Talk:Madagiz

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2016

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94.20.88.121 (talk) 08:00, 29 April 2016 (UTC)Madaghis is Azerbaijanian's old living land and real turish is Tar-tar but Armenian army occupied here in 1993 Nogorno Garabagh is false armenian rebublic[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 08:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

2016 comment

Reporting from Artsakh, Hetq Chief Editor Edik Baghdasaryan says that there is no truth to the claim made yesterday by Azerbaijan that it forces had captured the village of Mataghis in the northeastern district of Martakert.

“There were heavy clashes there yesterday. Azerbaijan’s military used all its arsenal in that direction. We suffered casualties, as reported by the Artsakh Defense Army. The Azerbaijani military staff figured that Armenian forces would retreat and that their forces would then triumphantly enter Mataghis. Just the opposite happened. After the artillery barrage, the Armenian forces responded in kind, picking them apart with precise strikes.”

Baghdasaryan reports that the retreating Azerbaijanis left their dead behind. He says he will try to ask the Karabakh authorities what will become of the corpses. Are negotiations underway to return them?

Baghdasaryan says that various Artsakh Defense Ministry reps have confirmed the presence of armed combatants from Turkey fighting alongside Azerbaijani soldiers.

“They suffered the most losses and they started the panicked retreat,” says Baghdasaryan.

So to all Azeri users, stop changing the page. Ninetoyadome (talk) 16:51, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Moving page

There is still no reliable evidence that the town was captured, so until then the article should be returned to its previous name. Kostja (talk) 11:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Artsakh Army denied Aliyev's claims and issued a video from October 4: "As to the Azerbaijan’s allegations about taking control of Mataghis, Defense Army reported that it is false. The footage shows the destruction of the vehicles of the adversary on the road taking to Mataghis." [1]. Vaan23 (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BBC also questions Aliyev's claims: [2]. Vaan23 (talk) 12:58, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. The renaming was done without discussion. The village is still known for its old name Mataghis/Madaghis/Madagiz. Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 07:48, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ymblanter, may we know your opinion? Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 08:01, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not here to provide opinions, I am here to stop disruption and to enforce consensus. The best way to proceed is to start a RM.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose it was officially renamed. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 09:07, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't renamed even by Azerbaijan [3], so you're mistaken. Vaan23 (talk) 10:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was officially renamed today. [4] — CuriousGolden (talk·contrib) 08:59, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~It looks like Ymblanter and Solavirum are running ahead dictator Aliyev, distorting facts.~~ I consider that page moving by Solavirum and page protection by Ymblanter were biased and unjustified. Vaan23 (talk) 09:21, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear user with 68 edits, the best thing you can do now is to apologize.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaan23: please do not pretend you have not seen this and the message at your talk page. My next step will be WP:ANI, unless you apologize and retract this accusation.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:02, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vaan23, WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH, WP:CIVIL, WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:44, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Madagiz vs Suqovusan

