Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

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a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
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On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

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the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

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ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

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the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

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Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
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All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

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PeleYoetz

Moot, as a companion thread was referred to the Arbitration Committee. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning PeleYoetz

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: PeleYoetz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPIA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

New three-month old account, same old edit wars.

Zionism
- Removals of "colonization" and similar (partial list: editors who have been sanctioned recently or have pending reports at AE): Kentucky Rain24 (KR) June 6, האופה June 7, KR June 8, ABHammad June 10 (another), O.maximov June 11, האופה June 12, ABHammad July 2, O.maximov July 3, האופה July 4, Icebear244 July 4, [fully-protected July 11-14], ABHammad July 21 (predicate edit for #ABHammad report), PeleYoetz Aug 11 - first and only edit to the article with edit summary Reverted to the last stable version ...
- first and only talk page comment - There's clearly no consensus here ... I see 9-10 voices against the change.
  - Icebear244 Jul 4, filing the complaint against Nishidani: There is significant opposition to the proposed changes (at least 7 editors) evident on both the talk page and through repeated restorations of the last stable version.
  - Icebear244 later on Jul 4 clarifies it's 9, not 7: You seem to have overlooked @האופה, who also opposed using the term in the discussion, and it appears @Vegan416 did too.
  - האופה July 4: ... At least 7 editors clearly oppose this framing
  - Of the 9-10 editors, 3 have been blocked, 1 TBANed, 1 0RR, and 3 currently have pending AE reports
Israel - "various causes" / "various reasons": ABHammad Jun 23, האופה Jun 23, O.maximov Aug 3 (predicate edit for #O.maximov report), האופה Aug 6, PeleYoetz Aug 8 - first and only edit to the article, with edit summary there is no consensus for this new change. No talk page posts.
Israeli allegations against UNRWA
- האופה Aug 7 - removes it entirely in their first edit to the article with edit summary this article is about UNRWA involvement in October 7, not the history of Israeli-UNRWA relations, removing recently added material that totally changed the scope
  - They had not participated in the talk page discussion prior to reverting
  - One talk page message immediately prior to the revert: 1; more after: 2, 3, 4
- PeleYoetz Aug 7 - removes it entirely in their first and only edit to the article with edit summary the scope was changed without real discussion on the proposed change
  - They had not participated in the discussion on the talk page prior to reverting
  - Two talk page messages immediately prior to the revert: 1, 2

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics): July 21

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Outside of the editors I've reported to AE, in this topic area, right now, I don't believe you will find other examples of what this report shows: two editors, "Editor A" and "Editor B", where Editor B:

Repeats Editor A's edits, votes the same way as Editor A, or otherwise "backs up" Editor A
Three times at three different articles
At articles they've never edited before
Where they've also never before participated on the talk page
Where they contribute nothing to the article except backing up Editor A
Within the first few months of editing

We can even drop #6, I still don't think there's another example outside of what I've posted at AE lately. @Vanamonde93: Would it change your mind if, instead of three times, it was six times? Here are three more examples: A, B; A, B; A, B. As a bonus, here's a seventh example, this time the order is reversed: B, A. This is not normal editing; this isn't something other editors do. But if we allow this to happen, if we say this is an OK thing to do, then others will start doing it, too. Levivich (talk) 19:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Though PeleYoetz continued editing after I filed this report, they haven't edited since Van asked for their comment four days ago. FWIW I'm fine for this to be closed as moot if admins want to; if there is future disruption, I or someone else can ask for admin intervention if needed. Levivich (talk) 21:54, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: Special:Diff/1239832259

Discussion concerning PeleYoetz

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by PeleYoetz

Hello everyone,

I have to admit that I'm not entirely sure what's going on here. Most of my Wikipedia activity is focused on tourism and food-related topics. I've only made a few edits regarding the conflict, and since then, I've felt increasingly targeted. It began with Selfstudier questioning on my talk page how I found the UNRWA page, a topic that made headlines in my home country of Israel the same day (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APeleYoetz&diff=1239101772&oldid=1236281410). Then came this report by Levivich, which I still don't fully understand, and now I've received a strange question from Nableezy on my talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APeleYoetz&diff=1240399865&oldid=1239832259). I’m getting the impression that my contributions on the conflict are simply unwelcome.

If I've made any mistakes or violated Wikipedia policies, I'd appreciate it if someone could let me know. I've read through many pages before editing, and I hope I haven't done anything wrong.

Thank you. PeleYoetz (talk) 10:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

Until recently I had no real involvement with this editor other than giving an awareness notice in July. Just to add to Levivich diffs:

At Majdal Shams, First of two edits (inconsequential second edit a minute after that) to the article, nothing on talk page, arrives 2 minutes after האופה (aka HaOfa) edit and changes the SD from Town in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights -> Druze town in the northern Golan Heights, an obvious POV edit.

At Masada myth, shows up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Masada myth same day as nominated by HaOfa, no prior article edits or at talk page. Agrees with HaOfa.

Same pattern at Israeli allegations against UNRWA, no prior involvement and then consecutive reverts, HaOfa then PeleYoetz.

It is doubtful that this pattern is coincidental. PeleYoetz role appears to be as back up for HaOfa, to support their actions.

Statement by Sean.hoyland

I wish PeleYoetz had decided to say nothing rather than write about being targeted, having strange questions and being unwelcome. Now I need to ask whether it matters that an editor with ~1050 edits spread over ~380 different pages has 175 pages in common with topic banned and blocked editor User:Gilabrand?

Page intersections

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Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning PeleYoetz

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I don't see what action I could reasonably take here. The ideal approach to a content dispute is for all parties to engage substantively on the talk page until it's sorted, via RfC and outside input if needed. Across the ARBPIA conflict, editors don't do this; instead are slow-moving multi-party edit-wars, and considerable stonewalling on talk pages. When this behavior becomes egregious I'm open to sanctioning anyone and everyone involved, but I don't see anything here rising to that level. A lot of users could stand to engage better on the talk page(s). Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be interested to hear from PeleYoetz in light of the most recent diffs. As I've said elsewhere, agreement between parties heavily invested in the topic is to be expected; a similar pattern from editors not substantively engaged implies off-wiki coordination. Vanamonde93 (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm generally addressing this at #האופה since it's basically the same report, but these types of patterns are wildly easy to find looking at anyone who is involved in the topic area. In less than ten minutes I found more damning "evidence" for two other editors active in the topic. As I said there, if we're going to sanction based on these patterns it would have to be evenly enforced and boy howdy it would be a mess. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think tag-team edit-warring is disruptive. If regulars aren't willing to not be disruptive, then yeah, they've kind of forced our hand. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Close with no action, hopefully addressed at Arbcom? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:10, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting no action is the appropriate outcome or are you suggesting that refer to arbcom is the right outcome but since we're already there nothing more needs to be done? Barkeep49 (talk) 18:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The latter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Lima Bean Farmer

Lima Bean Farmer's topic ban on post-1992 American politics is successfully appealed, with a note that there will be little patience for any resumption of disruption. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Lima Bean Farmer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 04:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2020 § c-Dreamy Jazz-2020-12-19T12:38:00.000Z-American politics 2

Administrator imposing the sanction: Dreamy Jazz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [1]

Statement by Lima Bean Farmer

I am looking to appeal a topic ban on post-1992 American politics. These case would be more open and shut if there weren’t a more recent edit to this ban. The original ban was over 3 years ago for post-1932 American politics but was changed to post-1992 American politics over a year ago. I would like to edit in this section a bit more freely, and I have not faced any sanctions or other administrative action since then. I have made large structural edits to pages such as List of productions impacted by the 2023 Writers Guild of America strike and List of convicted war criminals, demonstrating my ability to work with other editors to come to consensus while also using reliable sources when and where appropriate. In summary, since my last appeal, I have demonstrated more frequent Wikipedia editing that follows guidelines, helps productive editing, and understanding consensus for the past year. Having knowledge in the topic of post-1992 politics, having this topic ban lifted would allow me greater freedom for productive editing. Thank you for your decision in advance! Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 04:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure if it is appropriate to reply here, but I would like to address that the reason I was indefinitely blocked was for socking. I do acknowledge that using an alternative account most times, but especially to evade a ban or block is wrong. I can assure it won’t happen again and I can assure that it hasn’t happened in the past 3+ years. Please let me know if this addresses your concern. Thank you Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 13:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I already spoke on the part of editing (please let me know if you’d like me to further clarify), but the indefinite ban was due to socking. I will avoid this issue by never editing with another account, especially to evade or bypass a block or ban. I can assure that I haven’t done this in the past 3+ years since the ban and can assure you that I won’t do it again in the future. Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 19:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ScottishFinnishRadish, I had to go back and check but it was a 3 month ban for “disruptive editing”. I believe this was due to a high volume of editing in this topics at that time and my edits/experience not being up to par. A mix of things caused this I believe, including edit warring/not using talk pages appropriately, not using edit summaries regularly, and adding unsourced content. All of these are things I have demonstrated at least some level of proficiency in over the past 3 years (although I am most definitely still learning a lot here) and have shown a commitment to becoming a better more productive editor. Thank you Lima Bean Farmer (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dreamy Jazz

Based on a quick look from their contributions and what others have said at WP:ARCA, it seems that Lima Bean Farmer has been editing constructively elsewhere.

However, the text of this appeal does not directly address the reasons why the indefinite topic ban was placed. I would, personally, like to see some acknowledgement of what led up to the topic ban and a commitment to not repeat the mistakes of the past.

