Talk:Nakba

Core sources

Works marked with an asterisk (*) are already cited in this Wikipedia article.

21st-century "classics"

Highly-cited (100s of cites) 21st-century books by highly-cited authors (and more-recent works by those same authors):

• *Morris, Benny (2004) [1988]. The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-00967-6.
  • Morris, Benny (2008). 1948: A History of the First Arab–Israeli War. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-12696-9.
• *Pappe, Ilan (2006). The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Oneworld Publications. ISBN 978-1-78074-056-0.
  • Pappé, Ilan (2020-05-01). "An Indicative Archive: Salvaging Nakba Documents". Journal of Palestine Studies. 49 (3): 22–40. doi:10.1525/jps.2020.49.3.22. ISSN 0377-919X.
  • Pappé, Ilan (2021-11-12). "Everyday Evil in Palestine: The View from Lucifer's Hill". Janus Unbound: Journal of Critical Studies. 1 (1): 70–82. doi:10.2021/ju.v1i1.2319. ISSN 2564-2154.
  • Pappe, Ilan (2022) [2004]. A History of Modern Palestine (3rd ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-108-24416-9. (TWL link)
• *Masalha, Nur (2012). The Palestine Nakba: Decolonising History, Narrating the Subaltern, Reclaiming Memory. Zed Books Ltd. ISBN 978-1-84813-973-2.
  • Masalha, Nur (2018). Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History. Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-78699-275-8.

General

21st-century academically-reviewed books:

• *Schulz, Helena Lindholm (2003). The Palestinian Diaspora: Formation of Identities and Politics of Homeland. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-26821-9.
• Shlaim, Avi (2009). Israel and Palestine: Reappraisals, Revisions, Refutations. Verso Books. ISBN 978-1-78960-165-7.
• Davis, Rochelle (2011). Palestinian Village Histories: Geographies of the Displaced. Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-0-8047-7313-3.
• Khalidi, Rashid (2020). The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017. Metropolitan Books. ISBN 978-1-62779-854-9.
• *Slater, Jerome (2020). Mythologies Without End: The US, Israel, and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1917-2020. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-045908-6.
• Manna, Adel (2022). Nakba and Survival: The Story of Palestinians Who Remained in Haifa and the Galilee, 1948-1956. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-38936-6.
• Sabbagh-Khoury, Areej (2023). Colonizing Palestine: The Zionist Left and the Making of the Palestinian Nakba. Stanford University Press. ISBN 978-1-5036-3629-3.

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

• *Forman, Geremy; Kedar, Alexandre (Sandy) (2004). "From Arab Land to 'Israel Lands': The Legal Dispossession of the Palestinians Displaced by Israel in the Wake of 1948". Environment and Planning D: Society and Space. 22 (6): 809–830. doi:10.1068/d402. ISSN 0263-7758.
• *Baumgarten, Helga (2005-07-01). "The Three Faces /Phases of Palestinian Nationalism, 1948–2005". Journal of Palestine Studies. 34 (4): 25–48. doi:10.1525/jps.2005.34.4.25. ISSN 0377-919X.
• Wolfe, Patrick (2012). "Purchase by Other Means: The Palestine Nakba and Zionism's Conquest of Economics". Settler Colonial Studies (in Arabic). 2 (1): 133–171. doi:10.1080/2201473X.2012.10648830. ISSN 2201-473X.
• *Manna', Adel (2013). "The Palestinian Nakba and its Continuous Repercussions". Israel Studies. 18 (2): 86. doi:10.2979/israelstudies.18.2.86.
• Rouhana, Nadim N.; Sabbagh-Khoury, Areej (2014). "Settler-colonial citizenship: conceptualizing the relationship between Israel and its Palestinian citizens". Settler Colonial Studies. 5 (3): 205–225. doi:10.1080/2201473X.2014.947671. ISSN 2201-473X.

Nakba in culture

21st-century academically-reviewed books:

• *Sa'di, Ahmad H.; Abu-Lughod, Lila, eds. (2007). Nakba: Palestine, 1948, and the Claims of Memory. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-13579-5.
• *Lentin, Ronit (2013). Co-memory and melancholia: Israelis memorialising the Palestinian Nakba. Manchester University Press. ISBN 978-1-84779-768-1.
• *Al-Hardan, Anaheed (5 April 2016). Palestinians in Syria: Nakba Memories of Shattered Communities. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-54122-0.
• *Nashef, Hania A.M. (2018). Palestinian Culture and the Nakba: Bearing Witness. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-351-38749-1.