I haven't seen anything that area was called Suqovusan before. Anyone has any idea what that place was called Soviet times and after? @Vaan23:, pinging you, let's see if anyone finds something. Beshogur (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The area wasn't called Suqovusan before. In Soviet times [5], after [6] and now [7] it is called Mataghis. Vaan23 (talk) 10:05, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I am saying it is formerly called Madagiz. Considering it is de jure Azerbaijan, and the control over area is still uncertain, it means the name was in former use. Beshogur (talk) 10:41, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The naming should show that the control is uncertain. Especially, because the international media still calls it Madagiz [8][9] and Vzglyad claims that "the [Azerbaijani] infantry, having entered Madagis, did not even try to fix there - and the next day they just left it" [10]. Vaan23 (talk) 13:33, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I agree about keeping the commonname, but I think it should be called formerly because if it is been renamed. Beshogur (talk) 14:58, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Until it’s official, why make preemptive changes? You’ve said yourself that the control is uncertain. Syd Highwind (talk) 05:44, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is located inside Azerbaijan. Is the turth so hard to swallow? It's been over 13 days, there are numerous footage coming from the village, even France24 visited it. It's not uncertain anymore. Beshogur (talk) 09:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill:, what do you think about the current state of the article? Beshogur (talk) 09:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, I think that the English common name trumps other concerns; glancing at Google Scholar and an internet search, I think that Madagiz is likely still the most appropriate name. International media are likely to only start using a different name once fighting has stopped. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill:, the problem is, Madagiz is the former name in Azerbaijani, Suqovusan is its new official name, so what's the reason to remove it from the infobox? Also Khirurgs is claiming that this place is still under Armenian occupation. Beshogur (talk) 17:55, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, I think it's fine to include in the infobox, similar to how Ayn al-Arab is listed at Kobani. Regarding the last point, I can't seem to find any such claim from Khirurgs, whether on this page or in recent edit summaries. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill:, I stated that I am not against the name Madagiz, as you said, Kobani example is good. He is removing the edit which states that Azerbaijan has taken control of the village into under control of NKR. I know YT is not RS but this can be easily verified. Beshogur (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beshogur, ah I see, I was going off of the edit summaries alone. I think that the TASS source is sufficient for an attributed claim in the article body and lead. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:29, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill:, the problem is, western media will not report these events, because it is too irrelevant. Perhaps reuters may report of seizings of bigger towns. Similar to the Turkish offensives in Syria, I think that Azerbaijani reports should be considered reliable as well, because there are numerous footage. Beshogur (talk) 18:34, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would err on the side of caution. I think that readers will be sufficiently informed with an attributed claim. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:38, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What abou the " "officially", it's like disputing the area being soil of Azerbaijan. Beshogur (talk) 19:47, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, when I wrote that I wasn't really sure how to handle the doubly-contested status. I guess that given that under international law the territory is part of Azerbaijan, officially doesn't need scare quotes. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 19:53, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal is, official name=Suqovuşan, native name=Madagiz. For the text: Madagiz (Azerbaijani/Armenian name), officially Suqovushan (Azerbaijani name), is a village .. Thoughts? Beshogur (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that native_name is unnecessary, since in practice that will just display Madagiz on two different lines without any clarifying text. I think that the lead text suggestion is ok, although we should probably include the Armenian-script spelling in the first parenthetical as well. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 20:05, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Huh, the page is called Suqovusan. What's wrong? And the village isn't in NKR control, even France24 visited it. Beshogur (talk) 23:29, 20 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong is that "Suqovushan" is a new name, and virtually all media still call it "Madaghis" or some variant of that. The page is only "called Suqovushan" because it was moved without consensus and it's now locked under that name. But there was no move request, and we both know that any such move request would fail. Khirurg (talk) 02:28, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please respect WP:COMMONNAME. You’ve edited in this project long enough to know what that is. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:46, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Khirurg:, @Étienne Dolet:, both of you, are you aware that I didn't edited anything? I restored removed content, + read the other threads. Also the page wasn't moved by me at the first place. Beshogur (talk) 10:13, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also I am not against the commonname. It's also possible to use: "Madagiz, offically called Suqovushan", but it is really absurd to remove the official name, considering it is in Azerbaijan. Beshogur (talk) 09:52, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should rename Vardenis to Basarkeçər. It might be under Armenian control, but you know, we're taking sides here, right? Yeah, no, both of these request sound absurd. Suqovuşan it is. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 15:01, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant wikipedia policy is WP:COMMONNAME. You don't get to choose which policies apply. Madagiz is the commonly used name, until that changes, it should st as is. Khirurg (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox clearly states official name, don't you see it? Also that aside, why do you change the control of the town status? Beshogur (talk) 16:31, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You are either refusing to, or unable to, understand WP:COMMONNAME. Khirurg (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request to move the page, restoring the original name, and lock until the conflict is over.

Users of either Azerbaijani or Turkish descent and editing with bias, which calls the integrity of contributions made by either party onto this article. Therefore I request the article be moved and the original name restored, since a move request wasn’t made to change the name from Madagiz in the first place, and locked from editing until the conflict is over and the name change is fully acknowledged. Syd Highwind (talk) 06:04, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I object, the village is independently confirmed to be under Azerbaijani control; it is undisputedly Suqovuşan. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 14:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree per WP:COMMONNAME. AntonSamuel (talk) 16:40, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving back to Madagiz, a Google News search returns 2 results for "Suqovusan", 97 for "Suqovuşan", and 22,400 for "Madagiz". The lead should mention that Azerbaidjan has captured and renamed the village, although usage of terms like "official" should probably wait until the dust settles on the conflict and/or RS clearly refer to it as such. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and swapped the page back given the clear English common name. This can be revisited if English-language coverage adopts the new name. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, it is blindingly obvious that "Madagiz" is still the overwhelmingly common name in English usage. Thank you for your intervention, it was needed. Khirurg (talk) 19:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nope!. 1. Suqovuşan is goverrned by Azerbaijan, 2. Suqovuşan is under the control of Azerbaijan, 3. Suqovuşan's native Azeri people came to the their own town. No other name is used.88.227.194.64 (talk) 11:28, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Suqovuşan

The current name of the village seems to be Suqovuşan, on BBC. @Rosguill Google News search returns 2 results for "Suqovusan", 97 for "Suqovuşan", and 22,400 for "Madagiz". I did the search with the filter for last year on Google News and got 14 for "Madagiz", 73 for "Suqovuşan", 8 for Sugovuşan" and 2 for "Sugovusan". Geysirhead (talk) 18:38, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why still Madagiz??

The name of article needs immediate changes. Its official and common name is Sugovushan not Madagiz. Əhməd Qurbanov (talk) 08:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]