a bit of research, reading all of the talk page comments before opening this up for discussion. This should take less than a day. In the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:17, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Relevant prior discussions:
    OK, I have carefully studied the article, references, and talk page discussion. Before I continue, I would like to address one minor issue: User:LeadSongDog, would you be so kind as to strike or delete your comment about forum shopping? Here at DRN we only discuss article content, never user conduct.
    Getting back to the case at hand, I am now opening it up for discussion. Please note that it is my duty as a DRN volunteer to remain neutral in matters of editorial judgement and consensus building, but to also take a stand if I believe that Wikipedia's core principles are being violated.
    As I hope everyone already knows, this page is under standard discretionary sanctions, according to the following arbcom ruling:
    Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all articles relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning.
    Passed 8 to 0 by motion, 22:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    I encourage anyone who has not done so to at least read Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Final decision and if possible to read the details of the case. It has many parallels with what we are discussing here. Pseudoscience pages often devolve into one side wanting too turn Wikipedia into a public relations arm of a particular pseudoscience (arguably, many of User:Blippy's proposed changes over the 9 months he has been working almost exclusively on this page fit this description), while the other side tries to turn Wikipedia into The Skeptics Dictionary while a few lonely voices stand for Wikipedia's core values.
    I have looked over this page carefully, and it is my considered opinion that the editorial choices to include the terms "fraud" and especially "loser technology" show that the current article lacks WP:NPOV in spots, is unencyclopedic in spots, and may very well contain WP:BLP violations. I don't see anything that leads me to believe that Philip Warren Anderson is qualified to differentiate between someone who is committing scientific fraud and someone who truly believes a particular bit of pseudoscience. I see no reason why we aren't simply quoting IEEE Spectrum magazine as saying that "most experts don't believe such lower states exist, and they say the experiments don't present convincing evidence". Adding the "loser technology" is blatant editorializing and completely unencyclopedic.
    I also have not seen a good argument for excluding European Physical Journal D. Certainly Blippy's suggestion ("In 2011 the editors-in-chief of a reputable physics journal characterized the hydrino hypothesis as being worthy of further scientific discussion") goes way too far in the other direction into advocacy, but why can's we just neutrally describe the paper and then neutrally describe the accompanying comment and editorial? It really looks like we are applying a higher standard than used in other pseudoscience topics.
    Finally, the comments by User:Ronnotel -- an experienced editor and an administrator -- appear to have been dismissed with any real effort to seek consensus concerning the issues he brings up.
    Based upon the above observations, I am going to recommend that we have a discussion here and attempt to come to an agreement on the above issues, and if we cannot do that, to escalate this to a less-informal forum. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:07, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your assessment, Guy. In particular, I appreciate you pointing out that my concerns on the page have never been adequately addressed, especially the use of the term "fraud" which is a continuing source of injustice. I believe this is a direct violation of WP:BLP, no where else on WP am I aware of this type of language being used on so flimsy a pretext. Ronnotel (talk) 14:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    It was discussed at BLP/N[1] which I believe led to the current wording. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    That discussion, as well as this comment, is similarly unresponsive. How does the language in the article meet the demands of WP:BLP? Ronnotel (talk) 14:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    A theory (the "it" of the phrase in question) is not a living person. Does BLP apply to ideas? (Add: the point is it's wrong to say this hasn't been discussed, it's been discussed at a noticeboard where editors with BLP expertise are assumed to be on hand.)Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    An interpretation of WP:BLP that relies on highly legalistic reasoning is a red flag. The intent of WP:BLP is to look for reasons to exclude possibly defamatory language rather than reasons to include it. Ronnotel (talk) 14:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    There is nothing legalistic in saying a criticism of a scientific hypothesis as being bogus (which is what fraud means in that context) does not fall under the remit of WP:BLP. It is you who is crying BLP. There is the hydrino hypothesis, it was criticized in robust terms by a eminent scientist, he was quoted and published (and is still published online) by the Village Voice – who as a professional outfit presumably take care in what they publish. Wikipedia cites that criticsm to give the mainstream view in line with our core policy. As Guy has wisely said, we need to paid heed to the core principles of Wikipedia. Neutrality is one of them. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 15:05, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I think we agree on the need to be skeptical regarding the theory. We can do that without using the word "fraud", which is poorly sourced and therefore must be removed per WP:BLP. Ronnotel (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, I just noticed it was you who originated the BLPN discussion. I agree with others that only a bad misunderstanding of the word "fraud" in this context could lead to any suggestion of a BLP aspect to its use. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 15:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I've alluded to this a number of times, so now I'll make a direct request. Can you please address the specific language in WP:BLP that spells out the circumstances when poorly sourced, defamatory language is acceptable. I don't see an exception for "bad misunderstanding". Ronnotel (talk) 16:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Irrelevant. The point is BLP doesn't apply to criticism of ideas, as you cannot defame an idea. I have no particular attachment to this particular form of words being in the lede, but invoking the BLP aspect here is badly off-beam in my view (and, it seems, in the view of those who frequent BLPN). Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 16:37, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    So I'm afraid I have no idea how to proceed in a dispute resolution when told that referencing WP:BLP is irrelevant to a poorly sourced allegation of "fraud". Perhaps the moderator or some other uninvolved observer can provide guidance here. I certainly can't lend my support to this view - I don't believe that is how WP is meant to work. Ronnotel (talk) 16:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know how many ways I can say it. Let me give it one more go. There is no allegation of fraud against Mills. That is a misreading (as I and other have said, yet I'm not seeing any acknowledgment.) The hydrino hypothesis was described as "a fraud". You are insisting that somehow this criticism of the idea is transitive to criticism of one of its proponents. I and others disagree. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 17:02, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I accept that you are making this claim in good faith. However, can you accept how a reasonable person might visit the page, fail to make this distinction and come away with the notion that the WP page has labeled Mills a fraud? Can you show me any other page on WP where a similar accusation is leveled at "an idea" on such flimsy evidence? Ronnotel (talk) 17:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    The WP page has not "labeled Mills a fraud", as we have belaboured at some length, and as has been repeatedly observed. People may infer what they will. We do not spin for a desired outcome, we neutrally report what is so. The evidence that the hydrino hypothesis is considered bogus is not flimsy: it's the unanimous consensus of all authorities. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 17:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    bogus is not a synonym for fraud. Ronnotel (talk) 18:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    As the DRN volunteer who is trying to help you folks resolve this case, I am going to ask the two of you to slow down, let someone else weight in, and try to avoid creating a "wall of text" with rapid-fire responses. If you desire, you can continue the back-and-forth discussion on the article talk page, but DRN needs to be more structured and deliberate. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Arbitrary break