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

• *Ghanim, Honaida (2009-03-01). "Poetics of Disaster: Nationalism, Gender, and Social Change Among Palestinian Poets in Israel After Nakba". International Journal of Politics, Culture, and Society. 22 (1): 23–39. doi:10.1007/s10767-009-9049-9. ISSN 1573-3416.
• Khoury, Elias (2012). "Rethinking the Nakba". Critical Inquiry. 38 (2): 250–266. doi:10.1086/662741. ISSN 0093-1896.

Nakba and genocide studies

21st-century academically-reviewed books:

• Auron, Yair (2017). The Holocaust, Rebirth, and the Nakba: Memory and Contemporary Israeli–Arab Relations. Lexington Books. ISBN 978-1-4985-5949-2.
• *Bashir, Bashir; Goldberg, Amos, eds. (2018). The Holocaust and the Nakba: A New Grammar of Trauma and History. Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-54448-1.
• *Wermenbol, Grace (2021). A Tale of Two Narratives: The Holocaust, the Nakba, and the Israeli-Palestinian Battle of Memories. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-108-84028-6. (TWL)

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

• Lustick, Ian S. (2006). "Negotiating Truth: The Holocaust, "Lehavdil", and "Al-Nakba"". Journal of International Affairs. 60 (1): 51–77. ISSN 0022-197X.
• Fierke, K.M. (2014). "Who is my neighbour? Memories of the Holocaust/ al Nakba and a global ethic of care". European Journal of International Relations. 20 (3): 787–809. doi:10.1177/1354066113497490. ISSN 1354-0661.
• Rashed, Haifa; Short, Damien; Docker, John (2014). "Nakba Memoricide: Genocide Studies and the Zionist/Israeli Genocide of Palestine". Holy Land Studies. 13 (1): 1–23. doi:10.3366/hls.2014.0076. ISSN 1474-9475.

Nakba denial / Nakba memory

21st-century well-cited academic papers/chapters:

• *Sa'di, Ahmad H. (2002). "Catastrophe, Memory and Identity: Al-Nakbah as a Component of Palestinian Identity". Israel Studies. 7 (2): 175–198. doi:10.1353/is.2002.0016. ISSN 1527-201X.
• *Webman, Esther (2009). "The Evolution of a Founding Myth: The Nakba and Its Fluctuating Meaning". In Litvak, Meir (ed.). Palestinian Collective Memory and National Identity. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-230-62163-3.
• Milshtein, Michael (2009). "The Memory that Never Dies: The Nakba Memory and the Palestinian National Movement". In Litvak, Meir (ed.). Palestinian Collective Memory and National Identity. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-230-62163-3.
• Ram, Uri (2009). "Ways of Forgetting: Israel and the Obliterated Memory of the Palestinian Nakba". Journal of Historical Sociology. 22 (3): 366–395. doi:10.1111/j.1467-6443.2009.01354.x. ISSN 0952-1909.
• *Sayigh, Rosemary (2013-11-01). "On the Exclusion of the Palestinian Nakba from the "Trauma Genre"". Journal of Palestine Studies. 43 (1): 51–60. doi:10.1525/jps.2013.43.1.51. ISSN 0377-919X.
  • *Sayigh, Rosemary (2022). "On the Burial of the Palestinian Nakba". Routledge International Handbook of Ignorance Studies (2 ed.). Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003100607-31/burial-palestinian-nakba-1-rosemary-sayigh. ISBN 978-1-003-10060-7.
• *Rekhess, Elie (2014). "The Arab Minority in Israel: Reconsidering the "1948 Paradigm"". Israel Studies. 19 (2): 187–217. doi:10.2979/israelstudies.19.2.187. ISSN 1527-201x. {{cite journal}}: Check |issn= value (help)
• *Sela, Avraham; Kadish, Alon (2016). "Israeli and Palestinian Memories and Historical Narratives of the 1948 War—An Overview". Israel Studies. 21 (1): 1. doi:10.2979/israelstudies.21.1.1.
• *Rouhana, Nadim; Sabbagh-Khoury, Areej (2017). "Memory and the Return of History in a Settler-Colonial Context: The Case of the Palestinians in Israel". In Rouhana, Nadim N.; Huneidi, Sahar S. (eds.). Israel and its Palestinian Citizens: Ethnic Privileges in the Jewish State. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-04483-8.
• Shenhav, Yehouda (2019). "The Palestinian Nakba and the Arab-Jewish Melancholy". In Shai Ginsburg; Martin Land; Jonathan Boyarin (eds.). Jews and the Ends of Theory. Fordham University Press. pp. 78–. ISBN 978-0-8232-8201-2.
• Gutman, Yifat; Tirosh, Noam (2021-01-29). "Balancing Atrocities and Forced Forgetting: Memory Laws as a Means of Social Control in Israel". