Talk:Jusuf Mehonjić

Page is total misinformation

politically motivated false facts:

1. Albanizing birth names such as Jusufs himself. His wife "Naze" actual name is Naza (Kolić) Mehonjić. This is also the case of some other sandzak komitas mentioned in the article like Husein Bošković who somehow got an albanian name and that's passed of as fact. Doing stuff like that discredits any source becouse because it's disingenuous and history re-writing.

2. It is very true that the Sandzak komitas where cooperating with the kosovo ones and there is in fact a photo of Jusuf with Mula Agan Kojić around a group of kosovo albanians which is used out of context in this case. Sandzak komitas started fighting as early as 1914 helping Austrian troops fighting against Serbian & Montenegrin soldiers meanwhile the kosovo komita didn't see existence until 1918 and didn't see cooperation with the sandzak ones until 1921. Jusuf Mehonjić himself didn't show any sort of particular albanian nationalism/patriotism as a qoute from him shows his political motivation was leaning more at waiting for the ottomans to help against the discrimination balkan muslims where facing:

In bosnian: "Evo vakta od Rata Balkana, kako činim hizmet za sultana. Pored Vjere i svoga Vatana, rad Turskoga ljuta sibijana. Rad Namaza našega sultana, svesam protiv Dinskog dušmanina u komitu ispatijo dušu, Ne ostaje Brda ni Doline ni Zelene Gore ni planine što nijesam krvlju obojio i moijem plačom probudio dragi care Tebe čekajući dabi na nas okrenuo glavu. Evo vakta Devet godina dana komitujem u protiv dušmana a sve čekam Nazar od sultana Pa sam Boga jemin učinijo dok se šeću Postamboli Turci i drugari po planini vuci neću Vlaškoj postupiti ruci" - Jusuf Mehonić DennisBIH (talk) 14:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

That's all very well, but you have not provided any reliable sources for your statements above, so how is anyone to know that these are not just your opinions? Please advise what reliable sources you are relying on for what you have said above. Your persistent deletion of reliable sources like Morrison etc will just result in a report and likely block, and the article will just remain the way it is, which is clearly not what you would like to see. If you want to change the way the article is written then the only way to achieve that is to discuss the sources and what they say here on the talk page. I acknowledge that local sources may be written from a biased perspective, so in the meantime I will seek additional reliable sources on Mehonjić to add to the article. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi thank u for the reply. Sorry for the late response. What would constitue a reliable source? Wouldnt that be kind of hard to prove? How can albanian sources qoute books by bised writters or proffesors and it gets accepted as truth? If i have a writter source which one would be considerd fact then between mine and theirs specially if they cant even get names right? Hope u understand what im asking. DennisBIH (talk) 23:54, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Jusuf Mehonjić ethnicity

You said that Albanians lived in Šahovići can you give a proof for it and another proof that Mehonjić himself was Albanian? @botushal i‎ Eldoradoo1 (talk) 01:30, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

During the early 20th century, Šahovići was the administrative centre of the kaza of Kolašin (during Jusuf Mehonja's time). Demographic data compiled by the Bulgarian foreign ministry in 1901-02 reported that Šahovići was populated by 25 Albanian households. The kaza of Kolašin itself had 27 Albanian villages with 732 households and 5 Serb villages with 75 households. That's an overwhelming Albanian majority not only in Šahovići, but the entire region as well - Sanxhak was inhabited by many Albanians prior to their assimilation into a "Bosniak" identity.

In regards to Mehonja himself, here is another source that refers to him as an Albanian aside from those already cited on the article: Lahutarët e Sanxhakut të Pazarit të Ri - Sanxhaku i Pazarit të Ri në fokusin e historisë - [1]. More can also be found when I have the time to look for them. Botushali (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC) Botushali (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

During the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and before it, there is no neutral proof that Jusuf Mehonjić was Albanian.

Anyways, Bosniaks in Bosnia and Sandžak weren't allowed to use Bosniak as their national identity, which is why they were just called Muslims (as nationality). This wasn't the case for Albanians because they had their national identity; they were called Arbanasi or Arnauti in Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

In all old documents, Jusuf Mehonjić was introduced as a Muslim rebel from Sandžak(German document 1928 use "muhamedan" which was another term used at that time to describe Bosniaks and many other sources could be found). "Muslim" at that time was a nationality used for Bosniaks in Bosnia and Sandžak. Another proof is that a family member of Jusuf Mehonjić, who moved from Bijelo Polje to Prijepolje were DNA tested (they all identify themselves as Bosniaks) they had typical Bosnian haplogroup i2a1 which has no connection to Albanian origin. Mehonjić DNA.

At least it would be fair not to use nationality rather than using the fake one and instead just put "The leader of the Muslim insurgents in Sandžak.

You seem familiar with the topic, so you should be aware that the term “Muslim” was used to also assimilate Albanians by removing the Albanian aspect of their identity during the Yugoslavia period.