For example, in their last appeal they said please don’t hold a grudge when asked about a comment they made while appealing their block. I would like to be sure that Lima Bean Farmer understands that we need to see that they have changed, and therefore we are not holding a grudge but instead want to be sure that the topic ban is no longer necessary. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 06:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As to socking, I have not run a check. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 06:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Lima Bean Farmer

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Lima Bean Farmer

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm generally amenable to appeals made after a few years, but I'm interested in Dreamy Jazz's thoughts, as well as if there has been any further socking. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lima Bean Farmer, can you please explain why the indefinite topic ban was placed and how you will avoid the same issues in the future? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And what were the issues that led to the original topic ban? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone else? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless anyone else objects, I'll be closing this as a successful appeal with a note that there will be little patience for any further disruption. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:54, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support this outcome. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:03, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be more enthusiastic in supporting the appeal if we weren't approaching the peak US political period. However, to move this forward I will support the appeal while noting that there won't be much patience in the area of post-1992 American politics for the foreseeable future. Johnuniq (talk) 03:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lemabeta

Lemabeta is indefinitely topic-banned from the history of the Caucasus and its cultural heritage, broadly construed. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 15:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Lemabeta

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Vanezi Astghik (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Lemabeta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

15 August 2024: Reverts to their original POV WP:OR. The problem with these are: “Armeno-Georgian” or Mamikonian roots is supported by the sources in the article (including 3 in the lede), yet the user removes the “Armeno” part and adds doubt to Mamkionian roots for no reason (second time now), engaging in WP:TE and WP:OR.
10 June 2024: Removes content based on “outdated” source Brosset, 1849. FYI, it's the same source that's used for Georgian origins [2]; apparently it's outdated for one thing, but can stay for another.
10 June 2024: Adds “cn” templates to existing sources and adds unexplained doubt.
15 August 2024: Removes material that's in the body; this after being specifically called out for selective POV-pushing in the previous edits and shown an additional modern WP:RS in the same comment (which was added to the article), RS that literally supported the info they removed.
24 July 2024: Another WP:TE and WP:OR push by changing sourced material under the guise of “WP:NEUTRALITY violation”. If you read the book's page, it literally says; “These three men, Davit Soslan, Zakare and Ivane Mkhargrdzeli restored the kingdom to a position of conquest”.
13 August 2024: undue Georgian POV with an “Agritourism guide” book despite the lede already having 2 sources, including a far better book from Oxford University that specializes in cheeses and states (including with a quote already in the ref); “Twisted string cheese, chechil panir, husats, or tel cheese are Armenian pasta filata cheeses,…”.
15 August 2024: Reverts to their undue POV now with WP:PRIMARY Georgian government source; this comes after they were shown the quote from the better secondary source that’s in the lede already which doesn’t support their POV.
29 June 2024: WP:OR removes any mention of Armenian from 1st paragraph and adds unexplained doubt, with OR opinionated summary “Armenocentric article”.
5 July: Removes any mention of Armenian and adds WP:OR doubt, no explanation.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on March 8, 2024

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Lemabeta has been pushing heavy Georgian POV in Armenia-Georgia articles, while downplaying Armenia/Armenians, WP:OR changes of sourced material / adding WP:OR doubt to sources, disregard of sources, or removal of sourced material. I think it’s time AE reviews Lemabeta’s behavior; I’ve tried to talk with them but to no avail, usually they revert and restore their original problematic edits, or push new POV.

Makes personal attacks during AE; "If you could read, you would see that...".

Adds more unexplained WP:OR doubt [3] to a WP:RS during AE.

Response to [4]: I don't think saying the user seemed eager to be blocked was a threat as the user was edit-warring [5], [6] during AE despite not having consensus for changing stable version or adding weaker sources that were directly challenged on talk, thus violating WP:ONUS.

I believe this comment is content related which is intended for talk pages.

Lemabeta claims "I simply didn't look at the sources of other sentences...", but they literally put "cn" tags on everything in this section (even when mostly sourced) excluding the Georgian origins paragraph which had the most outdated source; funny how the only paragraph they "didn't look" suits their POV. And even after, when I added better (modern/expert) source and told them about it [7], they still removed content sourced by it [8] and then put doubt on it [9]. Vanezi (talk) 03:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[10]

Discussion concerning Lemabeta

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Lemabeta

1)Cyril Toumanoff work is cited in the source, while Cyril himself never says that the Tumanishvili house was an Armenian house, but rather he says that the origins of Tumanishvili house go back to Mamikonians who Cyril considers to have originated in Georgia specifically in Zaneti region, he in his work mentions that the root of the last name Mamikonian - Mamik comes from the Georgian language theory which is also accepted by the famous Armenian historian - Nicholas Adontz, they both connected the roots of Mamikonians and therefore roots of Tumanishvili to Georgian - Lazs .^[1] ^[2] Which was deleted by the individual reporting me.

2-3-4)The Pro-Armenian POV pushing is visible from the 2nd reference link he inserted---> [11] as you can see the he wrote that the "The Albano-Armenian theory is mostly accepted today, Adarnase being the first independent sovereign of Hereti, which was most likely an Armenian territory beforehand and followed the Monophysitism of Albanians and Armenians instead of the Christian Orthodoxy of the Bagrationis" meanwhile adding a source of Brosset, Marie-Félicité who lived in 19th century, by what standards is this considered as a "modern historians" - plural. Moreover, theory of Brosset is denounced today as he wasn't aware of the medieval works of historians attributing Adarnase of Hereti to Chosroid dynasty of Caucasus, which i inserted in the newer changes, which was completely deleted by the individual reporting me.therefore theory that isn't accepted by most, shouldn't be in the leading.

While Heretian Georgians are still presentHeretians or Ingiloys descendants of a legendary Heros, he keeps changing the Kingdom of Hereti ethnic affiliation to "South Caucasian" to a broader term than Georgian is. Meanwhile in modern historiography Kingdom of Hereti is considered as a Georgian monarchy 5) reference which he inserted [12] --- Since when is NPOV wording of a sentence considered as Armenophobia? But he wants to make it look like Armenian and Alan were the only reason of success of Kingdom of Georgia.

6)-7) Now let's talk about the deletion of sourced material by the individual reporting me. [13] Whole sourced etymology section was removed, because it didn't fit the pro-Armenian narrative he's pushing. Moreover, on Chechili geographical indication is registered in Georgia, protecting the origins of Chechili, which i wrote according to the articles such as Champagne. Chechili origins and GI are protected in more than 30 countries.

8)Melikishvili-Melikov was never known as-Melikyan.Melikov was a russified form of Melikishvili after it was written by Heraclius II as part of Georgian nobility in treaty of Georgievsk^[3]

9)Wikipedia:No personal attacks violation by him "So you have nothing else to do but to edit war again after posting a ridiculous WP:OR rant on a clear scholar"[14] also violations are seen here by using offensive language[15]

"if you could read" isn't an insult. It's same as "If you may" or to politely ask someone. Lemabeta (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lemabeta (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[16] also the threatening to get me blocked "Seems like you're just eager to get blocked ot topic-banned" Lemabeta (talk) 10:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to Rosguill's initial comment I simply didn't look at the sources of other sentences due to the busy schedule involving my masters degree exams. Now that i am aware of the poorly written article, i will take my part in and contribute to the richening of Adarnase Sumbatashvili page, especially because i am a direct descendant of his paternal line. Lemabeta (talk) 17:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In reply to Rosguill's comment So it's better to have an unargumentative and a provocational claim stated as an absolute fact in an article than to delete it? It should have been discussed in a talk page if there was something wrong with my edit instead of accusing me and reporting me of anything firstly.

Moreover, in the talk page [[17]] he had a problem over Kingdom of Hereti being refered to as a Georgian kingdom, thats where the problem lies, thats why he was writing King as "South Caucasian" and Kingdom as "South Caucasian" kingdom. If you want to topic ban me, do it. But my honor in front of god is clean and you can not change that--Lemabeta (talk) 07:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Армения в эпоху Юстиниана: Политическое состояние на основе Нахарского строя, СПб., 1908, cт. 402-404 (Nicholas Adontz, Armenia in the Period of Justinian: The political Conditions Based on the Naxarar System. Trans. into Eng. with expanded notes, bibliography, and appendices by Nina G. Garsoian, Lisbon, 1970)
^ (Toumanoff 1963, p. 211, n. 23.).
^ (in Russian) Stanislav Vladimirovich Dumin. Pyotr Grebelsky. The Noble Houses of the Russian Empire. Moscow, Russia: 1994. Думин С. В., Гребельский П. Х. Дворянские роды Российской Империи. — Москва, 1994

Statement by Spinney Hill

It is possible that this cheese is traditionally made in both Armenia and Georgia or that each country claims to be the origin. Something similar may be the case with Gruyere, which is certainly made in Switzerland and France although this is not quite reflected in the wp article on that cheese. See the following source Larousse gastronomique p534 English edition published by Hamlyn (London) 1988 translated from the 1984 French edition.ISBN 0 600 32390 0 More on this source later. .I do not have the sources OUP or the Tbilisi equivalent relied on by the two editors so I cannot comment. I have not seen any other articles on Armenian or Georgian subjects they may have clashed on. The online sources are inconclusive. At an early stage in the argument I put in a piece based on a British Government source showing that Britain recognised a kind of chechill was made in Georgia. I also found a general source which showed it was "a European and Central Asian cheese" suggesting it was made anywhere and everywhere from the west of Ireland an Portugal to Mongolia. I put a sentence in mentioning this but I am considering withdrawing this as it does not seem accurate. I am a cheese lover but I have never seen or tasted it in UK where I live nor any of the other western or central European countries I have been to (even Greece) The only other sources my Google search revealed were cheese selling sites which revealed the cheese was also made in US, Turkey (I think), Bulgaria.and South Africa! I have searched my copy of Larousse gastronomique-see above. The article on cheese does not mention chechil, nor does it mention Georgia or Armenia. Chechill does not have its own article as do many cheeses such as Gruyere, Stilton and Gorgonzola, nor do Armenia or Georgia. I also searched Russia as this is a 1984 book and both countries were part of the USSR . Here it says Georgia was home to a hard cheese called tuchouri.. No cheese is mentioned for Armenia. The only other "Russian" cheese mentioned is Sovietski which has its own article and which presumably is either no longer made or has been renamed.. I think both parties have shown intemperate, but both have made some valid points and surely a compromise article should be arrived at showing that the cheese is made in both countries. I am not sure if an origin can be stated with accuracy. Spinney Hill (talk) 14:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC) I think Tbillisi University is quite capable of having an independent unbiased publishing arm. It is no longer part of the USSR or even Russia.Spinney Hill (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Lemabeta

