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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jpmonroe (talk | contribs) at 12:48, 24 April 2008 (→‎Jack Kemp). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Jack Kemp

previous FAC (19:02, 9 April 2008)

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At nomination 1, I had just responded to most of the negative feedback the day it was closed. I think it might have passed had it stayed up another day. However, I have expanded the page a bit by sourcing details from U. S. News & World Report, Atlantic Monthly, and Newsweek to supplement the page that I felt was already pretty high quality. Its length still remains within the same range as the other world leaders noted on the first nomination although it is longer than the typical WP biography. I continue to believe that this is among the finest articles on WP and hope a few people now agree.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 23:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, as before, only more strongly. With a penetrating focus on the various phases of Kemp's life and career, an eminently readable style, and almost 300 footnotes (!), no question. Biruitorul (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Terrific writing, the article is very comprehensive on his entire life and careers, and neutral on all portions of it. Hello32020 (talk) 02:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Too many simple grammar mistakes and other issues.
Issues resolved, Giants2008 (talk) 19:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second paragraph of the lead: "ranging from his conservative opposition to abortion more centrist stances such as advocacy of immigration reform." Place a connecting word after abortion, and try to avoid a pair of "tos" so close together.
  • "Kemp also co-founded the American Football League Players Association, which he served as president for five terms." I think the flow of the sentence could be improved. How about "Kemp also co-founded the American Footballl League Players Association, for which he served five terms as president."
  • The last paragraph of the lead gets repetitive. Try this: "Since returning to public life, Kemp has continued a career of public service. He has been active as a political advocate and commentator, as well as serving on corporate and non-profit organization boards. Kemp has served in official capacities to promote American football and has been a political advocate for the Republican Party and retired professional football players." Also see if you can avoid having two "servings" that close.
  • I know you need to mention the Time cover in the text in order to use it, but it doesn't work for me in the story. At least get rid of the Mars part, which is completely off-topic.
  • We have two issues. 1.) I have found a paucity of free pics for a modern leader of Kemp's level of historical importance and we need more pics. Thus, we must use fair use. 2.) Fair use images must have some encyclopedic value. Just saying Kemp was on the cover of Time. Look at the picture is not really an encyclopedic value. However, when you can say the editors at Time wrote a story on the deliberations regarding the complicated decision on whether to put Dole-Kemp on the cover instead of the discovery of Life on Mars, the image becomes encyclopedic because it relates to a significant controversy or public dilemna. I hope that convinces you to allow it to stay as it is. Please read the citation about the controversy as well.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 14:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it was controversial, I think you should adjust the text, as I don't really sense that now. Insets are commonly used on magazine covers. Consider putting it like this: "which was so close to being on the cover that Time wrote about how difficult their decision was". Then move the citation with the story to the end of the paragraph, or use it twice if you prefer. Giants2008 (talk) 16:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • First sentence of Post-political life: "also known as the first of the two "Reagan tax cuts"". Delete the second "the".
  • A bit later: "even George W. Bush and his Treasury Secretary, John Snow, are a believers." Lose "a".
  • 2nd paragraph of Presidential bid (1988): His campaign was on an early positive course with many key early endorsements in New Hampshire," Flip key and early.
  • 2nd paragraph of Cabinet: "Kemp was constantly at odds with White House Budget Director, Richard Darman who opposed... Remove comma and place after Darman.
  • Next sentence: "HOPE was first proposed to John Sununu, the White House chief of staff in June 1989... Either put another comma after "staff" or change it to this: "HOPE was first proposed to White House chief of staff John Sununu in June 1989...
  • You're going to hate me for this one, but reference publishers only need to be linked at first appearance, and the same goes for the work column.
