Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Percy Baker (gymnast)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Gymnastics at the 1908 Summer Olympics – Men's team#Great Britain. The "keep" comments must be generally discounted because they do not provide sources establishing this person's notability, and therefore fail to address the WP:GNG argument for deletion. To the extent the "keep" opinions argue for inherent notability of Olympic competitors, this argument is unfounded in applicable guidelines. A redirection to where the person is mentioned is an appropriate WP:ATD. Sandstein 15:26, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Percy Baker (gymnast)

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Fails WP:NOTDATABASE and does not meet WP:GNG as a non-notable Olympian.

He competed as part of a team of 45 British Gymnasts in the 1908 Olympics, with his team coming last, with us knowing little beyond that - we don't even know the month he died in. BilledMammal (talk) 08:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. BilledMammal (talk) 08:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. BilledMammal (talk) 08:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: While I have been unable to find coverage, and I don't believe coverage is likely to exist, I had intended to leave the article tagged as having notability problems for a while to give editors a chance to search for coverage that might demonstrate notability. Unfortunately, the tag was removed without sources being provided or the removal being explained. BilledMammal (talk) 08:06, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Saying Fails WP:NOTDATABASE" is rubbish - "1. Summary-only descriptions of works." N/A here. "2. Lyrics databases." - No, not even close. "3. Excessive listings of unexplained statistics" Nothing here is excessive or unexplained. "4. Exhaustive logs of software updates" No, another fail. The individual was a six-time champion. At worst, redirect to Gymnastics at the 1908 Summer Olympics – Men's team per WP:ATD, WP:PRESERVE and WP:R#KEEP. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:22, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- The article is sourced entirely to databases; it cannot not fail WP:DATABASE. You also don't address the WP:GNG issue - you say he is a six time champion, but we don't know any details - all we know is that he "won six titles as a member of the St Saviour’s team". I would note that I oppose a redirect, as I don't believe a disambiguated redirect is useful. BilledMammal (talk) 08:31, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep See Welsh sources on Bibliography of Welsh History. Welsh newspapers online (at least) should have details about him if someone has time to search. At the moment, I don't, but may do later. Tony Holkham (Talk) 09:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for that resource. However, I haven't been able to find any coverage of this gymnast within it. BilledMammal (talk) 10:14, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In 15 minutes? Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:51, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A little longer than that, but yes. There are no results for "Percy Baker" combined with any of "Gymnast", "Gymnastics", "Olympics", or "Olympian", and a manual review of all news results for "Percy Baker" between 1900 and 1911 didn't show anything that appeared to relate to this Percy Baker. BilledMammal (talk) 10:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The search should also be for "P A Baker" (I often get hits that way for UK people of that period). The Welsh Newspapers Online website is down for me, so can't run that search for now. Atchom (talk) 01:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you; that helped me find this passing mention, and this image, where P A Baker is mentioned in the caption. The same image and caption appears in a few other papers, but again nothing more - no significant coverage. However, if the article is kept that photo is now out of copyright and can be used for the article. BilledMammal (talk) 02:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I think it is right to keep these early Olympic competitors even if they don't meet today's notability standards. They were trailblazers. Deb (talk) 10:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Deb (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diff)[reply]
- That's perfectly true. I was informed of the discussion, presumably because of my interest in articles on topics relating to Wales. Deb (talk) 14:29, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Wikipedia needs to be built on clear sources. There are none for this subject.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:19, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I ran his name through the British Newspaper Archive and found nothing. There is a short bio on the Team GB website (https://www.teamgb.com/athlete/p-a-baker/3I8mslymQLWIfQJxa3lr1a) but it seems to be a rewrite of Olympedia. I tend toward delete. Atchom (talk) 01:41, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 09:22, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, there are some mentions, but tricky to find and maybe not passing WP:SIGCOV. Quite a few hits mention him as being part of the gymnastics club, which had won awards as a collective. I would probably lean redirect to Gymnastics at the 1908 Summer Olympics – Men's team rather than outright delete. As mentioned above, often in historic sources, sportspeople were referred to by initials rather than full-name and can sometimes be more fruitful in searches. I would wonder if there is more notability and coverage in the club "St Saviours" than the individual. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Lugnuts, Tony and Deb. The trailblazer comment is especially appropriate. The canvassing accusation is entirely inappropriate. Claiming NOTDATABASE here is not only irrelevant but completely wrong because the article has not been created as a database – its sourcing is a matter for WP:V, WP:RS, etc. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:24, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Olympics-related deletion discussions. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:14, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Question do we know whether there's any possible music ties. I'm getting a lot about a musical gymnast, specifically in this source and the timing is right. Not enough info yet to evaluate, but as a lead for someone who may have more scholarly access. Star Mississippi 00:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe they are a different person; they appear to have the first initial of "J" and this Percy Baker would have been 12 when that ad was published. BilledMammal (talk) 02:34, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.