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Vanezi Astghik, you're at about 670 words. Please trim to 500, and consider whether you'd like to save some words for future replies. Lemabeta, you're right at the limit; do not respond further. Both of you can request an extension, but I wouldn't recommend it at this time. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While at first blush I was tempted to say that this was just a content dispute and should be resolved via RfC, I am concerned by Lemabeta's responses. With regard to point 2 in particular, this is the state of the article as of when Lemabeta began to edit it. While it's valid to contest the validity of a 19th century source, it is glaring that this source already comprises 2/3 of the citations in the article, including, as noted in the initial report, the specific claims of Bagratoni/Georgian heritage. It's hard to assume good faith of the objections to the sourcing of other claims to these same sources. I'm also dissatisfied with Lemabeta's response listed as "6-7", as, irrespective of the merits of the underlying edits, in this context Lemabeta's addition of content could be taken as the continuation of an edit war for a matter actively, so accusing Vanezi of deletion of sourced material seems a bit off base--at this juncture, adding the material was not appropriate: it should have been discussed, and potentially resolved via RfC if a consensus could not be reached between the two of you and other editors watching the article. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 16:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lemabeta, at AE replies are not threaded (except occasionally between admins); new comments should be placed in your own section (I have moved the substantive portion of yours already as a courtesy). You're also a bit over your word limit--rather than request that you retract or rephrase, I'm just going to issue Vanezi Astghik a commensurable 50-word extension so that you're both allowed the same amount. Please do not reply further in this case unless addressed directly for comment _signed,Rosguill ^talk 22:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having now actually reviewed the content of Lemabeta's response, I don't find this explanation persuasive at all given the length of the article at the time and the position of the content edited vs other content that had previously been the crux of the dispute. And even if it were persuasive, it would still be a violation of the WP:CTOP instruction to edit carefully--if you're so rushed that you overlook such an obvious issue with your edit, you shouldn't be editing this topic. I'd appreciate other admins' input, but am currently leaning toward a topic ban on history of the Caucasus, including the history of its cultural heritage, broadly construed. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 22:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, although possibly only an article-space topic ban, leaving them an allowance to engage on talk pages, as there is no evidence of talk page disruption given. That said, bespoke sanctions of that sort seldom work, and create more work for the others in the topic area, so I'm also fine with the standard topic ban. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just based on the diffs coming since the awareness notice, I'm seeing actionable POV-pushing. The legalese OR at places like Talk:Chechil#Georgian origins of the cheese is disruptive enough that I'd favor a standard topic ban, though I'm happy to see it kept as narrow as Rosguill's suggestion. It is reflective of the problem that Lemabeta has worsened their word limit violation despite the direct instructions from myself and Rosguill. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers, @ScottishFinnishRadish, I’m not sure we’re interpreting my proposal the same way. My thinking was that the scope needs to be “Caucasus”, rather than Georgia or Armenia, because the pattern of editing suggests to me that if banned from those topics, they would likely continue similar disruption by editing to remove the claims of other neighboring culture groups that compete with Georgia’s. I included the extra clause about “history of its cultural heritage” as I anticipate that without such a stipulation we’ll see a breaching attempt at an article like Chechil with the argument that it’s “not history”. While of course such a move could be sanctioned (although in my experience more likely than not it would result in just a final stern warning), getting ahead of it now would save us some wikilawyering. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 12:57, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's how I interpreted it. I'd prefer that over an article-only ban. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish, is this option amenable to you, at least as a second choice? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:28, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm fine with that. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Johnrpenner

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Johnrpenner

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Tgeorgescu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Johnrpenner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPS

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

[18] 21 August 2024—violates WP:PSCI by immunizing Anthroposophy from falsification through performing WP:OR (seeks to reject the label of pseudoscience through attempting to make it look like a category mistake—but not according to any WP:RS)
a lot of previous edits at the same article, 21 August 2024, see e.g. [19], having the edit summary cutting like a knife between physics and metaphysics

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on [20] 2 May 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Wikipedia is a collaborative environment—up to a point. We don't seek to "collaborate" with those who breach our WP:RULES with impunity. More to the point: Johnrpenner is violating WP:RULES such as WP:PSCI and WP:OR. If he thinks I'm wrong, he should WP:CITE mainstream WP:RS to that extent. Merely giving us his own opinion won't do. Again: his assertion that the label of pseudoscience is a category mistake, is solely based upon his own opinion. He did not WP:CITE anything to that extent. Even if his POV were the unvarnished truth, he still does not have WP:RS to that extent.
@Theleekycauldron: Until May 2024, I had no idea that Penner is a Wikipedia editor. In respect to what you say: I would accept a restriction of 1RR and a limit of 500 words per topic. Also, you have to consider that these Anthroposophists overtly stated they want me banned from Anthroposophy, so, while they knew they stand no chance in respect to their own edits, they were merely flamebaiting. Anthroposophists are generally speaking highly educated people, so if they behave as too dumb for their credentials, it is a token they are merely acting a show. Playing dumb and employing vicious libel (flamebait) is justified, according to them, since they are defending the public image of Anthroposophy. I mean: for a university-educated Lead Technical Writer it would be easy-peasy to understand they're breaching website policy. And if I lambasted them for failing to do so, my criticism was genuine and to the point. What do they stand to lose, here at Wikipedia? A bunch of disposable accounts. Since both Johnrpenner and the previous Anthroposophist at WP:AE are extremely fond of performing WP:OR—I don't think that's just a coincidence. When multiple accounts misunderstand Wikipedia in the same way, we may suspect they're WP:MEAT.
@Ealdgyth: It was not intended as mockery. I don't think he is unintelligent, and if he appears as unintelligent, that's for flamebaiting purposes (just to make me angry).
Full disclosure: there was an off-wiki hounding campaign against me, see [21], [22], and Talk:Anthroposophy#Evidence—which I now came to see as flamebaiting. Its objectives are overtly stated: recruit other editors against me and get me banned from Wikipedia. So, I see my opponents at these articles as an organized campaign, starting with October 2023, or even earlier. The only damage I did to Wikipedia is extensively bickering about being hounded. It is rather unusual for Wikipedia that a cult organizes off-wiki to take action against a specific editor.
If I get banned from Anthroposophy, the "Fortress Steiner" (here) will regain its upper hand. Anti-fringe editors will be reluctant to intervene, since they lack a deep understanding of the topic. So I will have to get unbanned as the only person able to restore order. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[23] 21 August 2024

Discussion concerning Johnrpenner

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Johnrpenner

after making additions to the 'Anthroposophy' article — user tgeorgescu deleted / reverted my edits, and so i took it on to the talk page, asking him: instead of just deleting a whole bunch of stuff, why not engage in something more constructive? he did not engage in a friendly fashion, and quickly shut me down, and launched this Arbitration request against me.

if i were writing an article on the phenomenolgy of colour — i would expect to see criticism and debate — but i would also expect to see some effort in improving the article — doing what wikipedia does — helping provide some sense of the topic, which covers a neutral and informed point of view.

user tgeorgescu has expended considerable effort solely directed towards attacking and finding sources discrediting Anthroposophy (hundreds upon hundreds of edits.. almost as if it were some sort of personal vendetta). if one sees only efforts directed at this — then i might also question how neutral things are — when i dont see as much effort towards contributing anything that might help provide insight on the given topic.

tgeorgescu claims category error — and my claim is that anthroposophy is no more scientific than the subject of philosophy. in my edits — i did not dispute or remove his claims, and took care to preserve his references/links and to make it clear that anthroposophy is not scientific.

i believe i was following the wiki principle as stated in WP:RNPOV — as follows:

WP:RNPOV § Neutrality: In the case of beliefs and practices, Wikipedia content should not only encompass what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices but also account for how such beliefs and practices developed. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from religion's sacred texts as primary sources and modern archaeological, historical, and scientific works as secondary and tertiary sources.

in short — this issue could have been more constructively solved with some friendly edits aimed at improving the article, and making a subject more understandable — for example:

i) what are the epistemogical differences which distinguish anthroposophy from critical idealism?

ii) from whom did steiner get the idea — the article mentioned 'German Idealism', but neglected to mention Goethe.

iii) the article talks about 'perception of the spiritual world' — but it fails to mention the key role Anthroposophists place on Intuition in this regard.

these would all be useful things to know if i was a reader and unfamiliar with the subject.

instead, tgeorgescu has undertaken to report me to arbitration — i find it disingenous to spend such an inordinate amount of time logging in such an amount of effort cataloguing all criticisms against Anthroposophy — without making any efforts towards providing the reader with a better comprehension of what is being criticized — the criticisms and critics tgeorgescu has referenced only makes a case for condemning Anthroposophists — and deleting or reverting edits which disagree with him — and ultimately weaponizing the wiki process — which i find is generally quite fair, and i expect someone might be able to follow up and arbitrate his disproportionate critical activity, and attacks against users like myself which are trying to make honest contributions (as i have helped improve numerous other wiki articles, and believe in the wiki process).

i have no complaint against a good critical review of contributions to wikipedia - good editors, good referencing, and the good will to work together instead of shutting people down is what makes wikipedia great and useful. please, lets work together, and find a way to make better articles. peace out. Johnrpenner (talk) 03:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by fiveby

tgeorgescu could use some help at Talk:Anthroposophy in trying to nip problems in the bud before they escalate. See this this FTN thread from November of last year (maybe just read Hob Gadling's comment at the end of the collapsed "Extended content") All that effort expended when it turns out an editor was just using phony citations for content. When he raises issues at FTN i at least often feel behind the curve with an unfamiliar topic, and tgeorgescu usually seems to be going it alone on the talk page. I don't know if AE can do anything to help and maybe the answer here is just to remember to watchlist the articles and pay more attention. fiveby(zero) 06:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by KoA

I want to echo's fiveby's sentiment above, and I would caution admins to be mindful to check out what they link at FTN. I’ve been noticing that problem at the noticeboards and tgeorgescu’s frustration too often handling a lot of fringe stuff and now apparently becoming a target off-wiki for it.

theleekycauldron, I am concerned about your comments here at this time in the AE and making them in the uninvolved admin section. I reviewed the talk page[24], and the only recent dispute was from this interaction at Talk:Anthroposophy#Violation_of_WP:PSCI. However, I couldn't verify any of your claims made without diffs there such as bludgeoning talk pages, going on long-winded "own the crazies" rants, insulting other editors, so that was a serious red flag when I instead saw tgeorgescu making very short replies and largely behaving properly at the time. The only little knock against them was that they should have stopped interacting before the I have already reported you at WP:AE. . . comment, but even those comments are relatively chill compared to your characterization. If there are recent diffs prior to when you commented, those are absolutely needed, because when I see a mismatch like that in depiction, that looks a lot more like battleground pursuit on your part that we'd typically see of involved editors behaving poorly. If anything, it looks like tgeorgescu's talk page use had actually vastly improved and it wasn't until you started needling tgeorgescu with your initial comment that they got off the rails here at AE. At least as I've tried to review this report with an even hand, you created more heat than light.