  • Is there a policy that you are referring to. I have seen it this way more often. The thinking is that readers don't read through every ref and linking it each time means it will be linked in the few refs they read. Imagine a reader reading much more than even 5 refs in this article. It would take him hours to read the article. Out of 5 refs he is only likely to see the same publisher or work maybe twice at most, but likely he would see a bunch of singletons. I think much like linking renews in separate charts in the same article it should with separate footnotes. Places other than refs that links repeat in FA articles are infoboxes and image captions.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 15:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do we only link the first usage, because a reader is suppose to look up the linked page the first time he sees it and remember it for the rest of the article. We make no assumption that the reader looks at every link. In an article with 300 links suppose you are looking at the 250th, but you did not look at the 64th, should we assume you know where to find the proper linkages. The purpose of the link in the ref is to allow the reader to understand the significance of the publisher and/or work. However, if you delink all subsequent links the reader will not be able to quickly differentiate between the unlinked terms and previously linked ones. Sandy has been passing all the other FACs that use this prevailing convention.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 20:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • P.S. Continuing down the WP:FAL see David Suzuki: The Autobiography and History of Norwich City F.C.. There is no preference on repetitive linking of publisher and works. It is currently a matter of preference with almost all recent FAs that link publishers and works at all repeating linkages.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 20:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem is that footnotes often move around. This instability is the nature of wikipedia. It is a Sisyphean task to keep only the first instances wikilinked. A guideline like this should be taken on a case-by-case basis. If you think it is low-value link then you could remove it with no resistance. If there is resistance, it's not worth a fight. --maclean 02:41, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A lot a great information in here, but as Tony would say: "Get a fresh pair of eyes to look at it." Giants2008 (talk) 14:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. I agree with Giants2008. Although I've only read the lead and the first section, I can tell this article needs quite a bit of work.
    • The lead is kind of a mess. First, I don't get the structure. Why does it start with his career as a politician, then move to his time as a football player, then go on with the time after his political life, and finish by mentioning that he was in the Army (when? no one knows)? Second, it doesn't mention that Kemp left public life and then a paragraph starts with "Since returning to public life". Furthermore: "Kemp has held duties in official capacities to promote American football and has been a political advocate for the Republican Party and retired professional football players." Of course he was an advocate for the Republicans; he was in office as a member of the party. "Kemp is also a veteran of the United States Army who has authored, co-authored, and edited several books." What has his having been in the Army have to do with the books he wrote? They don't seem to deal with the military.
      • I have swapped the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. This gives the WP:LEAD an opening paragraph describing his most important/notable roles. Then subsequent paragraphs give high level detail related to these important roles in sequential order. I moved the bit about the military to complete this reordering.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 21:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Kemp, who was born, raised and educated in Los Angeles, California, attended Fairfax High School, which is known both for its historically high concentration of Jewish students and for producing celebrities." The fact that he grew up in Los Angeles is already mentioned in the preceding paragraph.
    • "Although by the end of the century, Fairfax had become a majority Hispanic high school,[6] over 95 percent of Kemp's classmates were Jewish and he became a supporter of Jewish causes." By the end of what century? I presume you mean the 20th. Then it should be "would become"; the "had" implies that it had a Hispanic majority by the time Kemp attended it.
    • "Boasting an alumni of notable actors, athletes, and musicians, Fairfax is noted by celebrity-seeking guides.[8] The school is located on Melrose Avenue, and its alumni include Herb Alpert, David Arquette, Lenny Kravitz, Ricardo Montalban, David Janssen, Timothy Hutton and Mickey Rooney.[9][6]" The flow of these sentences is kind of weird. First it talks about the school's alumni, then it moves on to its location and then goes back to the alumni.
    • "Despite his proximity to the trappings of celebrity and entitlement, Kemp learned to embrace diversity and hard work during his experience working with his brothers at his father's trucking company in downtown Los Angeles." What? "Proximity to the trappings of celebrity and entitlement" normally turns people into bigots?
