Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/21st Century Breakdown (song)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 08:28, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

21st Century Breakdown (song)

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I am also nominating the following related pages because they are redundant nearly-identical copies:

There has been constant edit-warring, mostly at 21st Century Breakdown, regarding whether or not this song is to be released as a single. So far not a single reliable source has been presented confirming that it will, therefore it does not pass WP:NSONGS. The only "sources" presented have consisted of an image that may or may not be a possible cover, an unreliable blog, and a fan site speculating that "East Jesus Nowhere" was to be released as the band's next single in the US & UK on Oct. 19, while "21st Century Breakdown" is to be released instead to "the rest of the world". However, no reliable source can be found to back up this assertion. The band mentioned in early September that they had plans to film a music video for "21st Century Breakdown", but since that time they have announced on their own website that "East Jesus Nowhere" is the album's third single, to be released on the 19th, and this announcement has been repeated in a number of secondary sources. On top of that, they performed "East Jesus Nowhere" at the MTV Video Music Awards and have released a music video for it...but have made no official mention of a single for "21st Century Breakdown" (though they have announced an upcoming video for it). Any information about a possible future single is pure WP:CRYSTAL at this point. As this is the album's title track, leaving a redirect is pointless. IllaZilla (talk) 07:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - All three articles redirect to 21st Century Breakdown, so if there is any debate to be had over them, I believe it should be at Wikipedia:Redirects for deletion. DitzyNizzy (aka Jess)|(talk to me)|(What I've done) 15:17, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that they keep being reverted back to articles, and new copies keep being created in order to weasel around their redirection. I didn't think that RfD could solve the issue because they are not just redirects, they are articles that have been redirected and which certain editors keep trying to turn back into articles because they're staring into their crystal balls & making predictions about this (as yet unannouced) possible future single. RfD isn't for these kinds of problems, which are rooted in WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL. The last 2 might have been RfD-able, but since I was listing the original here it seemed logical to bundle them onto it. --IllaZilla (talk) 16:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This was one of the best songs from arguably the biggest rock album this year. It has received critical acclaim and a music video is coming out tomorrow featuring the song. Your assertion that the song CRYSTALLy being a single is false, as Green Day have stated that it will be. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:36, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, they have not. They have merely stated that a music video will be released. A music video and a single are not the same thing. There has been no official annoucement that a single for this song will be released. There is no prospective release date, no mention of b-sides or other tracks, no mention of if or when it will be released to radio, etc. "East Jesus Nowhere" has been officially announced as the album's third single, to be released tomorrow. It has has a music video in rotation for a month. Just because the band are releasing a music video for "21st Century Breakdown" does not make it a single (note that every announcement on their official site says "next music video", not "next single"). "One of the best songs from arguably the biggest rock album this year"? That's your opinion and hardly relevant. "Received critical acclaim"? There is 1 source devoting critical commentary to this song specifically, as part of a larger analysis of several tracks previewed before the album's release. There are (presently) zero sources confirming this song's release as single, and all of 6 words of critical reception. Will that change? Will the song be released as a single at some point in the future? Maybe, but until there are reliable sources verifying this then any statement claiming that it will be a single is pure speculation. --IllaZilla (talk) 20:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is one source verifying that this will be a single, and that's Green Day's official site. Granted, it doesn't mention anything about B-sides or a release date, but this is what it says:

"Green Day will be filming a video for their next single “21st Century Breakdown” with director Marc Webb."
That verifys a single AND a music video. I can add more to the critical reception, as there is plenty available. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That predates the official announcement, in multiple sources including the band's official website, that "East Jesus Nowhere" would be the album's third single. The mention of the "21st Century Breakdown" video is from September 3rd. The announcements of an "East Jesus Nowhere" single, to be released tomorrow, are from several weeks later. Just because they are releasing the video does not mean they are also releasing a single. On a side note, how do you link to individual news posts from their site (like this)? I only seem to be able to link to the main news feed, and as the stories get moved down & pushed to other pages the links get deprecated. Being able to link to specific stories would make sourcing easier. How do get an individual story on a page of its own such that you can get the article.php?id=641 bit in the url? --IllaZilla (talk) 21:09, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Green Day has decided to change the order of the single release (I don't know, maybe they think East Jesus Nowhere is a better song) but why would they say they were going to release 21st Century Breakdown as a single and then renig without saying so on their official website? As for the news feeds: I don't know how you get individual links to news posts, I discovered that on a Green Day messageboard. My guess is that you just guess the news feed number and just keep modifying it until you see the correct feed. As far as I know there is no directory which tells of the news feed numbers. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:58, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, based on the order of events I think they went with "East Jesus Nowhere" as the third single, but may be prepping for "21st Century Breakdown" to be the fourth. There's no solid evidence for this, but the sequence of events has played out thusly:
July 7: "Know Your Enemy", "21 Guns", and "East Jesus Nowhere" are released as downloadable tracks for Rock Band (I don't think it's coincidental that the first 2 songs are the album's first 2 singles). [1]

Sept. 3: The band mentions that they'll be filming a music video for "their next single", "21st Century Breakdown", with Mark Webb. [2]

Sept. 11: They post photos from the video shoot. [3]

Sept. 13: They perform "East Jesus Nowhere" at the MTV VMAs. [4] [5]

Sept. 19: They release the music video for "East Jesus Nowhere". [6] [7]

Sept. 25: Clashmusic.com and the band's official website both announce that the album's third single will be "East Jesus Nowhere", to be released on Oct. 19. [8] [9]

Sept. 26: The band's official website posts what appears to be artwork for a "21st Century Breakdown" single. [10]

Oct. 6: The official website posts the artwork for the "East Jesus Nowhere" single. [11]

Oct 18: They announce that the "21st Century Breakdown" video will premiere on Oct. 19. [12]

I think it's pretty clear that "East Jesus Nowhere" is the third single. "21st Century Breakdown" may very well be the fourth, and its music video happens to be premiering on the same day that the "East Jesus Nowhere" single is being released. However, there's no official word stating that "21st Century Breakdown" will be the fourth single (though it certainly seems likely), and unless we have some kind of details like a release date or track listing then it's not appropriate for us to declare it a single. We might still get away with having an article on the song, but I don't think we have enough at this point to satisfy WP:NSONGS. If nothing else, the 2 alternately dab'd redirects ought to be deleted without any controversy. --IllaZilla (talk) 23:19, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have added some material on the confusion. I will be working on expanding the article on the song to show its independent notability. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:54, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: We have several articles on Wikipedia on songs that aren't singles, and even more on songs that don't have music videos. Furthermore the page seems to have good content, it appears to me we're arguing over a policy that doesn't exist. Songs can be notable without either being a single or a music video, furthermore 21st Century Breakdown is pretty much the center point of the album. Therefore I say we keep it. Deathawk (talk) 19:27, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - It has become clear that this appears to be indeed a single; see the music video and a reference. Deleting is a very drastic move, a redirect would suffice, especially in the case of an upcoming single that has just failed to be verified properly to date. Kiac (talk) 13:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There is some coverage of the song, and it looks as if it will be the next single. Additionally, the article is well-written and includes a few reliable, third-party sources, some of which do cover the song significantly. Thirdly, as others have mentioned, a song doesn't necessarily have to be a single to be notable enough for an article. As long as it's had significant coverage in reliable sources, it's deserving of a separate article. Either way, we shouldn't be going in the direction of delete because it is not a far-fetched redirect title, there is some useful information there, and it's always better to preserve a record of good faith contributions as required by the CC-BY-SA and GFDL. Tim meh 01:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.