Talk:Israel–Hamas war

R

IDF

@Pachu Kannan: I think we should avoid using the IDF as a source here as much as possible; it is a demonstrably unreliable, non-independent and primary source. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Should we employ the same standard with Hamas? NesserWiki (talk) 22:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I'm against this on the basis that all militaries and paramilitaries have a track record of not telling the truth, and we still use their reports as sources. The IDF is not particularly special in this regard. NesserWiki (talk) 22:48, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Also for the record, anything any military or paramilitary says should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm just saying the IDF's claims should he held to the same standard and every other military/paramilitary's claims, no lower, no higher. NesserWiki (talk) 22:50, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

hamas.com is not used in the article. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas’s health ministry and media office is widely used. BilledMammal (talk) 08:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, so is the IDF, only when the information is provided from a secondary reliable source that establishes context and challenges propaganda; not straight from their websites. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

"Hamas health ministry" lol. Is that supposed to be an improvement over Hamas run? It's called the Gaza Health Ministry, has a wikilink and is considered a reliable source, unlike the IDF which is about as reliable as Hamas, in fact those two are peas in a pod and the only question is which member of either of them gets arrested for war crimes first. Selfstudier (talk) 10:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas’s health ministry. Like Israel’s health ministry, making it clear that it belongs to one of the belligerents. BilledMammal (talk) 10:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I can repeat myself just as well, Gaza Health Ministry. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I’ve edited my comment to make it clearer. BilledMammal (talk) 10:27, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Great, now just fix the POV and we're good to go. Selfstudier (talk) 10:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Saying "Gaza Health Ministry" makes it obvious that it is run by the government of Gaza, and the government of Gaza is obviously Hamas. NesserWiki (talk) 00:26, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Whenever someone says "Hamas Health Ministry" or "Hamas-run Health Ministry", it's usually a way of trying to dismiss the death toll in Gaza. NesserWiki (talk) 00:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Who says the Hamas Health Ministry is a reliable source? PaPiker (talk) 17:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia does, in several discussions already, because RS say it's reliable. Look for the discussions yourself. And fyi, its Gaza Health Ministry so take your POV elsewhere. Selfstudier (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The UN considers the data reliable, based on its past experience working with the government in Gaza in previous conflicts. I would guess that's why the it's reliable. 20WattSphere (talk) 23:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not entirely clear what you suggest. Plenty of RS use the information provided by IDF (e.g., "According to IDF Muhammed Deif was killed"). We should follow the RS and use it as any other primary source based on our policies and the use by other RS. Alaexis_¿question? 19:28, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree we should agree with WP:RS. My question would be when and where information can be stated without qualification, vs attributing it in text to IDF. It does seem the IDF has now made a number of very significant errors in public statements, such as the Israeli allegations against UNRWA. Information from the IDF could simply be qualified with "according to the IDF, ...", or "the IDF stated..." 20WattSphere (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

The IDF confirmed on Twitter that Mohammed Deif was "eliminated."

Here's a link to the IDF's post: https://x.com/IDF/status/1818926099432161437?t=_8HXR1i_i5eX3k1co_jVbw&s=19 NesserWiki (talk) 22:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Opening sentence

@Alaexis: Please avoid reinserting disputed material without engaging in an effort on the talk page to achieve consensus, whose burdens lies on the inserter. [1] Receiving a few rockets once a month does not mean that the war has been taking place in Israel. 7 October is one day out of a war that has been taking place for the past year. This is misleading. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much all sources that give a general overview of the conflict describe the events which took place in Israel extensively (Britannica, CNN, BBC). It's not "just" missiles, it's also the events of October 7 and the ongoing crisis in the north which has caused many tens of thousands of people to evacuate their homes. We are not saying that the damage has been the same, we're simply stating the fact that the war took place in Israel too. Alaexis_¿question? 19:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: The information in the provided sources are discussing the start of the war, and are not primarily discussing the war itself; they further focus on the maps of the Gaza Strip. October 7 was one day out of >300 days of war. The conflict in the north has a separate article at the Israel-Hezbollah conflict. This is a misleading equivalency that is not supported by RS. Again, the burden to achieve consensus lies on you, which there is clearly none for now. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Britannica article as last updated *today*. Here are articles from February 2024 (4 months into the war) that also describe the events that took place in Israel at length ([2], [3]). But I think that it's you who has to present sources that give so little weight to the events in Israel to justify your wording. Alaexis_¿question? 11:29, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Britannica is a lousy tertiary source of which there is no consensus over its reliability on WP. [4]The long-standing status quo was: "chiefly in the Gaza Strip," to which you added "and Israel". The burden of demonstrating verifiability and the onus of achieving consensus lies on you as the adder of the contested addition of "and Israel". Providing sources that discuss the day of 7 October 2023, 300 days ago, does not mean that the war is taking place in Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:TERTIARY, reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight and this is exactly how I'm using it. This article definitely wasn't written in 2009 and 2010 when EB "accepted a small number of content submissions from the general public". Of course, EB is just one of the sources I've used.

Will you provide any sources that give so little weight to the events in Israel as to justify your wording? The policy definitely doesn't say that anything that's been in the article for a couple of months and has no supporting sources can stay there forever.

An alternative is to remove the location from the first sentence altogether until the consensus is achieved. Alaexis_¿question? 13:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: I would like to remind you that editing in this article is subject to discretionary sanctions and your consistent edit warring of unsourced material into the article is extremely problematic. RS, and even Israel itself, are clear that this war is taking place in Gaza:

Associated Press: "sparked the war in Gaza"

Associated Press: "nearly 10 months of war in Gaza"

Reuters: "since the start of the war in Gaza"

CNN: "Gaza could see another 7 months of war, Israel says"

Foreign Affairs: "The Best Way to End Israel’s War in Gaza"

Waiting for your self-revert. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

There is a separate article for the attack on Israel, trying to stuff Israel in here just looks daft. Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

First of all, the scope of this article includes both the attack by Hamas and the Israeli response (and we have separate articles for each of these topics). Therefore, "in Israel and Gaza" is a natural wording we should use in the article per WP:LEDE. The previous wording with "chiefly" had no sources backing it up.

There are plenty of sources that refer to this conflict this way (all in 2024)

Reuters: Six months of war in Israel and Gaza In pictures: 100 days of war in Israel and Gaza

The Atlantic: War in Israel

BBC: One hundred days of the war in Gaza and Israel

Brookings Institution: War in Israel and Gaza

Committee to Protect Journalists: As we continue to monitor the war in Israel/Gaza.

However this is not the right way to assess the due weight. We need to look not at newspaper articles describing today's attack but rather at sources which describe the whole conflict and check what weight they give to the events in Israel, both in October 2023 and after that. Alaexis_¿question? 15:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

If I may offer my thoughts. The opening sentence, which, I think, is in the present perfect tense, talks about the war as a whole, from Oct. 7, 2023, to the present. The initial attack, which gets half a paragraph in the lead, took up one of 300-plus days; the rest took place and continues to take place in Gaza. The sentence should reflect that mathematical difference. As it stands, "in the Gaza Strip and Israel," that distinction has been erased and both are put on an equal temporal footing, which is objectively false.