    I would like to address one point brought up in the above discussion: the value and authority of prior discussions. Some prior discussions, such as arbcom rulings and warnings by uninvolved administrators, are authoritative. We can point at them and say that they settle a particular issue. Noticeboards such as Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard -- and indeed DRN itself -- can be good indications of consensus on a particular issue (if a bunch of uninvolved experienced editors say that something is or isn't a BLP violation, it is a good idea to listen to them), but the actual decision as to whether something is or is not a BLP violation must rest with an uninvolved administrator. It is, of course, far better for us to come to an agreement here rather than asking an admin to intervene, but BLP/N discussions -- especially ones with only a handful of participants -- are not authoritative. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Here are a few working definitions (subject to debate, of course: DRN volunteers purposely have no authority):

    • BLP Violation: Anything that violates WP:BLP, anywhere on wikipedia. Specifically not limited to actual biography pages, but must refer to a living person, not just a company or a theory. That being said, some companies and some theories are so closely associated with an individual that BLP protection extends to them.
    • Financial Fraud: What most people think of when they see the word "fraud". Source must be reliable on the subject, such as a prosecutor or grand jury for accusations of financial fraud, and a conviction in a court of law for financial fraud.
    • Scientific Fraud: Purposeful falsification of data or results. Source must be reliable on whether the scientist was purposely lying as opposed to being mistaken or even being a crackpot who believes his own pseudoscience. An example would be a university making an official finding of scientific fraud by one of its researchers. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    "some companies and some theories are so closely associated with an individual that BLP protection extends to them" ← I don't believe that's in the policy, which reads to me as being tightly circumscribed to "living persons". Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 03:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    By your own analysis Alexbrn, a theory is not a living person and so cannot commit or be a fraud of any kind. Only a natural or corporate person can do that, so there is unfortunate ambiguity built into the use of this quote in the lede - compounded by the fact that the article is about Mills and Blacklight Power - not the hydrino theory - so a reader could be forgiven for thinking that the it being referred to is one of those things which can commit fraud. This is completely avoidable, and to my knowledge there has been no proof of any fraud in the intervening 15 years - if anything Mill's case has gotten stronger (e.g. the editorial in question) - so it isn't clear to me what NPOV or WEIGHT benefit accrues from such an extreme and old quote being used so prominently in the lede. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 13:03, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Right, a theory is not a living person. So the word "fraud" applied to it must have one of that word's meanings that apply to things (e.g. "something false or spurious"). Anybody who thinks the "it" here is anything other than the hydrino hypothesis would lack basic reading skills; we don't write for such people, but assume at least basic competence in reading. As I have said, I have no particular attachment to this particular word. But the point is that the hypotheis has long been dismissed by reputed scientists as tosh: if some way could be found to convey that by paraphrasing I'd not argue with it. (And I'm not entirely sure why this is being raised now anyway, since it was not a matter included in the DR request). Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Well that isn't how the word is predominantly used - the usage you suggest is more akin to fake, not fraud. Here's a quick definition from the web where you'll note the tone is decidely one of deceit:
    fraud frɔːd/ noun: fraud; plural noun: frauds
    wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. "he was convicted of fraud"
    synonyms: fraudulence, sharp practice, cheating, swindling, trickery, artifice, deceit, deception, double-dealing, duplicity, treachery, chicanery, skulduggery, imposture, embezzlement; informal monkey business, funny business, crookedness, hanky-panky, shenanigans, flimflam; informal jiggery-pokery; informal monkeyshines; archaic management, knavery a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities. "mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds"
    I would suggest that since at least three editors here consider it to be ambiguous, then perhaps - by definition - it is. Cheers, Blippy (talk) 14:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Re: "some companies and some theories are so closely associated with an individual that BLP protection extends to them" ← I don't believe that's in the policy, which reads to me as being tightly circumscribed to "living persons"

