User talk:One Sweet Edit

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Mariah Carey

Just a quick note on your edits regarding how Carey occupied both #1 and #2 on the Hot 100: although you keep changing it so that Ashanti is the first artist to occupy both positions, the source in place clearly shows Carey as the only female solo artist. If you're gonna change it, please make sure you have a source. Thanks. SKS2K6 (talk) 21:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough. Incidentally, Ashanti is the first FEMALE artist to occupy both positions, but was preceded by Elvis, the Beatles, and the Bee Gees.One Sweet Edit (talk) 23:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

""We Belong Together" held the Hot 100's number-one position for fourteen weeks (Carey's longest run at the top as a solo lead artist), and "Shake It Off" made Carey the eighth artist to occupy the Hot 100's top two positions simultaneously, and just the second female singer following Ashanti."

This statement is faulty. Carey is the first female artist in her own right to occupy both positions. Ashanti is not included in this category simply because one of the songs she is only a featured artist, it is not technically her song it's Fat Joe's. That is why Billboard does not credit her in the 6 artist to accomplish this feat. Based on that info, the info you put on Mariah's page is actually out of context. Remember that this is about a lead artist not a featured artist. You should read the article

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/search/google/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001053461 PhoenixPrince (talk) 00:00, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking at page 44 of Joel Whitburn's "Top Pop Singles 1955-2006" right now, and under Ashanti's section is "Always on Time," credited to Ja Rule feat. Ashanti, listed as a #1 hit for Ashanti. This is in accordance with official Billboard's methodology. Their criteria is "listed by name on the label" vs. "not specifically listed."

It's the same reason that Mariah Carey's career total of Top 40 singles is 34 instead of 33 (or was, as of 2006)-- because Carey's list includes "U Make Me Wanna" by Jadakiss feat. Mariah Carey.

Naturally, all fans make distinctions about lead singers and supplementary performers. But for its own recordkeeping, Billboard does not.One Sweet Edit (talk) 19:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Joel Whitburn no longer works for billboard and they have revised their methodologies since, this is part of the reason why Elvis no longer holds 18 # 1 singles he holds 17, but Whitburn still credits him with 18. However it doesn't matter what Whitburn credits an artist with anymore because he no longer works there and does not make the methodologies. please read the link. The information in the page should be concurrent with the source, which is straight from the Billboard website and it says something different. It states only 6 artists have accomplished this feat period. Not 8 and not Ashanti. That is the most recent source and the most recent methodology. PhoenixPrince (talk) 00:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're mistaken, and here's a different Fred Bronson "Chart Beat Chat" column from 2006 that illustrates why:

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/chart_beat/bonus_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003285302

Note that Bronson correctly cites featured artists Ludacris, Lil Jon and Pharrell as having "Hot 100 chart-toppers" according to current Billboard methodology:

Ludacris' "Money Maker" featuring Pharrell (DTP/Def Jam) is the third chart-topper for the lead rapper on the Hot 100 and the second for Pharrell. In December 2003, Ludacris spent one week in pole position with "Stand Up," a song that featured Shawna. Two months later, Ludacris was No. 1 again as a featured artist, along with Lil Jon, on Usher's "Yeah!" That single resided in the penthouse for 12 weeks. Pharrell's previous Hot 100 chart-topper was "Drop It Like It's Hot," on which he was featured with lead artist Snoop Dogg.

A distinction between "solo" and "featured" artists is in the text, which I hope will satisfy you. I agree that some of these technicalities are pretty finely cut.

