Talk:Battle of Toretsk

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Needs to be linked with ru:Бои за Торецк. 82.36.165.47 (talk) 17:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How do we know the Russian military's objectives here?

Hello to all my respected fellow editors. I am attempting to verify, through reliable sources, this statement which is asserted in the lede:

The battle of Toretsk is an ongoing engagement...for control of the city of Toretsk.

I understand it may seem self-evident, but which sources have said explicitly that the objective of this Russian offensive is to take control over the city of Toretsk?

Indeed, ISW of 27 June characterized the Russian offensive in the Toretsk area as diversionary, assessed that the Russian force strength in the area was very likely insufficient for an operation to seize the town [Toretsk], and in fact speculated that Russian forces may... have no intention of making significant tactical gains in the Toretsk direction and may hope that offensive operations in the area will apply pressure on Ukrainian forces along a wider front in Donetsk Oblast and facilitate gains in the Chasiv Yar and Avdiivka directions.

Hopefully this helps demonstrate that the assertion that this battle/engagement/offensive has the definitive aim of taking control over Toretsk is not by any means a sure thing.

Ping @Flemmish Nietzsche. Thanks all. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SaintPaulOfTarsus I don't think there's any doubt (except from that one ISW statement) that Russian forces are trying to capture Toretsk itself; all media outlets specify, or at least imply, when mentioning the offensive that the main goal is to capture the city.

Some articles mentioning such goal: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

In a RFE/RL article (which has questionable reliability but is just repeating what someone said), for example, a Ukrainian colonel says that "Toretsk is likely the primary objective for Russian commanders right now [...] because capturing it would give Russia control over a wider urban area stretching along the western edges of the Donetsk region."

Also, why would Russia increase shelling and attacks on Toretsk itself so much if the intention was not to capture it? Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 18:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Flemmish Nietzsche: Thank you for sharing these URLs. In particular, Kyiv Post and the RFE/RL quote you mentioned demonstrate conclusively that your view is shared by Ukrainian military commanders. I would still object to this being written in wiki voice in the lede but I think it would be perfectly appropriate with a qualifier something like according to Ukrainian military officials.

Regarding Reuters, Deutsche Welle, and New York Times #2, unless there is something I'm missing, if there is any speculation here regarding the Russian military's objectives, I think it is implied too subtly and vaguely to be authoritative here. Similarly I do not see NYT #1 as necessarily authoritative or holding the same weight as the others if it is only that image caption.

Your last sentence looks to me like begging the question. A plan to capture Toretsk is probably the most logical explanation if we were to apply Occam's razor here, but I encourage you to keep an open mind and not to jump to conclusions when it comes to the potential objectives of ongoing military operations. There is always the possibility of an elaborate feint or a maneuver like the one described in the ISW quote I included above. But at the end of the day, we should follow the RS and reduce our own personal speculation to a minimum. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 01:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]