However tgeorgescu, I do have some advice after seeing your comments on talk pages over the years. Remember to center yourself on the ideas of WP:NOTFORUM/WP:FOC more often on article talk pages. I have seen you give in-depth answers at times when not needed or just posting on the talk page not clearly tied to any edit.[25] Sometimes I've seen you come back for an "and another thing" comment when the conversation was just likely to die. I saw that before your warning theleekycauldron mentions, and it looks like you've been vastly improving in what I've reviewed so far. That said, be careful about personalizing comments about editors or how comments might appear to be a battleground mentality. That too creates more heat than light like I just cautioned theleekycauldron. When I look at the AE after their comment, you brought up that you felt like you were being trolled by Johnrpenner at the article with comments like so if they behave as too dumb for their credentials. Even if you feel like that, don't take the WP:BAIT. You honestly were fine from what I can see initially until your interactions with theleekycauldron here. It wasn't until that moment I was seeing AE comments with a bit too much bite towards editors, so it didn't appear anything WP:PREVENTATIVE was needed on your part to that point. KoA (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish, I'm right at the word limit, so I'll leave it at this just to say the issue I saw was that when you look at recent edits before this AE (most stuff mentioned here is pretty stale or minor), it really did look like tgeorgescu was improving significantly in the last few months (especially the very last talk section at the page before AE) compared to the period of their warning or when I even told them to chill out on the treatises awhile back. Whatever threads the needle between "you've made some good improvements in mainspace/talk" and "you've still got scaling back to do" will be helpful here for a grounded approach. KoA (talk) 20:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Johnrpenner

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Looks like tgeorgescu is exhibiting the exact same behavior that landed them a logged warning for battleground behavior and incivility nine months ago. that's a shame, because they seem to solidly be in the right that Johnrpenner is only here to push a pseudoscientific POV. If Tgeorgescu doesn't agree to stop bludgeoning talk pages, going on long-winded "own the crazies" rants, insulting other editors, and generally behaving as if yelling at people about how wrong and stupid they are is the best way to make them go away, the pseudoscience topic area will lose a valuable editor. perhaps a topic ban from Anthroposophy is in order, since the last row took place there as well. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support topic banning Johnrpenner from Anthroposophy, broadly construed. Also support restricting tgeorgescu within ARBPS, broadly construed, such that they may not write more than 500 words across discussions related to this topic area (not 500 words per thread) in a calendar month; and placing them under 1RR. They are reminded to seek out admins before engaging in disruptive behavior in their attempts to combat disruptive behavior. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:52, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KoA: I'm taking my cues from this thread. Some of it was from before Johnrpenner was a wikipedian (although this isn't), but I don't think it'd be ridiculous to say that it's relevant to the onwiki portion of this spat. I'm also considering the sum of other threads they've started since the SamwiseGSix AE thread. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tgeorgescu - first, "A more nuanced view of how I see Anthroposophy:" has no bearing on how you should be editing. Your personal views are no more useful than the personal views of Johnrpenner or any other editors. In fact, you state later in this very filing that "Merely giving us his own opinion won't do" so putting your views here isn't helpful to the admins looking into your filing. Further, with "Malcontents should not blame me for what full professors write" you are continuing to describe other editors (I think? It's hard to tell if you're referring to other editors or merely folks who subscribe to Anthroposophy, but either way it's a sign of battleground behavior) as "malcontents". You were warned for this last November. Here's another unhelpful comment "I mean: for a university-educated Lead Technical Writer it would be easy-peasy to understand they're breaching website policy." ... you're clearly mocking the editor who you filed this against. Really, this battleground approach needs to stop.
Okay, so to the edit that is given as the basis for this filing: this edit, I see a description of the subject sourced to a pile of what appear to be independent reliable sources (at a quick glance) that is being replaced with stuff sourced to Steiner's own works. Also, I see that "Though proponents claim to present their ideas in a manner that is verifiable by rational discourse and say that they seek precision and clarity comparable to that obtained by scientists investigating the physical world, many of these ideas have been termed pseudoscientific by experts in epistemology and debunkers of pseudoscience." this sentence (which is sourced to the pile of independent sources) is replaced with "Anthroposophy does not belong to the study of the physical sciences, any more than Plato's Metaphysics should be considered Physics — doing so would be pseudoscientific" while still sourcing it to the same pile of reliable sources. This is source mis-representation unless each of those sources actually supports this new text (I'll go on a limb here and say it likely doesn't). On the griping hand, though, Johnrpenner isn't exactly a prolific editor - his edit count is around 1700, but they are widely spread out and mostly appear to relate to Goethe. While they are not editing well, I'm not sure they've had a chance to learn that wikipedia isn't a philosphical debating place. They need to learn to edit well with others, but either a topic ban from the narrow topic of Anthroposophy or a warning about their editing there would probably be fine. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Topic ban for Johnrpenner sounds good. I don't necessarily disagree about a word limit for Tgeorgescu, but I'm not sure it's going to work or be easy to enforce. Call me agnostic on it. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A topic ban for Johnrpenner from Anthroposophy is reasonable, and some sort of anti-bludgeon/anti-thousands of words restriction on Tgeorgescu wouldn't be amiss either. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
KoA, just as an example of a long-winded "own the crazies" rants see User:Tgeorgescu#My quarrel with anthroposophists, or Talk:Anthroposophy#Category. I'd be interested in scaling back that type of engagement with the topic. I don't know if a word limit per month or discussion would be helpful, but even some advice or a warning might help. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So the topic ban has consensus. How do we want to move forward with Tgeorgescu? Another warning, or something with a bit more oomph? I like the gist of Theleekycauldron's idea, but I don't know how we'd ever track it.

On a broader note, this issue comes up a lot where a milder sanction might be able to end disruptive behavior, but we end up warning a few times instead, and eventually we hit a tipping point and we end up with a more severe sanction. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Johnrpenner has been an editor since 2005 but is not yet experienced, having under 1800 edits. Their first edits (example from April 2005) concerned Rudolf Steiner, the founder of Anthroposophy. The current edits are not appropriate and I support a topic ban from articles related to Rudolf Steiner, or just Anthroposophy if others support that. I have spent time advising tgeorgescu that they should cut back on excessive commentary but in checking a couple of recent discussions, I could not see a problem. We need editors like tgeorgescu who are able and willing to keep articles based on reliable sources so my only suggestion in that area is that I would be happy to investigate if anyone wants to draw my attention to a future discussion where a participant might be overdoing it. I agree that ScottishFinnishRadish's links just above ("own the crazies") show excessive enthusiasm: tgeorgescu should stick to verifiable facts related to current editing proposals. Johnuniq (talk) 04:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

TenPoundHammer

By consensus of uninvolved administrators, TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs) is reminded, as presently topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed, to not make comments on noticeboards or elsewhere on Wikipedia that suggest editors take an article to AfD. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 01:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning TenPoundHammer

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Morbidthoughts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 07:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1)

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

22:31, 25 August 2024‎: Using BLPN for WP:PROXYING: "Seems to have had his fingers in a few pies but nothing passing WP:GNG. Strongly suggest prod or AFD."

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I don't see these types of prompts including the three that Nil Einne listed as being different from what got JPL blocked.[26] Morbidthoughts (talk) 19:01, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[27]

Discussion concerning TenPoundHammer

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by TenPoundHammer

I can see how my statements are my topic ban. It's why I backed off with the Jonathan Prince discussion. I know it's not the first time I brought something to BLPN with an implication that it be AFD'd, either. I agree that my topic-ban from XFD and BLAR is justifiable, and I'm trying to work within the limits of it, but I can see how taking something to BLPN and saying "anyone wanna AFD this" is dubious. Would verbiage on BLPN akin to "here's what I found or didn't find; what do you think should be done with this page?" be more acceptable?

I am considering drafting up an appeal to be submitted in due time and a game plan to tackle my history of XFD problems, although I'm not sure how something like this is going to weigh on it.

I think opening this discussion in this manner is way overboard, especially since I did catch myself and realize that what I was doing was dubious before I went any further. I move that this be closed as I feel this entire discussion is a massive overreaction and it seems I'm not alone in thinking so, as Barkeep49 and ScottishFinnishRadish pointed out.

Statement by Nil Einne

I have no clear opinion on whether TenPoundHammer's editing is a violation but FWIW this isn't the first time they've brought articles to BLPN either directly mentioning AFD or deletion as a possibility [28] (Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Kristan Cunningham) & [29] (Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive360#Rossi Morreale) or where they didn't but did suggest the article did not meet GNG [30] (Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive360#Myrlin Hermes). In all of those other 3, at least one editor has seen enough of a problem that the article was deleted after AFD (in 2 cases) or BLARed (in 1 case). But while recognising unsourced BLPs are a problem, I've never been convinced of the wisdom of TenPoundHammer doing this in light of their topic ban. And IMO, at a minimum if it continues, TenPoundHammer really should disclose their topic ban when opening these threads so anyone reading the thread is aware of the circumstances. However I've never spoken to them about my concerns as I wasn't that active for most of it, and even now I'm trying to limit my activity. It looks like no one else has spoken to them either. Nil Einne (talk) 08:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning TenPoundHammer

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I think TPH should be able to post at BLPN. What they should not do is make what are essentially AfD nomination statements with a nudge for someone else to go and nominate. TPH needs to knock that off and perhaps just ask for their tban to be repealed or loosened. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, this is close enough to the edge that I wouldn't leap to an immediate sanction. A solid "Hey, knock that off" will probably be enough at this point. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support closing this as TenPoundHammer is advised that they should not post comments suggesting an AfD. Johnuniq (talk) 04:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Toa Nidhiki05 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Toa Nidhiki05 14:21, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: Topic ban from BLPs related to post-1992 American politics, broadly construed, imposed at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive327#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Toa Nidhiki05 and logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2022#American politics 2

Administrator imposing the sanction: Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), Guerillero (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: [31] [32]

Statement by Toa Nidhiki05

Since my topic ban was scaled back to only include BLPs, I've engaged in a lot of productive discussion and editing within the AMPol 2 topic area. Probably the biggest achievement has been consensus at Republican Party (United States) and Democratic Party (United States) on political positions - ending a dispute that has been ongoing for over a decade - but I've also engaged in routine maintenance and vandalism removal across the topic a. Lifting the restriction on BLPs would allow me to do the same in the entire scope of AMPol 2, including handling the sorts of routine vandalism that occurs on political BLPs. I think my pattern of behavior and achievements in the seven months or so since the ban has shown my general commitment to productive behavior and conduct within the topic area. Toa Nidhiki05 14:21, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To respond quickly to starship.paint: from my recollection, that first bit was in a fairly contentious period where frequent edits were being made, and discussion on the talk page was ongoing. The day of those edits the discussion was this (Proposal: "Big tent" for both parties), and edits I made there were in response to talk page discussion on the matter - specifically, in response to comments byCarlp941 and BootsED. The tl:dr of the broader dispute at hand was that a consensus had been reached to add content to the main page, but the consensus didn't actually follow specific reliable sources. After further research and discussion, this consensus was modified pursuant to reliable sources. During the interim period here, the page was fairly tumultuous on both mainspace and talkspace. If there was a technical 1RR violation there, I apologize, although the full context of talk page discussions is important here.