    • "Kemp's habit of rigorous reading showed in high school where he read history and philosophy books" If he had this habit before high school - as this sentence suggests - then it already it showed before by him reading other books.--Carabinieri (talk) 21:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And they are in violation of MoS guidelines also for their excessive length. And "only" 62k? You mean "only" violation MoS by 2k, when MoS tries to have people top off around 50k total? And for your information, the "text" portion is how you read "readable prose" according to the tool, and that doesn't include references which even the MoS includes, so, I would guess you are a good 20k over. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Violations of MoS are violations of MoS. If an FA is more than 10 printable pages, then it should be removed from FA status until it is trimmed down. Your page is 3 printable pages greater than the maximum suggested under MoS. Please, if you want to follow standard formating procedures, do what is recommended. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More comments - After another look, I'm actually more concerned about the article.

Issues resolved, Giants2008 (talk) 19:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Major error: Why is John Rauch's name incorrect in —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giants2008 (talk • contribs) 04:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm getting involved in edit conflict after edit conflict tonight. I found a lot more problems with the article, but they will have to wait until tomorrow. Giants2008 (talk) 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scratch that. I'll try again, in multiple parts. Here goes.

  • College: "I guess we won" needs quotation marks and probably a cite.
  • Marriage and family: Why are the ages of his children not mentioned? At least tell us how old his first child was so we can figure the rest out.
  • Football career: Please state that the AFL was a new league. It will provide context for the next sentence, showing that this new league needed overlooked players like Kemp to fill rosters. It's touched on to a certain extent, but I think it can be improved.
    • added "newly-formed"
  • Chargers era: It's almost unheard of for a pro quarterback to finish near the top of the league in rushing statistics (maybe in college). Maybe some more info about this.
  • Would like to see a cite for Paul Lowe's awards (or is this referenced in the following sentence?). Giants2008 (talk) 05:02, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe these facts predate my involvement with the article. I arrived when it was 12.1KB, and I took it to its current state of 159.1KB. I have done a lot of checking to make sure I had cites for Kemp's MVP's and recall confirming that Lowe won the others. I can not say which ref backs this up, but one of the two should if I recall. Looking at the 12.1 KB version] it use to just say they shared the MVP in a succession box. So I guess it is actually my spotty citations here because I only cared about the Kemp citations, but I can't get the cites for you from 550 miles away. I will check here in Chicago and see if they have any information.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 06:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Part two

  • Several suggestions for Joe Collier era: To avoid repetition, try this: "which was played for the right to represent the AFL in Super Bowl I". Capitalize star in All-star twice in same sentence. Why was the loss to the Oilers bad? If it was a blowout, briefly mention it. In last paragraph of section, lose Joe and Jack.
  • Another Jack in John Rauch era.
  • Career summary: Try this: He led Buffalo to three straight Eastern Division titles, and the 1964 and 1965 American Football League championships". I don't like the placement of the receivers. See if you can find a better spot.
    • That is sort of ungrammatical with the malplacedf comma and double ands. I revised slightly differently.--

TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 13:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Would like to see a cite for the 20 ten-year AFL players.
  • Congress: "a football fan like United States President Richard Nixon, who White House Advisor Robert Finch, and... I think you can see this one.
  • Next paragraph: Capitalize democrat.
  • Another Jack later in paragraph.
  • Last paragraph of section: References are like this (128)(127). Please reverse.
  • Presidential bid: "The political pundits recognize him however as a visionary idea man." Really needs changes: "The political pundits recognized him, however, as a visionary" and maybe find another term to replace "idea man".
