Slatersteven

Archives (Index)

s/2016/December s/2017/January s/2017/February s/2017/March s/2017/April s/2017/May s/2017/June s/2017/July s/2017/August s/2017/September s/2017/October s/2017/November s/2017/December s/2018/January s/2018/February s/2018/March s/2018/April s/2018/May s/2018/June s/2018/July s/2018/August s/2018/September s/2018/October s/2018/November s/2018/December s/2019/January 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 s/ 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

This page is archived by ClueBot III.

The Bugle: Issue CL, October 2018

Your Military History Newsletter Project news: From the editors; awards and honours; contest results Articles: Last month's new featured and A-class content Book review: Nick-D looks at the use of so-called "substandard" manpower in armies Interview: On the Bugle turning 150 (issues that is!) Op-ed: TomStar81 on the collapse of empires at the close of World War I Timeline: This month in World War I

The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here.
If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 07:01, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Deep state section that you are editing is case of WP:CIR

Please dont be incompetent and require from users to spell out sources that are already given, and read them yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStefanWolf (talk • contribs) 09:50, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Saying "some one may think there is something" is not the same as saying "there is something". And I have asked you to stop making PA's.Slatersteven (talk) 09:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

There are given examples, you would know that if you actually read the sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStefanWolf (talk • contribs) 09:56, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Given examples of what? Of the fact that some members of Donnies own staff are working against him, that is not the deep state. The fact that Uscinski has claimed there is (possibly) some kickback against the White House from bureaucrats is not proof of a deep state, read wp:or. A suspicion that there is a deep state held by Donnie or his supporters is not proof there is a deep state. You have to have a source that say "there is a deep state".Slatersteven (talk) 10:04, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

We cant have discussion when you did not read. Erdogan coup and subsequent firings of thousands of military, education,etc personnel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStefanWolf (talk • contribs) 10:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Again read wp:or, it does not matter what some leader does, what matters is what RS say. Just because Hitler, Stalin or Teresa May arrest, sack or kill a lot of people does not prove there is a deep state.Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Right so coup may or may have not happened? Lmao, like there are not countless headlines about that coup. Sad — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStefanWolf (talk • contribs) 10:23, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

No it means that you do not have a source saying is. It means that not all Coups are Deep state operations (and no all accusations of Claims of Coups are real). It means you need an RS actually saying "there was a deep state conspiracy".Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Hahaha dear god, then what was military coup ? All sources define it as entrenched bureaucracy, most commonly in military and intelligence community.

A military coup may not always be from an entrenched bureaucracy, the Qaddafi and Greek ones were not. And also there has been no coup in the USA, so talking about coups tells us nothing about the USA. Please read wp:Synthasis.Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

We are talking about specific coup, not Greek or Qaddafi. Also term deep state is not from USA and does not only apply to them, nor do they get to define it since it was well known and used before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStefanWolf (talk • contribs) 10:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I though we were talking about Donnie and the USA, that is what was being talked about on the article talk page.Slatersteven (talk) 10:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

? We obviously cant talk about such important and relevant term through lenses of single country at single point in time, for which there is hardly consensus even within the country.MrStefanWolf (talk) 10:53, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

When we are talking about a situation in one country we cannot use what happened in another as proof of the situation in the first country. Not all Coups are the same, and what happens in a coup is not evidence of what happens when there is not one.Slatersteven (talk)

Point is we cant use loose definition(for which there is no consensus as shown in sources, sources notably point to definition I am using)of single country for entire term. Term Deep State cant and wont only refer to USA situation, especially since it does not even originate from that country. If you want to argue that Donald Trump is peddling conspiracies thats on you, but you cant use term that is well known and defined beforehand.MrStefanWolf (talk) 11:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

We are not we are saying he has.Slatersteven (talk) 11:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Ohh and by the way, read wp:CIR and then justify your accusation.Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

You are firmly left wing Labour supporter with obvious disdain of Donald Trump and are willing to hijack term Deep State so you can attack him.I thought that was clear already. MrStefanWolf (talk) 11:35, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

