Talk:Simón Bolívar
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Infobox Portrait Discussion?
editThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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In the past few weeks there's been some dispute over which portrait should be used to represent Bolívar in his infobox. In order to avoid an edit war, I'd suggest proper consensus be reached here before further edits are made. Below are some candidates which have been under in contention. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
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Portrait by Francis Martin Drexel, 1827
Pros: Contemporary; made during the life of Bolívar.
Cons: Quite dark. Perhaps could do with some color correction. -
Portrait by José Gil de Castro, c. 1823
Pros: Contemporary; made during the life of Bolívar. More vibrant.
Cons: Perhaps not the most accurate depiction of Bolívar. If the aim is something more true to life, this probably isn't the best contender. -
Portrait by José Gil de Castro, 1825
Pros: More accurate to life.
Cons:Low-resolution, bad colour correction. Perhaps a better version of this portrait could be found? -
Portrait by José Toro Moreno, c. 1922
Pros: Visually pleasing, high resolution, true to life. In addition, it is perhaps the most famous depiction of Bolívar.
Cons: Not contemporary but based on contemporary works.
- 4th portrait seems to be the best option. Despite it being non-contemporary it's pretty accurate and in line with actual contemporary works. I would rule out the 1st portrait since it looks like a caricature in my opinion. Karl Krafft (talk) 03:18, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with every point of this. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 10:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- 3rd portrait I have just uploaded a much higher quality version of this image on Commons. It is among the most iconic paintings of Bolivar (and has been copied by many other painters and lithographers) which makes it well-suited for the infobox. A possible con is the full-body framing, but perhaps a crop at the waist could be made now that the resolution is higher. — Goszei (talk) 07:47, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Addendum: Does anyone have any information about these paintings: [1] [2]? They appear to be copied from some original; if that original is contemporary, it would make an excellent choice for the infobox (it's a very heroic pose). — Goszei (talk) 00:47, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- 4th portrait - Although the non-contemporary nature of it makes it not a great choice, the rest all look clunkier to me. casualdejekyll 01:56, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Prefer the other three over 4 - 4 isn't terrible, but it is best to have a contemporary portrait. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- 2nd portrait - It is a contemporary portrait and it's proportions are well suited for the infobox. Alternatively, a cropped version of 3 would be good too. Also, how can you say it is not "the most accurate depiction"? Torimem (talk) 20:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- 4th portrait - Just realized I never actually voted on the discussion I myself started. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 23:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- 4th portrait — Given that the 4th seems an accurate likeness, I think it’s main con of being non-contemporary is out weighed by its many pros. Aza24 (talk) 20:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
External links
edit- The External Links section has eleven entries. This is far above the minimum (per #3) of three or four which is usually acceptable. Sites such as Find a Grave should be used with caution and only when it is clear use of the site offers unique information not available somewhere else or that can't be used as a source. Also, YouTube should be considered with caution.
- The bottom line is that the "External links" section is in need of trimming so there is not a link farm.
- General references (currently seven links) are found on many underdeveloped articles but as the article evolves these need to be utilized with inline citations or they just become an addition to the "Further reading" section, that currently already has 14 links, which is governed by Wikipedia:External links.
- The appendices (excluding "Notes and references") do not need to be so exhaustive as to be unwieldy or violate What Wikipedia is not. -- Otr500 (talk) 23:54, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
I have gutted the relevant section and reduced it to but one link. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 05:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
mouments
editThere are monuments in the US as well, why aren't they listed? Like this one in New Orleans: https://louisianadigitallibrary.org/islandora/object/state-lhp:7656 and I work on Bolivar Street in New Orleans which is named after him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A40:5B90:1D49:A67A:1A81:CC1E (talk) 05:42, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Anyone can edit Wikipedia, feel free to add it if there is a corresponding citation and it's relevant. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 13:37, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- There is already a list of objects and places that memorialize Bolívar; naming names and places has previously size crept this article beyond reason, so I must defer your attention to List of places and things named after Simón Bolivar. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 04:04, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
"current countries"
editWhile Simon Bolivar is credited with liberating five (5) nations, the article in English fails to mention Panama -a former territory of Colombia- as one of the "current" countries led by him to independence from the Spanish Empire. In the Spanish version of the same entry, the correction has been made in a way that better reflects the extent of Bolivar's accomplishments. 2601:80:4681:5EC0:4542:5EB3:DD4C:CE54 (talk) 20:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Translations
editI saw that the Arabic version of the article is fairly comprehensive and throughly cited. Perhaps we should import some of the citations to here as well? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 06:44, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
"Simón Bolívar Day" listed at Redirects for discussion
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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Simón Bolívar Day and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 2#Simón Bolívar Day until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 13:19, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
GA Review
editThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:Simón Bolívar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Premeditated Chaos (talk · contribs) 22:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Fun and cool experiment in which Guerillero and I team up to tackle a GAN of epic proportions. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Prose review
editGoing into this with the mindset that FAC is likely. I'm going to pick on redundancy esepcially, because this is such a long article we really can't afford to add more words when we don't need them.
