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November 24

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Cthulhu mythos categories

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep species. delete alien species --Kbdank71 15:17, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cthulhu mythos species
Category:Cthulhu mythos alien species
Delete. These categories seem unnecessary. Many of these articles could be merged into a single article, and larger articles could simply be marked with Category:Cthulhu mythos.
Weak Delete. My position has softened somewhat on this issue. I don't want to completely shut down the delete possibility; however, deleting both categories may be futile, because at least one (probably the former) is likely to get recreated anyway. RlyehRising 19:10, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Alternate possibly. Merge into a single category, i.e., Category:Cthulhu mythos species
RlyehRising 23:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. There's too much material in these articles to meaningfully merge them, the result would just be gigantic articles with independant article-like subsections. The division between "fictional species" and "fictional alien species" is also useful, in that it keeps the parent categories for fictional species and fictional alien species neat. Bryan 01:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • A problem is that it's difficult to decide which category to put them in. A few examples (this is about to get weird): In the case of the Deep Ones, August Derleth has them coming from outer space, yet Lovecraft's writings seem to suggest they are terrestrial in origin (in fact, he never actually said where they originated). The nightgaunts inhabit the Dreamlands—a parallel dimension—yet most mythos enthusiasts would object to classifying them as an alien species. The shoggoths were supposedly created on Earth by the Elder Things (making them terrestrial in origin), yet in Lovecraft's poem Fungi from Yuggoth, they are frolicking in an underground lake on one of Yuggoth's moons (so are they actually extraterrestrials?). The Serpent people could be terrestrial, but there are hints that they came from Venus. The same problem arises when classifying the Chthonians and the Yuggs—are they extraterrestrials or did they originate on Earth? (I warned you this was going to be weird.) RlyehRising 04:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • I guess when in sufficient amount of doubt they should be bumped up to "fictional species", and if enough of them go up a level like that then merging the remaining alien species category into the parent category would be prudent. But the base "Cthulhu mythos species" category should remain one way or the other, there's enough articles to justify it IMO. Bryan 06:24, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Cthulhu mythos species; Don't care about the other one. -- Mkill 00:24, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Rivers of Canada

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Governors' mansions to Category:Governors' mansions in the United States

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is an American category so it should say so. There are governor's mansions in other countries as well. Rename Category:Governors' mansions in the United States CalJW 21:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Research ships of the United States to Category:Research vessels of the United States

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Both have one article. Given the rather diverse nature of research vessels, vessels would be more appropriate. Joshbaumgartner 20:55, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Animation Legends

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

POV. - EurekaLott 19:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 14:59, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since Category:Pro-life politicians is nominated I'm also listing these to achieve a better consensus.

I propose either deleting, or if they are of merit, renaming to reflect they categorise only Americans:

