Talk:Minnesota/Archive 6

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Conflict between intro and FA summary

There is a conflict between the introduction and the FA summary in the last sentence of the first introductory paragraph, and the FA summary is inaccurate.

In the third week of November, during the FA push, the sentence read:

Its image as a primarily white, Scandinavian, and Lutheran state still has some truth, but it is changing, with substantial influxes of African, Asian, and Hispanic immigrants joining the descendants of European immigrants and Native American descendants of the original inhabitants.

On November 28 that sentence was changed [1] to start as follows:

While the state's residents have been primarily white, Northern European, and Lutheran, . . .

Note the (unintended) change in meaning. The sentence formerly addressed the image of Minnesotans (familiar to Minnesota residents and to anyone who listens to Garrison Keillor); it was changed to a factual statement that the state primarily consisted of Nordic Lutherans.

That made the sentence incorrect, as Lutherans are not a majority, nor even a plurality any more. Recently the sentence was changed to start:

While the state's residents have been primarily white and Northern European, . . .

The FA summary however has the incorrect language, which was in the article in December:

While the state's residents have been primarily white, Northern European, and Lutheran, . . .

Wikipedia:Today's_featured_article/requests#Minnesota

Either the sentence in the article should be reverted to the version in place before 28 November (which I prefer), and the FA summary should be changed to conform to either that version or the current version of the intro. As I believe I wrote the original version I’ll stay out of the decision. It's not a major point but should be corrected. Kablammo 03:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry - change back. –Outriggr § 06:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I think my concern was with "it is changing". In this sentence, "it" is, strictly speaking, referring to the "image", but surely we are talking about the racial makeup now, not the "image"—so there seems to be an unintended subject shift. Should it be "but Minnesota is changing"? That's better, but I still think some kind of rewording of the sentence is needed, because I find the clause ", but xx is changing," awkward. Not criticizing anyone's writing! I just wanted to let you know the reason I changed it (during a requested copy review). –Outriggr § 06:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I see your point (depends on the meaning of "it", to paraphrase a recent president). What I was trying to do was preserve the substance of prior content (which had an overly-long laundry list of ethnicities), acknowledge the accuracy of the image of Minnesotans as relatively homogenous, but note that diversity is increasing. Kablammo 15:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I have revised the sentence in the intro, and in the FA summary, to conform. Kablammo 20:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

IPA

Should the IPA pronunciation and audio file stay or go on this page? -Ravedave 17:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I like it because it illustrates a dialect that is somewhat unique--Appraiser 18:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It could be helpful to some readers; I see no reason not to include it since it's available. Jonathunder 22:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ugh... I really don't like the idea of adding audio files and IPA to articles with perfectly intuitive pronunciation. Like all types of translations of terms it tends to lead to pronunciationcruft. Eventually you'll have people asking why don't have pronunciations in British or Australian English. At worst it'll be like at Hong Kong, where the pronunciation has a separate article... And I hope you realize that the speaker is not from Minnesota, but California. She's very good at recording these kind of files, but the dialect is to the best of my knowledge fairly standard California English.

Peter ^Isotalo 07:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Perfectly intuitive to anyone who's already heard it pronounced, yes. But anyone who has never heard the word pronounced has no way of knowing how it sounds unless we provide an IPA transcription and audio file. —Angr 10:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

A Minnesotan (Davumaya) recorded a new audio file, but unfortunately, it's somewhat problematic. Even if I believe we should avoid pronunciation files for English place names that have a very intuitive pronunciation, even for non-native speakers, Dvortygirl's recording was much better. The file that Davumaya recorded has been needlessly compressed resulting in loss of quality and (I really hate to say this) you can tell that there is something slightly odd with his accent from just listening to the sound file; Davu is speaking Minnesotan American English with what sounds like a Chinese accent. I don't doubt that he's a native speaker, but an obvious Chinese-American pronunciation can in this context hardly be helpful either for native or non-native speakers. To me it seems like the equivalent of, say, having a member of any of the Native American tribes recording how Californians pronounce "California".