As to ongoing reverts - many of these are responding to vandalism or source hijacking maintenance. Unfortunately, political party pages are frequently subject to drive-by edits from users or IPs, specifically in the "ideology" or "faction" section of said pages. The most common mode of operation is to delete reliably sourced content or add content (without adjusting current reliable sources - creating the misconception existing sources support it). These drive-by editors generally do not explain their edit, nor do they stay behind to discuss. As it stands, we have strong consensus on the page for specific wordings in these sections, hashed out either through discussion or RfCs. Other reverts in this thread are generally in response to specific issues with sourcing or the addition of incorrect information/removal of correct information. I could provide context for each one if you absolutely desired - most of them were hashed out on the talk page. But broadly I would just categorize this as maintenance of a page that receives a lot of edits. Toa Nidhiki05 17:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To respond succinctly, starship.paint:

The first one you listed ([33]) is two things: unexplained removal of reliably sourced content with a talk page consensus (removing center-right - very sloppy at that, as they didn't remove the citations), and also source hijacking (adding that only the "the populist faction" of the party receives support from specific groups).
The second one ([34]) kind of relates to question on whether party platforms in and of themselves are the most reliable source for what parties support. As far as I know this dispute has not actually been resolved, but the other editor in question here, JohnAdams1800, noted the specific dispute in the second edit ended with an impasse on amiable terms. I'd consider this broadly a low-level dispute, personally. Toa Nidhiki05 02:45, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So for those specifically starship.paint:

For June 24, the sources don't actually back up the claims. Putting aside how poorly worded "it has been argued" is (who is arguing this?), the sources cited don't actually mention neoconservatism or populism at all. Just try searching either - you won't find it. There might be merit to talking about factional divides, but those added sources don't back up the claim, which means the content can't be added.
For July 31, that was part of the low-level neoliberalism dispute JohnAdams1800 mentioned (see: this talk page discussion). Several editors objected to identifying the party as having a core ideology of protectionism. The discussion kind of stalled out and is probably worth looking more closely into. On the face of it that content you mention could be noteworthy and I might have been too reckless in reverting the whole thing, but it's also not an especially important bit of information (USMCA was a fairly major trade deal, and the Biden admin isn't really noteworthy to what the GOP views trade as). Toa Nidhiki05 13:30, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

Statement by Guerillero

Statement by starship.paint

I thought I should support if Toa has not been involved in much controversy. Toa's talk page archives does have one controversy, a violation of 1RR on 19 June (another controversy is present but I think it was minor and resolved). 1RR: 01:34 / 21:35 / 21:35 again Since then, Toa has carried out a high number of reverts at the same article. 24 June / 25 June / 2 July / 3 July / 15 July / 21 July / 22 July / 24 July / 29 July / 31 July / 11 August / 15 August / 19 August / 20 August / I am not saying these reverts are bad, but perhaps we can get Toa's comments on the above (1RR and the volume of reverts). starship .paint (RUN) 15:06, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I skimmed through the "Proposal: "Big tent" for both parties" discussion and your reverts above. On the surface, based on the arguments brought forth and the sources brought forth, it seems that Toa's editing is within the bounds of reasonableness. But, perhaps Toa can offer more explanation for these three diffs in particular, as they seem to be separate from the issues in the other diffs: 24 July / 29 July / 31 July. starship .paint (RUN) 02:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Toa, for the 24 June diff, I was actually interested on the part that you did not respond about. You removed However, it has been argued that the preference of urban voters, college graduates and high-income earners continues to favor non-populist Republicans from the neoconservative establishment Reference 1 and Reference 2. For the 31 July diff, you, in part, removed As of 2024, the last free trade agreement enacted was the USMCA in 2020, which replaced NAFTA while maintaining most of its provisions. No other free trade agreements have been enacted during the Trump or Biden administrations Reference starship .paint (RUN) 03:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've now read the sources and Toa's explanation and I am satisfied with the explanation. At this moment I am supporting the repeal of the topic ban unless some other significant evidence is brought up that would force me to re-evaluate my position. starship .paint (RUN) 08:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JohnAdams1800

I'm commenting about this appeal, but don't know the full details about this dispute. I agree with User talk:Toa Nidhiki05 that our edit dispute was a low-level dispute, specifically regarding support for neoliberalism by the Republican Party over time. We have both made thousands of edits, and occasional edit conflicts are bound to arise. The pages about political parties and politicians are among the most contentious pages, with edit conflicts much more frequent. Users often try to impose their own views when editing. I personally don't edit most BLPs of politicians. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:55, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BootsED

I want to speak out in support of Toa Nidhiki05. I am surprised that there is a ban on Toa's contribution to post-1992 United States politics in place, as I found the work he did on the Republican Party page to be very well done and reasoned. I found his comments during a debate on the "factions" of the party helpful, constructive, and showing out-of-the-box thinking that greatly helped us better understand the problem at hand. I even left a positive note of thanks on his talk page.

In regards to the revert violation, my understanding is that it occurred near the end of the 24-hour period and was an honest mistake. Toa really took to improving the factions and political position section of the article and if my memory serves me correctly, there was a lot of back and forth from editors during this time, some of whom were confused or mistaken about what was discussed as the discussion on the topic at hand had gotten disorganized on the talk page and spread out over multiple sections.

While a lot of editors simply used their own personal opinion or low-quality references, Toa stuck to finding and providing higher-quality journal articles that helped ground the debate. Looking back at Toa's original ban, I think I understand how editing on Wikipedia can make people very frustrated, especially when some individuals are quite clearly either trolling or mistaken. I think that understanding intent is an important aspect to consider when punishing editors, and while obviously one should always strive to maintain proper decorum, I think that Toa's heart and intent on Wikipedia is in the right place and deserving of this appeal. BootsED (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 1)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Toa Nidhiki05

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I will have time to review this tomorrow (Monday) and we need some input from other admins also, especially those who worked on the initial sanction and prior appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I have now reviewed the history, but before opining I'd still welcome input from admins who participated in the initial sanction discussion and/or the earlier appeal. This could include Guerillero, Vanamonde93, Bishonen, Swarm, Black Kite, and Seraphimblade. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had seen this but held off of commenting because I had wanted fresh eyes on it: but I suppose it's not getting enough attention. I skimmed Toa Nidhiki05's recent edits, and I did not find anything egregious, so I'm willing to accept an appeal. I reviewed the discussion of the Republican's political position, and while I believe the OP could be better about sticking to sources rather than personal opinion, so could everyone else in that discussion, and some were doing a lot worse. I assume, too, given the polarized nature of this topic, that any genuine infractions would have been brought up here, and none has been. Vanamonde93 (talk) 02:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Silvertide goldwaves

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Silvertide goldwaves

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Number 57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:41, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Silvertide goldwaves (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4

Silvertide goldwaves made a large number of Israel-Palestine conflict edits prior to meeting the 30/500 requirement. While this was potentially an inadvertent breach, there were several other issues with the editing, much of which was highly partisan, and also contained misleading edit summaries like this.

Although they have now passed the 30/500 threshold, their edits continue to be problematic. When some of their edits were reverted (by another editor who does not meet the 30/500 requirement), they reinstated them with disparaging edit summaries like this.

I noticed some of their pre 30/500 edits today and undid them on the basis that they were ARBPIA violations. They then reinstated the edits with the same disparaging edit summary as mentioned above. I followed this up with a notice on their talkpage and re-reverted a couple of their edits that I felt were of concern (and on the basis that the initial revert was exempt from ARBPIA4 on the basis that it was enforcing the extended confirmed restriction).

Despite now being aware of the 1RR restriction, they reverted for a second time with another disparaging edit summary. They have since followed me to football-related articles that I have recently edited and deleted entire sections (e.g. here and here).

While this initially looked like an ARBPIA sanction might be required, their most recent behaviour makes it look like it might be a WP:NOTHERE case.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: here

In response to the comments below, my "allergy" to reliable sources is due to them not supporting the claims Silvertide goldwaves is using them to make. Here they claim that the source states that Shimshit is "Jewish-only". In fact the source describes them as Jewish but not Jewish-only, and more importantly, the Central Statistical Bureau's census figures for Shimshit (which can be downloaded from here (just click on the Excel icon; Shimshit is row 1,232 in the resulting file)) confirm that it is not Jewish-only – it has a population of 2,441, of which 2,428 are Jews and 13 are non-Jews. The same is true for Givat Ela (which Silvertide has also claimed is Jewish-only; the census figures (row 268) show it to have a population of 1,896, of which 1,873 are Jewish, 4 are Arab and 18 are other). The latter contradicts their use of the source to claim the villages prevent Arabs from living in them. Number 5 7 02:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion concerning Silvertide goldwaves

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Silvertide goldwaves

"I noticed some of their pre 30/500 edits" which ones? Be specific. What is "problematic"? Be specific. Do not waste anyone's time by dancing around the heart of the matter - your allergy to inconvenient yet reliable, even academic sources - by operating in vagaries.

"Following" you or me is A-OK on Wikipedia, and unsourced information on Wikipedia should be removed. That I see pages you edit, that have unsourced information (potentially fiction), necessitates their removal.

Statement by Zero0000

Silvertide goldwaves' edits have indeed been problematic, and I'm sorry I didn't turn on the fire hose earlier. The 500/30 violations need to be seen in the light of the absence of CT notification, but the poor sourcing and aggressive behavior are harder to excuse. I also disapprove of the mass removal rather than tagging of sourceable-but-unsourced information even though the rules allow it. Number 57's comments on "Jewish-only" communities don't work because there are many small communities in Israel with policies against Arab residents which nevertheless have a small number of such residents. This has been legal since 2014 [35] but I don't know the situation in the communities named here. Obviously that comes down to sourcing and it seems that SG's sources were not sufficient. I don't think SG is likely to be a good contributor in the near future, but (perhaps optimistically) a time-limited block might provide an opportunity to cool the enthusiasm and learn our policies and practices better. Zero^talk 09:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

Just an observation, but Silvertide goldwaves' editing appears to act as an ECR violating probable-sock magnet e.g. here. Sean.hoyland (talk) 01:30, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Silvertide goldwaves

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I see some significant concerns here, including the fixed typos edit summaries for contentious substantive edits and the retaliatory deletion of uncontroversial material from unrelated football articles. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The poor edit summaries, both attacking an editor and inaccurately stating fixed typos, along with the general hostility leads me to believe they should be removed from the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:22, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Mountain of Eden

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: The Mountain of Eden (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction being appealed: One week block from editing the article Mohammad Deif

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: Diff of notification

Statement by The Mountain of Eden

I was accused of violating WP:1RR. I did not. I committed only one revert. On my talk page, I explained that an edit that Makeandtoss accused me of being a revert is just a copyedit since I did not undo any other editor's edits.
So far, ScottishFinnishRadish has refused to answer my repeated attempts to ask why I was blocked, both on my talk page, and their talk page. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An univolved admin refused to unblock me on procedural grounds, and advised me to appeal here. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't really write "I won't do that again" if I didn't do it the first time. The first edit that alleged a revert was not a revert. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 13:28, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish:

Date of restore death into infobox w/ the note that Hamas is disputing the death.: 21:46, 27 August 2024
Date of Undid revision 1243089857 by Makeandtoss (talk) The references are already at the end of the sentence: 13:11, 30 August 2024

⇒ More than 24 hours.