Incidentally, Whitburn continues to have the same professional relationship with Billboard; his books continue to appear under the "Billboard Books" imprint, and his "Top Pop Singles" guides (including the latest one) feature the Billboard logo prominently on the cover.One Sweet Edit (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's doesn't really prove anything, Billboard credits him on those songs yes, but if you check out his hot 100 chart history, they only credit him with 2 number one singles, "Moneymaker" and "Stand Up" not with the songs he was featured on. http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.vnuArtistId=407476&model.vnuAlbumId=794965 and it's just the same with Ashanti's chart history, neither songs she is supposedly credited with appear on her chart history http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/retrieve_chart_history.do?model.vnuArtistId=447037&model.vnuAlbumId=1082254

However all the other artist featured in the article about occupying the number 1 and number 2 spots, the songs that have achieved this feat are credited in their chart history exemplifying the obvious difference between what Ashanti has done and what the Beatles, Mariah, the Bee Gee's, Outkast, etc have done. Their is a difference and Billboard obviously recognizes the difference. As far as Joel Whitburn, whatever relationship he maintains with Billboard, he still does not define their methodology. I don't think I need to cite the discrepancy over Elvis's 17 number one hits again do I? PhoenixPrince (talk) 22:43, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The link I gave you is from Fred Bronson, whose entire column is about chart feats, chart controversies and debates over Billboard stats. He's currently the public face of the magazine's methodologies. Whereas the two chart histories you list above are only that-- a list of songs for which Ludacris and Ashanti are credited as the lead artist. They are NOT full compilations of the two artists' number one songs, with any unlisted songs not "counting." They-- and all artists-- do receive official Billboard credit for their "featured" work. Even Mariah Carey's chart totals have been increased by this policy. The plethora of guest appearances on rap singles has obliged Billboard to decide on a system, and that's what they've done. They explicitly award featured singers identical credit for chart positions as the lead singers. Billboard "recognizes the difference" in the same way that they recognize the difference between male and female singers, or solo singers and groups. That's all. That recognition is included in the text of the Carey Wiki article, which is more generous than even Billboard has been on various occasions.

You keep saying that Joel Whitburn doesn't decide the magazine's methodology, but I'm unclear as to the point of this. Whitburn has nothing to do with it, pro or con. Likewise the Elvis controversy, which involved a retroactive stripping away of chart status. This is not the case with "featured" artists; quite the opposite.One Sweet Edit (talk) 04:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I keep talking about Joel Whitburn because that is what you are using as your main source. Second of all what you just said proved my point. What it says on Mariah Carey's page and on all the Billboard links I posted is about solo artists point blank. That's it and that's all that belongs. Ashanti's feat is irrelevant to the Mariah Carey page because it has nothing to do with the topic and the proof is in both of the BILLBOARD articles that have been posted as a source. Also if you want to mention that Ashanti has achieved the feat as a featured artist, that's a side note and does not go first on Mariah Carey's accomplsihment page. The way it was written is pretty diplomatic and it still credits Ashanti with her accomplishment but it distinguishes, in the way that billboard has, what Mariah and Ashanti have accomplished. If you have any further discrepancies we can contact an administrator to solve this. PhoenixPrince (talk) 06:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Joel Whitburn's books say "BILLBOARD" right on the front covers. They are endorsed by the magazine. The idea that Whitburn left Billboardland to oversee his unique, alternate version of chart history is mistaken.

And as Whitburn's post-1958 numbers and statistics are in IDENTICAL ACCORD with Billboard's own, as evidenced by the writings of BILLBOARD'S OFFICIAL CHART REPORTER Fred Bronson, your interpretation of what Billboard's methodology should deemphasize is your own. Just because Mariah Carey fans have traditionally taken a more intense interest in her career numbers than most musicians' fans does not supersede the fact that Billboard completely and officially recognizes Ashanti (and 50 Cent, and Akon) as having held the #1 and #2 positions in the same week, even in a "subsidiary" role. You are drawing a distinction that Billboard does not, except anecdotally (i.e. the way they'll refer to Elvis Presley's or the Beatles' record as the leading singer/group.) I again refer you to the Bronson column above, which explicitly credits various featured singers as having topped the charts.

Here is another Fred Bronson "Chart Beat Chat" column, from March 8 of this year:

http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/search/google/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003721353 And here's the part of it that concerns you; note how Bronson discusses the official chart history of Young Jeezy: "The resulting explosion has carried "Love in This Club" (LaFace) by Usher featuring Young Jeezy from 51-1 on The Billboard Hot 100. That's the third biggest jump to No. 1 in the almost 50-year history of the chart.... "Love in This Club" is the eighth No. 1 for Usher and the fastest-rising song of his career.... "Club" is the first No. 1 for Young Jeezy. His highest-ranked song on the Hot 100 until this week was "Soul Survivor," a No. 4 hit in 2005 that featured Akon."