Overall, I'm very skeptical to the idea that the pronunciation of any given place has to be recorded by someone native of that particular place. It's not like the names of geographical entities in a certain language are "less correct" if pronounced in another dialect. It's far more important that the speaker adheres to the most common national standard, even if some regional variation is, of course, always acceptable. Do try to keep in mind that audio links are intended to give a basic understanding of the pronunciation; it's not supposed to be part of a precise phonological survey.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

In support of this position - move this argument abroad. We call a city in Bavaria "Munich;" the inhabitants refer to it as "Munchen. Nor do the inhabitants try to correct us! You can come up with dozens of similiar examples. Pronunciation goes out the window here.

There are some sounds in English that are simply unpronounceable in certain other languages and vice versa. An impression is all that can be conveyed. Student7 14:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Before I call Peter out for a particularly racist comment, you only know about my heritage because I've made it clear in my page that I am a Chinese-American. I doubt you would be looking or hearing for any kind of "strange accent" in the file if you didn't know this knowledge previously. And I've made this knowledge known in the many articles I've recorded but you are the first to challenge my English authenticity out of some unknown motivation. So I question your judgement on part of what? What if my talkpage said a Norwegian American, would it really matter to you of Swedish descent? And what is an "obvious Chinese-American pronunciation" then what is a Swedish-American one, if you could offer one for us? Peter, this is a very problematic statement you are making, you ought back it up with something. Davumaya 08:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Like I already said, Davu, I heard the accent from just listening to the soundfile. I checked your user page after this, and I don't recall ever seeing any information about you before. And the issue is not that you're Chinese-American, but that you're representing a very small minority of both Americans and Minnesotans and, at least to me, this is clearly audible in the sound file. It doesn't matter if your Danish, Zulu or Dutch, the point that it's very odd to replace a perfectly good pronunciation with one that is clearly divergent (and of lesser file quality as well). And accusing me of being racist makes as much sense as me accusing you of being male chauvinist for replacing a recording by a female.

Both Student7 and I argued against the idea that only very local dialects should be used to pronounce the name of places. It's far more important that the pronunciation in this case be in a reasonably standard American English.

Peter ^Isotalo 09:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Peter you've framed this argument in race since the beginning. I was born at Southdale Farview Hospital in Edina in 1984 and have grown up in the south suburbs for 23 years. My linguistic colleagues have reviewed your argument and the sound files and honestly they told me you are "crazy" because they know I embody the central midwestern accent. So craziness aside, I cannot accept you changing the discussion to feminism or anti-sexism. The only agreement I accept is firstly to extract your idea that the audio has some racial problem. From there can you make a point that sounds valid and not from a ethno-centric perspective. "you're representing a very small minority of both Americans and Minnesotans and, at least to me, this is clearly audible" This doesn't really matter in the full context of the argument and is indicative of some racial bias. Regional differences aside, this same argument could be used against Dvortygirl, she is from a specific area in the United States with different patterns and vocalizations. Should you have framed the argument simply as Dvortygirl's sound file being just fine and we have no need to change it, then your argument would be resonated. Instead, you've made it about race from the start. So basically you've digged a very large hole and I can't step away from that. This makes me question what response you will have should I also post my Wikispoken recording of this article which I have been working on. I've already recorded the Minneapolis, MN article, you haven't heard urban-dwellers criticizing me as a suburban representative. I'm trying to pretend you didn't just use the words Chinese-Americans or that maybe you're just very eager to jump to conclusions. I suppose I can understand this racial quality is a systemic problem of passionate Wikipedian editors such as yourself. Another solution would be to include both a female and male voice recording of Minnesota which is preferred by Wiktionary's sound project. This you have not suggested when my file is perfectly fine. Davumaya 23:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd be happy to also bring in all my Wikipedia buddies and friends, one a linguistic scholar, to help my point of view. I don't take well to being ganged up on Peter and you ought well be careful about what you say. Davumaya 20:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Fellow editors: I have taken no position on this issue. The reason for my recent edit is set forth below, Talk:Minnesota#Vandalism. I hope you folks assume good faith and come to an agreement on this point. Regards, Kablammo 13:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

FA-related inquiry

How is it that, in 3 well-developed introductory paragraphs, wherein a great many assertions regarding the awesomeness of MN are proffered, there isn't even a single solitary reference provided? Tomer^talk 00:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

