Left guide

Carmelopedia

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Greghenderson2006 ugh.. Graywalls (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls: yeah I've been keeping an eye every now and then. Left guide (talk) 20:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls, Netherzone, and Star Mississippi: He's edit-warring the infobox back into his mother's category page at Commons; do you think this should be raised at the Commons ANI? I'm also starting to wonder if global sanctions may be necessary, but I don't know how that process works. Left guide (talk) 13:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I'm not sure beyond socks which are a button click. Do we know any commons or simple admins to ask? Thanks for flagging @Left guide Star Mississippi 13:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi: Thanks for the prompt response. Well here is the list of Commons admins, it looks like some are also admins here on en.wiki. Do you feel comfortable asking any of them to look into this? Left guide (talk) 13:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Happy to, but about to hop offline. I can do it when I'm back this weekend. Or you can do so citing this if you don't think it should wait. No preference Star Mississippi 14:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi: Alright thanks, enjoy your time offline. Left guide (talk) 14:14, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If it is helpful to you, here is the old AfD for Patricia Ford Crass: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Patricia Ford Crass. I think all these personal family genealogies should go, but am unfamiliar policy-wise on Commons. I don't know how things work that well on Commons (other than being able to upload copyright free or one's one images).

On a similar but related note, I recently submitted some obvious copyvio images that are not the COI/UPE uploader's work who is one of two editors who created a walled garden on the Munsi/Munshi family here on WP; (the noms seem to be stalled, I think). Not certain if it is because I made an error in the noms or what. Commons confuses me to no end, even though I am a visual person. Netherzone (talk) 14:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not unusual for things to take weeks or months over there. Things run on a different pace there. Graywalls (talk) 19:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Ymblanter @Stifle I see that you're commons admins. Any suggestions on how to handle the above? If you're not familiar, Greghenderson2006 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was site blocked here as a result of Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1163#h-Topic_Ban_or_Site_Block,_Greghenderson2006-20240804213000 as article space blocks did't work. He appears to have moved his family promotion to Commons (the article here was deleted). I don't edit commons. Any suggestions on the best next course of action? Thanks and let me know if this should move somewhere. cc @Graywalls @Netherzone Star Mississippi 22:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Yamla I don't think you're a Commons admin, but any thoughts on the above given the unblock you just declined. I know very little about Simple and Commons and how best to proceed, but I don't think another 11.5 months of this is viable. Thoughts or suggestions? Thanks! Star Mississippi 22:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi and Netherzone:, Greg's use of Commons as some sort of place to port out his Hendersonfamilytree Family Tree is something that's been going on in parallel with COI editing here, but not a new behavior. Resuming Carmelopedia on Simple English Wikipedia does look like littering elsewhere after being told he can't litter here. Graywalls (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm only an admin here. I must admit, I'm unsure what the best course of action is. We could ask for a global block, but I'm not personally familiar with the exact process for that. I'm also not indicating that's the right course of action in this case. --Yamla (talk) 22:58, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Yamla. I'm much in the same boat. @Graywalls @Left guide I'll see if I can do some digging in my limited time here. If you find an answer, please proceed without me as I'm in support of whatever the solution is. (I looked at https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:ListUsers/sysop and the only editor there I'm familiar with is Vermont). Thanks all! Star Mississippi 23:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I was under the impression that only a steward can do a global block. But I may be incorrect (and am not an admin so please take this with a grain of salt.) Netherzone (talk) 23:10, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm honestly entirely unfamiliar with that process so I was grasping at straws @Netherzone. I may well be wrong. Star Mississippi 23:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I just had a look at WP:GLOBALBLOCK, it does seem to be a task requiring a steward.

Holy Mackerel, the time sink continues... Netherzone (talk) 23:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Just to acknowledge that I have read this and I am researching the situation. We apparently have a Wikidata problem as well, but I am also a Wikidata admin. I will come back asap. Ymblanter (talk) 06:53, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

After a quick look: They have built an (extensive) walled garden of interconnected items on Wikidata, and I managed to delete two of them (the problem was to remove backlinks), and I nominated two more for deletion. I guess eventually this will be cleaned up, but Wikidata block does not seem to be an option for the time being, since they are doing some good stuff there as well. Only if they start recreating the items it would be seen as problematic. Commons is similar, they upload files there which are mostly fine, and I will probably nominate some for deletion, but so far I do not see anything in their behavior there that would justify a block, certainly without prior warnings. I will continue monitoring the situation. Ymblanter (talk) 07:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Ymblanter. Left guide (talk) 07:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

What warning is even needed? See this: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_deletion/Requests/2024/Cary_Stith_Cox Greg went and created an article on Simple English Wikipedia after it had been deleted from English Wikipedia/here on notability ground. I think bad faith advertorial intentions are made very clear by that. If someone receives a warning for littering in middle of the road, they don't deserve another warning for littering on the side of the road and I see how this isn't anything but that. WP:NOTHERE is very obvious. Intentions are to promote Henderson Family and bolster Carmel/Monterey/California stuff, most notably buildings and people. Graywalls (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Cary Stith Cox is one of Henderson's relatives according to his family tree, so he's starting at the beginning again, with family history on simple-wikipedia. On Spanish WP already started to edit on Carmel. It's like Whack-a-Mole without socks! Netherzone (talk) 03:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