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Leadedit
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Return to Venezuelaedit
Politics and militaryedit
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- "Finding himself to be far more radical...property dispute..." Do we know anything more about this dispute? Did it come to anything? Did he really do nothing else for the next two years?
- Oh, the things I wanted to add about Briceño. Yes we do know about that property dispute. Briceño got so heated with Bolívar that he led an armed gang of slaves to run Bolívar's workers off the contested property. He later became one of Bolívar's early stalwarts and was so infamous during the Admirable Campaign for massacring Royalists that he was straight called "the Devil". Then he was killed in battle. Also uh Bolívar at this time hosted meetings of likeminded rich guys, but for the most part yeah he was sitting on his hands since he and his brother were the only people in Venezuela in favor of outright independence from Spain. I'll look into adding the detail of the meetings here. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 04:44, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think it might be worth adding a small amount of detail about the dispute, if possible - not many property disputes involve raids by gangs of armed slaves! It would certainly make it more obvious why he spent two years on it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
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Venezuela
edit- On re-reviewing this article, I noticed that the sub-article Military career of Simón Bolívar is about 6200 words, while the text of this entire section is ~5900 (I did a raw copy-paste so that may count captions and other crud. I won't hold the GA up over it, but if you do want to take this to FA, it may be worth trying to shift some more detail over there.
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- "a Royalist officer of the fort's garrison" - I don't get this. Did the Royalists have control of the fort before Bolivar turned up? If so, why would Miranda send him there to assume command - wouldn't that be more like "go assault it"? Or was this guy a traitor to the Republican cause?
- Closet royalist. Clarified now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:46, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- I added "loyal to the Royalists" which I think makes the officer's betrayal a little more clear. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Okay :) –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I added "loyal to the Royalists" which I think makes the officer's betrayal a little more clear. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- What's Bolivar doing arresting Miranda? Did the Royalists just welcome him back like "nbd bruh"
- I... thought it was pretty clear, even with the trimming I did to this paragraph a while back. Miranda decides that the Republic is done for and that he needs to get out of there, and agrees to terms from Monteverde. This pisses off Bolívar, who has just been besieged in his own posting and just escaped by the skin of his teeth, and other diehard Republican officers. They think Miranda's turned traitor and shown himself a coward, and a looter since he's on his way out with his bags stuffed with money and gold (why and for what is a matter of debate), and decide to send the captain down with the ship. So they ensure in a deed that has gone down in no small amount of ignominy that Miranda dies the miserable death he dies in a Spanish prison a decade or so later.
As for the Royalists and letting Bolívar go, that's a funny story I cut for brevity. So, the guy controlling La Guaira for the Republic turns Royalist and closes the port to stop other Republicans from attempting escape, but Bolívar slips the net and goes to Caracas. Everybody knows he's a firebreathing Republican so he can't stay, but he has friends on both sides and crashes on a Royalist friend's couch. Said friend arranges an audience with Monteverde to get Bolívar a passport so he can go into exile. The friend tries to spin this as Bolívar rendering service to the Crown or whatever, but Bolívar right then and there scoffs and goes "pfft imagine serving a king, how cringe", and the friend does the whole "ix nae" thing. Monteverde responds to this by going "ummm ok anyway everyone goes through these phases", dismisses Bolívar, and very much lives to regret letting him leave. The biographies relate how future mentions of the name Bolívar in Monteverde's presence caused the color to drain from his face. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:46, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's just that everything surrounding the arrest reads as Royalist. Miranda surrenders to the Royalist Monteverde, gets arrested in La Guaira which immediately declares itself Royalist, and then gets taken into Spanish custody (presumably Royalist). So it seems natural to read Bolivar and his conspirators in the same vein. I tweaked it to "treason against the republic", which to me clarifies Bolivar & co's motives a little more. Let me know how you feel. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- That works for me and is entirely accurate to my sources. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's just that everything surrounding the arrest reads as Royalist. Miranda surrenders to the Royalist Monteverde, gets arrested in La Guaira which immediately declares itself Royalist, and then gets taken into Spanish custody (presumably Royalist). So it seems natural to read Bolivar and his conspirators in the same vein. I tweaked it to "treason against the republic", which to me clarifies Bolivar & co's motives a little more. Let me know how you feel. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I... thought it was pretty clear, even with the trimming I did to this paragraph a while back. Miranda decides that the Republic is done for and that he needs to get out of there, and agrees to terms from Monteverde. This pisses off Bolívar, who has just been besieged in his own posting and just escaped by the skin of his teeth, and other diehard Republican officers. They think Miranda's turned traitor and shown himself a coward, and a looter since he's on his way out with his bags stuffed with money and gold (why and for what is a matter of debate), and decide to send the captain down with the ship. So they ensure in a deed that has gone down in no small amount of ignominy that Miranda dies the miserable death he dies in a Spanish prison a decade or so later.