    My reasoning is at as follows: Consider the following extreme case: A company consists of one person and the person and the company are intertwined in the public eye. Would Wikipedia really be allowed to say things about the company that would be BLP violations if said about the person? I think not.

    Re: I don't believe that's in the policy, which reads to me as being tightly circumscribed to "living persons"

    The very first sentence of WP:BLP is "Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page" (emphasis in original). If we cannot accuse Randell L. Mills of fraud directly, we cannot call his theory a fraud either. And, as I pointed out before, Philip Warren Anderson is not a reliable source on the question of whether Randell L. Mills has committed scientific or financial fraud. WP:BLPGROUP specifically says: "The extent to which the BLP policy applies to edits about groups is complex and must be judged on a case-by-case basis. A harmful statement about a small group or organization comes closer to being a BLP problem than a similar statement about a larger group; and when the group is very small, it may be impossible to draw a distinction between the group and the individuals that make up the group."

    I think that we have heard all the arguments on both sides of this issue, I am going to give it a bit more time for discussion, (I am really hoping for something from someone who has not already weighed in) and if we cannot arrive at a compromise that everyone agrees with I am going to close the DRN case and put out a call for a couple of uninvolved administrators to deal with what some experienced editors believe to be a BLP violation while other experience editors think it is not. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    (Could you please sign that, Guy.) I consider myself very uninvolved here. (I semiprotected the article once for a couple of weeks, that's all.) Just to place me in general, even if it does involve mentioning a user: I most often find myself in agreement with Alexbrn on fringe and pseudoscience pages. Not on the question of talking about "fraud" in this article, though. Fraud means "an act of deception carried out for the purpose of unfair, undeserved and/or unlawful gain". It implies dishonesty on the part of the person(s) perpetrating the fraud. Compare the quotes above. Bogus means "Counterfeit or fake; not genuine". "Not genuine" can, depending on context, sometimes imply deception (that would be the fake/counterfeit aspect), but doesn't necessarily do so. (I'm quoting the wiktionary definitions.) Fraud and bogus just aren't synonyms, to my sense. I feel strongly that the word "fraud" is a BLP violation, and shouldn't be used in the article. Shouldn't be used anywhere on Wikipedia unless deliberate deception has been proved, preferably in a court of law.
    On the other hand, the quoted editorial from the European Physical Journal shouldn't be used either. The phrasing can't bear the weight put on it. Especially, it doesn't support any conclusion that the hydrino hypothesis is worthy of further scientific discussion, in my opinion. Saying so would be drawing a conclusion that the journal doesn't itself draw. Bishonen | talk 17:21, 6 September 2014 (UTC).[reply]
    Just to be clear, I also don't think that the quoted editorial from the European Physical Journal bears the weight put on it or supports any conclusion that the hydrino hypothesis is worthy of further scientific discussion. I think that it should be referenced (and possibly *appropriately* quoted -- that's an editorial decision and not something a DRN volunteer should try to influence) in such a way that we end up with a purely neutral description of what the paper actually claims and a neutral description of the editorial and the notes pages, mentioning how uncommon such additional comments are. Nothing added, nothing implied, just a straight NPOV description. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    You might like to rewrite WP:SYNTH before promoting that idea. DRN volunteers should not inflame cases such as this article where a company promises to revolutionize physics and provide inexhaustible and cheap energy. Such topics do not warrant grasping-at-straws editorial comments on why a particular paper was published (are the journal editors experts on hydrinos?). It is reasonable to discuss whether "fraud" should be mentioned in the lead, but conflating an article on a company with BLP is not going to fly because the article does not assert than an individual committed fraud. Note that the "sure that it's a fraud" comment is attributed to an American physicist who won a Nobel Prize in Physics—that's not your average smear, and a very good reason would be need to omit it. Johnuniq (talk) 01:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Everything in the article is correctly sourced and Blacklight is a company not a person. Nothing more needs to be said. Bhny (talk) 17:53, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I have carefully considered all of the above arguments, and it is my considered opinion that the article in its present state clearly violates WP:IMPARTIAL. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Guy, many thanks for taking the time to review the article and provide your feedback. I agree that there are many problems with the article as I have mentioned above. However, given that ArbComm has placed the article under discretionary sanctions, many editors are reluctant to edit the page and risk falling under these sanctions. For instance, User:Blippy has been cautioned for his behavior for simply trying to raise these issues. Do you have any guidance on how we can move forward? Ronnotel (talk) 13:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    2014 Israel–Gaza conflict

