Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living former members of the Cabinet of the United Kingdom

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:19, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of living former members of the Cabinet of the United Kingdom

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Oops, I'd have sworn I already nominated this. Must have missed it. Anyway, since I forgot, and since I'm lazy; per the same reasons as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living former members of the United States Cabinet and every other trivial combination of "characteristic X" and "living person". RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:51, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom and all the other living Afd's. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:41, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The nominator tells us that they are lazy and so we can be reasonably sure that WP:BEFORE has not been done and alternatives to deletion considered. There doesn't seem to be a separate master list of cabinet ministers and so getting this information would require picking through many other pages. The list therefore fulfils a sensible purpose of indexing and navigation per WP:LISTPURP. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:06, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- What ATD are you proposing? pburka (talk) 11:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I favour improving the page per policy WP:ATD, "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." I'd start by consolidating the entries to remove duplication and making it a single sortable table. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:56, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I was lazy in not bothering to write out an in-depth rationale (since the reasons for deletion are obvious to those who have been following the recent similar nominations). Not in not trying to look for sources to establish LISTN. Even if I hadn't done so, the simplest way, anyway, for you to convert your ad hominem into a proper keep argument would be, you know, to actually find such sources instead of deflecting. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:55, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - It is up to the nominator to present and make a case for action. If they can't be bothered then they can't expect to convince. My !vote stands. Andrew🐉(talk) 20:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete for the exact same reasons as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living former United Kingdom MPs. Ajf773 (talk) 10:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Andrew. -GorgonaJS (talk) 19:44, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete just like all the other lists of living, former politicians. Politicians are notable, but the fact that this subset is retired and not dead is a trivial cross categorization and the list doesn't satisfy WP:LISTN or WP:LISTPURP. There's no way to improve it as the topic is fundamentally non-encyclopedic. pburka (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I think the nomination in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living former members of the United States Cabinet makes a persuasive argument. Struggling to see how this meets WP:LISTN and is quite a convoluted cross-categorisation that requires a great deal of WP:SYNTH to formulate. The list also doesn't really make sense eg Phillip Hammond being listed despite currently being Chancellor of the Exchequer. Pure listcruft. I would also ask the closer not to overlook the WP:PA in this discussion which are becoming far too common from some editors. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: List is also woefully incomplete and given how cabinet shuffles are very common in the UK, this seems indiscriminate.2601:241:300:B610:9B5:5BBE:9803:FD47 (talk) 00:45, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer#List_of_Chancellors_of_the_Exchequer, Foreign Secretary, Secretary of State for Justice, and others have lifespans on the individuals. That's welcome to be added to others, but when these and pages like Third Blair ministry already provide "a sensible purpose of indexing and navigation", there's no basis for keeping this that's an excessive cross-categorization. Reywas92^Talk 14:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I would fully support the arguments for deletion made above, and also note that this list has not really been maintained and also seems a bit inconsistent about duplicating information. In general while the earliest living cabinet minister might be of note, I don't think a list is the way to do this on Wikipedia. To be honest if someone wants to know if a former cabinet minister is still alive, searching for their article seems the obvious way to it. Dunarc (talk) 20:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm surprised to learn that everyone who served in Theresa May's cabinet is dead. Someone ought to look into that. pburka (talk) 21:15, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think that raises a legitimate issue about the problems if a page like this is not well maintained - OK nobody is going to think that a member of a cabinet in a ministry which ended just over two years ago is dead, but there living are people missing from the first Cameron Cabinet (which started over a decade ago) like David Laws which could cause confusion for anybody relying on the list. The fact the list after 2010 is so poor makes me think editors don't see it as important enough to put work into. Dunarc (talk) 22:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - I agree. I think almost all lists of living people are high risk for BLP issues. Claiming someone is living (or, by omission, dead) without any possibility of a citation is obviously problematic. pburka (talk) 00:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The intersection of "has held public office X" and "is still alive" is to my eye self-evidently a WP:Non-encyclopedic cross-categorization, and as such WP:DELREASON#14 (Any other content not suitable for an encyclopedia) applies. Of all possible parameters to list this group of people by, being alive is certainly one of them – but so is being born on a Wednesday. It's also rather embarrassing how poorly maintained this list is, as noted above—even if there had been no other reasons for deletion, that would in my opinion have been sufficient reason to at least move the article to WP:Draftspace until that glaring issue had been addressed. TompaDompa (talk) 16:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - or, Andrew, perhaps you could userfy this and make it into the comprehensive list of cabinet ministers you mention. There is no clear value in distinguishing between living and dead ones here. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There is also a similar article Living former cabinet members of the Netherlands.2601:241:300:B610:196B:664B:339B:F670 (talk) 05:32, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.