Talk:János vitéz

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Poetry

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Plot summary

A minor point that is incorrect: the stepmother of Iluska is not killed by Sir John but a giant (see the last six quatrains of part 21). I'll fix that.

Regarding "Land of the Fairies", I think this is a somewhat misleading translation for "Tündérország". In Hungarian folklore, "tündér" refers to a creature who helps humans, while fairies are not particularly friendly to humans (if we can believe the WP article about them).

K issL 12:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

what would the poet do?

There is a statement (Petőfi] "would have doubtless approved" the ending of the musical. This is pure speculation. --Hkoala (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ouch. Yeah, you're right. How about this? It's unverified, of course (not out of line for a stub article like this one), but at least not blatant speculation. What do you think? Korossyl (talk) 18:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ridland Translation

I'm not certain about the merits of the recent page move and changing of names to reflect Ridland's 1909 translation. Just because a translation exists as a published work -- does that necessarily mean that we should adopt its idiosyncrasies as the "official" Wikipedia version? What especially bothers me is how far Ridland strays from the literal meaning of the poem. "János Vitéz" does not mean "John the Valiant," "Kukorica Jancsi" is not "Johnny Grain o'Corn," and "Illuska" is certainly not "Nelly." While I think Ridland's work should be mentioned, even given a subsection, I don't think it should be adopted uncritically as the page's basis. Korossyl (talk) 14:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your work that you made but your translation is not a literary translation but Ridland's. The whole translation is readable online. I think Iluska and Kukoricza Jancsi are original Hungarian names, a non-Hungarian-speaking reader need not meet incomprehensible names and words. I humanly understand your resentment but as we Hungarians can read world literature in Hungarian as well and names are translated into Hungarian which does not hurt that language from which the work is translated. So I think the English equivalents John the Valiant, Johnny Grain o'Corn, Nelly does not hurt Hungarian language and Petőfi. Why do you think that your translation Sir John and Johnny Corn whould be better? Please accept that there exists a very good literary translation and let's be glad that the English-speaking audiance can read and enjoy the great reading of our childhood in English. I think unfortunately they are not able to comprehend it in Hungarian like you and me.Borgatya (talk) 01:20, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Professor Emeritus John M. Ridland was born in London in 1933 of Scottish ancestry, but has lived most of his life in California. He taught writing and literature in the English Department and the College of Creative Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, for over forty years. His poems have appeared in many journals, including Poetry, The Atlantic, Harper's, The Hudson Review, The Dark Horse, Spectrum, The Nation, New Zealand Books, Quadrant (Australia), River Styx, Solo, Askew, Parnassus, and The Hungarian Quarterly. His published books include: Fires of Home, Ode on Violence, In the Shadowless Light, Elegy for My Aunt, Palms, Life with Unkie, (Un)Extinguished Lamp/Lampara Anapagada, and A Brahms Card Ballad, which was published in Hungarian translation by the Europa Press three years before it was published by Dowitcher Press in California. With his New Zealand-born wife Muriel, he wrote And Say What He Is: The Life of a Special Child, published in 1975 by the MIT Press. They have two living children and three grandchildren. Visiting Hungary in 1987, he learned of János Vitéz, a "folk epic" poem by Sándor Petöfi, which he later translated as John the Valiant, published first by the Corvina Press Budapest (1999), again by the Devi Foundation in Pécs (2001), and in 2004 in an edition still in print, by the Hesperus Press, London. With Peter Czipott he continues to translate work by the Hungarian poets Sándor Márai and Miklós Radnóti, including Márai's two-act verse play in rhyming couplets, A Gentleman from Venice, about Giacomo Casanova." Source: Bio of John M. Ridland

I think Professor of Literature and poet John M. Ridland is the most excellent literary tranlator to translate one of the most favourite poem of one of the greatest Hungarian poet, Sándor Petőfi into English.Borgatya (talk) 02:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply. In the original article, I included the translations "Sir John" and "Johnny Corn" as merely the meanings of words in another language -- placed in parentheses and quotes, and not used throughout the article. They were present only to indicate to English readers what would be obvious to Hungarian readers. They're straight translations, and take no artistic or literary license. The rest of the article used Kukorica Jancsi and Janos Vitez.