    – This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Reliable sources--including news reports describing the attacks, official statements by the Israeli PM, and secondary analyses--state that Hamas began directly firing rockets at Israel on June 29 or June 30. Other reliable sources state that Hamas only began taking formal "responsibility" for rocket attacks after a July 6 Israeli attack on Khan Yunis killed Hamas members. Even though all of those sources explicitly attribute the latter claim to Hamas, and my opponents acknowledge the ambiguity of the "responsibility" language, outspoken anti-Israel activist editors have deleted the Israeli claims on the grounds that the sources are somehow less than reliable. The discussion on the talk page speaks for itself.

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Talk page discussion.

    How do you think we can help?

    You can examine the sources in a neutral manner and suggest a proposed wording.

    Summary of dispute by Nishidani

    Nothing to say here, because the report falsifies the evidence (all sources do not attribute to Hamas a claim that they took responsibility on the 7th. (b)'outspoken anti-Israel activist editors' is the editor's way of writing 'people who disagree with me', and implies the editor has already profiled people who do not agree with him as animated by some pathological hostility to a state. It's a smearing caricature.Nishidani (talk) 09:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Kingsindian

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    The issue here is when Hamas rocket fire started. There is a long discussion here. The basic source here is Nathan Thrall. The full quote by Thrall is given here.

    Several points now:

    • The lead is a summary, and it was agreed to keep it as short as possible.
    • Thrall is a neutral, highly respected analyst at the International Crisis Group. The source is eminently WP:RS. There is no "Hamas claim" which he is reporting.
    • Thrall makes it clear that the rockets before July 6 were fired by non-Hamas groups. The last sentence by Thrall is slightly ambiguous, which can be read as Hamas taking responsibility for rocket fire after 6 July, or Hamas taking responsibility for rockets before 6 July.
    • Other sources detailed in the section speak less ambiguously and each points to July 6 raid as the date when Hamas started firing rockets. There is only one exception cited there, J.J. Goldberg, who repeats the Israeli claim that the rocket fire started on June 30.
    • There are some news reports, cited here by TheTimesAreAChanging which (mostly) report the Netanyahu claim, or cite the IDF that Hamas rockets started on June 30 or "Hamas involvement" in the rockets. A typical example is the Reuters report, which makes it clear (even in the title) that it is reporting Netanyahu's claims. Most of the other news reports either quote the IDF or Netanyahu. As far as I can see, there is exactly one report by Ynet, an Israeli newspaper, which states this in its own voice, but a cursory look at that article will show that it is based on IDF sources.
    • Newspapers are meant to report real-time things and often they just report, "he said, she said" (often they don't bother about "she said"). The Thrall source (and others cited in the section) are neutral, third party analysts, some of them could be accused of bias for sure.
    • I have offered earlier to include the Thrall quote with its slight ambiguity and with attribution. That was not commented upon, and I assume, rejected.