That is not what a COI is on Wikipedia, And I did not hijack the term, I neither added it to the article, not am I any of the RS that use in in the context we are disusing.Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Note I pointed to the wrong policy, it should be wp:COI.Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok its not your direct fault but still. RS use definiton I use and you ask me to provide sources(they are already given). That i think falls into competency issue, being able to read with understanding.MrStefanWolf (talk) 11:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I asked you to provide a source that directly said it, you did not. None of the sources you provided say that the definition of deep state we say is in use is wrong. What they do (at best) is provide an alternative definition (anbd some do not even do that, they actually talk about Donnies belief in a deep state). You need sources that explicitly (not implicitly) say that the definition we list is wrong.Slatersteven (talk) 11:56, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Rolling Stone - "Is there actually a deep state? If you mean entrenched bureaucracy, then of course there is" - Also definition you give at best only refers to current meaning of term in USA in limited circles of conservatives (not consensus among all conservatives, let alone USA), not in the world and not through history. No where it states that in article but sources are clear, its just blanked used in article and can be assumed that it applies to entire world.Again reading carefully and with understanding is critical.MrStefanWolf (talk) 12:09, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

That does not say the other definitions are wrong, it says that in on e context it is valid. In fact this does not even say this is a deep state, only that if you mean it in this context it is real (if you mean it in this way).Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Article needs to make it clear that it only applies to limited conservative circles without consensus among USA conservatives, let alone entire USA. It also needs clearly to differentiate it from actual deep states that are proven, like military coup in Turkey 2016 cause sources given do. Meaning in that way is consensus Steven even in sources, then they go on to give it different meaning used by some. Clear differentiation needs to be made.MrStefanWolf (talk) 12:23, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

A dictator claiming a coup was part of some deep state conspiracy is not proof there was in fact a deep state conspiracy. You need RS saying that there was (in fact) a deep state conspiracy (note saying it was one, not saying it has been called one).Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Fine dont put Erdogan, everything else still stands.MrStefanWolf (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

You have provide no sources that say there are actual deep states that are proven, what you have a sources that say that if you take deep state to mean something other then a "a government-wide conspiracy" then there may indeed be such things. The Conmsproicy article is talking about "government wide conspiracies".Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Nope, it only says coordinated effort, does not mention a single thing of how narrow or wide. It could be 2 bureaucrats as far as I know according to article.MrStefanWolf (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I was referencing the rolling stone source, As I said it does not contradict anything we say (and I note the first line of the paragraph "Occasionally used as a neutral term to denote a nation's bureaucracy", so yes we do point out is is sometimes used in the way you describe). We make it clear we are talking about "the conspiratorial notion of a "deep state"".Slatersteven (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I still have massive problems with entire section. Its not occasionally, it is generally used in that way. On topic of you using US definitions from magazines, I looked up Deep State in United States article which is lot better than deep state section in conspiracy theories and kinda seems redundant cause they define what that term means in USA, so should not that section focus on world understanding ? Quote from article - In The Concealment of the State, Professor Jason Royce Lindsey argues that even without a conspiratorial agenda, the term deep state is useful for understanding aspects of the national security establishment in developed countries, with emphasis on the United States. Lindsey writes that the deep state draws power from the national security and intelligence communities, a realm where secrecy is a source of power.[8] Alfred W. McCoy states that the increase in the power of the U.S. intelligence community since the September 11 attacks "has built a fourth branch of the U.S. government" that is "in many ways autonomous from the executive, and increasingly so."[9]MrStefanWolf (talk) 15:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

No because the article (and thus the section) is about conspiracy theories. As such it should really concentrate on that part of the deep state concept, not a wider discussion as to deep state as a political term.Slatersteven (talk) 15:40, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