FYI: Meta:Global bans — AP 499D25 (talk) 10:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been away a little while. Is this still an open issue, and if so can I get a short summary of what's needed? Stifle (talk) 09:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@Stifle: It's been taken care of by another admin, thanks for checking. Left guide (talk) 09:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

PRODding and AFDing Carmelopedia contents

I think it's important to consider that PRODs are a soft delete, so there's a real possibility that a certain individual could start editing again and that person could request WP:REFUND on all of them asking for them to restored while a proper consensus to delete by AfD is more robust and shameless re-creation of non-notable items can be easily wiped away by WP:G4. So perhaps maybe a list of very similar non-notable Carmel-by-the-Sea common houses (houses/buildings in one list) and common people/people in another list, then do a bundled AfD to ensure more sturdier deletion? Graywalls (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls - That sounds like a good strategy for several of the articles. I've been trying to focus on improving notable, or marginally notable articles by trimming them of puffery and fluff and some of the poor sourcing (not all the sources yet, as this is an ginormous task). Feel free to AfD any of the ones I've worked on. @Left guide has been tirelessly working on redirects, in particular the non-notable buildings, a huge and thankless task. What are your thoughts about redirects? Keep them or AfD instead?

It also occurred to me that it might be useful to identify the center of each walled garden so we might work on things systematically. IMHO, the Carmel Pine Cone is a central hub with over a thousand spokes in the wheel radiating outward. I'm not sure that the Pine Cone itself even meets WP:NCORP, since it does not seem to meet notability criteria for newspapers, and probably also does not meet GNG. Other mini-walled gardens are the Sargent articles, the Forest Theater articles, the pilot boat + captain articles in addition to the family articles and the Carmel/Monterey articles. A LOT to sort through, and check the sources for accuracy and reliability! Netherzone (talk) 21:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls and Netherzone: Thanks for the feedback and moral support, as well as ongoing cleanup assistance at the articles. A few thoughts for now, and I'll try to keep it as coherent and brief as possible:

• First off, if either of you wishes to revert sets of my redirects and open a bundled AfD in lieu, you have my blessing, totally fine. I'm mostly redirecting for the sake of efficiency to spare myself and others time; 400+ articles is a lot to work through.
• As for Netherzone's comment about walled gardens, I've actually been referring to the navbox templates like {{List of historic buildings in Carmel-by-the-Sea}} (and to a lesser extent categories) as a "hub" for these walled gardens, and generally within any one garden is an essentially identical set of sources (i.e. Valley, Arcadia, and Pine Cone is a ubiquitous combination) being spammed en masse, so it's remarkably easy to judge their notability in rapid-fire fashion and go on redirect runs accordingly, especially as someone who witnessed and participated in several of those source discussions at talk pages and RSN.
• I also tend to have a hard time judging notability for articles with more than about 25 unique references, so I've mainly been ignoring those or simply whittling poorly-sourced material piecemeal. If either or both of you are willing to take on larger possibly ref-bombed articles, it would be very helpful.
• Pilot boats is one key area I haven't touched at all since I don't have much prior familiarity with the sources or subject matter. Additional insights on the main sources being used in that walled garden would also be helpful.

Left guide (talk) 00:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

redirects are no biggies since it can be undone/redone whenever and it doesn't take any time from anyone else. I just have this feeling that if and when the Carmelopedia editor comes back, he's gonna try to WP:REFUND all the PRODs. So, if we can compile a list of things that's beyond salvage somewhere (perhaps here?) then send them ALL to a bundle AfD, that helps save community time over doing multiple AfDs. Graywalls (talk) 02:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls: I'm totally cool with having some discussions here, but I'd prefer not to have my talk page morph into a database or scoreboard of what is to be done with all 400+ individual articles. Perhaps we can start our own centralized "noticeboard" at something like WP:Carmelopedia. cc @Netherzone: Left guide (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide:, Maybe we can do list building and discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_California and do it similar to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/James_D._M._Beebe. I think limiting each nomination to 10 bundled per nom would strike a good balance between overly repetitive and too many at once. Graywalls (talk) 02:39, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you think it might get messy in such a large arena like WikiProject California, it takes a lot of explaining and time to fill people in on the long backstory, for example:Talk:List of historic buildings in Carmel-by-the-Sea.

How about the talk page for Carmel-by-the-Sea, California to start? Or how about here: Wikipedia talk:Walled garden? Not sure if these suggestions are helpful... Netherzone (talk) 02:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no preference really. The only thing is we shouldn't drain too much of AfD volunteer time and should pre-coordinate things to minimize wasting their time by pre-baking the list before sending to AfD. Many of Carmelopedia entries do need a purge, but there's no rush, so, we can take our time. Graywalls (talk) 02:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls and Netherzone: I don't think coordinating this in the main Cali project is a good idea; in my opinion, that would unduly detract from the scope and focus of that project. Article talk pages aren't really the best place either. I'm starting a new task force at WP:WikiProject California/Carmel cleanup task force with shortcut WP:CARMEL. Left guide (talk) 03:07, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

That's brilliant! Netherzone (talk) 03:13, 18 August 2024 (UTC)