New Granada
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- It is a really abrupt transition from this siege to Bolivar resigning and going into exile. Who exiled him??
- Himself. He looked over and saw his spat with del Castillo had cost the Republican cause the Magdalena and decided to go into exile. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 19:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- I made a few tweaks here to make that more clear, see what you think. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Jamaica
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- José Francisco Bermúdez - new guy who dis. I respect the extremely dry treatment of the sword incident but perhaps some more detail as to how Bolivar avoided his second bout of sudden onset adult assassinitis would be nice
- I've decided to remove the part about the sword instead. I'll just share that what happened is that Bolívar, after getting own zoned at Ocumare, got in a boat and went to Guiria to team up with Mariño. Mariño instead goes "um I'm in charge now buster fuck outta here", so Bolívar leaves. Bermúdez, an officer in Mariño's army, however, gets SO MAD at Bolívar that as he's going back to the beach to get back on his boat and go back to Haiti, barrels down there with a blade (sources disagree on if it was a knife or a sword) to stab Bolívar to death for cowardice or whatever. Bolívar's guys stop him and enable Bolívar to get back on his boat and GTFO. Anyway Bermúdez will later be one of Bolívar's best and most loyal generals. There's... an incredible amount of character to the Wars of Latin American Independence that because of wordcount and focus, I had to cut out. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 19:56, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- This is some anime shit. "I couldn't kill him, so now I must serve him." ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
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Gran Columbia
edit- How does one campaign indecisively
- I tried to find a way to say, encyclopedicly, that Bolívar spent a year spinning his tires in the mud and this was the wording. I've now removed the word "indecisively" from the relevant sentence. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- How about "albeit ineffectively"? I put that in, but take it out if you don't like it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- "to invade New Granada" why is he invading? What's his motive or goal here?
- In the previous section's final paragraph, I stated that Morillo had subjugated New Granada. So Bolívar was going over the Andes to un-subjugate New Granada. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- Ah yup this was just me being a dumbass sorry ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
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- "Zea had been replaced as vice president in September 1819 by Arismendi, who was conspiring with Mariño against Urdaneta and Bermúdez" Same as above, some of this doesn't seem to come up again. Arismendi is never mentioned again after this, and the conspiracy doesn't seem to reappear.
- The conspiracy doesn't return because Bolívar nipped it in the bud. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:45, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
- I replaced "restored order" with "defused the plot" - it's a little more specific to what's going on. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Ecuador
edit- I might split this whole section up as it's quite long
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- " In May 1824, after learning of a rebellion [es] against the Viceroy, José de la Serna, by conservative Royalist Pedro Antonio Olañeta, Bolívar advanced and then defeated Canterac at the Battle of Junín on 6 August." The two clauses of this sentence don't seem to go together. What does defeating Canterac have to do with Olaneta rebelling? I tweaked the sentence anyway for clarity but it's going to need some more context.
- I have readjusted this bit to make it clearer. I think what this part needed was not more context, but better presentation. Olañeta thought La Serna was a liberal pansy who was intentionally losing the war, so he declared his command to be independent and, thus, in rebellion to the Viceroy. La Serna knew he had bigger fish to fry with Bolívar breathing down his neck and decided not to split his forces. Olañeta, however, is important and worth mentioning even if his reasons aren't because he refused to surrender and lasted until Sucre liberated Bolivia. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- I reworded this and noodled the paragraph division a bit. Thoughts? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
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- "but neither nation's congress accepted his resignation" - hold on, how? Did they not just fire him?
- "that was managed by Simón Rodríguez" - who? And since he doesn't seem to be mentioned again, does it matter? For the wordage, I think you might get better mileage out of putting in another example of a failed policy. (And why did they keep failing?)