There was no such thing as “Bosniaks” in Sanxhak/Plavë/Gucia/Rozhajë until the Yugoslavia era, when Slavic-speaking Muslims (of both Albanian and Slavic origin) began to be called “Bosniaks” to lump them into a new identity that will drag them away from their original identities. There are sources calling Mehonja Albanian and the inhabitants of his village during his time as Albanian, but there is a lack of sources that refer to them as Bosnians. We use sources to dictate Wikipedia articles, but we cannot not personal opinions or hypotheses.

Additionally, genetic research that has not been published in scholarly work is generally avoided on Wikipedia, but as a side note, certain branches of I2a1 were absorbed into the Albanian population centuries ago. I2a1 represents a large part of the ~20% of Albanian haplogroups that aren’t related to Paleo-Balkanic peoples but were absorbed over a period of many centuries. The other ~80% represent the main Albanian haplogroups that were inherited from Paleo-Balkanic peoples such as Dardanians and Illyrians (EV13, J2b, R1b etc). Either way, Wikipedia is not a forum (WP:NOTFORUM), so this isn’t really the place to discuss genetics. Botushali (talk) 23:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't used to assimilate Albanians, it was used for Slavic Muslims. At the beginning of the 18th century, some Albanian tribes settled the eastern part of Sandžak, Muslim population is Sandžak dates long before this event happened, so before albanians came, here were Slavic Muslims (Bosniaks). Those Albanian tribes mostly came from the north part of Albania. Skhreli, klimenti, Hoti. They came as Catholics who changed religion to Islam, later assimilated themselves into local Slavic Muslim population, also DNA is only because many Albanians use dna to prove that eastern Bosniaks are of Albanian origin. So this is one case that Albanians try to assimilated Slavic Muslims In addition to those who are already assimilated for example Shala tribe who are clearly of Slavic origin with I-S17250.

I suggest to put "The leader of the Muslim insurgents in Sandžak and a member of the Kosovo committee" especially for the person where nationality is not clearly specified and makes people use vandalism cuz clearly nobody believes he's Albanian.

Eldoradoo1 (talk) 07:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

In addition to those who are already assimilated for example Shala tribe who are clearly of Slavic origin with I-S17250. Please refrain from posting such erroneous statements again - I’m quite certain the patrilineal branch of the Shala is R1b-M269. All of the individuals who claim descent from the Shala but belong to alternative haplogroups are not actually descended from the original Shala.

Anyways, regarding Sanxhak, please take a look at the actual Sanxhak article, as I believe there are plenty of sources that describe the demographics of the region in the past. The Albanians have been a very important component of Sanxhak’s population in the past, and their recent assimilation into “Bosniaks” does not discount their presence or history in the region.

Another point - you state here that Bosniaks = Slavic Muslims. So the only thing that separates them (according to you) from Serbians and Croatians is their faith. That’s like saying Albanian Muslims, Albanian Catholics and Orthodox Albanians form three different ethnicities, but that’s not the case. The Bosniaks of Bosnia itself and those in other parts of the Balkans are not the same. The Gorani, for example, as well as Muslim Albanians who transitioned to the Slavic tongue and local Slavic Muslims from Montenegro/Sanxhak have all been lumped together as “Bosniaks” during the time of Yugoslavia. They did not refer to themselves as “Bosniaks” before that.

In the end, unless you have reliable sources which disprove that Mehonja, Mehonja’s village, and many parts of the Sanxhak region in general were Albanian, then a change cannot be made. WP:RS dictates Wikipedia articles, not personal opinions. Botushali (talk) 08:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

There's many people who claim to be from Shala tribe with i2a (Slavic subclade) so clearly they're assimilated into "original Shala"

I never said that Albanians weren't important component of Sandžak population, i said that some tribes from Albania came in 18th century in Sandžak.

You mentioned Slavic Muslim who lived there so I just followed up on that term to make it clearer for you, cuz Sandžak region was connect to Bosnia elayet for hundreds of years and that people was considered the same as the people from today's territory of Bosnia. Anyways, no, religion isn't the only thing that distinguishes Bosniaks from other Slavs. There's difference between tradition, language, culture besides religion between Slavs. But it's a topic for itself.

Again, my point is that Muslim was a nationality used for people in Bosnia and Sandžak mainly. In most documents it says that Jusuf Mehonjić was a "Muslim rebel from Sandžak" also by the consensus of Wikipedia we should use the territorial designation for people where ethnicity is unclear or not overemphasized. Greetings. Eldoradoo1 (talk) 09:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The fact that he was Muslim is quite obvious, but there are sources which support an Albanian origin for Jusuf Mehonja, and even his village at the time was recorded as being inhabited by Albanians. As such, his description as an Albanian is quite accurate. Thanks. Botushali (talk) 10:53, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

References