Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section

EDITED Lead Page

Hello, fellow Wikipedians! I have revised the lead page by summarizing key points and mentioning important aspects and sections of the article itself. I noticed in this article how there was a short lead in the section, and missing depth in the information; as I have also read the conversations above. Emooshka11 (talk) 04:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

No, you just vandalized the page by replacing part of it with sociology content. I reverted your change. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:37, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I apologize, but I don't understand. The article stated the lead page needed revision as there was a short summary. How do I edit without vandalizing? I do not see what I have done wrong here, as I am simply confused. Emooshka11 (talk) 19:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Emooshka11, you edited the Manual of Style page to write about sociology. Look at your edit and compare it to the current page. Does that help you understand that you edited the wrong page? Schazjmd (talk) 19:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Hi Emooshka11. I see that you are a student editor. This can all be very confusing for newbies here. I don't think you deliberately "vandalized" the page, but that was the effect. You deleted existing content and replaced it with a bunch of stuff about sociology. The WP:Manual of Style is not a Wikipedia article, but instructions for editors. It isn't about sociology. Maybe you accidentally copy-pasted the stuff in there? That can happen. You had just edited the History of sociology article, and maybe that stuff was on your clipboard and you accidentally left it here.

You need to constantly click that "history" tab to see what you have done, whether the result is what you intended, and any reactions to what you did. People will respond and leave edit summaries there. Try it now. Open the "project page" tab and look at its "history". Click on any relevant links (they are called "diffs" by editors). You will see your edit and my response. Then return here and respond to my comments here. I'll be happy to guide you through this. It's pretty overwhelming in the beginning. I have taught a college class about editing Wikipedia. During an assignment I gave the class, a group of girls got together and managed to use WP:Wikilinks to get far afield from what I intended. They got from the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (1940), to engineering, to the engineering involved in bra design. That involved breasts, leading them to discover the huge amount of uncensored porn at Wikipedia. Their laughter alerted me to what was going on. We all got a good laugh.

BTW, I have written an essay about "lead": How to create and manage a good lead section (a how-to guide). An article's lead is a sensitive matter. Generally, no significant changes should be made to the lead unless there is a genuine need for it. That can occur when the body of the article has been enlarged or significantly changed. Changing a lead often requires quite a bit of knowledge about the whole article. Therefore, it's better to work on the body, rather than change the lead, at least while you are a newbie. Of course, minor copy edits to improve the grammar, spelling, and punctuation in the lead are always welcome. That doesn't change the lead's summary of the whole article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Citizenship in the lede

We are having a debate on Talk:Stevie Wonder#Citizenship over his newly acquired dual citizenship status. It doesn't seem as though there is a standard to go by on how to refer to a person with dual citizenship; for instance Tina Turner lived in Switzerland for many years, yet she was not referred to as "American-Swiss". Also, Tom Hanks is American-Greek and this is not reflected in the lede. The infoboxes of these articles do point out additional citizenships, and I made sure this was the case on Stevie Wonder. However, several editors insist that his dual citizenship status must be mentioned in the lede despite him being an American citizen for almost the entirety of his life. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

MOS:LEADLANG

Thoughts on adding the proposed sentence (shown below in bold so editors can readily see the change):

Do not include foreign equivalents in the text of the lead sentence for alternative names or for particularly lengthy names, as this clutters the lead sentence and impairs readability. Do not include foreign equivalents in the lead sentence just to show etymology. Do not include in the text of the lead foreign equivalents written in non-Roman script, as this is unhelpful to the non-specialist reader. Foreign-language names should be moved to a footnote or elsewhere in the article if they would otherwise clutter the first sentence.

Some examples where non-Roman script provides clutter to all readers, but probably helps only a very tiny minority of readers:

• Districts (Sinhala: දිස්ත්‍රි‌ක්‌ක, romanized: Distrikka, Tamil: மாவட்டம், romanized: Māvaṭṭam) are the second level administrative divisions of Sri Lanka, preceded by provinces.
• The Pakistan Institute of Development Economics (also known as PIDE) ( ‏‎پاکستان دانشگاہِ ترقیاتی معاشیات) is a post-graduate research institute and a public policy think tank located in the vicinity of Islamabad, Pakistan.

These would be better as footnotes or moved elsewhere in the article, and not in the text of the lead. Thoughts? CUA 27 (talk) 20:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Checking to see if anyone wants to weigh in? CUA 27 (talk) 12:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this change is necessary. There is nothing wrong with having a fairly short expression in another script in the lead sentence. Excessive cases are to be avoided, but that's common sense and doesn't need a particular rule. Plus the rule against clutter is already there. Gawaon (talk) 12:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if there's a way to put these in an infobox instead. There's nothing inherently wrong with giving the name of a city in all the official/practical local scripts, but I don't necessarily want to see more than one or two in the first sentence itself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Worth implementing short description guidance, e.g. WP:SDNONE?