Date of edit for which you are alleging a partial revert: 14:30, 12 August 2024
- That's 18 days and 36 edits later. I think that should be considered as established text.

The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish: the edit in question was not a removal of content. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish: Unattributed??? The attribution is at the end of the sentence: <ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/01/hamas-commander-mohammed-deif-killed/|title=Top Hamas commander Mohammed Deif killed in Israeli strikes, IDF says|author1=Louisa Loveluck|author2=Shira Rubinwork|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=August 1, 2024|access-date=1 August 2024|archive-date=3 August 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240803052718/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/01/hamas-commander-mohammed-deif-killed/|url-status=live}}</ref> (emphasis added). The Mountain of Eden (talk) 16:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Negating the effect of an edit is a revert. There have been many long term edit wars over attribution, like the locus of this revert. The whole point of 1rr is to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring, and is a bright line. In this case the editor has already had an issue with 1rr and not recognizing a revert, and responding with hostility to the 1rr notification.

As for my responsiveness, I received around 40 alerts and notifications in the past 24 hours, and I have around 5400 pages on my watchlist. I don't see any ping from their talk page, just an unblock request that didn't generate a notification. The message on my talk page looks to be about 24 hours old.

Lastly, it would be nice to see one of these appeals say, "I won't do that again." — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottishFinnishRadish (talk • contribs) 13:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first edit was a partial revert of this edit. That's about as clear a 1rr violation as you can have. As far as my remedying the 1RR violation, that is covered at WP:CTOP, Edits that breach an editor or page restriction may be reverted... An uninvolved administrator who enforces a restriction by reversion is performing an administrative action and does not thereby become involved for administrative purposes. With clear violations I sometimes make a revert while addressing the behavior.

In this situation we don't even have to get into the weeds of what negating a previous edit means, or that we have CTOP sanctions that refer to something that isn't defined in policy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was also a revert of this. Looking back just to the beginning of August this is a long running slow edit war. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And lastly, restore death into infobox w/ the note that Hamas is disputing the death. is a clear demonstration that they were aware they were reverting an earlier removal. You don't restore something that wasn't removed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Mountain of Eden, in my earlier 1RR warning I said, After some amount of time which is highly variable and seldom agreed on content becomes the status quo and removing it is a bold edit rather than a revert. If you're editing in a contentious topic it's safest to assume that any removal is a revert. Continuing a long term edit war is definitely going to fall on the revert side of the line. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:50, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, I don't see continuing a dispute they were aware of with a summary like Only Hamas would use the present tense of the verb while leaving the IDF/Israel claim unattributed as seeking consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

No one is going to like this idea because it's premised on the notion that certain events, like a block, should trigger a checkuser in PIA. An offer. If they pass a checkuser they can be unblocked. I'm curious whether the user would accept this kind of deal. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since the question was raised, the Lehi Street bombing socks are probably not The Mountain (Icewhiz). But, as far as I can tell from a technical data (that does not qualify as evidence at SPI), The Mountain could be a sock of User:Plot Spoiler. This result is (surprisingly for me) consistent with the fact that they registered their account at 2024-04-30T21:39:22, less than an hour after Plot Spoiler's last sock, User:Loksmythe, was blocked at 2024-04-30T20:45:08...unless it is all a coincidence, which is absolutely possible. I am not going to file an SPI (mainly because a) the evidence I have is not evidence at SPI and b) blocked accounts can simply create a new account if they haven't already done so and rapidly gain EC thanks to the many tools Wikipedia provides for new users to get them started). Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Selfstudier

Reported editor is not paying attention to their block anyway, see Lehi Street bombing (article created by sock on 24 August and substantially edited by edited by another on 2 September). Selfstudier (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: Apologies, I got as far as "you have been blocked from editing Wikipedia for a period of 1 week" and assumed it was a full block. Selfstudier (talk) 22:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hum, a source title does not constitute inline attribution in the way I understand that, reported editor likes to wikilawyer stuff, I think.Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Mountain of Eden

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Aquillion

This was clearly not a revert, not unless we're going to classify every single edit as a revert (which would make editing in 1RR areas untenable). The effect of this edit was to add a statement. Adding attribution elaborates on that statement; it does not "undo" it. That sort of addition is not a revert unless comparable attribution had previously been present and had been removed, which was not the case here.

I'm also a bit puzzled by the fact that the blocking admin then immediately restored the previous revision afterwards; maybe I've just missed it, or perhaps practice has changed, but AFAIK that has never been part of the remedy for 1RR/3RR violations. The 3RR is about conduct and not article content; therefore, the remedy consists of a block or some other preventative measure but does not normally involve undoing the offending revert as an administrative action unless BLP violations or some similarly compelling situation requires it. Actual administrative action to change article content is rare and reserved for situations like WP:BLP where the issue is the content itself and not editor conduct; the administrator guidance for edit warring talks solely about blocks and the like, not about throwing a final revert onto the pile to "fix" things.

Both of these things - the 3RR generally not covering genuinely new additions that might "water down" the text except in the most egregious cases, and revisions to article content not being part of the remedy - are IMHO important because the 3RR sits on a delicate balance; we need a red line to prevent revert-wars, but we also want to avoid situations where the red line could be weaponized to force the article into a particular state, which could lead to WP:STONEWALLing and paradoxically encourage revert-wars by rewarding the first mover. This is even more true for the 1RR; the 3RR is somewhat safe because pushing things to the line is itself misconduct, but the 1RR requires so little that an even slightly intransigent editor raising totally reasonable objections and making entirely reasonable reverts could bring editing on a low-traffic article to a standstill if it was interpreted too broadly. --Aquillion (talk) 03:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by The Mountain of Eden

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Sometimes I think that the ambiguity over what constitutes a revert or not for purposes of 1RR is just hopeless. I can readily understand why The Mountain of Eden perceives that the first edit listed did not constitute a revert, but I also understand why the party who originally complained thought it was. I'll allow some time for statements, especially from the blocking admin, before commenting further. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I generally agree with this. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:23, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First off, in response to ScottishFinnishRadish's comments, those who participate regularly on AE appreciate his efforts in this area and have no concerns about his level of responsiveness. With regard to the substance of the appeal, however, after further review I am unable to agree that the first disputed edit constituted a revert. The situation appears similar to this hypothetical: Editor A edits an article to say X is true, Editor B deletes that statement, and Editor A then inserts Jones says X is true. Editor A has reinserted the concept of X, but as a much more qualified assertion that might, depending on the circumstances, be acceptable as compromise language even to B, thereby resolving rather than perpetuating the editing disagreement. I do not believe this would constitute a revert for 1RR purposes, and in any event it is not so clearly an improper revert as to warrant a block. Therefore, subject to other admins' further input, I am inclined to accept the appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's what happened here? And if it is I'm reading the article history wrong. SFR can you clarify what the diffs that constituted the 1RR were for you? Thanks Barkeep49 (talk) 19:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49: From the discussion on User talk:The Mountain of Eden, I believe this is the diff whose status as a revert is disputed. There is no dispute that there was a revert (or another revert) later that day. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:02, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks NYB and SFR. I think The Mountain of Eden has violated 1RR. This is mitigated by the fact that they attempted to find consensus through differing wording combinations and by participating usefully in a talk page discussion about it (a discussion which was mainly a bunch of IPs acting unhelpfully and in violation of ECR in the topic area). On the other side of the ledger is that Mountain still doesn't seem to realize that there was any violation which doesn't inspire confidence for the future. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still am not convinced that restoring part of a prior edit is always a revert, nor that the use of the word "restore" is an admission that it is. The example I gave here the last time this issue came up is this: Editor A edits a 1RR article by adding A, B, and C, Editor B removes that with the edit summary C isn't true, and then Editor A posts A and B with the edit summary restoring A and B which no one disagrees with and omitting C. That would be a sensible attempt to seek consensus, not edit-warring. The actual edit history here is more complicated than my examples, as ScottishFinnishRadish correctly observes, but I ready understand why The Mountain of Edit does not perceive they violated the 1RR. That being said, if no other admins here agree with me, then a consensus to modify the sanction does not exist. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do I love that edit summary? No. However, I stand by my statement: they attempted to find consensus through differing wording combinations which in a non-1RR topic area would certainly be enough for me but even here strikes me as the good faith (perhaps naively so) interpretation of their actions. However, we are in a 1RR topic area so it all gets trickier. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Selfstudier: I'm confused. The Mountain of Eden is only blocked from a single page. Are you suggesting that Lehi Street bombing socks are also The Mountain (Icewhiz)? Barkeep49 (talk) 22:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Void if removed

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Void if removed

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Raladic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Void if removed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender and sexuality

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

14:25, 10 January 2023 Early warning by another user following their recent edit warring block (linked below) in the CTOP area and a COI warning by another user just prior due to the appearance of the user being here for promotion of a singular topic
11:21, 16 April 2023 POV pushing (revert, Sideswipe9th)
15:45, 13 October 2023 POV, removal of historic context of TERF movement (revert, Loki)
13:57, 13 October 2023 Further attempts to try to whitewash Gender critical feminism of its origins
22:19, 15 October 2023 More POV attempts trying to remove GCF from its TERF origins
14:53, 21 October 2023 More POV attempts trying to whitewash Gender Criticam feminism, removal of RS
11:10, 22 December 2023 Another POV attempt at deleting the hate group designation as they will try again below in June 2024 (revert, Snokalok)
14:31, 31 December 2023 NPOV trying to whitewash Conversion therapy#Gender exploratory therapy (revert, Pepperbeast)
10:05, 29 January 2024 POV removal of pseudoscience note (revert, LesbianTiamat)
19:58, 5 June 2024 POV removal of RS, repeating SPLC removal they also attempted in December 2023 (revert, Amanda A. Brant)
16:11, 6 June 2024 POV, Repeat removal of the same RS content from another article (revert, Zenomonoz)
21:57, 21 June 2024 POV removal of RS of the historic evolvement of TERF and GCF terms (revert, Raladic)
10:59, 10 June 2024 POV promotion of furthering ROGD fringe theories
15:46, 8 July 2024 More continuation of the same FRINGE POV pushing, RGW disruption as called out by The Hand That Feeds You
08:57, 31 August 2024 POV removal of that country's largest medical organizations criticizing the restriction of PBs (revert, Snokalok)
08:14, 30 August 2024 It seems they now decided to start WP:HOUNDING me personally and get involved in articles they never had any involvement in
09:48, 31 August 2024 More WP:HOUNDING to the list, commenting on a project they have never been involvd in and accusing me of canvassing on a discussion they also have never shown any involvement with

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

21:45, 19 December 2022‎ Edit warring block in CTOP area

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This user has shown a continuous repeated pattern of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing and arguing with users. Their editing appears to be a pattern of a WP:SPA (editing almost exclusively on about 10 articles(talk)) with the sole intent of furthering Gender criticism feminism as a non-fringe movement and erasure of its origins, as well as the WP:PROMOTION of their personal beliefs and Gender critical organizations (for which they also received a COI warning by another user over a year ago, which was just deleted without addressing it).

