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Talk:Tomás O'Crohan

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Article needs major cleanup

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The tone of this article is inappropriate. It reads like a fanpage for the author, if such a thing were imaginable. It also contains no inline references. The object of this article is not to advertise the quality of Ó Criomhthain's work to readers who haven't read it yet, but to provide verifiable information about him and his work. The reason for this is that the quality of his work is not seriously disputed. We badly need secondary literature about him to back up what is said in this article, because right now it is in violation of WP:NPOV in the most obvious way. I will do what I can, but my Irish is limited. Hopefully better Irish speakers than I will come forward. Lexo (talk) 23:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that this article has never been seriously revised by anyone since it was first drafted in 2005. For an acknowledged classic of Irish-language literature, that's pretty scandalous, especially given the amateurish quality of the initial draft, which had nothing going for it except enthusiasm. I do not like to be in a position where the best I can do to improve an article is complain about it, but for now it's all I can do. In the meantime, I urge Irish speakers to provide, at the very least, inline citations for statements made about the book's content. Lexo (talk) 00:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move?

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Without better sourcing it's unclear that the subject is better known in English sources by the proposed name. Cúchullain t/c 21:46, 7 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tomas O'Crohan → Tomás Ó Criomhthain –

  • Cannot move it myself because of an existing page name. The article is about a native Irish-speaking writer who wrote in the Irish language, who spoke very little English, whose name was Tomás Ó Criomhthain. An English Wikipedia editor recently moved the article to rename it, but this was an error. This requested rename is to correct that error and to revert the article to its original, seven-year-old title. --Relisted Tyrol5 [Talk] 02:42, 10 January 2013 (UTC) — O'Dea (talk) 16:48, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The previous mover wrote in the move log: "Most common name in English language sources – 2020 in Google Books compared to 438 for "Tomás Ó Criomhthain". This move needs a discussion. EdJohnston (talk) 20:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree this should have been discussed before it was moved, though I do not necessarily disagree with the current title. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles#Naming people, an Irish name should be used only if "it enjoys widespread usage among English speakers". If not, the English name should be used even if the person himself only spoke Irish and only used the Irish version of his name. The canonical example is Geoffrey Keating, whose article is NOT (and should not be) at Seathrún Céitinn. If it's true that O'Crohan is best known as O'Crohan in English, then that's the name we should use, regardless of what he called himself. However, I am suspicious of the current spelling "Tomas O'Crohan". I suspect that if he is best known by the English version of his name, then what he's best known by is actually "Thomas O'Crohan" with an "h" in "Thomas". Note that even if the article name is the English name, the words bolded in the opening sentence should still be the Irish name, following our usual practice for people with non-English names (e.g. Ovid, whose opening sentence begins Publius Ovidius Naso) Angr (talk) 15:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - restore. A lot of those Google hits are in old books, generalist passing mentions, or in brackets behind the Irish name. Also as an item of procedure I believe that a redirect lock (in this case an inadvertent/automatic redirect lock, not gaming) should not prevent normal WP:BRD and make restore RMs start from the wrong end. This should explicit as a guideline/policy on WP:RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. O'Crohan is most commonly known as such in English. — Jon C.ॐ 09:02, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that were proven to be the case, some of the sources with that surname still retain his first name: Irene Lucchitti The Islandman: The Hidden Life of Tomás O'Crohan 2009. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, although I agree with In ictu that this move should first have been reverted per WP:BRD, and if it closes as "no consensus", should return to the status quo ante. That said, Google Books searches show pretty strongly that "Tomas O'Crohan" predominates over both "Tomás Ó Criomhthain" and the fully anglicized "Thomas O'Crohan", even in recent works (post-1990). As for "Tomas" vs. "Tomás", the results in English-language books are difficult to discern. "Tomás" seems to be prevalent enough to go with, although either one is probably acceptable. Dohn joe (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name Confusion

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This Author is mentioned with several Names. In the Irish original of An t-Oileánach he calls himself Tomás Dhomhnaill, the English translation of this is transcribed as Tomás Donel. But in the same book the author is named Tomás O'Crohan whilst Wikipedia calls him Tomás Ó Criomhthain. I'm not sure what to make of it. Donel and Dhomhnaill or O'Crohan and Ó Criomhthain seems to be a transliteration from one language to another but how does Donel relate to O'Crohan or Dhomhnaill to Ó Criomhthain? I also posted this question in the Irish Wikipedia. Ogmios (talk) 12:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I’m all but certain the original poster won’t see this response, but for the sake of any later Wikipedians who happen upon this question, Dónal (modern spelling) was the name of his father, and in the Gaeltacht (still to this day so slightly less so) a patronymic or matronymic was typically used a nickname in the manner of a surname, more commonly than using a surname itself. Xx78900 (talk) 07:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that.
Even in Belfast, my town, I would hear “Jim Kelly, Tom’s boy”. It served to distinguish him from Jim Kelly, Paddy-Joe’s boy. 203.17.235.23 (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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Name in English?

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I'm a little weirded out seeing the Wikipedia article having his name as "Tomás O'Crohan" when he was known as "Tomás Ó Criomhthain" - in the Irish language - his entire life. A quick Google search will confirm same. So I see zero reason to anglicise it here.

I'm proposing we move this to Tomás Ó Criomhthain, whilst keeping Tomás O'Crohan as a redirect. Alison talk 23:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • My instinct would be to agree with you. Though I know that Wikipedia typically prefers the English language version of things, I'm not sure this is fitting for the names of people. More relevant is probably Wikipedia's preference for the most commonly used name, which to be honest I don't think there is a major distinction between which is in wider use. I would imagine that given that The Islandman, though significant, is rather niche in terms of who will find it of interest, I can't imagine anyone coming across the name in English absent the context of the Irish name, where I can readily imagine Gaeilgeoirí coming across the name in Irish absent the context of the English name. Xx78900 (talk) 10:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:UE: If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). Khiikiat (talk) 12:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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