While the mobile apps continue to terrorize the world by not making this at all visible to anyone using them, WP:SDNONE is effectively treated like a MOS guideline: we should probably mention it briefly, right? Remsense诉 20:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Guideline on citations in the lede

This guideline is a horrible idea. It radically decreases transparency and greatly weakens the verifiability requirement. Editors and readers are expected to either just trust the implicit anonymous claim that every single assertion found in the lede is sourced somewhere in the article, or else read the entire article, which may be very long, just to find where the claim in question and its sourcing could possibly be located. This makes verification far more difficult than under normal circumstances. Given how often unsourced information is added, incorrect conclusions are made from sources, sources are misrepresented (unconsciously or not) or are unreliable, making part of the article - and the most prominent and important one to boot! - extremely difficult to verify is a horrible idea. The benefit is unclear - adding a few citations in the lede, even if they are also found in the body of the article, is not difficult and does not harm readability significantly - and certainly can't compensate for the harm caused. 'Just trust us, it's there somewhere' is an unacceptable principle for an encyclopedia whose articles are produced collectively and anonymously.

Locating the source might be easier when there is an editor that monitors the article constantly, is very familiar with its content and structure and can point the user demanding a citation to the right place in the article body. This may be the true in some cases, but it normally isn't and our official guidelines cannot be based on the assumption that it always is. It also requires the user who placed the tag to take the extra steps of coming back to the article and having a conversation with the editor in question before they can even check whether the source is reliable and says what it is cited for, and the user cannot be reasonably expected to do that each time. Anonymous44 (talk) 12:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't feel similarly about this guideline, but I do note that inexperienced editors will frequently add new information (sometimes cited) directly to the lead rather than under a more appropriate subheading, possibly because the "edit lead section" icon is so prominent in comparison to the rest. By consequence, in practice this guideline is rarely followed except at well-established and stable articles. Folly Mox (talk) 14:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The lead is meant to be a summary of the rest of the article. If it has its own citations and referecing, the possibilities of original research and/or synthesis increase 10 fold. But as FM says above, this is a rather "late-stage" guideline, which (in practice) is really only applied to rather well written articles. – Aza24 (talk) 18:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I disagree totally, echoing points above. Moreover, contrary to your vibe check, when this guideline is actually considered or enforced, it only ever makes articles better. To me, it's not really under question that summary paragraphs of cited material do not require their own inline citations. I will also insist that a requirement would mostly result in lazy, less helpful, distracting, and misleading citations. Moreover, it would result in worse prose, as editors would be more likely just to copy-paste to ensure their summary doesn't need to grab citations from anywhere else in the article.

Think about it like this: when this guideline is invoked, it has the effect of making editors look the lead over, and reconsider how well it represents the article as a whole. A much better article usually results from this. Remsense诉 07:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Remsense here. Something that's in the lead without being expanded upon (and sourced) in the body can usually be challenged and removed on that reason alone. The lead is meant to be a summary of the main points of the body, therefore in theory it would never need any references of its own (direct quotes exempted). Gawaon (talk) 09:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

when this guideline is actually considered or enforced

I think this is exactly what's wrong with MOS:CITELEAD. This guideline has never even been read by anyone, nevermind actually being considered or enforced. If anyone did read it, they'd notice it says the exact opposite of what everyone linking to it claims:

The lead must conform to verifiability,[...] "all quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it". [...] There is no exception to citation requirements specific to leads.[...] The presence of citations in the lead is [not] prohibited in any article.

Here's what everyone linking to it claims it does:

1. Removes the need for inline citations
2. Makes exception to the citation requirement specific to leads
3. Prohibits the presence of citations in the lead

Frankly I'm fine with throwing out the current policy. I'm also cool with keeping the policy as written and telling people who think references are ugly that this plugin exists.

But after having one GAN rejected for uncited claims in the lead, and a renomination rejected for citing these claims, I'll go ahead and say the current policy is awfully-written and unclear. I've removed the weird parts of the policy that subtly imply you should remove references (without ever outright stating this). If someone wants to open an RfC to get consensus on changing this, please go ahead and be my guest. Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 01:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea why you think that other people just don't see where it plainly says direct quotations et al. in the lead still require inline citation. Your GAN got rejected either because the review was incompetent or because the lead just didn't do its job of summarizing the body with nothing more. To proclaim based on that experience that nobody else understands what this guideline plainly says and does not say is specious and insulting. Remsense ‥ 论 02:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

In re the (intentionally hyperbolic) statement that This guideline has never even been read by anyone: section-specific shortcuts are getting about 250 page views per month, which suggests some interest in its contents.