    This is not the venue to be discussing conduct, so any accusation of "anti-Israel activist editors" is out of place. Needless to say, it is false, TheTimesAreAChanging has already made up his mind about me and nothing will shake it. Kingsindian (talk) 12:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Shrike

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    We should stick to what sources say pretty simple .Thrall source its only one source and we may use it but there are other sources like analysis by Goldenberg that are too important and as TheTimesAreAChanging said we shouldn't advance one POV that rockets that where fired before was not by Hamas while other sources clearly say that where fired by Hamas member.We should definitely include this information.--Shrike (talk) 04:01, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment by -sche

    Since someone in the discussion section has noted my silence, I suppose I'll comment out loud: meh. My main interest is keeping the article well-copyedited, I don't have strong feelings about whether or not the "30 June" claim should be included. On the talk page, someone discussed changing "which Hamas itself began following an Israeli airstrike on 6 July which killed seven Hamas militants in Khan Yunis" to "which Hamas itself began on either June 30 (according to Israel) or July 7 (according to Hamas)". This was shot down (ugh, did I just make a missile pun?) because the July 7 date was not "according to Hamas", but "according to several sources independent of either Hamas or the IDF". Perhaps the solution is just to say that, i.e. to say something to the effect of "which Hamas itself began either (according to several sources) on 7 July after an Israeli airstrike on 6 July killed seven Hamas militants in Khan Yunis, or (according to Israel) on 30 June". -sche (talk) 06:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by IRISZOOM

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    As others have explained here, the problem is not correctly described here. The claim is not made by Hamas but neutral authors. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    It's not only one source, it's several of them. One more was noted by me yesterday, an article written by Noam Chomsky. See this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    If I may interject: Z Communications is fringe. Chomsky is a notable polemicist. Nishidani favors keeping the Goldberg claim with attribution, but it is not clear why Thrall or Chomsky do not need attribution, or why the lead should not summarize that part of the article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    2014 Israel–Gaza conflict discussion

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    The BBC source says "On 7 July, Hamas claimed responsibility." Thrall says "[On 7 July,] Hamas began taking responsibility for the rockets." (Which may include the rockets fired before.) Both of those claims are explicitly attributed to Hamas. By contrast, Goldberg says "On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad [emphasis added] killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day [Hamas] unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over. Israel was forced to retaliate for the rockets with air raids." Ynet reported: "For the first time since the end of the IDF Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, the Hamas military wing is behind rocket strikes on Israel, with a wave of attacks overnight Sunday (June 29) and early Monday emanating from central Gaza refugee camps completely under Hamas control. There a number of Palestinian factions active in Gaza and though Israel views Hamas as responsible for any rockets fired from the Gaza territory, the group generally avoids such direct attacks on Israel. In the past 24 hours, however, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades have been launching rockets from the Dir al Balach, Bureij and Muasi refugee camps...Monday's rockets were of an older make known to be in the Hamas arsenal...The IDF said Mohammed Zaid Abid was killed after the army launched a targeted attack against his rocket launching cell minutes before they planned to fire at Israel. Abid was identified by Palestinian media as a member of the Hamas military wing." So Ynet cites the IDF and Palestinian media for information on Abid, but neither Ynet nor the later analysis by Goldberg directly attribute the claim of Hamas rocket fire on June 30 to Israel. Even if the Reuters article quoting Netanyahu were the only source, and this was an "Israeli government POV", it would be grossly misleading to suppress it in favor of the official Hamas POV. Nishidani and Kingsindian appear to believe, because they are fans of Thrall's work and have praised it on Nishidani's talk page, that Thrall had some mechanism for determining the earlier reports of Hamas rocket fire were false and for verifying the official Hamas claims. That is sheer nonsense.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Thrall says it in his own voice, and is not quoting Hamas claims. He also says in his own voice, that the pre-July 6 rockets were fired by non-Hamas factions. The fact that Thrall did not repeat the Israeli claim, while he stated the facts in his own voice is operative. Your opinion about his methods is irrelevant here. I will take Thrall's analysis over a WP editor's. If you feel his last sentence is ambiguous, I have already made the offer to quote it directly, with attribution. Kingsindian (talk) 09:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Thrall and BBC are no more reliable than Goldberg or Ynet. I was not aware of any proposal to quote Thrall prior to this DRN discussion, but since we are here I welcome volunteer input on this matter.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hello, I am MrScorch6200, the DRN coordinator. Please remember to keep discussion to a minimum until this case is opened by a volunteer. Thanks and regards, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 04:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am not opening this case but I have a procedural question: Three of the five editors invited by the filing party appear to have chosen not to participate here. One has removed the DRN notice from their talk page. The other two have edited WP since the DRN notice was placed on their page. Is it useful to continue with this case in spite of their absence? What do the participants think?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 04:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, it is useful to continue. I would appreciate a neutral observer's take on the sources.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 10:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    24 hour closing notice: I don't see any indication of meaningful participation here by the named parties. DRN participation is optional and if editors to not want to engage in moderated discussion we cannot force them to. So far only the filing party has said they feel that partial consensus would be valuable in moving the issue forward. If you want "a neutral observer's take on the sources" then I suggest a WP:3O as DRN is for moderated discussion not outside opinions.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    As a possibly unusual step I left notes for Shrike and IRISZOOM encouraging them to actively participate. It would be unfortunate if the DRN had to close due to their absence. DRN is one of our better methods of resolving disputes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Everyone has commented except Shrike, who only left a sentence on the talk page in the first place. You previously told us to limit our discussion before a volunteer got involved. There is no reason why an impartial opinion should be this difficult to obtain. Thank you for the suggestion on 3O; I will try that if Shrike's absence is really so crucial.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I have not used WP:DRN before, so I am puzzled about the procedure. The talk page discussion is already listed, and we were told not to discuss more without volunteer input. Now there is a 24-hour closing notice (on the heels of a 48-hour closing notice, which I was equally puzzled by, and which was withdrawn after I clarified matters). As to the statement by IRISZOOM, they can speak for themselves, but my feeling is simply that they didn't elaborate because it would simply repeat the talk page discussion. Kingsindian (talk) 06:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Talk:Praveen Togadia#Non_notable_controversy

