User talk:Sphilbrick/Archive 50
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Administrator Orlady again
Time to close this for now. Some progress made, although maybe that's my optimism fooling me.
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She conducted a personal attack here[1] Pay attention to the words 'is indeed typical of the antics of some less mature Wikipedia contributors'. I templated[2] her for it, As you full well know its not the first time I've done that in recent days, and awarded the editor was the target of the Orlady's violation of WP:CIVIL with a barnstar[3]. Now she is accusing me[4] of using barnstars as part of a vendetta. Can't help to point out how that last link also fails WP:AGF....William 14:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I composed this about 5 hrs ago but was called away before posting. I stand by everything I say in Orlady's diffs -- in fact, one of them is in my own post below -- and leave it to my esteemed fellow editors to draw their own conclusions from them.] Hope you don't mind my butting in -- I went poking around after receiving one of WJE's barnstars. Somehow you've morphed me from EEng to EEG, but, hey, what's in a name? I'm not upset or worried by anything Orlady does with regard to me. A few months ago a spontaneous movement broke out to bring some serious quality control to DYK -- there were just too many silly, illiterate, and just plain wrong DYK items making it to the main page. I happened to be walking by at the moment, got drawn in, and I've been hanging around ever since. Unfortunately, a few editors' feathers are ruffled over this -- some of them had enjoyed racking up large numbers of submissions with little scrutiny. This [6] pretty much tells the story, and while you may think the reference to Dunning-Kruger harsh, a review of our prior interactions (at that nom and elswhere) will explain my frustration. Since then she seems to have an intellectual chip on her shoulder -- keeps trying to one-up me somehow, and while self-indicting efforts like that are tiresome they don't trouble me, though I do appreciate WJE's solicitousness. As to airgonation, it is indeed a fun word, and while opinions vary on what makes a good hook, at least some of us think that an unusual and intriguing word can help. It's very common practice to tinker with hooks at they go to prep and while in prep -- the DYK rules explicitly recognize this and nominators are expected to keep their eyes open. In this case, I knew I was going out on a limb but there are many eyes on the preps and I fully expected a discussion to ensue which either would or wouldn't end with the change staying. What I didn't expect was Orlady to portray my suggestion as a some kind of presumptuous intrusion. Like the diff I supplied earlier in this post, her statement at Talk:DYK, "It seems that User:EEng found it in a dictionary and thought it would be cute to add it to the hook in prep", tells the story pretty well -- she doesn't seem to realize that not everyone has to look in a dictionary for unusual and enlivening words, for example, and I think most people at DYK would be startled at the notion that a "cute" (whatever that means) hook is a bad thing. That airgonation cute-ifies the hook was not a justification for removing it, so I thought I'd put it back to attract further attention. I won't go into further details but even the person who subsequently removed it again, later later told me he'd thought better of that. But I didn't want to kick poor Orlady when she was already down. Anyway, thanks for the concern. EEng (talk) 21:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. I guess I will respond to one of Orlady's misrepresentations in her post above. I did not portray myself "as particularly well qualified not only to point out our faults but also to second-guess our actions" -- what I said is this:
So Orlady can fuss all she wants, but the proof is in the pulling. Almost nothing is pulled now, which suggests that attitudes toward accuracy and sourcing have indeed improved. If that makes DYK a less satisfying place for her to work, so be it. Since you mentioned me I thought I'd let you know my take on things, but otherwise as far as I'm concerned Orlady's actions speak for themselves and there's nothing more to discuss. You two go ahead and if you need me for something ping me. EEng (talk) 22:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
@Orlady, WilliamJE, and EEng:It is not uncommon that learning more about the back story completely changes one's view of an interaction. However, in this case, while the back story helped explain some of the actions, it did not change my initial reactions. I've known about complaints (re lack of adequate vetting) at DYK for years. It sounds like EEng was responding to those concerns. Many of the suggestions and changes seem warranted, so EEng deserves plaudits for stepping in and helping. I do have some concerns, as already expressed, about the types of changes proposed in final prep as opposed to earlier stages in the process. Final prep is the last chance to catch outright errors, and catching them at the last minute is better than not catching them. Similar thoughts re word tweaks, which improve clarity, but do not materially change the hook.