Even if the war were over, and all were cast into the past tense, the argument would not change: the sentence should reflect the maths. GeoffreyA (talk) 17:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Uh huh, that's essentially what I object to, the putting on an equal footing (standard hasbara), when there is no valid comparison with the scale of the Israeli killing and destruction in Gaza. Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Our articles need to reflect the WEIGHT of mainstream independent RS narratives. Your view may or may not coincide with that view, but you will need to survey, evaluate, and present sourcing to establish NPOV for your proposal. A theory about quantitative comparison is not within our role as editors. SPECIFICO talk 19:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think @Makeandtoss has done a good job providing a sample of the RS that acknowledge the bulk of the fighting taking place in Gaza, and I also think we don't need to survey all 700+ sources on this page to show that it's the case when just a glance at them or a skim of the article will do. I agree @GeoffreyA that the current wording falsely equivocates the days of fighting in Israel with the last several months in Gaza. The original wording was good, the current wording should not stand, but there may be some compromise that's better than those two options. I think we can agree that the fighting between Israel and Hamas has chiefly taken place in Gaza after 7-8 October. I don't think it would be a bad idea to include a mention of the other confrontations in the war as @Alaexis has said, and that is one way we could justify including Israel in the opening sentence. However, I don't see a balanced way to include a mention of Israel without acknowledging the multilateral nature of the war. I propose the following wording, which may address some of the concerns raised in this thread. Maybe this will make no one happy, in which case we'll know it's a good compromise lol.

An armed conflict between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militant groups and their allies has been taking place chiefly in the Gaza Strip with other confrontations in the Gaza Envelope and southern Israel, at the Israel-Lebanon border and in the West Bank since October 2023.

Let's try it on for size.

P.S. this would all work a lot better if the page had a properly neutral and more descriptive title along the lines of Israel-Gaza war. This is a great example of how the Israel-Hamas framework is restricting and misleading. Unbandito (talk) 04:09, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Unbandito I agree with your arguments and support the proposed reading, which I think is an improvement over the previous and current one, reflecting the reality better. GeoffreyA (talk) 07:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The Israel-Hamas war is not exactly a multilateral war, but rather a war that has spilled over to cause other wars and conflicts such as the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) and 2024 Iran–Israel conflict, which are separate articles of their own; and also because Hamas is chiefly based in Gaza.

The opening paragraph should establish notability and be as general as possible so this would come as overdetailed there, as well as being a duplication as this is mentioned in the lede's fourth paragraph in detail. I very much appreciate the effort by @Unbandito: to find a middle ground, but compromises should be based on RS, and RS overwhelmingly agree that the Israel-Hamas war specifically is simply chiefly taking place in Gaza. I have reverted until we can further discuss this and form a consensus. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a good start. The wording should be based on the weight in RS that describe the conflict in its entirety, but finding such sources is not easy since the war is still going on.

One thing I'll change is "Gaza Envelope and southern Israel" -> "southern Israel". Gaza envelope is a part of southern Israel so logically "and" makes less sense and we don't need this level of detail in the lede. Alaexis_¿question? 09:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Can we update casualties of Israeli soldiers using this source in this article and Template:Israel–Hamas war infobox

@Makeandtoss:, @NesserWiki:, @BilledMammal:, @Selfstudier:, @Alaexis:, @GordonGlottal:,@GeoffreyA:, @Unbandito:, @XDanielx: and @EkoGraf: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra14024678 is the source. If anyone can help me by adding it, please add it. I am requesting this edit due to my busy real life. Pachu Kannan (talk) 06:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Source is in Hebrew, so if another editor could give it a go. According to Google Translate, "No less than 10,000 soldiers, who were killed or wounded during the long months of fighting in the Gaza Strip, are missing from the IDF today." GeoffreyA (talk) 10:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

We'd need to reconcile it with the number of wounded currently in the article (13k up to January), unfortunately there is no breakdown of that figure by military/civilian status. I'm not sure how to do it. Alaexis_¿question? 16:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Dubious

I have added the dubious tag to the recently-added "and Israel" part of the opening sentence, which misleadingly implies that the Gaza War specifically is also taking place in Israel, contrary to the majority of RS which were provided in the discussion above Talk:Israel-Hamas war#Opening sentence. Please do not remove this tag without first demonstrating verifiability per WP:BURDEN and consensus per WP:ONUS. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The war unmistakably takes place in part in Israel. The October 7th attack was very obviously in Israel and rockets launched by Hamas from Gaza as well as Hezbollah in the north hit Israel, as did Houthi and Iranian missiles at various times (and possibly Iranian missiles again in the near future). RM (Be my friend) 11:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This is not the article about the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, nor of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict (2023-present) or Houthi attacks or 2024 Iran–Israel conflict; which are all separate articles and the last three are distinct conflicts of their own. The scope of this article is clear in the title: the Israel-Hamas war; and Hamas is overwhelmingly based in Gaza, and so the war is chiefly taking place there. This is not my words, this is the words of RS as was demonstrated in the above discussion, including the words of the Israeli government itself: CNN: "War in Gaza could last another seven months, Israel warns." Relating to Hamas specifically; Israel is indeed at war, but it is not in war; it is waging a war on Gaza.Makeandtoss (talk) 11:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss The war is taking place in Israel. This is not dubious; Hamas has launched rockets into Israel proper, by definition that means it is also taking place in Israel no? Could you please find an RS specifically supporting your position that the war is not taking place in Israel? I don't support this tag at this time. Chuckstablers (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the tag after reviewing the reliable sources we have in the article. I've listed my reasons for doing so below per WP:DISPUTED

1.) Hezbollah is a party to the conflict per the infobox and they have continued to launch attacks into Israel proper. Lebanon has been identified as a theater of the war in the infobox, so we have attacks from one belligerent/ally of Hamas into Israel proper. Just 4 days ago we have this RS reporting on Hezbollah launching a drone attack into Northern Israel. This clearly identifies Israel as a location where the war is occurring.

2.) The war began with an attack into internationally recognized Israeli territory by Hamas and their allies.

3.) Hamas regularly launches rocket attacks into Israel. This has been widely reported on by reliable sources; I've found 2 in the article reporting on this within 30 seconds of searching.

4.) Per this source 5 months after October 7th over 135,000 Israeli citizens remained displaced from their homes in Israel due to the war. I'm not sure how you can argue that the war isn't taking place in Israel when multiple RS's have reported that over 100k Israeli civilians (who live in Israel) were internally displaced due to the war.

5.) Here's another source, Reuters this time, reporting on "Palestinian militants fire rockets into Israel, tanks advance into Gaza". It's obvious to me (and I hope to others) that if Hamas is firing rockets into Israel then it's fine to say that the war is taking place in Israel.

Per WP:DISPUTED the disputed content can be supported by reliable sources, is unbiased (it states the fact that the war has been fought on Israeli territory) and doesn't contain original research (again, the RS's directly report on acts of war on Israeli territory by the other side), so the tag can be removed.

In addition none of the common reasons for adding the tag per WP:DISPUTED have been met; it doesn't include implausable information (plenty of sources saying it), it's not hard to verify (plenty of recent sources on strikes by Hamas and their allies against Israel in Israeli territory), it's not highly detailed information subject to frequent changes, it's not referencing outdated sources (see Reuters from 4 days ago that I linked), it isn't ambiguously worded, and there's no RS's supporting divergent claims (no RS's claiming that the war actually hasn't taken place and isn't taking place in Israeli territory).

This also conflicts with the rest of the article. The infobox clearly identifies Israel as a theater of the war; "Location: Gaza Strip and Israel" for good reason (because the war is taking place in Israel and Gaza). Chuckstablers (talk) 16:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

So, would you say, from a maths point of view, which tends to clear the fog of language, that the war is—temporally, spatially, and destruction-wise—the same in Israel as in Gaza? That is, is the degree the same? If the degree is not the same, is that supported by the reading "taking place in Gaza and Israel," or does the latter grossly misrepresent reality? GeoffreyA (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No, the degree is not the same, but the current wording says nothing about the degree. It just says that it happened both in the Gaza Strip and in Israel which is an undeniable fact. The sources that describe the war in its entirety cover the events in Israel at length, see the discussion in Talk:Israel–Hamas_war#Opening_sentence. Alaexis_¿question? 19:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The events in Israel were covered at length; but what is happening now, as documented in the Events section, is mainly in Gaza and has been all these months. When one opens news covering this, it is largely, and daily, the WW2-like imagery from Gaza. To a lesser extent, the incidents are elsewhere. Understandably, the opening sentence is compressed, but there is a loss of information as it stands. The older reading was an accurate summing up. If Israel must be included, then so must the other places where confrontations have taken place, such as the Israel-Lebanon border and the West Bank, for it to stay accurate.