    – General close. See comments for reasoning.
    Closed discussion
    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Praveen Togadia is a Hindu nationalist leader who is a medical doctor by profession. Due to his alleged involvement in 2002 Gujarat riots, a group of doctors petitioned the Medical Council of India to revoke his medical license. An editor has asked for this material to be deleted from the article on the grounds that the petitioning group is not notable and no action has been taken on the petition. We request a dispute resolution.

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Asked for a Third Opinion, which was declined because there were already 3 active participants in the discussion.

    How do you think we can help?

    Assess the criteria claimed for the material's deletion.

    Summary of dispute by Bladesmulti

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Summary of dispute by Vanamonde93

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Summary of dispute by AmritasyaPutra

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Talk:Praveen Togadia#Non_notable_controversy discussion

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    Talk:South African_Republic

    – New discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Spammy low quality page with reference requests from 2010, I have spent a week updating the page, added 41 citations and did a lot of work. It is all being undone now by a gang of editors, citing npov editing, etc. whereas I am very willing to discuss any pov, but not given any opportunity. My work is now basically all gone and with a gang ganging up on me I am, in their words, a lone wolf editor, and this apparently never works out well... as we all have to agree on hostory and facts, etc. - although nobody bothers to look at my citations and facts...

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    tried posting in talk pages, pleading to simply discuss changes before reverting - to no avail. the editors simply keep on restoring the page to the spammy version.

    How do you think we can help?

    maybe if another editor can assist me, so that i do not feel alone in my battle against the gang?

    Summary of dispute by Dodger67

    Zarpboer is propagating a biased POV of South African history. He cherry picks fringe sources and novel interpretations of mainstream sources to support his cause - he has even cited sources apparently written by himself as if they are WP:IRS. He violates several core principles and rules of WP editing. WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:3RR, WP:Consensus. I'm afraid this editor is simply not here to improve WP but is determined to propagate a particular skewed version of history. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Mean_as_custard

    Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

    Summary of dispute by HelenOnline

    I have no comment on the current content dispute because I have not had the time to review the edits. I intervened when Zarpboer removed talk page conversations with other editors and pointed out the talk page guideline to them, and have also advised them to discuss further changes instead of edit warring to avoid being blocked. HelenOnline 15:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Jeppiz

    Zarpboer is involved in heavy POV-pushing. Four different editors have tried to explain the rules to Zarpboer who refuses to listen. The issue is already under discussion at ANI [2] containing a few diffs illustrating what kind of content Zarpboer keeps inserting despite all other involved users objecting to it.Jeppiz (talk) 13:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Talk:South African_Republic discussion

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    Lviv

    – New discussion.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    Refusal to follow the Gdansk rule precedent, condoning ethnic cleansing, and general antipolinism. It appears that there is one rule in Wikipedia for using the historical name of present day Polish cities which had been German before WWII, and another rule for the cities of Second Polish Republic from which Poles were ethnically cleansed by Stalin and other antipolinist nationalists. Rather than following the Gdansk rule precedent which has been used in Gdansk, and Wroclaw, there is hostility by other editors to the Gdansk rule in Wiki: NAME It is not seriously disputed that from 1340 to 1944 the city had a a majority population of Polish speakers comprised of a plurality of ethnic Poles combined with large numbers of Polish Jews, but certain editors object to usage of the Polish name Lwów during this long history prior to forced Soviet deportations and annexation.