My issue with Ridland's work is twofold. In the first place, while "Jancsi" is indeed the diminutive of "Janos," which is the Hungarian version of "John" whose diminutive is "Johnny," I don't believe that means that "Jancsi" is really equivalent to "Johnny." Johnny is a quintessential English (or moreso, American) name, and it's difficult to imagine a "Johnny" as a person of another nation, another ethnic background. Far more so with the last name "Grain o'Corn" -- which really couldn't be anyone other than a yokel from the American South. Yes, it's more familiar to English speakers, but I don't think familiarity is necessarily the most important consideration. There's such a thing as overfamiliarity, and I believe it detracts from English readers' experience to have all of the original flavor of the text anglicized.

But this is just my opinion. More importantly, I don't believe it's Wikipedia's policy to translate proper names, either in life or in fiction. Compare Lajos Kossuth, who is not Louis Kossuth; or War and Peace, where Pierre, Andrei, etc. remain as such rather than becoming Peter, Andrew, etc.

In the second place, there's the problem of the section dealing with Kacsoh Pongrac's musical adaptation. Ridland did not translate this work, and I think it's unfair to apply his naming conventions to it. Furthermore, there's a strange sort of dissonance when Johnny Grain o'Corn is best friends with a man named "Bagó" -- a name entirely out of keeping with the other anglicized names.

I share your sympathy with those who have no access to this masterpiece in the mother tongue, and I think the fact that a complete translation exists -- and a free one, no less! -- deserves mention, even a subsection. Here, the name translations could be mentioned and highlighted, but without reshaping the entire article to one translator's preferences.

What do you think? Korossyl (talk) 03:21, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately your words cannot convince me. I understand your intention but I do not agree with you because first a translation even a literary translation can never be perfect, you're right, Nelly is not Iluska but second do not forget, it's an English-speaking article, the mood of Kukorica Jancsi is not felt by the people who do not speak Hungarian (they cannot pronounce it exactly but they don't need it) but the translation Johnny Grain o'Corn can help them to show the approximate (??%) meaning. If there is an excellent literary translation, why don't we use it?Borgatya (talk) 04:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's a matter of "using" or "not using" a translation -- I think it's a matter of what's the best for an encyclopedia article. The fact is, my opinion that the original names are better for English speakers and your opinion that Ridland's names are better for English speakers are just two subjective opinions: I think one way, you think another. Since we're working on an encyclopedia, I think the only objective thing to do is to leave the names as they are in the original, rather than try to impose our (or someone else's) opinion of how the names should be "best" translated.

I don't think you completely addressed my point about precedents for original-language names -- why not Peter for Pierre, and Andrew for Andrei in War and Peace? Why not Louis Kossuth? And these are examples where direct translations are possible.

As I said, I'm grateful to Ridland for making the work available to the widest possible audience. I think it deserves mention and treatment in the article. But it's one man's translation of an established literary work 150 years later -- it's not by any means authoritative, and thus not suitable, I think, to be used as the default template for an encyclopedia article. Korossyl (talk) 04:44, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your examples are wrong and Lajos Kossuth more worst because he is a historical figure and even in War and Peace even the fictional names are real-like, like the real names but Kukorica Jancsi and Iluska are nickname not official names, so they can be translated like Cinderella, Snow White or Sleeping Beauty. It's a tale. But we cannot need to quarrel, because these names are translated and there's no exact rule for translating names and fictional names are easily translateable. And think about the names of the rulers, they are translated: Alexander the Great.Borgatya (talk) 05:11, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by "not official names" -- Jancsi, Janos, Illuska are all names used in common and proper parlance, not names made up by Petofi. It's why Ridland translated them the way he did. They're just as real or as fictional as War and Peace. Rulers are not translated because that's how they're best known to English-speaking audiences. The English-speaking world has been calling Alexander the Great "Alexander" for hundreds, perhaps a thousand years. It's the name that's been established for him. As I was saying above, John the Valiant, on the other hand, was published 13 years ago. It hasn't had time to become authoritative (if it ever will). At the moment, it's a very good, very useful translation, but it's not appropriate, I think, to be made the basis for an encyclopedia article. Korossyl (talk) 13:51, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If there's no more discussion, and as the page was moved and heavily changed without prior discussion, I'm going to go ahead and move the page back to its earlier location, restore the names, and then try to add a subsection regarding the Ridland translation. Korossyl (talk) 15:27, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, that's all complete; I think we should continue to discuss the merits or concerns of the issues above here before taking any further drastic action one way or another. I also the think the Ridland section adds quite a bit of value to the article! Korossyl (talk) 16:00, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]