In short, the present version is misleading, even if facts can be cherry picked to support it. GeoffreyA (talk) 08:03, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Chuckstablers:

1- The infobox lists Hezbollah under "other theaters" meaning other conflicts. WP is not a source anyway, and the Israel-Hamas war template should remove any references to other wars or conflicts. The drone attack is related to the Israel-Hezbollah war, and not to the Israel-Hamas war.

2- The Israel-Hamas war war began so indeed with a Hamas attack; that was >300 days ago. Since then, it has been >300 days of Israeli invasion of Gaza, >300 days of Israel-Hamas fighting in Gaza, >300 days of Israeli wiping Gaza off the map. One day of war is undue.

3- A dozen rockets once a month does not make the war chiefly taking place in Israel.

4- This is original research and WP:Synth.

5- Also original research and synth.

Do you have one single RS explicitly stating that the Israel-Hamas war is taking place in Israel? So far we have provided here at least five RS saying that it is taking place in Gaza, including one that is cited to the Israeli government itself. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I also provided multiple sources which said in 2024 that the war takes place in Gaza and Israel. I'm copying the list below for the convenience of other editors. Btw no one claimed that the war takes place "chiefly in Israel", this is a red herring.

• Reuters: Six months of war in Israel and Gaza In pictures: 100 days of war in Israel and Gaza
• The Atlantic: War in Israel
• BBC: One hundred days of the war in Gaza and Israel
• Brookings Institution: War in Israel and Gaza
• Committee to Protect Journalists: As we continue to monitor the war in Israel/Gaza. Alaexis_¿question? 19:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

They are titles. I guess historians of WW2 will now rewrite the record under the rubric 'The war in England and the Continent' because England was bombed and rocketed from there. There was no war in England, just as there has been, for 9 months, no war in Israel. A prewar situation exists between Israel and Lebanon, but so far neither side has invaded the other, as both Hamas and Israel did. Nishidani (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

So you are citing a Reuters pictures website, an Atlantic "category", a BBC "episode" dating to 6 months ago, a Brookings institute category that includes an article about Hezbollah, and a CPJ website which says "Israel-Gaza War" not "war in Israel"? Looking at the provided sources, clearly "war in Israel" is not supported by the overwhelming majority of RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

If a source says "war in Gaza" it doesn't mean that there was no war in Israel. As I've said earlier, rather than counting how many times a given wording appears in newspaper articles, we need to see how this conflict is described in sources which give an overview of the whole conflict.

• Britannica Israel-Hamas-War
• CNN map-israel-hamas-war,
• BBC What is Hamas and why is it fighting with Israel in Gaza?

In all of these cases the events in Israel occupy much more than 1/300 of the text. Alaexis_¿question? 20:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

"In all of these cases the events in Israel occupy much more than 1/300 of the text." This is a synth and original research conclusion. Now that we have established that RS do not explicitly describe the war that wiped Gaza off the map as being in Israel. So this is neither verifiable nor does it have consensus, why is it still in the lede? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Pinging in case you have missed it. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed it indeed. I'm still not sure I understand your point. I've provided sources that say that the war takes place in Israel. I've also provided sources that describe the war in its entirety and give substantial weight to the events in Israel.

No one claims that the extent of destruction is the same and no reader would think this way considering the rest of the lede's contents. Alaexis_¿question? 12:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: The sources do not explicitly say so; but is a personal conclusion that it does since "the events in Israel occupy much more than 1/300 of the text." Makeandtoss (talk) 12:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Waiting for your RFC so you can get consensus for your contested insertion. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

What are the sources for "chiefly in Gaza"? I hope you will use the same standard of evidence you're applying to the sources I've brought up. Alaexis_¿question? 20:09, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: Five high quality RS were provided in my 08:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC) comment saying that war is exclusively taking place only in Gaza, including one in the words of the Israeli government. "chiefly in Gaza" is my compromise to reach a middle ground solution as it implicitly implies that war is also taking place in Israel but to a lesser degree. Which of the two are you supporting? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

No, your sources only say that a war is going on in Gaza which no one disputes. E.g. your sources #4 says Gaza could see another 7 months of war, Israel says. This statement says nothing about the significance of the events that took place within the Israeli territory on October 7-9 and later (rockets and shooting attacks). Alaexis_¿question? 22:06, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Alaexis: This is a misrepresentation of RS; for example, the AP source I provided explicitly separates the attack on 7 October 2023 from the war that succeeded it in Gaza. AP: the Oct. 7 attack on Israel that sparked the war in Gaza. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Our article covers both, so it's irrelevant. Alaexis_¿question? 20:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The "Continued operations throughout Gaza (June 2024 – present)" section needs to be rewritten

This article is not the timeline or a daily update page. That is instead mainly Timeline of the Israel–Hamas war (13 July 2024 – present) for this section. I'm highlighting this because the title of the section indicates there is likely no over-arching summary that can be created, but redundant or extraneous content (i.e. one-sentence updates for specific days) needs to be moved to the timeline and removed from this article. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 14:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Why did the Israeli civilian death toll go down by one?

Just making sure it wasn't an error. NesserWiki (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion

Looking at coverage about the war, it has been increasingly being referred to as the Israel-Gaza war, so it seems this is a good time to reevaluate the current name. Israel-Gaza war is now being used by The Guardian, Washington Post, BBC, Reuters, Vox, Al Jazeera, NPR, Doctors Without Borders, Committee to Protect Journalists, The National, The Conservation, CBS news, CNBC. Important to note that the Guardian, Washington Post, BBC, Al Jazeera, DWB, CPJ and The National; all very prominent RS; are using the Israel-Gaza war within their website's category, and not just as a single occurence. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong Support. I think that this seems like a considerably more accurate title than what we currently use for this page, given that the Hamas fighters are only a very small part of the targets in this massacre. David A (talk) 10:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Not a vote yet but a pre-vote discussion, but yes I agree with you. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Noted. By the way, I slightly clarified my comment above. David A (talk) 10:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I did think that it should be called Gaza war but we should probably give up on that idea as Israel Gaza seems to have more traction. On first principles, I just cannot see how this war can be described as a war on Hamas, I don't actually care what RS are calling it, or I do but not that much. The facts speak for themselves, a scholarly consensus on a Gaza genocide and the literal leveling of the Gaza infrastructure, many other things, all point to this as a war on/with Gaza and it's inhabitants (+ UNRWA on the side). The idea that this "started" with the Hamas attack is also wrong, none of this happened in a vacuum. Selfstudier (talk) 11:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I have felt it’s too obscure, but would “third Gaza war” be a good option? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately neither third Gaza war nor Gaza war are supported by RS at this moment, so I think our strongest arguments that would make for a successful move is as demonstrated by the above cited RS: Israel-Gaza war. But I agree that it implies a false equivalency, but it's the best option we have - so far. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

"Gaslighting," perhaps, captures what is being done. Were he alive, George Orwell would have had a lot of essays to write.

Israel-Gaza war would be a massive improvement over Israel-Hamas war. Gaza should be in the title because the war is about Gaza, its people, and its destruction. To deny this is to deny reality. I don't know what more to say because it is obvious and the simplest description of the facts. GeoffreyA (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Why aren't the Israeli civilian accidentally killed by the IDF and the 2 settlers killed included I'm the civilian death toll?