    Edit to note that the action of the named editors also violated Wiki Reasonability Rule: "Consensus occurs only when the community as a whole agree that a particular action or presentation is reasonable in nature... Similarly, it would be unreasonable for an apparent consensus to form that would be contrary to Wikipedia policies (for example, insisting that a material fact is contrary to that presented in reliable sources)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reasonability_Rule Here these editors have unreasonably decided to have a separate rule for cities of the Second Polish Republic from which ethnic Poles were deported to pre-WWII German lands than in the formerly German cities to which they were sent. This is unreasonable. It is also discriminatory. Lwów, Wilno, and other formerly Polish cities are the opposite side of the same coin as the formerly German cities which are now Gdansk, Wroclaw, and Szczecin. There is no objective reason given for the different treatment.

    Per Wiki:NAME, Treatment of alternative names, "There is also no reason why alternative names cannot be used in article text, in contexts where they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Treatment_of_alternative_names Yet these authors, who do not contest that the Polish name of Lwów is more appropriate than other names during times of Polish sovereignty, or perhaps other names at other times. (Edits using the German name of "Lemberg were also deleted.) They simply refuse to follow the rule, and want to edit war because I invoked it.

    Also, the discussion to which they wish to rely is a reactionary statement from Taivo that "This is a Ukrainian city and its Ukrainian name is the title of the article. Its Ukrainian name should be preserved throughout the article." Some, including a Ukrainian nationalist contributor who prefers to refer to the Eastern lands of pre-war Poland as "occupied Western Ukraine", agreed with Taivo. The rationalizations for not following the Gdansk rule is that it is too messy or confusing to use other more appropriate names.

    In fact, there is nothing messy or confusing about the postwar history of Lwów. Over 100,000 ethnic Poles were forcibly deported Westward from Lwów after the city was annexed without their consent or their government's while thousands more who served in the Polish military were unable to return to their homeland. It would be difficult to find a clearer case of mass anti-polinism than this. In the modern world we call the forced deportation of a civilian population a crime against humanity. and it is against the Geneva conventions. (I didn't use the term genocide, although the Ukrainian nationalists in the larger area did participate in genocide against Jews and ethnic Poles.) These editors are using their subjective judgment of "messy" and "confusing" to actually obscure a crime against humanity. It is unreasonable, and unacceptable.

    [Edit to note that I have no issues with Xx236, who appears to be on my side in this dispute.]


    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.54.47 (talk) 05:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Talk page.

    How do you think we can help?

    Uniform application of the Gdansk rule and precedent, and the involvement of more neutral editors.

    Summary of dispute by Taivo

    There is no "Gdansk rule", there is only a "Gdansk option". Naming in any individual article is not based on an invariable rule, but upon local consensus. The existing consensus for naming Lviv through history is to use the current name "Lviv". The anonymous IP who is pushing to use the older, Polish name for the Polish era (but inexplicably ignores the Russian name for the Soviet era and the German name for the Austro-Hungarian era), has done nothing whatsoever to build a consensus on the Talk Page, but has resorted to falsely calling the Gdansk option an invariable "rule". --Taivo (talk) 16:57, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    It is also worth noting that other formerly Polish cities in western Ukraine follow Lviv's example. Rivne, for example, is "Rivne" throughout and doesn't switch between Równe and Rovno. Lutsk is also "Lutsk" throughout and doesn't alternate with Łuck. Even more to the point, Uzhhorod is known as "Uzhhorod" throughout and not "Uzhgorod" or "Ungvár", despite the fact that until WWII up to 80% of the city's population was Hungarian. The suggestion that this amounts to genocide is rather extraordinary, to say the least. --Taivo (talk) 01:55, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Xx236

    I understand that I have to start 500 votes regarding names of former Polish places and institutions and it's quite probable that I'll loose all of them because Polish editors aren't active here.
    There exists the problem of nationalistic (including Polish) content in this Wikipedia in general and in this article specifically.
    If such perfect consens exists since one year why doesn't the article apply it?

