Talk:Lazurite
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[edit]"It (lazulite) is often confused with lazurite, lapis lazuli or azurite". I exchanged the images. image:Lazuryt,_Niemcy.jpg looks like lapislazuli to me, a mix of minerals. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 11:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
What is the chemical formula?
[edit]Ummm ... The different references have contradictory chemical formulas. I trust the one from Mindat.org. (Na, Ca)8 (Al6 Si6 O24) (S, SO4, Cl2). Please, a geologist sort this out.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.212.34 (talk • contribs) 09:34, 4 March 2011
- One of the important things is that is contains the S3- ion to give it colour. That is not apparent in the formula, all we have is "s".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Graeme Bartlett (talk • contribs) 12:02, 4 March 2011
- Can you cite an authoritative reference for that formula?
- Heh. Theres also this formula: (Na,Ca)8 (Al6 Si6 O24)(S,SO4,Cl2). How can the same chemical have so many different formulas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.212.34 (talk) 13:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- The formula in the article essentially follows the Hurbut and Klein reference, (the ref I used back in Jan. 06) the Handbook of Mineralogy ref only varies by adding hydroxide. Both of those are "authoritative refs". The Webmineral data site provides a shorter version and the Mindat website seems to be offline right now. Vsmith (talk) 13:58, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- Mindat accessed now and they agree with formula given - the diffs are mainly sleight variations in order and paren locations. Vsmith (talk) 14:11, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
- There is a purist approach that one chemical formula and one crystal cell is one mineral, but reality is less strict. There are liquid IMA/CNMNC valid minerals (mercury), amorphous IMA/CNMNC valid minerals (allophane), and mineraloid IMA/CNMNC valid names (opal). Many minerals have a chemical formula as a range, some minerals don't have a complete description, yet. Lapis lazuli is the most expensive blue color of the antiquity, and Lazurite's chemical formula is one that is given as a range Na6Ca2Al6Si6O24[(SO4), S, Cl, (OH)]2. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 12:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, but you mix things up:
- Reality is:
- each mineral has an IDEAL formula, that is COMPLETELY INVARIABLE; if an ideal formula is variable then we have more than a single mineral
- "one crystal cell is one mineral": this doesn't make sense at all
- a crystal cell is a UNIT cell of a crystal; one crystal is a mineral, another one (e.g., a crystal of a virus; or any synthetic compound) is not - as simple as it is
- mercury IS NOT A MINERAL........... it is a mineralloid; also, mercury ALWAYS has the formula "Hg"
- allophane is not a mineral --- is is amorphous; however, it was known prior to IMA --> now it has the "grandfathered" status; it will soon be discredited
- Lapis lazuli IS NOT A MINERAL - it is actually a rock...
- Thus, again, a suggestion: first - become a mineralogist, accept the MINERALOGY rules (IMA), THEN comment Eudialytos (talk) 22:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- and again you are showing off "knowledge" which in reality has no coverage.... in reality
- sorry but you know what you are talking about Eudialytos (talk) 22:30, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- there is no such thing as "amorphous IMA/CNMNC valid minerals"
- mineral species has a STATUS; some have more than a single status
- allophane is a species NAMED before IMA --> IMA treats it as a GRANDFATHERED species
- as a (most likely, actually) amorphous compound, allophane will be discredited
- however,
- first, some studies must be done to confirm what actually comprises allophane, or allophanes
- This is how it works.
- Eudialytos (talk) 22:28, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is a purist approach that one chemical formula and one crystal cell is one mineral, but reality is less strict. There are liquid IMA/CNMNC valid minerals (mercury), amorphous IMA/CNMNC valid minerals (allophane), and mineraloid IMA/CNMNC valid names (opal). Many minerals have a chemical formula as a range, some minerals don't have a complete description, yet. Lapis lazuli is the most expensive blue color of the antiquity, and Lazurite's chemical formula is one that is given as a range Na6Ca2Al6Si6O24[(SO4), S, Cl, (OH)]2. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 12:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- This is, obviously, complex, because mineralogy has its own rights, as explained/set by the IMA (i.a.).
- 1.There are various types of formulas. Chemistry has its own types, and mineralogy has its own.
- 2. Each IMA-approved mineral species has an ideal formula (that may be, but does not necessarily has to be, a structural formula), and this formula is invariable.
- 3. Some people think that the parentheses with diadochy systems in minerals' formulas are mandatory. The reality is: sometimes yes (e.g., cation order case; stabilization of otherwise metastable structures), but usually not.
- 3. A lot of mineral species were first analyzed using old techniques; new techniques (e.g., micro-tts-diffraction, Pseudo-Gandolfi diffraction, neutron diffraction, PIXE/PIGE, micro-XANES, etc.) may sometimes show these species to:
- (a) have a different structure (i.e., a better structural model is obtained) --> new formula
- (b) turn out to be a mixture of more than a single species
- a & b is known as redefinition
- Eudialytos (talk) 22:37, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Lots of changes to lazurite
[edit]Lazurite is not what was thought to be some years ago. New Russian data clearly shows it to be very rare, currently exclusively known from the Malo-Bystrinskoe deposit (Russia). ALL the lapis lazuli material is LACKING LAZURITE. The blue colourant of the Afghan rock is haüyne. Also, the correct formula is: Na7Ca(Al6Si6O24)(SO4)(S3)·H2O.Eudialytos (talk) 07:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC) Refs.:
https://www.mindat.org/min-2357.html
https://mineralogy-ima.org/Minlist.htm
Sapozhnikov, A.N., Chukanov, N.V., Shendrik, R.Yu., Vigasina, M.F., Tauson, V.L., Lipko, S.V., Belakovskiy, D.I., Levitskii, V.I., Suvorova, L.F., Ivanova, L.A. (2021): Lazurite: validation as a mineral species and new data. Zapiski RMO: 150: 92-102.
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