  • Delete or rename Hiding talk 14:41, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all as unverififiable. (or perhaps as "over verifiable"; most everyone can be quoted as saying "abortion is bad", but exactly how one says that, and in what context, is a political hot potato such that no one could be NPOV categorized). FWIW, I might be more sympathetic to cats involving "Abortion rights activists" or "Anti-abortion activists"... if, e.g. an actor heads some national organization or the like, that's a more clear standard than how they privately feel or passingly comment. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:21, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listify so that citations, specifics, and solid evidence can be provided on this very controversial topic, thus allowing us to make the page comprehensive and accurate. This is a highly significant topic, but categories are too simplistic and limited to allow us to provide the proper nuances and sourcing needed. Also rename to List of pro-life people rather than List of pro-life celebrities, because it makes no difference whether a noteworthy person is a "celebrity" or not in this context. See also Category talk:Pro-life celebrities. -Silence 17:36, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • DELETE ALL and use "abortion-access" and "anti-abortion" instead of "pro-choice" and "pro-life" (especially since many pro-life people support the death penalty, which is an anti-life position) 132.205.45.110 19:01, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete All and see my reasoning relative to the Category:Pro-life politicians debate. Soltak | Talk 20:08, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. Not verifiable enough. -- Crevaner 22:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete for the celebrities category, I started that category because there was only a category for pro-lifers at the time. Keep for the politician category, as that information is mroe relevant.--Fallout boy 05:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP ALL Informative categories that provide valid information. Stop with the censorship! Dwain 00:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP ALL Why all the hostility toward the pro-life POV? It exists. Why try to hide it? According to almost every mainstream poll ever taken (including polls as recent as 2004) more than half the people in the USA think abortion is almost always morally wrong and think that abortion should be severely restricted. Funny that such a viewpoint is seen as somehow worthy of censorship. Goodandevil 01:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. People articles should not be categorized by their position on an issue. However, if they are pro-life or pro-choice activists, then categorize them appropriately. Classify what someone does, not by what they say or allege to think. Opinions make for a poor classification, particularly on an issue that has so many possible variations of belief (only in cases of rape or incest? always up until viability?) and so many possible ways in which to express and found an opinion (personally opposed, but legally in favor; personally in favor, but believe it's not a constitutional right). And opinions change... Considering how we classify things by what they were at any time (George W. Bush will continue to be in Category:Presidents of the United States long after he leaves office), would the article of someone who then switches their stance then be categorized both as pro-life and as pro-choice? Postdlf 02:43, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all. Interesting and informative. AnnH (talk) 12:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dwain's comments on Category:Pro-life politicians, Soltak's comments notwithstanding. I don't think anybody is trying to hide anything, but clearly a lot of people think this is "uninteresting" based on their own personal point of view, while others think it is interesting based on theirs. Since it's clearly interesting to some people it should remain. Only people who want to minimize the importance of those who think it is interesting seem to want it out. This is a keep vote for the "celebrities" categories. I don't think the "politicians" categories are all that informative, actually, since it is usually either implicit in the politician's affiliation or else irrelevant. But let me editorialize a bit about why I created the celebrities category. I was writing somewhere else about Martin Sheen and making a point from the fact that he was (I presumed) pro-choice. Then I went to read about him and found out that I was wrong. This was very, very interesting to me, and I wanted a way to find other such folks in the entertainment industry who held this position, since they seem to be vanishingly rare. The irony is that later information surfaced that made Sheen's position appear more ambiguous, and he was (last I checked) removed from the category, appropriately, I think. But there are some very clear cut cases, and if it's significant enough to note in an entertainer's Wikipedia article, such as in the case of Kate Mulgrew, then it is significant enough to have a category to group these people. Perhaps the categories should be renamed to "Pro-life entertainers," since the term "celebrities" is a bit vague. Jdavidb (talk • contribs) 13:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. Categorizing "celebrities" on this is even worse than categorizing politicians. See also my reasoning at the other category. Listify if you want to, but don't overdo it.--Pharos 18:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep if verifiable, and with current names (just because I like shorter category names). TomerTALK 14:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep All The two views are most widely known as "pro-choice" and "pro-life". Down with PC-ness!! Borisblue 01:00, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It's important to know who the killers are so you can boycott them Golfcam 00:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all, too difficult to verify, especially for politicians. --TantalumTelluride 00:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Indian cuisine to Category:Cuisine of India

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 14:56, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The renaming would be consistent with the article name and other top-level Indian categories like Category:Economy of India, Category:History of India,etc.,. Pamri • Talk 14:18, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, fair enough. Will nominate for mass renaming. --Pamri • Talk 15:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support Ideally all Fooian cuisine pages on Category:Cuisine by nationality should be changed to Cuisine of Foo, just as we have categories History of Foo and not Fooian history, Economy of Foo and not Fooian economy, etc. If at all it is possible to run all these 74 CfDs, I think the rename should happen. Aesthetically speaking, it is important to have some uniformity. If we are going to end up with half articles named in either style, it won't make much sense. deeptrivia 14:53, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, it's the cuisine of the Indian people rather than the country of India, isn't it? Hiding talk 15:02, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
No...The cuisine of India includes the cuisine of the Indian subcontinent and also Indian cuisine abroad. --Pamri • Talk 15:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You are confirming what Hiding said! Surely the first word of your comment should have been "yes". CalJW 17:27, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
As CalJW notes, at least we agree it's Indian cuisine. Hiding talk 17:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:American Filmmakers

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:55, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This category either needs a rename or a merge depending on how "filmmaker" is interpreted. At a minimum it needs a rename to Category:American filmmakers to conform with the capitalization rules that are followed by the other children of Category:American people by occupation and at most it needs to be merged into Category:American film directors. In the article space filmmaker is a redirect to film director, but the term can also apply to film producers, especially director-producers. I would prefer a rename but would find a merge acceptible if needed to reach consensus. Caerwine 13:47, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Kabbalah followers