The user appears to be WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but instead only to promote their personal beliefs/WP:POVs (many of which have been in opposition of WP:HID) on this and continuous arguing with any editors that fall into the trap of trying to do so. Of their 1,500 edits, only 28% of their edits have actually been to the mainspace, of which at least 33% had to be reverted by other users(at least the ones tagged with mw-revert, likely many more that were manual reverts) due to (as the above Diffs give a bit of a highlight of and were reverted content) continuous WP:POV pushing. As the above diff history shows, this isn't a single once off, but at this point, a two year long, steady pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing, much of which the majority of their editing has been in talk page arguing. It is especially egregious that some of their editing is (trying to) remove the same things again, months after they were previously reverted. Their continuous pattern of WP:CIVILPOV pushing and arguing in talk pages with long WP:Wall of text to wear down others is systemic. They usually always have a long answer ready after someone reverts their POV-pushing in the talk page on why their edit was right, often WP:TAGTEAMing with others that support their ideological views. At this point, I do not believe that these arguments, or the edits to the main space (much of which was reverted POV pushing) are a productive addition to the project, so I request a WP:TOPICBAN from WP:GENSEX topics, broadly construed.

@Sweet6970, Wikipedia has a higher standard against the WP:PROMOTION of hateful transphobic views than the UK (see WP:HID/WP:NQP). Raladic (talk) 21:17, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49 you missed on June 5th that immediately after their self-revert, the immediately re-reverted and removed the information again out of the lead. Just as they then did on June 6 from the other article, after having been reverted already on June 5, basically trying to ram through their POV on the other article after failing on the first one. Please also note that this POV push had started in December of 2023([36], [37]) as YFNS has pointed out as further evidence below in their statement (and which had been settled already by NPOVN, so the June 5/6th incidence was a covert repeat attempt against settled consensus. Raladic (talk) 18:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

AE notice given

Discussion concerning Void if removed

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Void if removed

This warning was a turning point for me and I definitely took it to heart, and I have to say I have learned an enormous amount since then from this editor. Despite regular disagreements, I consider them fair and even handed and I have improved my own contributions as a result. Certainly I was far too combative early on, but I've definitely toned it down in the last 18 months, especially after getting involved in subjects where WP:MEDRS applies.

Here I simply changed the text to match the wording of the main article. I felt this was more consistent, and that the arguments for "controversy" over "discredited" should not be rehashed on another page. This is currently the consensus wording, so I'm not sure why there's an issue here?

The 22 December edit was a standard disagreement over content and is wrongly described in the report as an "attempt at deleting the hate group designation" which isn't even mentioned.

On January 29th I reinstated the lede and asked the editor responsible to stop edit warring and take it to talk.

In the June 5th edit I noted "Hate group" had been added to the lede of the SEGM page but not the body, which I removed because I didn't think the source supported it but I immediately self-reverted as I had erred and read the wrong source! I then moved it to the body per WP:LEDEFOLLOWSBODY and WP:SPLC which states SPLC's hate group designations are not necessarily DUE for the lede.

This June 6th edit was because the source was simply not terribly good (a substack reposted by a non-notable publication), but it was replaced with a better one in a later edit so I had no further objections.

The 21st of June edit was to remove material from the lede which had just previously been disputed in the body as not due for wikivoice because it was opinion. I think that should have been discussed on talk, but since it was reverted I left it. If there is no appetite among a group of editors for a discussion there's little point in raising one so it makes sense to simply move on in that situation.

The June 10th edit - systematic reviews are not FRINGE, so I dispute this description of this discussion. Turban's paper on sex ratios is contradicted by systematic reviews, so it is entirely valid to raise on talk whether it should be given that level of prominence, ~~or should be placed in context (ie, the conflict between self-report survey information and clinical observation)~~.

The 31 August edit is mostly a reinstatement of the previous wording, but also a trimming down to remove bloat. This section is supposed to demonstrate the evolving use of puberty blockers in the UK. I don't think an episode of woman's hour mentioning the NHS had updated its website is the best source for that. Likewise the claim attributed to the BMA (the trade union and professional body for doctors) is not supported by the source, and saying in 2022 it supports "self-id" is irrelevant to the timeline of the NHS backing away from puberty blockers. I think this should be more concise for the reader and stick to the most important points, per WP:NOTEVERYTHING. A logical next step would have been to raise this on talk, and I may have got round to doing that myself today to see what other editors thought, were it not for this AE request.

I don't think that replying on the NPOV noticeboard is hounding - I was simply offering helpful information that there may have been some confusion as the editors appeared to be talking about two different sources.

WRT the LGBT->LGBTQ rename I think it is fair that if a page move that is expected to instigate a category rename that affects tens of thousands of pages it should be seen by a good range of people, and only notifying one project could possibly skew that. This is not hounding, merely a coincidence. I have to say though, I'm not sure of the proper protocol here and some advice would be helpful - is it possible to raise concerns of WP:VOTESTACKING without also violating WP:AGF? As in, I am assuming this is done in good faith and not wishing to cast WP:ASPERSIONS, I just think the end result is too narrow an audience for such an impactful change, and it would have been better to err on the side of more eyes rather than fewer.

WRT the edits to Gender-critical feminism, there are differences of opinion, and those are evident on talk. I don't think a few edits out of context cover the amount of good faith effort I've made to read the sources and try to present what they actually say with NPOV. If most of my contributions are on talk, that is because GENSEX is an area where consensus is incredibly difficult to achieve and requires huge amounts of discussion and source evaluation, something which I have spent time doing simply because I find it interesting. I also endeavour to make changes conservatively via talk first because I know how sensitive the subject is. Sometimes I make bold changes, and if reverted try and follow BRD. I try and avoid anything that can be construed as edit warring.

As for edits in other areas, at the start of the year I tried to branch out into creating pages on the Slow Horses book series but, frankly, I got sucked in by the release of the Cass Review in April. I would ask anyone to read my contributions on Cass Review and Puberty Blocker and see whether I am sticking to RS and attempting to neutrally present what RS say and actively seeking compromise, trying to advance NPOV in good faith. Void if removed (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Further response Re: "LGB Alliance founders" issue.

As an inexperienced editor I wrongly thought that making a tiny correction would be a simple task, and I became mired in a WP:RGW crusade, with some snarky and WP:BLUDGEONING behaviour. With hindsight, this was a terrible way to learn the ropes, though I did discover an awful lot of policy and procedure along the way. After a combative start, and lots of pointless WP:ONEAGAINSTMANY I did get better at working toward compromise in this WP:CTOP. I brought the "founders" issue up again in July last year when a new secondary WP:RS appeared, but I was again in a minority and after admittedly too much pointless discussion the stick was dropped. What I (eventually) learned from all this was to not reflexively respond to every reply, because unless other editors agree with you a discussion is going nowhere.

Almost a year later I came across WP:WSAW and (along with the publication of another WP:RS) perhaps unwisely thought I could demonstrate my growth as an editor, and offer a constructive compromise to allow additional material to be added to the organisation's history to improve this page which otherwise doesn't work, and perhaps get some closure on a bad early chapter, but after what I thought was a promising start I was unsuccessful. While a disappointing experience, I believe it shows my commitment to improvement. Though I admit my mind hasn't changed, this isn't a topic I plan on ever raising again. Void if removed (talk) 09:25, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RE: June 6th edit, please see fuller June 8th explanation about establishing DUE for lede with involved editor here. Void if removed (talk) 17:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 10th edit was referencing this discussion. Void if removed (talk) 20:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Silver_seren

Saw this, thought I should just pop in here as an old source to note that the POV pushing in regards to Void if removed's editing started from the very beginning of their account in 2021 and involved me. Their first edits were to start tendentiously arguing that Sir Ewan Forbes, 11th Baronet didn't count as being transgender, despite what the references said. They also began edit warring about that on the book article I had recently made about Forbes, The Hidden Case of Ewan Forbes. They then disappeared for almost a year and then popped up at Mermaids (charity) in September 2022 to start pushing more of their same topic POV edits. And that has been the entirety of their editing ever since. In their three years, they have made two articles, a short author stub and Cass Review, which continues the same topic area issues. Silver seren^C 00:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Colin

When Void if removed first showed up on my radar I was concerned about their editing and raised these concerns on their talk page, as linked above. In the subsequent 18 months Void has become a much better Wikipedian, to the point where I think they are one of the best editors in this contentious topic domain. I say this even though we disagree on much. My experience is that Void is capable of listening to advice and genuinely seeks to improve as an editor.

Some of the diffs demonstrate revising text that then ends up saying less of what I assume Radalic would like the article to say. And? This is normal. Such articles attract poorly sourced negative shit or dubious claims that fail source verification. Editors disagreeing on the weight of a factoid or strength of a source is normal. Void is not one of the editors who add such poor material.

Void is capable of accurately describing and understanding the many sides in this culture war area and offering high quality sources to backup what they say. As someone who bangs on about MEDRS, I appreciate their focus on the best reliable sources in these medical topics. Void created the Cass review article, now a most important medical trans topic, and has helped defend it from misinformation.

When I find myself disagreeing with Void, I am relieved that I don't have to deal with (a) unsourced personal opinion (b) stuff sourced to some blog or low-quality magazine or (c) misinformation they credulously repeat.

Nearly all editors on these articles have a POV that becomes obvious fairly quickly. In a contentious topic domain, the point is you have to demonstrate an ability to work with editors who have a POV you don't like or agree with, and to push for the best sources and most accurate and fair text. I don't think the diffs presented are evidence of a problem with Void in this regard, despite the two paragraphs of WP:UPPERCASE that followed them.

WP:ACTIVIST says Editors operating in good faith, not seeking to promote specific views, will usually try to find some way to cooperate, collaborate, and compromise with almost all other editors. Void has his opinions, sure, but I find those three C's in my experience editing with Void. I think they are here to build an encyclopaedia. -- Colin°^Talk 17:08, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: Talk:Cass Review#BMA (percentage) would appear to be the flashpoint that provoked this arb request. IMO it is an enlightening read wrt POV pushing and encyclopaedia building. -- Colin°^Talk 18:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49 for what it's worth, the edit summary of the 6th June edit makes it clear the issue is DUE for the lead, not WP:V. As you note, there was a link to the SPLC website that verified the text, and in fact Void added that ref to the body text mentioning this designation which the edit retained. The revert wrongly argues "SPLC is a WP:RS" as it isn't an independent source establishing DUE. -- Colin°^Talk 17:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LunaHasArrived

I want to start off by saying I was surprised to see void appear here and that they are an editor I have been able to compromise and cooperate with in the past. However a couple of their comments in their reply astonished me. Firstly, in the section about the tenth of June edit they seem to believe that they raised on talk wether to put Turban in context. From what's written Void wanted to remove the claim at minimum and the entire mention at maximum, I made the suggestion about context and received no feedback so to see Void claim they made the suggestion feels slightly insulting. Secondly whilst a single edit doesn't show overall behaviour this edit and the entire topic thread (both done post warning) are particularly bad in terms of being combative and failing to drop the stick.