    • I get real lazy about rereading quotes, but if you went throught the 200 or so online quotes you would find the phrase man of ideas, idea guy, idea man at least a half dozen times. I know this is better than idea guy, but do you prefer man of ideas?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 14:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'm pulling for this article, but hopefully you understand my concerns. Giants2008 (talk) 05:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Comment While I have all these eyes on the page, can someone address the talk page concern of where the Jr. came from.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTD) 07:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment made previously on the article talk, but no response there. In the second paragraph of "Cabinet" is the project opposed by Congress the same as the project opposed by Darman? They have the same description, so it's rather confusing. Also, I do not consider the overall wording of this paragraph to be neutral. Take for example the phrase "welfare reform to correct government offsets". Certainly it is a welfare "change". Whether it's a "reform" or is a pov. Similarly with the word "correct". There are also other wording issues. I edited it once, but was reverted so I'll leave the issue here for discussion. And to be clear, I'm not saying or implying that any editor is personally biased. .... A separate comment about FAC: There has been good progress with this article, but I don't think the writing is all that great yet. Lots of issues have been identified and corrected above. I've made a fair few edits myself. But my feeling is that FAC is the place to bring an article that is already well-copyedited, and just needs a minor tweak or two. This was a major issue in the last FAC, and basically the article needs a new set of eyes from someone with great writing skills. That said, the facts and references and coverage all seem to be of FA quality to me. Jpmonroe (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    First of all, let me say I am no serious scholar of politics. You can tell by my major contributions by project that I only have one check other than Kemp by WP:PLT. It is quite possible that I have misinterpreted a political scenario that someone who thrives on politics would understand better than I. It is also quite possible that in my reading of the 300 or so references for this article I have misinterpreted the secondary source in a few places. The first few sentences of this article are all refed by one New York Times article. You are free to edit to correct my interpretation. In fact, I welcome it. This was not the flavor of edit that was reverted. Your edits were reverted because 1. facts were moved from one place to another without regard for citation (I.E. a fact from a sentence reference by one source was moved to another sentence reference by other sources), 2. high school facts were moved to the youth paragraph. 3. facts were removed that help us understand his background. If you make a correction that helps us better understand/interpret a reference and retain the WP:ATT and WP:V qualities of the article it would be welcome. I welcome the eyes. My own eyes were weary. For every ref you see included in the article there are two or three that I read and did not include so my eyes are definitely getting weary. It is quite a responsibility to properly sketch an encyclopedic biography like this and really think a person who is relevant to as many projects as Kemp is relevant to should have a lot more hands willing to get involved. I understand my citing style may be tough to work with, but that is how you get an article seriously considered at FA using the internet. I am here to get feedback toward an FA. I am going to reread the article once or twice and see if I can better present the facts. It may take me a while. I am not so sure I want to engage in a debate over whether the semantics of reform vs. change are appropriate. Like I said. I am not trying to POV this guy. I am actually a lifelong Democrat and you can look at this tool to count the edits at Jesse Jackson, Template:GAstar Michelle Obama, Template:GACicon Jesse Jackson, Jr., Template:GAFicon Toni Preckwinkle and Sandi Jackson to see what I mean. I in fact do not know enough about the political spectrum to say whether you are in fact claiming I am POVing some republican ideologies since Kemp had a liberal bent. I just attempted to paraphrase or pick relevant quotes from various WP:RSs. What would be best is if you think I am POVing, note sentences and words just like some of the edits above and I will go line by line with you. The more your corrections get into iterpreting sociopolitical stuff the longer each response will take. A lot of the above has been just getting grammar and citations correct. Choosing the proper words to correctly relay facts is a slightly more complicated issue that will take longer, but I am willing to go there to get the article right.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand your reply. My comment notes exactly something I think is non-neutral, and says why. It is also states clearly that I do not think you are biased (and I've said that 4 times now). Intent is not the issue, and I wish you'd just stick to my very specific issues with the text instead of manufacturing an attack on your integrity out of nothing. Good grief. As to the rest, my opinion is that the writing isn't polished yet, and you've had several dozen specific comments about that in this FAC and the one last week. Disagreeing with my attempts to help doesn't change that. Bottom line, as it stands I oppose this nomination for the reasons above. However, I don't see much constructive coming out my involvement here or edits to the article, so I'll just bow out and leave it to the deliberations of others. Jpmonroe (talk) 12:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment — Fantastic work, Tony. Keeps getting better, though I think it's passed into the boundaries of "too much of a good thing." I'd support splitting Kemp's football career off. I kind of feel that I share the blame, since I suggested expanding his football career the first time around, but I feel that it's definitely worth splitting off now. JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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