The person who was accidentally killed by security forces in November 2023 Jerusalem Shooting is included in the civilian death toll. NesserWiki (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Also,settlers killed in the conflict have been marked as civilian deaths on here before. NesserWiki (talk) 20:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I meant to include a space after the comma, sorry. NesserWiki (talk) 20:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I meant to say "in the civilian death toll" not "I'm civilian death toll", sorry. NesserWiki (talk) 20:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The November 2023 shooting is what I meant to say. Sorry for all the typos. NesserWiki (talk) 20:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 13 August 2024

Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Gaza war – Despite the move request to Israel-Gaza war being closed as no consensus in February 2024, a lot has changed since then and RS have converged to use this name. This move is long overdue and aligns with the relevant Wikipedia guidelines of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGE.

RS per WP that uses the Israel-Gaza war name as the title of their coverage category:

• The Guardian: Israel-Gaza war
• The Washington Post: Israel-Gaza war
• BBC: Israel-Gaza war
• NPR: Israel-Gaza war
• The Conservation: Israel-Gaza war
• Al Jazeera: Israel's war on Gaza

Other RS that uses the Israel-Gaza war name as the title of their coverage category:

• Doctors Without Borders: Israel-Gaza war
• Committee to Protect Journalists: Israel-Gaza conflict
• The National: Israel-Gaza war
• Middle East Eye: Israel's war on Gaza

RS per WP that uses the Israel-Gaza war in their coverage:

• Reuters: [5], [6], [7]: Israel-Gaza war
• CBS news: [8] Israel-Gaza war
• Vox: [9], [10]: Israel's war in Gaza

This name change would also align with a third Wikipedia guideline, all five of the WP:CRITERIA one, namely #5 on Consistency, as this would align with Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza war. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Update to add other RS mentioning Gaza instead of Hamas in one way or another in at least one instance:

• Save the Children: [11]: War in Gaza as coverage category title
• Haaretz Israeli newspaper: [12]: Gaza war as coverage category title (RS per WP)
• Relief Web: Relief Web: Gaza war
• Crisis Group: [13]: Gaza war
• Norwegian Refugee Council: [14]: Gaza conflict Makeandtoss (talk) 11:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The nominator has presented no evidence that the common name has changed, just that a small number of selected examples use "Israel-Gaza war", and it is clear that the most common and recognizable name among our readers is Israel-Hamas war.

In addition, the title has accuracy issues - Gaza has no army and is not fighting this war, while Hamas does and is.

Regarding the evidence the nominator does present, it is highly misleading. For example, they imply Reuters has shifted to "Israel-Gaza war". This is false; in the past week they have used one article with that term, compared to many (eg. 1, 2, 3) for Israel-Hamas war.

They also cite WP:CONSISTENCY, but the proposed title is not similar to the titles they claim it would be consistent with, and even if it was the wars are too dissimilar for consistency to apply. BilledMammal (talk) 10:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

A commonly recognizable name per WP is a "name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources)," i.e. determined by RS not by readers.

As for accuracy, Gaza has no army indeed, but Hamas is not the only one fighting this war, as it is fighting alongside Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in the Gaza Strip. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

And "Gaza war" blows away both, see here. nableezy - 05:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Gaza War (2023-202x) would be best, but Israel-Gaza War is an improvement over the current title. It squares better with the facts and daily coverage on this topic is largely about Gaza. Israel-Hamas is one thread of the tapestry of this war, and arguably, one point of view; it is not the whole, but a part. The war includes more than the IDF, Hamas, and other factions fighting; Gaza has been largely reduced to rubble, reminiscent of WW2 photographs; its people are killed day in and day out, excused as "attacks on Hamas," and they run from place to place with what little they have left. Hospitals, schools, and infrastructure are bombed. Doctors and journalists are killed. History is erased. The Israel-Hamas War title focuses on the part, leaving out the other big pieces, and we know that leaving out information is one technique of lying. It continues a one-sided Western narrative, that it is a war on Hamas and civilians are, unfortunately, in the way, when the facts say otherwise.

GeoffreyA (talk) 11:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

So you wish to replace the "Western Narrative" with you narrative? PaPiker (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I only wish for all narratives to be replaced with the truth. GeoffreyA (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Your truth? PaPiker (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

No. I don't believe in the notion of "one's truth," which is subjective. Rather, truth is the accurate mirroring, at a certain level of abstraction (quarks vs. atoms vs. humans), of Nature or the state of affairs out there. Unfortunately, the medium of human language is prone to a host of problems. Of course, Wikipedia has other principles to go by. GeoffreyA (talk) 07:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The only "truth" that matters on Wikipedia is the one that is shown by reliable sources, and they consistently call it the Israel-Hamas War rather than the Israel-Gaza War. I wouldn't be opposed to creating a redirect that takes it to this page and including it the lead, though. Jdcomix (talk) 15:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Certainly. That's why I added that last sentence. GeoffreyA (talk) 16:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

This is about the war, and by the way, the article still mentions the humanitarian consequences. But if you are concerned about the coverage of humanitarian issues, see Gaza genocide, Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present), and the many other articles detailing Israeli war crimes. Personisinsterest (talk) 11:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support, since the current title is a legal, philosophical and logical nonsense IMO. Correctly, wars are either between organisations (Government of Israel – Hamas) or between countries (Israel–Gaza). Mixing up the two feels badly incorrect. Also it smacks of propaganda (to give a feeling that the entire nation is fighting an organisation). Yet we wouldn't say "US – Ba'ath Party war" (rather, a US–Syria war), "US–Taliban war" (it was US–Afghanistan war; NATO–Taliban war would be correct, too), etc. In short, the proposed title sounds infinitely better than the current one, however widespread the latter may be. — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, for all intents and purposes Hamas is Gaza. They started this war and that is who Israel is going after. If it was all of Gaza the Gazans would all be fighting back but they are not, it's just Hamas and its sycophants. PaPiker (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas is Gaza. Wow. Going by your logic, Israel is Likud. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas has subverted and replaced the actual authority of Gaza, the Palestine Authority. Hamas is not a political party. Hezbollah is a functioning political party. PaPiker (talk) 01:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The main participants in this war are Hamas and Israel. Gaza is a territory, not a side in the conflict. I don’t see any reason to change the title to something less specific. UnspokenPassion (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Israel is not a territory? — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Israel is a country with an army. Gaza is a territory controlled by a militant group but who’s de jure administrators are the PA. Personisinsterest (talk) 08:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Hamas and Israel are the key players. Gaza is just a place, not a combatant. Waqar💬 20:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support. I think that this seems like a considerably more accurate title than what we currently use for this page, given that the Hamas fighters are only a very small part of the targets. Also, this is not a war, just an extremely onesided massacre. David A (talk) 21:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid argument for moving a page. There has to be consensus among reliable sources to change the name, and there simply isn't at the moment. Jdcomix (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hamas is the primary target with the other smaller groups less so. The fact that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure and civilians as cover/shields makes said infrastructure/civilians no longer safe. Launch rockets from a hospital the hospital becomes a target, same thing with schools et al, coupled with Hamas not allowing some people to leave some areas. The people that can leave the area are leaving. PaPiker (talk) 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Theres going to be no consensus on this issue like what happened last time. Fundamentally the issue is that reliable sources are mostly using the term Israel-Hamas war some use Israel-Gaza war but not much in comparison to Israel-Hamas and I wouldn't include Al Jazeera I think we can all agree they are just a biased news source, we can look at Britannica's article on this event as an example of why we maybe shouldn't move the article. Also I encourage users to be as neutral as possible we can't be using original research I believe whats happening in Gaza is as bad as what happened in Dresden and Tokyo in WW2 but again these are just my opinions and doesn't mean that we can move the article because of said opinion. Black roses124 (talk) 23:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  But this is an ongoing war in the future if most non biased articles use the term Israel-Gaza war I would most definitely be in favor of moving the article. My opinions is everyone take their opinion on how ethical the war is and everyone just just look at what most non biased articles are calling it. Black roses124 (talk) 23:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  Also when it comes to Al Jazeera I also support Palestine but a news agency needs to be independent you can be publicly funded and still be independent but Al Jazeera is not an example of that. They have clear position on this conflict their twitter account posts anti Semitic memes, they make videos minimizing the holocaust, they accuse YouTubers of working for Israel etc. One only needs to look at Al Jazeera controversies and criticism to see they are not independent and are not non biased. Black roses124 (talk) 00:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom and kashmiri. Country-organization doesn't make sense. CNN has also used "Israel-Gaza war". Outside of exact matches a lot of RS simply mention "war in Gaza". I would definitely prefer something like "Gaza War (2023-2024)" (we already have the precedent of Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza War) since that is were the main action/destruction is taking place. That also saves us the headache of having to name the key players in the title. Similar articles are Vietnam War, Korean War, Malvinas War, Iraq War, etc. But the proposed title is still an improvement. - Ïvana (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with you Gaza war seems the most sensible but again we need RS. Black roses124 (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support per my and others' comments on past move requests. The Israel-Hamas framing is an NPOV and an accuracy concern and that outweighs the prevalence of its use in RS, especially since RS are moving toward an Israel-Gaza framing as is the nature of the war with parties other than Hamas taking an increasingly prominent role in the fighting and strategic calculus. Unbandito (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME would be the WP:NPOV move. "Israel-Gaza" and "Israel-Hamas" could both be argued are POV framings. However, the nominator is WP:CHERRYPICKING in favor of one of these POVs here. The "Israel-Hamas" framing actually appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME, including in some of the RS nom cites. All/both POVs gripe about what they perceive as media bias. So let's stick to policy.