Statement by Sweet6970

This is an inappropriate request by Raladic. It starts This user has shown a continuous repeated pattern of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing and arguing with users. [my emphasis] Without civil, rational, argument, Wikipedia cannot function. All this complaint amounts to is that Raladic disagrees with Void if removed on various content matters.

Raladic refers twice to something which is supposedly ‘whitewashing’ gender-critical feminism, as if being a gender-critical feminist is some sort of criminal offence. In fact, ‘gender critical’ views are protected in the UK under the Equality Act 2010, and several people have successfully made legal claims for discrimination on the grounds of this philosophical belief.

I also note that this complaint starts with edits in January 2023, and refers to a block in December 2022. The heading for this page includes: Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. Sweet6970 (talk) 20:33, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist

VIR's FRINGE promotion has not been sitting right with me for a while and I think a GENSEX TBAN may be necessary. Their whitewashing of conversion therapy is particularly galling. Below are a few of the more egregious things I've seen from them:

Gender-critical feminism/Gender-critical feminism#Conversion therapy
- Mass deletion of section on GCF views on conversion therapy[38], and then multiple walls of text on talk arguing for it's removal.[39]
- Here they argued to remove material about the origins of the GC-movement in the 70s because it was from an encyclopedia of trans history.[40]
- Additionally, I would be rich if I had a dollar for every time VIR notes the majority of RS are critical but says we should go out of our way not be (clear WP:FALSEBALANCE.[41] I'd be richer if I got another for every time they've argued we should scrap the article in favor of directly quoting books by GC feminists.
Conversion therapy/Gender exploratory therapy
- For the past few months, they have repeatedly argued on talk the section should be rewritten to say GET isn't conversion therapy, often citing primary sources from GET practitioners and advocates.[42][43][44]
- This continued on the fringe theories noticeboard when I sought input there
SPLC
- As mentioned above, they have repeatedly tried to remove statements about organizations from the SPLC by calling them opinion pieces. They did this at SEGM [45], particularly at talk[46]
ROGD
- Here they bludgeoned multiple editors while being told they were misrepresenting the sources[47].
- They've also tried to add FRINGE sources to the further reading section.[48]
VIR has made 235 edits to the talk page for LGB Alliance and 59 to the article itself.
- I believe they have a COI with the organization which I will not disclose here due to WP:OUTING, but which I will email an admin evidence of.

Having seen VIR frequently pop up in discussions, I believe their behavior can at best be described as WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:RGW, WP:CPUSH and WP:PROFRINGE. On VIR's talk page at the moment is a discussion where they claim that the majority of transgender children are "LGB kids with mental health issues" that are being transitioned improperly and will regret it... Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LilianaUwU

I feel like I should link my essay. Anyways, I agree with YFNS' call for a GENSEX TBAN. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 01:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by berchanhimez

The evidence provided by the user starting this complaint consists primarily of edits that are old and/or a few recent disputes. One of those disputes is on Talk:Rapid-onset gender dysphoria controversy, where VIR has been attempting to have the article be balanced in line with due weight. As the sources VIR discusses on the talkpage make clear, this is controversial and while there is not a widespread agreement that it's accurate, there is also not a widespread agreement that it's inaccurate. There is no solid evidence for or against it, yet some editors wish to exclude any and all information about the current debate over how it may be investigated further, because they think that it's unproven = WP:FRINGE. That's simply not true. For something to be fringe, it must either be conclusively disproven, or there must be widespread agreement that there is no way it can be reality. Editors know this, hence why they are trying to shut down any source discussion as RGW and not include any sources that investigate it as possibly true.

The other dispute is as Colin points out (Talk:Cass Review), and I have nothing to add to that. There are also claims of POV pushing through removal of SPLC designation of being a hate group. While they are considered reliable, that does not mean that information needs to be included, and explicitly states that their classifications should not automatically be included in the lead, yet it was readded fairly quickly after VIR moved it to the body, without any talk page discussion in at least one case (Genspect). Ultimately, this pattern follows in most of the other evidence - VIR makes a bold edit B that someone disagrees with, they are reverted, and nobody starts a talk page discussion about it - but there is no evidence that VIR has gone on to make the edit again without discussing though they may continue to improve the material in question via further edits.

Ultimately, there is one group of editors who wish for Wikipedia to only aspouse one viewpoint on this topic, even though they don't outwardly state that is their goal. As part of that, they are trying to remove users (and sources such as the Telegraph) that they dislike from Wikipedia. I trust that AE administrators will see through that. If anything, the filing user is hounding VIR, and the behavior of users who are ignoring or attempting to shut down valid DUE discussions on talk pages should be warned against doing so. I don't believe AE can implement it, but probably the best solution here is a BRD restriction - if any user reverts an edit in this topic area, they must explain their reasoning on the talk page to allow for others to chime in and discuss rather than hiding it in an edit summary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 11:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by starship.paint

The complaint is that VIR shows a continuous repeated pattern of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing and arguing with users ... the majority of their editing has been in talk page arguing ... They usually always have a long answer ready after someone reverts their POV-pushing in the talk page on why their edit was right. But doesn't this sound like how WP:BRD is supposed to function? starship .paint (RUN) 12:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Snokalok

Void definitely acts and edits in a way that often feels bad faith or blatantly POV, but with that said, I really can’t deny that he’s one of the less painful editors with a clear POV to collaborate with. That’s not to say his edits aren’t tendentious, but like, he is indisputably polite about them in a way that others aren’t.

He never cites British court cases to say that you as an editor are not allowed to compare the article on terfism to the article on white supremacy, he never goes on tirades about his wounded national pride in which he says that everyone with an American IP shouldn’t be questioning the weight to give British govt sources, he never blanks entire sections in favor of rewriting them in barely comprehensible English with no other changes, and he is sometimes willing to meet halfway.

Take that for what it’s worth.

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Void if removed

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Void: it would be great if you could get your response down to 1000 words (seems to be at 1100 right now) but your request is granted. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:32, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Raladic please do not edit comments after people have responded to them. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:19, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to try and go through the 2024 edits reported here. I will not have time now to do all of them:
- Jan 2024 - the revert seems to be restoring a long established LEAD, for which there was no talk page consensus to change and where Void was the 2nd person to revert someone attempting to BOLDLY change it. I am untroubled here.
- 5 June - Void immeadiately self reverted (wasn't even like they were asked by someone to revert, they just realized their own mistake). Absent that it would have been a problem, but we do have that, so not a problem.
- 6 June - The substack explanation doesn't fly as there was a link to the SPLC itself supporting the information included
- 21 June - A single revert, along with the explanation provided doesn't trouble me on its own.
- 10 June - I'm still making my way through this discussion, initial thoughts are credit for starting the discussion, but possible concerns about number of editors who had to explain Void was wrong (absent any indication that was a WP:LOCALCON).
My initial impression is that this is an editor with a point of view but one who is, in 2024, squarely editing with-in Wikipedia norms and standards for a contentious topic, though if further evidence supports repeats of 6 June and talk page POV pushing (the worst case outcome for the 10 June discussion) this impression will change. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- 10 June and 8 July: I've now read these two+ times. On the one hand having to reexplain the samethings to the same person is exhausting. On the other hand, I Void is bringing new sources, and reasonable enough (if not ideal) sources to the table. On the third hand, rebutting that is even harder and so a good faith effort from one person becomes a complete drain on the energies of others. But also this is an area of active academic research so there being new sources worth discussing also is an appropriate talk page endeavor. I may or may not come back to comment on this further.
- 31 August I do not find the reasons for removing the BMA (that it was old and the section was too long) compelling. If there was a chance it needed updating it seems very possible to find out what the current BMA stance is on puberty blockers and so the right move would have been to update rather than remove. And why a major medical group was the right one to be removed in the name of preventing UNDUE coverage is not at all clear to me.
- 30 August This is at a major noticeboard. Void clearly has shown an interest in the topic area. This to me explains how they found it and why they participated in something they'd never edited before - in fact that is the whole point of a noticeboard, to draw eyes on something from people who weren't already involved with it. I find nothing troubling about their responding to Raladic (though Void should probably attempt to avoid responding directly in the future where possible given the way Raladic is interpeting their actions).
- 31 August I'm not sure how Void found this discussion, but their participation in it doesn't strike me as troubling either. I ran their interactions and I'm not seeing anything that immediately is troubling but I note it in case there is something there.
- 22 December Went back here per Radilacs response to my first batch. WP:SPLC notes that they are reliable but their labeling shouldn't automatically be included in the LEAD. I'm curious in what circumstances Void would find it appropriate to include a gender related hate designation in the lead given their reluctance on these two.
- I have also evaluated the diffs provided by Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist. On the whole I don't find their evidence shows what they claim. I would encourage them to email paid-en-wpwikipedia.org their evidence of the COI and to let me know when they have done so, so that I may fully evaluate that claim.
Having now reviewed all the December 2023 and later diffs from Radilac (plus the diffs from YFNS) , while I don't find everything Void did to be ideal and I find Void to have a clear POV, I see them to be generally following the contentious topics guidance for editors. Void does seem to often be holding a minority viewpoint, but the way they act on that is with-in the bounds of our policies and guidelines (both content and conduct), and I personally do not find repeatedly holding a minority viewpoint with-in a topic area to be sanctionable. It's a fine line an editor like this has to walk but for now Void appears to be walking it. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[3] Армения в эпоху Юстиниана: Политическое состояние на основе Нахарского строя, СПб., 1908, cт. 402-404 (Nicholas Adontz, Armenia in the Period of Justinian: The political Conditions Based on the Naxarar System. Trans. into Eng. with expanded notes, bibliography, and appendices by Nina G. Garsoian, Lisbon, 1970)

[4] (Toumanoff 1963, p. 211, n. 23.).

[5] (in Russian) Stanislav Vladimirovich Dumin. Pyotr Grebelsky. The Noble Houses of the Russian Empire. Moscow, Russia: 1994. Думин С. В., Гребельский П. Х. Дворянские роды Российской Империи. — Москва, 1994

[a]

[b]

[1]

[2]

[3]

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