- Just for the record: Simón Rodríguez was arguably Bolívar's most important tutor, and he was even present when Bolívar took the oath in the Mons Sacer in Rome. He's a quite prominent character in Venezuelan history, even being in high denomination banknotes twice, although the text might not give that impression in the text and, after all, the article is about Bolívar. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- I already introduced Rodríguez, wayyyy back in Bolívar's youth. I used his full name here because it had been so long since I had last mentioned him. As for the failure of his reforms, well, that was a lot of Bolívar going "indigenous people are people too" and passing laws to that effect, and then the very racist ruling class and officials in Peru just not carrying them out. There was a lot of Bolívar cruising into a town, saying and doing something, and then the townspeople going "ok cool thanks anyway" as soon as he left. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 07:14, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, you did indeed. That was my poor memory after reading the article in big chunks over a few weeks. I still think it might be worth giving a little more information about his failed reforms, but I won't push it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
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Final years
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- "when Bolívar's allies staged a walkout that left Colombia without a constitution" why?
- The walkout left the convention without the quorum needed to approve the constitution. If you're asking about the motives, I understand this was done in order for Bolívar to stay in power, instead of Santander. Again, Vami might be able to correct me if I'm mistaken. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:59, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- This is correct. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 23:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- Clarified. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 23:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- I made some alterations, see what you think. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- The walkout left the convention without the quorum needed to approve the constitution. If you're asking about the motives, I understand this was done in order for Bolívar to stay in power, instead of Santander. Again, Vami might be able to correct me if I'm mistaken. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:59, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
- "Padilla, though uninvolved with the attempted coup, was executed" why?
- Earlier treason, and Bolívar was in a killing mood. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:59, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Tweaked to say that. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 17:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
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Death, Personal beliefs, Legacy
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Okay. At long last, the first pass is done. I'm sorry it took so long. I noticed that I often found myself asking why certain things were happening. I'm not sure if it's just me being dense (and I am, self-admittedly, somewhat dense when it comes to history as a topic) or if it's a consequence of trying to save words and glossing over things. But especially with all the flip-flopping of loyalties, it feels important to me to explain to the reader why people are doing stuff. Aside from that, my major criticism is the last few sections, which do feel like they could be increased a bit (as I noted). ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:42, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
Source review (Guerillero)editI am going to be focusing on 2a, 2b, 3a, and 4 here:
This line of questions is meant to be a conversation. I am not suggesting any actions from you. I don't think it will be needed for GA, but it will hopefully reveal things that future FA reviewers may ask. All of your dead tree sourcing is from the last 20 years except Masur (1969). (Aside: you are missing that it is the revised edition.) It has been 74 years since the first edition and 54 years since the revised edition. For any source, that is a long time. With all of the recent scholarship that you have included, I worry that the field has moved past it. In your research, does Masur's biography still hold up as well as it did when he died in 1975? Do the contemporary sources speak of it? If so, in what regard? --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 12:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
This line of questions is meant to be a conversation. I am not suggesting any actions from you. I don't think it will be needed for GA, but it will hopefully reveal things that future FA reviewers may ask. With the exception of Cardozo Uzcátegui 2011, you exclusively rely on Anglophone scholarship about Bolívar. In your research, are there any major differences between it and the Spansh-language scholarship? Are we missing anything --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 12:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Good enough for GA, but I worry about the over cite issues for FA --Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:06, 26 March 2023 (UTC) Miscedit
Additional commentaryedit
Radio Rebelde and death conspiracy theorieseditI am separating out my 28 March commentary from above, as it has not been addressed. The article says:
Right now, the article is reflecting a chavista/Cuban bias on this issue, and one that does not even accurately present what the Cuban source says. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
With ample reliable sources, there is no need to use a) biased sources, and b) primary medical sources. This article is interpreting Auwaerter's primary source work (see WP:MEDRS) rather than using secondary sources which have done that more accurately. Radio Rebelde should be completely removed, not the least because the article deals with the facial reconstruction (naturally, because they irritated most Venezuelans by digging up and cutting up their hero without finding any evidence of Chavez's conspiracy theory, so they focused instead on rebuilding Bolivar to make him look more indigenous) more than the conspiracy theories, and because reliable sources are available. The primary medical source could be used as an adjunct to what secondary sources say about it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:41, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Easter egg linkseditThe extensive use of interlanguage links (ILL) to the Spanish Wiki is most impressive and to be commended, but hiding the actual names of things/articles/battles/campaigns behind Easter-eggy links should be minimized. It's also possible via an ILL to name the article as it would be named on en.wiki (although I forget how). Generally, the Easter egg links could be minimized throughout (not just on ILLs). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:04, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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