• The Conversation also titles its coverage as "Israel-Hamas"
• Reuters actually titles its covered as "Israel and Hamas at war", not the selectively selected articles nom cites
• Associated Press titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Middle East Eye is a very WP:BIASED source (unless we should use the Jerusalem Post as well)
• Haaretz titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war" (left out by nom)
• NBC News titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Foreign Affairs titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Financial Times titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Foreign Policy titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Deutsche Welle titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• New York Times titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Politico EU titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• CNN titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• The Global and Mail titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• ABC titles its coverage "Israel-Hamas war"
• Vox, cited by nom, also uses "Israel-Hamas war"
• Reuters, cited by nom, also uses "Israel-Hamas war"

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Longhornsg (talk • contribs) 05:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Just to point out that a few of your citations for how outlets also use "Israel-Hamas war", are older articles than those cited by the nominator, so it seems that RS are changing over time from "Israel-Hamas war" to "Israel-Gaza war". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Of those outlets, I spot-checked three and all three also use "the war in Gaza". The term is easy to find in Reuters The Guardian and The Conversation . Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support, and copying my comment from the last time we had this discussion.The claim that Israel-Hamas War is a common name is bogus, if it were the common name you wouldnt see the Washington Post, The Guardian and so on all use Israel-Gaza war as the name of the conflict. As before, Gaza is what has been systematically bombed, Gaza's universities have been destroyed, Gaza's hospitals have been destroyed, Gaza's residents have been displaced and starved. This name is and has always been an attempt to push an Israeli POV that it is a war on Hamas. Gaza is what has had its water, electricity, and food cut off, Gaza and Gazans are what have been targeted throughout this campaign. Wikipedia is effectively pushing Israeli propaganda with this title, and it is non-neutral. Since this is a descriptive title, and not like people are falsely claiming the common name, it is required to abide by Wikipedia:NCENPOV: use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications. The POV implications here are that Hamas is what is being attacked here, and that is and always has been POV-driven BS. None of these are common names, which requires an overwhelming majority of sources using a single name. They are all descriptive titles, and as a result we need a NPOV one. Not one that parrots the Israeli POV that this is a war against Hamas, despite all of Gaza being in ruin. nableezy - 05:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Both “Israel-Hamas” and “Israel-Gaza”/“Gaza war” are all used by reliable sources, however contrary to the beginning of the war which “israel-Hamas” was a somewhat acceptable term back then, the term by now doesn’t make much sense in the current circumstances anymore. as by now there are full siege on Gaza not “full siege on Hamas”, a Gaza famine not “Hamas famine”, bombing of Gaza that destroyed or damaged 70% of entire Gaza’s building not “70% of hamas buildings”, and a Gaza genocide that most scholars believe israel has/is committing against all Gaza not a “Hamas genocide”. All now make very little sense to label as “Israel-Hamas conflict” anymore contrary to the beginning of the war. Adding to this older legit arguments that the Palestinian resistance factions fighting in Gaza are not just Hamas, that Hamas is the political party that rules Gaza government (which itself doesn’t mean every government employee “is hamas”) so it would be like calling it “Likud-Hamas war”, and that “Gaza war”/“israel-Gaza war” would be in correspondence with earlier existing articles (e.g 2009 Gaza war, 2014 Gaza war, 2019 Gaza war, Gaza–Israel conflict, etc). All combined leave very little sense to keep using the current title, especially by now.

Stephan rostie (talk) 14:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. As a previous opposer I now support a title change due to the noticeable and sizable shift in coverage in reliable sources, noted in examples from the proposal above. Yeoutie (talk) 10:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. -- 웬디러비/Wendy Lovey (talk) 11:55, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@웬디러비: WP:!VOTE - Ïvana (talk) 21:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Longhornsg. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 13:11, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. My opinion concurs with @Longhornsg's reasoning and examples, though given that there are a number of sources that also suggest Israel Gaza instead of Israel Hamas, I'd suggest including both in the lead if possible. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - nothing has changed since the last time, so what makes the nominator think there will be a consensus this time? The sources call it the Israel-Hamas War (see Longhornsg's comment), and there have been numerous move requests on this page, none of which have succeeded. Jdcomix (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support It is instructive to look back at the 2014 Gaza war (How Does Israel's Last Invasion of Gaza Compare to Now?. Of course we have an article, Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, for the current version and it seems to me that one of the useful things that could be done here is to merge the so-called "Israel-Hamas war" into that, since that title more properly represents the situation than this Israeli POV driven article title does, which purports to say that this is about Hamas, only about Hamas and that Hamas started it, which of course is ideological bullpoo.

In 2014, the "Gaza war" was the same thing, just check the list of belligerents. Israel invaded and said that the aim was to destroy tunnels and stop rockets (sound familiar?). "Gazan civilian casualty estimates range between 70 percent by the Gaza Health Ministry, 65 percent by the United Nations' (UN) Protection Cluster by OCHA (based in part on Gaza Health Ministry reports), and 36 percent by Israeli officials.(sound familiar?) Israel's "100-eyes-for-an eye spiral of violence" (sound familiar?).

OK, "only" a month and a half and no hostages so that's different but what a f'in waste of time, cos we were right back there again in 2021 and now once more in 2023/24, same adversaries, same Netanyahu, plus la change. This time around, blow Gaza to bits, destroy its hospitals, its schools, mosques, literally trash the place and kill 1 in 50 of the population, while still trying to claim it's all about Hamas. If Israel cannot completely do for Hamas (a likely outcome), then Israel can just colonially occupy and settle the place like they already illegally do in the West Bank and Jerusalem.