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This category was recently created by an anonymous user. While it may reflect a trend in pop culture it nevertheless poses a huge problem from a scholarly point of view. It is a patently silly category. Is Wikipedia now in the business of "categorizing" the personal habits and crazes of celebrities such as Britney Spears and Demi Moore who are not even Jewish? How about millions of other genuine followers and rabbis throughout the ages, will they eventually be put into this "category" as well? Will Ashton Kutcher and Madonna "come together" with Rabbi Isaac Luria and sainted Hasidic mystics? The thought of this happening is too ridiculous for words. This absurd category should be deleted ASAP. IZAK 10:34, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Alleged relics of Jesus to Category:Relics attributed to Jesus

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 14:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This category was nominated for renaming on 14th September. It was agreed that the present name is POV, but not what to change it to. This name was suggested towards the end of the vote, so I am renominating this category to see if consensus can be reached. G Rutter 09:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, attributed means they have been assigned an association, and therefore suffers the same POV as alleged, because it are casts some doubt on the possible authenticity. Hiding talk 17:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting: I read alleged as meaning "probably isn't" and both attributed and associated as meaning "might be". So, I don't really see any difference in meaning between them but I do agree with Lulu that attributed sounds better. --G Rutter 20:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Attributed is quite neutral. For example the remark about "I didn't have time to make it any shorter" is often attributed to Fermat. Did he write it or not? I dunno. But by stating the attribution I am not prejudging the accuracy of the attribution. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 01:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I was attempting to say! --G Rutter 17:54, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, it's possible I have a tin ear on this, so I am happy to Rename per nom. Hiding talk 18:18, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think both offers here are pretty much factual, or at least have the same kind of POV insofar as they directly promote these objects to the status of relics of JC. That's only possible if you, or someone else, accepts that by belonging to the person JC they acquire some particular properties: my theology is weak to non-existent, but I would imagine that non-Christians do not assign any special status to these objects. Perhaps its the use of the word "relic". But there's no other palatable suggestion, so rename, but I don't mind to which. Some more precise title altogether, stating which organization has declared them to have such an association? That wouldn't be POV, it would be a statement of hard fact. -Splashtalk 14:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is that we'd have to create a number of sub-cats as different organisations/churches recongise different relics as being true (and some individual articles would probably end up in multiple sub-cats!). The advantage of the cat saying attributed to is that each article can then state how and why the particular relic has been attributed to Jesus. --G Rutter 17:54, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Pattern recognition

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Previously deleted category (see [1]). Reasons for deletion still stand: redundant with Category:Machine learning and Category:Classification algorithms, ambiguous (do we mean human pattern recognition or machine pattern recognition?), empty/deleted for several months now. -- hike395 04:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy delete This was an attempt by a new user to restructure Category:Computer science. —R. Koot 2:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

that debate was over whether to delete the cat or not and in the midst of it this cat name was proposed and adopted. the debate this time is focussed solely on the name, which, again, sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb. -Mayumashu 03:15, 25 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Writers of Ontario to Category:Ontario writers

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 14:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(that debate was on whether to delete the cat and the renaming came about part way through it. at any rate, -Mayumashu 13:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC))[reply]
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Category:Fictional books within the Cthulhu mythos

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was withdrawn --Kbdank71 14:37, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional books within the Cthulhu mythos —> Cthulhu mythos fictional books
Changing within to in would make the category name more concise. RlyehRising 04:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, it might be better to drop the adjective phrase altogether. This new category name would be consistent with the categories listed under Category:Cthulhu mythos.
RlyehRising 19:10, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
After spending nearly two hours trying to work out the grammatical niceties of this, all I got for my trouble was a splitting headache. Besides, the categories under the parent category (Category:Fictional books) seem to have no consistent naming standard anyway. Withdrawn. RlyehRising 18:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. "Fictional books within [series]" is clearer, less grammatically unsound, and used in other series' article titles. "Cthulhu mythos books" is ambiguous, and could be read as covering actual books that contained Mythos stories. -Sean Curtin 05:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Pro-life politicians

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 14:32, 2 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Difficult to verify and slightly POV. Also there is a existing list, List of anti-abortion people. «»Who?¿?meta 01:56, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, this is definitely "politics by categorization". I just removed Susan B. Anthony from the cat, who died seven decades before there was a "pro-life" movement (per cat description). With cats like this its always a matter of labelling "the folks we like" or "the folks we want to be associated with". Essentially every politician has said "abortion is bad" in some context, but you can't say which context "counts" and follow NPOV. Does Bill Clinton's "make abortion safe, legal, and rare" count? Why? Why not? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 17:36, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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