My own experience is that the line about Although the presence of citations in the lead is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article is frequently followed by a paragraph or to that amounts to so you are required to do it my way.

The questions I asked below are relevant. Specifically: If the material in question "must include an inline citation", and that material appears in more than one place, is that material required to have an inline citation in each location? Or is once enough? And if once is enough, does it have to be the first?

For example: I might someday clean up the slightly self-contradictory information in Cancer about risk factors. The article should say (in some form) that most cancers and most cancer deaths are not actually preventable by individuals. That is: About 40% of the (significant) cancers being diagnosed today could have been prevented through lifestyle changes, and the first, second, and third most important lifestyle changes are "Stop smoking already", "No, really, smoking kills", and "You moron, I told you not to smoke". This one risk factor is half of the individually preventable 40% of cancers. So if you're a lifelong non-smoker, and you get cancer, there's a ~67% chance that there was nothing you could do to prevent it. Maybe others (e.g., pollution regulators) could have prevented it, but the odds are that there was nothing you could have done as an individual. Smoking is three times as bad as obesity, four times as bad as moderate alcohol consumption, etc. If you are (or were) a smoker, and you get diagnosed with cancer, there's a 25% that the cancer was caused by smoking.

Something about risk factors should be in the lead, and it should actually say that most cancers can't be prevented through lifestyle changes. This is, in my experience, very surprising to people. My friends are all convinced that not eating enough fruits and vegetables is the #1 cause of cancer, and it's just not true. So I consider this Wikipedia:Likely to be challenged, and it will be cited. But: If the lead says "Most cancers can't be prevented through lifestyle changes", and the article has a whole section, with "twenty-seven 8-by-10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, to be used as evidence", does the article also need to have some of those citations duplicated up in the lead?

LEADCITE doesn't answer that question either way. LEADCITE says stuff has to be cited, but it doesn't say that the stuff has to be cited repeatedly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps these questions would help:

1. As a general rule, do you personally believe that if the same facts appear multiple times in the same article, they should be cited every time (e.g., copy/paste the same ref to the end of each sentence), or do you personally believe that once is usually enough?
2. WP:BLP requires an inline citation for contentious matter about living people. If contentious matter about a BLP appears in both the lead and also in the body (a very common situation), do you believe that it should be cited in both places, or is once usually enough?
3. WP:V requires require an inline citation for direct quotations. If the quotation appears both in the lead and also in the body (a rare situation), do you believe that it should be cited in both places, or is once usually enough?
4. If once is usually enough, should that once be the "first" mention (e.g., lead) or the "biggest" mention (e.g., a whole section)?

WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:35, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't care as long as we pick one and stick to it consistently, or just clearly and explicitly state that this is up to whoever creates the article and can't be changed (just like current WP:CITEVAR policy).

Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 01:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

You might be looking for WP:STYLEVAR, which is the generic version for style questions. CITEVAR allows changes (you just need to have a quick chat on the talk page, to make sure nobody will be mad about it). I haven't looked at STYLEVAR in years, but I assume it's a similar approach. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

In practice, if there are already citations in the lead, other editors are unlikely to remove them – why should they bother? In that sense, the first person to write a proper lead (not necessary the first article author) might have a good say in actually getting them added to the existing lead text. However, this cannot extend as far as making a requirement that newly added or significantly rewritten lead paragraphs must be referenced as well. Consider this case (fairly typical in my experience): There's a long and detailed section with 37 references. In the lead it's summarized in just one sentence, or at most a paragraph. So how should we reference that one? Repeating all 37 refs would clearly be excessive and make the lead much less readable, but cutting it down to just 2 or 3, while still getting everything mentioned properly referenced, would at least require detailed knowledge of all the references, and might in many cases be simply impossible. So "here's the summary, see below for details and references" is the most feasible solution in such cases. It's a good thing that CITELEAD allows this, and no first or other editor should be able to forbid it. Gawaon (talk) 06:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I usually would remove them if they're clearly tacked on by a third-party editor who thought they were needed, or are of clearly lower quality than those actually citing the material in the body being summarized. Remsense ‥ 论 06:43, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Same here. I routinely remove them, especially when they are of poorer quality than the sources in the article body. If it isn't in the body then it cannot be in the lead. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• The guideline waffles and ultimately ducks the issue by saying "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus." So, there's clearly no hard rule and the OP's point is moot.

Myself, I usually start articles as small stubs and don't create a summary lead until the size of the article seems to warrant one. Citations will therefore appear throughout.

As a related point, note that Wikipedia's main page, which is its primary showcase, never has any citations at all. They are obviously not essential. What matters more is that the statements are accurate and correct. But even, so there's still a disclaimer on that and every page which emphatically advises the reader that Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here.

Andrew🐉(talk) 09:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)