It is still wrong tho, even in conspiratorial sense Geoff Nunberg described it lot better what it means in conservative circles (I still hold definition you give wrong). It's an elastic label — depending on the occasion, it can encompass the Justice Department, the intelligence communities, the FISA courts, the Democrats and the media. In short, it's a cabal of unelected leftist officials lodged deep in the government who are conspiring to thwart the administration's policies, discredit its supporters and ultimately even overturn Trump's election. He is given as source on Deep State in United Stateshttps://www.npr.org/2018/08/09/633019635/opinion-why-the-term-deep-state-speaks-to-conspiracy-theorists. MrStefanWolf (talk) 15:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

talk page watcher@MrStefanWolf: as you're new here I'd suggest you review WP:STICK and then put yours down before you face a consequence worse than a WP:TROUT Simonm223 (talk) 15:57, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you and your college to read Deep State in United States and then read deep state in conspiracy theory and review and correct obvious contradictions cause I wont be intimidated. MrStefanWolf (talk) 16:01, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

He is not my colleague and this kind of attitude is going to go down badly. I would advise you to message the only user who so far has shown you any sympathy and ask him (or ask him to suggest someone) who can mentor you. At the rate you are going you are going to get a block.Slatersteven (talk) 16:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

They why is he on your page hurling threats ? Me and you are having discussion and unless he wants to be constructive mind his own business.You is not obliged to respond to me if I am bothering you. MrStefanWolf (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Also Steven your leftwing bias is disgusting and should be ashamed of your self, but you wont cause 80 percent of editors here have it, which is just sad for this site. Its obvious you want to keep section and not correct it case you hate Trump. I will leave you old fart too it, you can keep pushing your agenda, like i give a fuck if I get banMrStefanWolf (talk) 16:18, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd suggest you also read WP:NPA - because buddy, you're heading fast from "don't want to WP:BITE" to "block for WP:NOTHERE" at this rate. Simonm223 (talk) 16:37, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

ANI notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. (it wasn't me) Kleuske (talk) 10:56, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Immigration and crime

What are you talking about? And where is your evidence of forum shopping? You wrote "search in goggle for "links between the immigration crisis and Germans racist past"... How on earth do you think I found the references in the first place? (apart from the fact that I used Google, not "goggle") The fact that you don't agree that Jews can be immigrants does not make you correct, and your own efforts to improve the article have been just as quickly attacked as mine have. It would be more useful if you could explain how you propose to fix the POV issues. Deb (talk) 10:10, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I said another ed had accused of of it. As to the rest, ~ True Jews can be immigrants, but most of those killed by the Nazis were not they were Germans (or the citizens of other nations stolen form their homes, which is still not immigration, and not to Germany anyway). I have told you how to fix the POV issues, find sources that make explicit links and then repeat what they say. "according to professor X the current attitude towards immigrants represented a continuation of the attitudes expressed by the Nazi regime" or some such (sourced to professor X of course). That is how you make the point.Slatersteven (talk)

I look forward to seeing how you get on with these improvements. Deb (talk) 10:20, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I am going to leave it to you, I think you need to learn how to edit and this is a good start. Fell free to come here with any suggested edits and sources and run them past me.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

You've really brightened my day with your humour. :-))))) Deb (talk) 10:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

White privilege

Thanks for your comment, I look forward with working with you to improve the White Privilege page. Keith Johnston (talk) 13:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith

Please note the article is under these restrictions. I also made no edit warning.

• Civility restriction: Users are required to follow proper decorum during discussions and edits. Users may be sanctioned (including blocks) if they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith.

The comments are completely off topic and are of a uncivil nature, they are also completely false.

At 30:21 he states they don't use assalt weapons all the time only a quarter of the time and if they did not have those there are other weapons as equally deadly.

It has been stated on the AR Talk page that none of this is relevant to the article. "Where does he say "ar-125" or "assault rifle " (a-or any thing approximate to those). This page is about AR-15 style rifles, not mass shootings. So if a source does not explicitly talk about (at the very least) semi-auto rifles it is irrelevant to this article.Slatersteven (talk), 7 October 2018"

I would like to hear what uninvolved editors views are on any inclusion for the section in the AR-15 article for the "Use in crime and mass shootings". -72bikers (talk) 9 October 2018, Tuesday (8 days ago) (UTC−4)

It appears he is referring to your comments on denying mass shooting content. -72bikers (talk) 16:02, 17 October 2018 (UTC)