However, while the use of an obscure word may well prove to be a good hook, the word should already be in the article, and the discussion should be deleted with at an earlier point in the process, not in final prep. Even such a late proposal would merely be an annoyance, but the real problem was the attempt to re-insert it after it was properly removed. If I were working there at the time, and saw the edit summary hee hee, sounds like a war crime, I'd also wonder about the maturity level (even if a temporary lapse) of the editor. Orlady's response, while strong, was measured, and did not constitute a personal attack. Then William steps in, seeing what appears to be a personal attack, and tries to help. William surely you know about Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars. I use templates regularly, and find them very useful, but using a template in a situation like this is often viewed as insulting. For a newish editor, who might not yet know the community mores, it might be appropriate. For someone like Orlady, not because she is an admin, but because she is experienced, certainly knows the general concepts embodied in the template. It is conceivable that even an experienced person might say something that is perceived as a pa even if not intended. I'm sure I'm guilty of that, but the proper response is an explanation of the specific situation, not a standard template. I can't read her state of mind, but if she was miffed over the edit war, this didn't help. Then you gave EEng a barnstar. However, it was not the usual use of a barnstar, to thank someone for doing especially good work, it was really a slap at Orlady. You may have intended it for EEng, but that isn't how it was perceived. I think Orlady was quite measured to simply point out that the developers of Wikilove would be chagrined to find their creation used to take a shot at someone (even if that is not what you intended). William I hope you saw that I supported you in the last incident you brought to me—however, while I think your heart is in the right place trying to defend what you thought was an unfair reaction to EEng and to you, I'm not with you this time.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:28, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
Reply to SPI've been (and still are) busy with an ebook I'll soon be publishing. (At the moment I have five for sale at Amazon) So I haven't had the chance to reply till now. A few things
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Totally pointless, but...
This is my new favorite non-conflicting edit conflict. I'm trying to see if mediawiki reveals millisecond edit timing to see how close we came to conflicting. :) Protonk (talk) 13:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Protonk: The funny thing is...I got an edit conflict when I went to correct a spelling error. I was contemplating writing a highly indignant post somewhere about getting an edit conflict with oneself. I didn't consider for one second that it might be an actual edit conflict. Glad I didn't write it. Yeah, let's ask Media Wiki to change their reporting - this rounding off to whole seconds is very unprofessional.:)
- As an aside, after reading that prose, I became concerned when I saw the editor had over a hundred edits, and decided, for the sake of the encyclopedia, that I need to check any edits to article space. Luckily none.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Their talk page is/was pretty bizarre. Protonk (talk) 13:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Exactly. I know we have a policy against pre-emptive blocks, and I support it, but if I were looking for an argument to change that policy, this would be it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:42, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Their talk page is/was pretty bizarre. Protonk (talk) 13:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your edit landed 9 seconds before mine. Although nobody knows the real timing difference. :) Protonk (talk) 13:49, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- The actual edit was nine seconds different. That's partly because I don't know how to do the edit conflict thing, so when I get one, I back out and try again. Plus, if I did know how to do the edit conflict thing, I don't know whether then completed edit would have the original time or the final time. That's without getting into the challenges of time ordering events. I didn't fully read the attachments, but I am aware that time ordering is not easy when considering events at two locations. Doesn't that problem go away if the event occurs at the same locations? Which condition seems like it applies to two editors trying to edit the same thread. (Unless we happen to be accessing two different servers? I'm not sure how that works.)--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:01, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Media Viewer RfC draft principles & findings
Hello. This is a courtesy note that the draft findings and principles in the Media Viewer RfC case have now been posted. The drafters of the proposed decision anticipate a final version of the PD will be posted after 11 August. You are welcome to give feedback on the workshop page. For the Committee, Lord Roem ~ (talk) 02:47, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Verification, creds, links
I have several books including two anthologies I edited, won two NJ State Arts Council Fellowships, one in prose and one in poetry, won the Kinereath Genseler Award for my book Panic (also a BOTYA finalist) with Alice James Books, and there are a ton of links to my work on line. A quick search pulls these up. If they need to be linked on the page, then that would be great, but calling the page into question is inappropriate as my creds are in line with many other poets' pages:
some Books and anthologies I have written or edited:
Collapsed list
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Interviews of me or by me: Radio or Videos of me or me interviewing other writers: Examples of poems online:
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How does this get resolved? Lmccullough (talk) 20:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- It gets resolved by an editor with enough interest in literature in general or poetry specifically, reviewing the case for notability, and if supported, making a case at the AfD. That editor will not be me, mainly because I have made commitments to other editors that I'm not delivering on.