The very least we might do is acknowledge that Gaza is a target. Selfstudier (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, it's "not done" to acknowledge that Gaza is a target. GeoffreyA (talk) 17:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME as delineated by Longhornsg in his comprehensive missive above. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  If it's a commonname (we bold those) why isn't it bolded in the lead? Hint: Because its a descriptive title and not a commonname. Selfstudier (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  If it were the common name, you wouldnt see The Washington Post, The Guardian, BBC for example using something else. A common name is a single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic. That is not the case here, this is a descriptive title, not a common name. nableezy - 18:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Israel wages a war on the Palestinian people, not just Hamas. Most wars are labelled by the countries. Calling this the "Israel-Hamas war" is an Israeli POV and not suitable for Wikipedia. When this article was created, some probably thought it would be a short operation against Hamas. I doubt anyone can honestly hold that view anymore. The neutral name is the one proposed in this RfC. Jeppiz (talk) 19:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The war is between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Gaza. Sources are quite clear on that point. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose — Per Longhornsg, whose evidence makes clear that "Israel–Hamas war" is the WP:COMMONNAME for the war beginning on Oct. 7, 2023. While I can understand the desire to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS regarding the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, I.M.O. that argument doesn't somehow make "Israel-Hamas" not the war's COMMONNAME and therefore the best article title. DecafPotato (talk) 09:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - The war was a response to an attack from Hamas. Gaza is just a region. Nashhinton (talk) 22:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• If a move is to happen, move to Gaza War (2023–present). I think it's borderline impossible to argue whether "Israel–Hamas war" or "Israel–Gaza war" is the COMMONNAME, and both titles present NPOV problems: if it's "Israel–Hamas war", the implication is Israel versus terrorists; if it's "Israel–Gaza war", the implication is Israel versus civilians. Previous wars between Israel and Hamas are referred to on Wikipedia as Gaza Wars (Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza War) and using the location gets around the NPOV issues. I know some will note that the war isn't limited to Gaza, but neither were the 2008–2009 and 2014 wars, and this conflict is overwhelmingly unfolding in Gaza. JOEBRO⁶⁴ 22:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support Gaza War (2023–present) per TheJoebro64. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support Gaza war with or without the dates per Joe and my previous votes for that title in prior RMs. Levivich (talk) 23:58, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support Gaza War or Gaza War (2023–present) per TheJoebro64 and Levivich.Pachu Kannan (talk) 01:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support Gaza War (2023–present). I already explained why in my previous comment above (I actually proposed 2023–2024 but 2023–present is obviously the best choice). - Ïvana (talk) 06:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

  I would also support Gaza war or Gaza War (2023-present) as my second and third options respectively after Israel-Gaza war. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:02, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Gaza War (2023–present) or the proposed title. Gaza war alone may also be appropriate, as the subject appears to have seized the primary topic space, but that may be a separate discussion – though a search for "Gaza war" on Google already directs to the topic. The current title is, by contrast, grossly inaccurate. Hamas is far from the only participant on the Palestinian side, with the PIJ, PFLP, Al-Aqsa Brigades and many more also participating. This non-geographical title also violates the basic tenets of WP:NCWWW, not even stating where the conflict is principally occurring. It is exceptionally odd to not be referring to Gaza at this point in the title, as the whole of Gaza is involved, and even the peripheral conflicts revolve around Gaza: the Houthis and Hezbollah have made a cessation of hostilities contingent on a ceasefire in Gaza. The war has involved the bombing of Gaza and the invasion of Gaza, while the Gaza Strip famine and Gaza genocide pages are corollary events. There are several names for this event, but most incorporate the name "Gaza", including Israel-Gaza war, Gaza war, war in Gaza, and war on Gaza. By contrast, "Israel-Hamas war" – merely one example in an archipelago of names – is the lone exception to the rule. It is far from the common name (and the suggestions to the contrary are rather risible), and it is now diminishing in prevalence. With the likes of the BBC, Guardian and WP now defaulting to Israel-Gaza war, there is little cause for further confusion on this. The current title is one with poor accuracy, lessening applicability, and its usage now pales in comparison (per Nableezy) to the wider discussion of a "Gaza war". Iskandar323 (talk) 07:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support: Gaza war with or without dates, also support above Israel-Gaza war. Per the nominator and kashmiri, the current title is misleading as I said in previous discussion. This conflict involves not just Hamas but all Palestinian resistance movements in Gaza. The broader involvement of groups like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine demonstrates that the title "Israel–Gaza war" more accurately reflects the scope of the conflict. Additionally, the existing title suggests a conflict solely between Israel and a single organization, while in reality, it is a war that affects the entire region of Gaza and its inhabitants. Reliable sources (RS) have increasingly used the term "Israel-Gaza war," aligning with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGE guidelines. Notable examples include The Guardian, The Washington Post, BBC, NPR, and Al Jazeera etc. — Ainty Painty (talk) 09:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: this is not a war only on Gaza's ruling political party, it is a war on Gaza. Nobody is arguing that only Hamas members have been targeted. Multiple sources have used Israel-Gaza war, or simply Gaza war. None of the fighting has occurred in Israel, so Gaza war seems appropriate. 20WattSphere (talk) 02:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: The OP says this should be brought in line with the Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza war but the big difference here is that this war was started by Hamas and it is who the war is against and thus needs to be recognized as such. There is no war here against Gaza. MaskedSinger (talk) 07:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas was the "main antagonist" for Israel (as it were), in all of these conflicts (as the governing body of the strip), so all of these were just as much "Israel-Hamas wars" based on the same shakey premise that is being maintained for the current title. Nothing fundamental has changed between these conflicts, so there is no obvious reason to switch for this conflict to an inconsistent and simultaneously imprecise and ambiguous descriptive title. The fuller truth is that the current title fails on numerous other levels as well, as elucidated by many editors further up this thread. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! So it would be much more precise, accurate and correct to rename all of them to Israel-Hamas wars and then differentiate them by the year, etc.

What is Gaza? There is no war with Gaza. Israel left Gaza on its own accord. To say there's a war with Gaza is a complete misnomer.

Thank you for agreeing with me. MaskedSinger (talk) 08:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

“Of its own accord” is quite a euphemistic way of saying “putting it under full siege, controlling all aspects of its population including heir registry, resources, borders, water, and airspace, while continuing to commit crimes against its nationals int he West Bank, forcing them to live under occupation, settler pogroms, deprivation of rights, and administrative detention” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Well said. If anyone lives under occupation, it's the people of Gaza under the occupation of Hamas. Can other religions be practiced freely there? Can people be openly homosexual? Israel is liberating Gaza from the rule of Hamas. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM Selfstudier (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Christianity also has a small presence in Gaza Strip per sources. Pachu Kannan (talk) 16:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Israel is doing a mighty fine job "liberating Gaza," flattening it to the ground. GeoffreyA (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I also said "based on the same shakey premise", but those past events are not named that for good reason – and there's every reason to be consistent here. Since you're ignoring every single serious point being made here, however, it seems you have little interest in properly engaging with the naming discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

No not at all. My vote isn't disqualified just because you don't like it. Sorry to inform you, but this isn't Iskypedia. MaskedSinger (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s disqualified because you’re wrong. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

If that's your preferred approach, why not name it the Likud-Hamas war, then? 20WattSphere (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: An extremely regretful oppose, but Israel–Gaza war should refer to Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip rather than the entirety of the war from 2023/10/07 to the present-day. This is what seems to be the most neutral reception from what I do see anyway. Josethewikier (talk) 09:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Josethewikier: Why would there be two separate "named war" titles for different, overlapping periods of the same conflict? It's the same war, no? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hamas is the political party that has been causing problems for Israel, rather than Gazans. Naming the article with "Gaza" incorrectly places the fault of the initial attack of 10/07 on "Gaza" rather than the accurate Hamas. Israel remains the way it does because the country/state voted Likud in; Hamas should be seen differently from "Gaza" as Gazans did not elect Hamas in in the last 18 years, and none of the war crimes are the fault of Gazans and/or Gaza. Josethewikier (talk) 14:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Hamas attacks did not happen 'in a vacuum', Guterres says