I've added the earlier Bronson column as a reference. You are naturally free to contact whoever you wish, if you want to pursue your interpretation further.One Sweet Edit (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Umm...I think this has become an edit war. Could you guys either go to WP:3 and get a third opinion or resolve it without pretty much breaking WP:3RR? Thanks. SKS2K6 (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's still a little recent for WP:3, although if anyone else wants to jump there now, that's okay. In the meantime, I've put in a request for advice to the Wikipedia editor who's the primary caretaker for the Billboard statistical page.One Sweet Edit (talk) 17:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One more link, which would seem to obviate further debate: http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-retail-stores-not/4658871-1.html

Chart Beat

By Fred Bronson

Publication: Billboard

Date: Saturday, April 20 2002

'FOOLISH' BEAT: As if she hadn't made enough chart history already, Ashanti continues to build her resume. This issue, she becomes the first female artist to own the top two positions on The Billboard Hot 100. With the decline of "Ain't It Funny" (Epic) by Jennifer Lopez Featuring Ja Rule to No. 3, the only question was which Ashanti single would assume pole position.

"What's Luv?" (Terror Squad/Atlantic) by Fat Joe with Ashanti as featured artist stands pat at No. 2, so it's "Foolish" (Murder Inc./Def Jam) that leapfrogs to the top, giving Ashanti that lock on Nos. 1 and 2. While she is the first woman to accomplish this, she is the fifth act in the rock era to do so. The others are the Beatles (who occupied the top five in the week of April 4, 1964), Bee Gees, Puff Daddy, and Ja Rule, who was No. 1 and No. 2 only a few weeks ago with "Ain't It Funny" and his own "Always on Time," which features Ashanti.One Sweet Edit (talk) 18:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Guess you mean me? Got your message on my page. I'm not a Billboard historian or chart expert, however I can see both sides of this coin. Personally speaking I would count both the lead and featured artist(s) for chart achievements, therefore I would give Ashanti the credit as the first woman to occupy numbers 1 and 2 simultaneously. I referenced the Fred Bronson article and note that he stated that Carey was the first female lead artist to do this - so he is obviously making a distinction. However, I don't think Bronson is discrediting Ashanti or ignoring it — he is simply writing about a chart occurrence. I believe that both Bronson and Whitburn credit "featured" artists with chart achievements as evidenced by their books and columns. I think it makes most sense to do this, as featured credits are not just dreamt up by Billboard, but rather negotiated by artist management and representatives and record labels... obviously some thought goes into whose name gets to appear. As far as this article is concerned, can't a distinction be made that Carey was the first female lead artist? I don't see anything out-of-line mentioning Ashanti or that she did it as a featured artist, as long as it doesn't make it sound like Ashanti's feat is somehow "less" important. - eo (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the user above me. They way I had it edited gave credit to both Ashanti and Mariah for the feat but also recognizing the respective differences between the feats. If you want to include more info about how Ashanti achieved this feat then add it on her page where it belongs because it does not belong on Mariah's, her page is about her period. I see that you didn't add the first artist to achieve this feat overall, if that info is not in there then neither should a wealth of info about Ashanti. That's my compromise. P.S. I'm not trying to start an edit war or be disrespectful. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this thouroughly with me. I hope we can reach a consensus. PhoenixPrince (talk) 20:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great Job, I like it! PhoenixPrince (talk) 23:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Best-Charting U.S. Artists up for deletion discussion

I noticed you voted in support of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Billboard_Hot_100_chart_achievements_and_milestones Can you vote and support my page in the List of best-charting U.S. music artists ? We chart statistics people need to band together. I don't know how to communicate with you directly other than via this method. Thanks.

Articles_for_deletion/List_of_best-charting_U.S._music_artists