- I see that we have a Wikipedia:WikiProject Poetry, I was going to suggest you try there, but I see you already have.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
A Request Edit
I was wondering if you could take a look at some content I put together a few weeks ago here on the McKinsey & Company page. It's actually a bit long, given that many of the books in the proposed draft have their own articles, but some of the books have been subjected to harsh criticisms that I wanted to make sure not to omit to avoid COI problems. I've asked user:Edge3 and User:Cullen328, but they both seem to be busy. CorporateM (Talk) 18:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'll try, but I'm swamped. Promised to write an article I'm working on, have some Arbcom work to do, the CSD backlog is stubbornly high, the OTRS backlog is scary and am depressed over the growth of the Request Edit backlog. Maybe this evening.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- I looked, but it looks to me like it requires some discussion. Will try to put some thoughts together over the weekend.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- @CorporateM: I added some comments to the talk page. Some may be strong, but that's how I feel.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:56, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- No problem. I looked through your notes, checked the sources and I think addressed your feedback (if not let me know). CorporateM (Talk) 15:35, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting up with me and all your help on that! Did you want to keep working on the other sections or are you all teetered out for now? I know these reviews can be a lot of work and for a large/complex article like this it is too much for any one editor to do. CorporateM (Talk) 14:12, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I need a bit of a break. If no one else steps up, ping me at the end of the week and I'll do some more. I site I've linked to probably a thousand times reorganized their site, so I'm manually fixing the links. On a related topic, I'm discouraged about the growth in Request edits again. I thought I found the perfect solution for one, which was medical related and asked here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Edit_request_needs_some_knowledgeable_help but it isn't going well. I've handled a couple, but some are complicated.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:26, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- That looks like an open and shut case to me; it could be closed out at this point as declined. It is almost never acceptable to link to someone's personal website in a citation, especially if they are not the subject of the article. CorporateM (Talk) 22:59, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- I need a bit of a break. If no one else steps up, ping me at the end of the week and I'll do some more. I site I've linked to probably a thousand times reorganized their site, so I'm manually fixing the links. On a related topic, I'm discouraged about the growth in Request edits again. I thought I found the perfect solution for one, which was medical related and asked here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Edit_request_needs_some_knowledgeable_help but it isn't going well. I've handled a couple, but some are complicated.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:26, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for putting up with me and all your help on that! Did you want to keep working on the other sections or are you all teetered out for now? I know these reviews can be a lot of work and for a large/complex article like this it is too much for any one editor to do. CorporateM (Talk) 14:12, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Invitation to WikiProject TAFI
Hello, Sphilbrick. You're invited to join WikiProject Today's articles for improvement. Feel free to nominate an article for improvement at the project's Nominated articles page. Also feel free to contribute to !voting for new weekly selections at the project's talk page. If interested in joining, please add your name to the list of members. NorthAmerica1000 16:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC) |
Can you be my mentor on Wikipedia
Please Venustar84 (talk) 16:57, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- I am honored that you would ask, but I'm sorry to say I must decline. I have signed up for more Wikipedia activities than I can handle, and it would be unfair to you. Have you tried Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user/Adoptee's Area--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:23, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi: I noticed that you recently deleted Redmi. The topic is actually notable per sources I added to the article, so requesting userfication to User:Northamerica1000/Redmi so I can work on the article to address promotional tone, improve it, etc. Thank you for your consideration. NorthAmerica1000 21:31, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Northamerica1000:
Done--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:51, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the userfication. NorthAmerica1000 21:57, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks
Thank you for your comment on the AE. Could you please move it to the admin "result" section so it won't be missed? I'd appreciate that. SW3 5DL (talk) 18:40, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
DoneYou can see I don't spend much time at AE.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks. And hopefully this will be my last trip there. SW3 5DL (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
AE Clerk's note
Callanecc noted that you were asking for a one year block is I were to violate the ban again. He's pointed out here that the maximum block for a repeat would be one month. I don't know if you saw that. Don't know if he's waiting for you to state if you're okay with that before he closes. Thanks, SW3 5DL (talk) 20:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I didn't know about the max, I'm fine with that, my goal was to emphasize that while I can excuse a close call, I will be looking for a long block if repeated.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:01, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I didn't know about it, either. Might be a good idea to post your reply above over on AE so Callanecc will see it. Thanks again for your understanding of the situation. I really appreciated that. SW3 5DL (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, things are a bit hectic - I saw your earlier note when I was cleaning up a mess and thought I was posting there. Just noticed my error and made an edit there just about the time you posted here. Let me know if you think more is needed.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Looks fine to me. I posted a note on Callanecc's talk page with a diff of your change so he knows and can close. Thanks for that. Much appreciated. SW3 5DL (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, things are a bit hectic - I saw your earlier note when I was cleaning up a mess and thought I was posting there. Just noticed my error and made an edit there just about the time you posted here. Let me know if you think more is needed.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- I didn't know about it, either. Might be a good idea to post your reply above over on AE so Callanecc will see it. Thanks again for your understanding of the situation. I really appreciated that. SW3 5DL (talk) 21:52, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
You missed one
[49] Regards, WCMemail 16:43, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
PS Will do.
- I think someone must have beat me to it.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:12, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- [50] Today hasn't been my best, guess I lost it for a while. Feel free to remove other comments I made, with the assurance it won't be repeated and it isn't normal. Time for the pub methinks. Regards, WCMemail 17:52, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Understandable. Wish I could join you at the pub.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:59, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- [50] Today hasn't been my best, guess I lost it for a while. Feel free to remove other comments I made, with the assurance it won't be repeated and it isn't normal. Time for the pub methinks. Regards, WCMemail 17:52, 9 August 2014 (UTC)