  ""It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation," Guterres said." Selfstudier (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  I could say the same for the Israeli people, they were just luckier that its allies helped the Israeli government (too much so, might I add), which directly made is possible for Israel to occupy much/all of the Palestinian Territories in the first place, while the Palestinian government received no such degrees of help even from its closest of allies. Point is that this remains a war between Israel and Hamas, just that the victims are predominantly Gazan civilians caught between yet another Israeli invasion and much crossfire from both sides (though mostly Israeli). This is not to forget the 1,100+ victims of the first couple days/weeks of this war though, which were predominantly Israeli and had nothing at all to do with Gaza, its civilians, or most of its residents. Josethewikier (talk) 16:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  allies helped the Israeli government (too much so, might I add), which directly made is possible for Israel to occupy much/all of the Palestinian Territories in the first place, while the Palestinian government received no such degrees of help What Palestinian government? There was no Palestinian government in 1948 or 1967. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  you're correct, and I never meant that. Compare Israel vs Palestine in the last 30 years or so, and their governments; anyway that is not relevant. If someone convinces me that a change in the title benefits the truth-telling of the atrocities the residents of Gaza face and have faced in the last 317 days specifically, I will retract my opposition. Josethewikier (talk) 17:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Well, calling it "Israel-Hamas" war suggests it's a war between Israel and Hamas. Calling it "Gaza war" suggests it's a war in Gaza. Which of the two do you consider more accurate? Levivich (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  I do apologise this is turning into an argument. I sincerely request for convincing factors and not rhetorical questions. Asking me questions do not guide me towards the truth. Josethewikier (talk) 17:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Accuracy is a convincing factor. Which of the titles (current or proposed) is more accurate is not a rhetorical question. Levivich (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Also I'd disagree with had nothing at all to do with Gaza. They lived on the border of Gaza. This does NOT mean that what happened to them was in any way justified, but they were targeted because they lived on the border of Gaza, which is something to do with Gaza. Levivich (talk) 17:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is not to forget the 1,100+ victims of the first couple days/weeks of this war though, which were predominantly Israeli and had nothing at all to do with Gaza, its civilians, or most of its residents.

  if the above is inaccurate, please point any and all errors out; else, do not misquote me. Josethewikier (talk) 17:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  The 1,100 victims is who I'm talking about; they lived on the border of Gaza, that's not "nothing at all to do with Gaza," it's something to do with Gaza. They got attacked because they were next to Gaza. And the attack came from Gaza. That's all something to do with Gaza. Levivich (talk) 18:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  You are correct and I do apologise for the above statement. It's definitely not as straightforward as that, but I do get your point and agree with much of it. Josethewikier (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: The current title is ok, although various titles are found in reliable sources.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support the proposed title (second choice) or Gaza War (2023–present) (first choice) or another title that names Gaza. By now the main reason the war is notable is the mass casualties and destruction, not the underlying motives or the names of the belligerents. These details can go in the text of the article. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 15:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: The current title is ok. Between media outlets, the title of this war vary. But the majority still say "Israel-Hamas". The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: It doesn't seem like anything has changed since last time; Israel-Hamas War remains the WP:COMMONNAME per Longhornsg. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Now that the BBC has moved to Israel-Gaza, who is one of the most accurate mainstream sources in the en-world, im my opinion. I think a lot of the mainstream US-based media is still using Israel-Hamas, but given the US support for the war, they are probably less reliable as sources in this topic area. Aszx5000 (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  I live outside the US and I have most often heard it called "Israel's war on Gaza". I'm not sure I've actually heard the current title outside of Wikipedia. 20WattSphere (talk) 21:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  Well in Australia ABC have used "Israel-Hamas war" https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-10/six-months-of-war-destroys-gaza-strip/103684830 Black roses124 (talk) 23:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

  A quick search of the ABC website reveals:

  • Israel-Gaza war - 53 pages of results
  • Israel-Hamas war - 7 pages of results

  So looks like ABC are leaning heavily to the side of Israel-Gaza war. 20WattSphere (talk) 01:52, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  Again as other editors have stated multiple news agencies of many different nations use both. I don’t disagree with you, I just disagree with the characterization that the United States uses “Israel-Hamas” and the rest of the world exclusively uses “Israel-Gaza” and Wikipedia is perpetuating American narrative it’s just not the case I don’t believe there’s any non biased news agency that has not used both. I don’t like Israel-Hamas or Israel-Gaza these are both POVs I believe Gaza war is the most sensible but even though I personally like Gaza war the issue is compared to Israel-Hamas, the Gaza war is barely being used a small minority just from a neutral perspective a majority of the coverage on this conflict is Israel-Hamas I’m not saying I agree with it but that is the COMMON NAME. Black roses124 (talk) 02:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, but it sounds plausible that US media are more likely to use "Israel-Hamas war" than the average global outlet. For example, many of the outlets listed above as using "Israel-Hamas war" are American. This could lead to US readers considering "Israel-Hamas war" to be the COMMON NAME, while global audiences do not. 20WattSphere (talk) 11:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree definitely Anerican media is extremely likely to push that narrative due to the country’s strategic relationship with Israel. Extremely similar to how Al Jazeera will always push a pro Palestine narrative due to them being owned by Qatar when another conflict arises which it definitely will we all know which media will say what. I’m not really in a disagreement with you if this gets moved to Gaza war I’m all for it, that is the most neutral way to frame this war Gaza war is no POV but right now I don’t think there’s any consensus for our opinion. This situation is too controversial once this war ends I’m hoping people can be more open minded and consider a different title and take their personal opinions on how ethical the war is aside and just try to make a article that is the most non biased and neutral. Black roses124 (talk) 17:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current title is sufficient for the time being. By the end of the war (hopefully soon) we should then revisit the discussion.--Excel23 (talk) 01:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  Agreed. Black roses124 (talk) 02:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current title, "Israel–Hamas war," remains the WP:COMMONNAME as evidenced by the majority of reliable sources, including in Eastern Europe, where I read the news. IntrepidContributor (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Israel and Hamas have been at war for 30 plus years. This conflict is Israel using "Hamas" as a pretext to destroy Gaza. Kire1975 (talk) 05:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support The new title will finally correct the gross inaccuracies of the current title; Hamas is not the only organization fighting Israel in this war, not by a long shot. Furthermore, as the post notes, the majority of sources have moved from using the inherently biased "Israel-Hamas war" to "Israel-Gaza war." RealKnockout (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Indirect deaths

Forgive my ignorance if this has already been discussed. A letter was published in The Lancet a month ago which estimated that 186,000 Gazans could have died in this conflict (the lead author was quoted clarifying that this is a very conservative estimate). The estimate includes indirect deaths, including from lack of health care, food and water.

Is this worth a mention? I suppose the question is whether these are attributable to the war. Even if these deaths are not directly due to violence, you could argue they are a result of war through loss of functioning hospitals, food supply chains, international aid or other reasons.