As you may know, there has been a long-running discussion on the necessity of references in the introduction, with some adhering to the position that the intro or "lede" should contain references, and others stating they are not needed if the intro is a fair summary of an adequately-referenced main body. It should be clear what side of that debate the contributors to this article take. And if you care to read a truly effusive article on the "awesomeness of MN", you can go to the archives of Time Magazine.[2] Regards, Kablammo 01:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Heh 1973. Tomer, have any resources saying otherwise? I am always open to NPOV. -Ravedave 02:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Devil's advocate says, "Oh, I dunno, this comes to mind..." :-D Tomer^talk 06:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW, when Norman Rockwell was painting N. Mpls, I think he missed the Minnesota Mile... :-p Tomer^talk 06:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow. A google search indicates that the PDR MN has successfully purged all references to the sex slave industry in N. Mpls! Congrats! :-D Tomer^talk 06:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Man the St. Croix bridges! There may be a cheesehead on the loose. Kablammo 15:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Batten down the hatches, I'm comin' to getcha! [ya sure, you betcha] Tomer^talk 16:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Featured on may 11th

Raul654 has said that this article will be featured on May 11th, so lets try and make it FA+ by then as well as getting all the surrounding articles up to shape. -Ravedave 02:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

We should refresh the citations and check them for consistent format prior to then. Kablammo 14:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Have at it! I am trying to do another copy edit pass, while checking each and every wikilink. -Ravedave 00:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

audio link

So it's been a while since the audio link was placed on the word "Minnesota" and I still like the old way better. Anyone agree? -Ravedave 03:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the old way? Gopher backer 03:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This rev [3] is one way, and this rev is another way [4]. I think I like the 2nd one better. I think the new way is confusing, because it makes it look like the help/info links are about Minnesota, not an audio file. -Ravedave 04:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree that the (help info) links look a little out-of-place and seem to refer to the topic of Minnesota itself, rather than a link to the audio file. -- Meersan 04:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone actually misunderstood this or are we just assuming that? To me it seems pretty obvious that a loudspeaker icon followed by a link is about pronunciation, not info. Either way, just remember not to use any template that obscures the license information. To comply with copyright policies, the license must always be readily available, just with images.

Peter ^Isotalo 13:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as you've changed it back to Dvortygirl's pronunciation I'd like to ask why since I am a native speaker and she is actually pronuncing our state with a slight accent, likely Carolinas, it's not even midland English which is considered standard U.S. English. I vote to return it to my file. Davumaya 08:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I've explained my reasons in some detail in the thread above. You might get somewhere if you focused more on that instead of assuming that I'm racist. And if you really want to get into a discussion about brushing certain groups of people aside, then why not have a discussion about misogyny? Do you have any idea how rare pronunciation files recorded by women are on Wikipedia?

Peter ^Isotalo 17:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm just playing ball with your initial assertion of race. If you had simply suggested the file isn't acceptable quality, then a re-recording would have been done with no discussion needed. Wikipedia editors need to be careful about what types of arguments they use to build a case because I assure you race is not one of them. Davumaya 23:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Crime

TODO: [5] -Ravedave 05:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

By recent indices the state is 32nd in overall crime rate, 35th in violent crime, and 38th in murder rate [6], but has the second-lowest incarceration rate [7], and no death penalty. Now, to find a place for these data without making the article even larger . . . Kablammo 11:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I created a crime section back in the day, but I couldn't find any good overall stats except for the whole 'murderapolis' thing so I axed it, heres the diff showing the old section [8]. Also has no refs... -Ravedave 04:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Template

Does anyone know why the MN template doesn't look right here today? It looks OK elsewhere e.g. Bloomington, Minnesota.--Appraiser 14:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Hello. A day or two ago User:Zyxw changed some templates including Template:US_state_navigation_box, I would guess because some cities and states who have a lot of templates in the footer had a cacophony(sp?) of wide and narrow, collapsed and not. In the presence of two or more collapsible tables (in Minnesota there are two, in Bloomington one) the 'state' parameter collapses the box. Do you like it collapsed or open? -Susanlesch 15:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Oh. I didn't realize that it was collapsed. It's fine.--Appraiser 18:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict in Median Income