    Xx236 (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Summary of dispute by Pichpich

    Editors of the article on Gdansk were locked in a bitter dispute for quite some time which was resolved by a fairly simple rule: use Gdańsk in the title and in the rest of the article except in the history sections where the German name Danzig makes more sense (Danzig is also used in the lead sentence). This case is cited as an example in the policy WP:NAME but it is not prescribed as a rule despite claims to the contrary. It merely notes (very wisely, I think) that "There is also no reason why alternative names cannot be used in article text, in contexts where they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article". Discussions about the use of Lviv vs. Lvov vs. Lwow has been discussed many times on the talk page and in particular during a one-year old compromise that reads as follows:

    • Reduce the number of times the city is named in the history section
    • Use Lviv throughout when the city must be named
    • In the first sentence, whenever the name changes due to a change in ownership, the form of the name in the ruling power's language (Lviv > Lwów > Lemberg [1795] > Lwów [1919] > Lvov [1939] > Lviv [1991]) is noted in a parenthetical note after "Lviv"

    This is different from the solution used in Gdańsk but it does follow the spirit of WP:NAME's suggestion to use alternative names in the article. I prefer this consensus as I think it avoids any confusion and increases readability.

    Let me finally note that it's absurd to equate this choice with an anti-Polish slant or as condoning ethnic cleansing. Pichpich (talk) 20:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Lviv discussion

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

    Sports in Newark, New Jersey

    – Discussion in progress.

    Have you discussed this on a talk page?

    Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

    Location of dispute

    Users involved

    Dispute overview

    User Djflem does not seem to understand that the article Sports in Newark, New Jersey is specifically about sports teams that are based in Newark, New Jersey, they keep adding the New York Red Bulls to the article. The Red Bulls are based in Harrison NOT Newark, This has been explained on their talk page but they insist on continuously re-adding the information by justifying that Newark, New Jersey is a transportation hub of Harrison and therefore should be included which is an incorrect assumption.

    Have you tried to resolve this previously?

    Reverted edits by User:Djflem and put message on their talkpage attempting to explain why the Red Bulls should not be included as part of the article.

    How do you think we can help?

    Take administrative action if necessary to prevent Djflem from adding inaccurate information and then reverting it back to the inaccurate information when another user such as myself makes the correction.

    Summary of dispute by Djflem

    User TheGoofyGolfer's does not seem to understand that their assumptions are a POV and not what defines an article. Contrary to TheGoofyGolfer's claims, there has been no discussion on the talk page of the article, merely a unilateral claim based on those assumptions about what they think article is and a threat to go to the adminstrative noticeboard on my talk page about my contributions that s/he doesn't like. Despite their opinion, the info is correct. My edit summaries make clear the appropriate context for the text in the article as do its references provided by Red Bull and New Jersey Transit. (and this: http://www.newarkhappening.com/listings/Red-Bull-Arena/419/?menuid=999) It is balanced, neutral, correctly placed, and, verifiable. Djflem (talk) 07:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Sports in Newark, New Jersey discussion

    Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

     Clerk note: I notified Djflem (talk · contribs) of the DRN request. Thanks, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 22:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Moderated discussion

    This case is now open for discussion. First lets establish the core of the dispute. It seems to me that the issue is concerning this information (below) which has been repeatedly inserted and reverted.

    To start can we all agree that the content above is the core of the dispute?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:33, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. TheGoofyGolfer (talk) 22:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    The point I am trying to make is that any references to the Red Bulls are not appropriate for this article irregardless that Newark is a transportation hub for Harrison as User Djflem has stated, Newark is a hub for a lot of cities and it would be like including the New York Giants and New York Jets as part of the article even though they play at the Meadowlands Sports Complex in East Rutherford just because New Jersey Transit provides bus and rail service from Newark, No that's not how it works. While I applaud User Djflem efforts to keep the fresh with up-to-date information his thinking and edits are extremely flawed. TheGoofyGolfer (talk) 00:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    No. While the material above would be appropriate (and preferred) it now reads:
    Newark is the transportation hub for the Red Bull Arena, home stadium of Major League Soccer's Red Bulls, across the Passaic River from Newark's Riverbank Park in Harrsion, with shuttle bus service running from downtown train stations. PATH trains from Newark Penn Station are one stop to nearby Harrison station.
    and is supported by references from the official websites of Red Bull and the City of Newark tourism bureau:
    http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/HUB/NJTransitRBAShuttle
    http://www.newarkhappening.com/listings/Red-Bull-Arena/419/?menuid=999
    the NJT mention is for the good order and completeness of coverage
    http://www.njtransit.com/sa/sa_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=CustomerNoticeTo&NoticeId=2204

    Djflem (talk) 08:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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