The Lancet letter: [15]

Snopes: [16] 20WattSphere (talk) 10:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It was discussed recently, and there was disagreement. For now, it's best to stick with the numbers that we've got. GeoffreyA (talk) 10:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It was already in the article and was removed. It should definitely be in the article in the former concise phrasing that "indirect deaths are likely to be magnitudes higher." Makeandtoss (talk) 11:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The Lancet piece is still cited in the infobox with the estimate of 186,000+. However, the infobox incorrectly reports that the Lancet letter estimated 186,000+ indirect deaths. Their estimate is 186,000+ total deaths after including indirect deaths at a 4:1 ratio. That number comprises 37,396 direct deaths + 37,396 x 4 indirect deaths or 37,396 direct + 149,584 indirect equalling 186,980 total dead. It should not say "likely to be magnitudes higher" because that's just wrong. A magnitude higher is 10x, two magnitudes is 100x, three magnitudes is 1000x. Magnitudes are logarithmic. "Magnitudes higher" – plural – implies a minimum of 3.74 million+ deaths. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Then multiple times higher. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Either 'multiple' or 'four-fold' to comport / accord with the Lancet appear fine to me. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

It is worthy to note that this the lancet paper received 8 academic citations since the time it was published just a month ago, so it is definitely credible and worthy of mentioning in the article imo Stephan rostie (talk) 14:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm unsure how to handle the infobox side of this matter. There are several options that come to mind, so I'll put them forward and allow other editors to comment on them. The infobox improperly reports the 186,000 figure as being indirect deaths, when it is the combined direct and indirect deaths. The possibilities all citable to the Lancet article are:

Option A1: Indirect deaths likely to be multiple times higher

Option A2: Indirect deaths likely to be three to fifteen times higher

Option B: 149,584+ indirect deaths

Option C: 186,000+ dead including from indirect causes

Any of these options can have their wording altered as needed, these are just generalizations of available approaches. Option B invokes WP:CALC using the Lancet's precise figure for direct deaths. Mr rnddude (talk) 16:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Option A1 seems to be the best option, until the war ends and body collecting and counting goes on to determine the true death toll The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:48, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Infobox content should be as inarguably factual as possible so I agree with A1 as well. Selfstudier (talk) 11:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Whatever is put there, it should be written to avoid the common misconception that can be seen in the first post of this section: "186,000 Gazans could have died". That's wrong; it isn't an estimate of people having died, but an estimate of people who will die in the future due to indirect effects of the war. The Lancet letter is very clear on that but I see the erroneous interpretation quite often. Zero^talk 15:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

It arises from reading the paragraph where the figure is presented in isolation without the context of the preceding paragraph where the meaning of the figure is explained in detail. Even having read it when it was released and knowing that at the time, I'd presently neglected it as well. This is a rather difficult letter to introduce properly without including inadvertent errors. I'm thinking A1 has the fewest potential issues, as its core premise holds true irrespective of the moment of the cessation of conflict: the indirect death toll being multiple times larger than the direct death toll. The IB aside, we now have the problem in the article prose that it states that the death toll in Gaza could already surpass 186,000. This indicates a current death toll of 186,000 rather than a future one. I considered altering 'already' to 'eventually' but that too could cause confusion. The conflict, being that it is on-going, necessarily, could 'eventually' surpass any figure death toll in the future (both directly and indirectly). I don't know how to rectify that sentence at present.

I should, while I am available, note that an estimate of people who will die in the future due to indirect effects of the war isn't strictly correct either. It's an estimate of the final death toll once all present indirect and future indirect deaths have occurred and includes all present direct deaths up until July 5th, 2024, the day the letter was published. Mr rnddude (talk) 16:44, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I can't see the letter before a correction was made on July 10, but the present version does not say "death toll in Gaza could already surpass 186,000". The only place where that figure appears is "..it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186,000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza." If one only reads that sentence it would be easy to mistake it for deaths up to that point, but in the context established by the previous paragraph it means both past (agreed on that) and future deaths. Zero^talk 04:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

You may have misunderstood me. Our article – the Wikipedia article – presents that the death toll in Gaza could already surpass 186,000 citing the Lancet letter. The letter does not say that. See the last paragraph of the humanitarian crisis section. I'm saying that needs to be fixed, but I'm not sure how to re-write that sentence. I thought about replacing 'already' with 'eventually', but that won't work for the aforementioned reason. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I misunderstood you. I changed that sentence. Zero^talk 07:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

A1 to avoid false precision. Levivich (talk) 16:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option A1 seems like a good idea.

Also, does anyone know how missing people are counted? This NYT article earlier in the year stated that "it is unclear how much the estimate of those unaccounted for is already reflected in the official death toll." Back then the official toll was 31,000, and 7,000 were missing.

[17]

More recently, when the official death toll was 35,000, it included 25,000 identified individuals and 10,000 unidentified bodies. So I'm very unclear on how missing people are considered here. [18] 20WattSphere (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

While I would like to avoid using the article at all, as I have stated in previous discussions on other pages, the fact that multiple RS have made stories about it means it has spread greatly and so is part of the discussion. This being the case, if we are to reference in numbers, where it's not directly quoting with attribution and context, then Option A1 should be used. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't initially oppose including this, but after observing

• The confusion about what the authors meant, like whether 186k includes past + future deaths, etc.
• The messy attempted clarifications, like one author's characterization of the 186k figure as "purely illustrative" (in a deleted tweet)
• The critical analysis by Michael Spagat, which calls the estimate "implausible"

I think it's best to wait for a more clear, well-researched and broadly accepted estimate, rather than including this one. If we do include it, we need to be very careful about how we frame it. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 17:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I see nothing to convince me since last time this was raised that it is a reasonable thing to add to this article. This article should stay reasonably close to the facts rather than even scientific speculation. I am quite happy for it to be used in the casualties article but not in this one. NadVolum (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

This is a reliable source, and the fact that it confuses some people is not a reason to avoid it. It is quite clear if read carefully. However, the numbers which are not claimed to be more than very rough estimates don't need to be quoted and so option A1 is fine. Zero^talk 04:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

OptionA. Given the vast documentation of dire conditions in Gaza since October 23, and the predictable epidemiological consequences of both war and the total breakdown of basic sanitary infrastructure, mentioning the forecast in these general terms is the correct option to choose.Nishidani (talk) 12:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option A. Also note that while the Palestinian sources (PMO, MoH) seem to focus on violent deaths, Israel has also employed as warfare – with ample evidence – starvation, destruction of healthcare services, and multiple forced relocations that normally kill those most frail. Their respective victim counts should normally be included in the totals. much like we have included all the starvation deaths in Holodomor. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I have implemented option A1, given that this is the most widely supported format in this discussion. There are a few editors who have indicated that they'd prefer wholesale exclusion, basically an Option D, which may be discussed further. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Hamas militants killed

How many Hamas militants were killed during the war? I didn't find any data in the article or in the infobox. -- Gabi S. (talk) 20:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

To my understanding, the short answer is that no one can reliably say right now. Unbandito (talk) 21:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

According to IDF, 17,000+ Hamas militants were killed per https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-it-razed-over-50-tunnels-in-gaza-egypt-border-area-in-past-week/. It is mentioned in the infobox. There is no total data from Hamas, they only announce some deaths of their militants. Pachu Kannan (talk) 04:11, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I see it only in the article notes, not in the infobox on the top right. -- Gabi S. (talk) 08:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Their last update from April 2024 was less than 20% of their militants killed per https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a. It is also mentioned in the infobox. Pachu Kannan (talk) 04:15, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The numbers of Palestinians and Hamas militants supposedly killed is incredibly blurred. Doubt the actual number either way will ever be accurate. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Qualifier

@Josethewikier: The addition of this qualifier relating to Gaza casualties while the RFC is ongoing is problematic; especially considering that the RFC will result in a clear no consensus for the addition of this qualifier. [19] Makeandtoss (talk) 10:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's wait for the formal close. It has been requested so not that long to wait. Selfstudier (talk) 10:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I would not mind one bit the removal of it, however, I believe it provides better concision and precision, without any downsides. Josethewikier (talk) 10:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Josethewikier: There is no consensus for its inclusion, neither here on this talk page, nor on the soon-to-be-closed RFC discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I am aware. The upsides are obvious (concision and precision) and the downsides less so. Ultimately, I do not have an opinion of my own, and I will respect what any current or future consensuses feel regarding its inclusion (or not). Josethewikier (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)