The median income measurement for Minnesota residents is listed as $55,914 (5th) in the intro, but $52,024 (11th) in the Economy section. Dunno which one is right. --Marumari 16:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Both the statistic in the infobox and the text in Economy are supported by the sources cited (and it is unlikely that the slight difference in years for those data would have that great an effect). I'll let whoever contributed these parts sort this out, or make it consistent. Nice catch. Kablammo 16:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The 2005 (survey) median household income data and the 2005 census bureau per capita income data both rank Minnesota 11th. Perhaps we could switch the measure to per capita, which may be a better measure of the state's economy. Kablammo 23:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Concern about the Dew Point

In the article it's stated that the dew point is between 6 and 70 degrees. However it doesn't say what that is. Here is where I'm confused... The reference states: "Dew point temperatures in most areas range from a high of 70° F in July to a low of 6 in January." [9] I actually think that the reference provided is incorrect, and here's why.

By definition, a dew point can never be higher than the actual air temperature.[10] That means when it gets to -60 in Tower, the Dew Point must also be -60 or lower. Even when it's -20 in the Twin Cities, the Dew point must also be -20 or lower. So that definition throws out the possibility of the 6 to 70 dewpoints being extremes, and IMO proves the "generally ranges" statement provided by the ref incorrect. That must mean that the 6 to 70 is an average dew point of some kind. I would buy that 6 degrees is an average dew point in the winter, however, this is no way that the average dew point is 70 anywhere in Minnesota during the summer. I found this graph that shows the record aveage high summer Dew Point in the Twin Cities is less than 64 degrees F. [11], and the average dew point in the Twin Cities during the summer is only 58. If there is a statement that makes the 70 degree dew point correct, I'd have to think it refers to a town in southern Minnesota over a short period of time, and it would be very close to a record.

So what I think needs to happen is:

a) The Dew Point statement should be clarified to explain what the values mean b) It should be changed, with better, more clarifying refs c) It should just be removed all together.

However in order to clarify what it means it may end up taking more space than is needed for this article.

Thoughts? Gopher backer 21:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• I think dew point is most meaningful on warm summer days. My inclination is to use [12] and just say, "the average early evening summertime dew point in the Twin Cities is 58^o" No need to explain it - just WL to dew point --Appraiser 22:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• Excellent idea, done. Gopher backer 01:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Minnesota - Suggest a biography

I stumbled on the Minnesota Portal last night and realized at least the selected biographies section had not been updated since it was created in December. So I added a fresh bio for Hubert Humphrey and created a suggestion page to update this monthly hopefully, and also an archive page to list all bios that have been featured. I copied this procedure from the Music Portal but if you think the suggestion process is too clunky or cumbersome, please feel free to change it. Also, feel free to suggest a new biography to be featured next month....and I will do my best to help keep it up to date. :) Cricket02 16:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I am just a bystander here, but I am disappointed that Wikipedia won't stop unregistered users from changing FA articles that are aiming towards a deadline. What is the problem here? A vandal struck by section today, requiring reversion of each. An unecessary nuisance, IMO. Student7 02:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is helpful to compare a recent version with a stable version from before a spate of vandalism. Oftentimes intermediate vandalism is overlooked because an editor or a bot only reverts the most recent instance, without correcting previous instances in the string. Example:[13]. I have reverted this back to two days ago, but in the process lost a recent edit on the pronunciation. As I am not sure what the consensus is on this fine point I will let those who have an interest in it restore their edits or discuss it further; my purpose in the reversion was only to restore wholesale deletions overlooked in the recent flurry of edits. Kablammo 13:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Article recording

I have been in the process of recording this article for the |Spoken wiki project. However with recent comments with racial overtones over my pronunciation of the word Minnesota I'd like to gauge the Minnesota editors' thoughts or opinions that the moment I post a spoken version of this article it will not be mercilessly ripped apart for being too Chinky sounding when in reality I have grown up all my life in Minnesota. Davumaya 20:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC) -- Oh here are links to current recordings I've done Minneapolis, Minnesota, Architecture and Urbanization Davumaya 20:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)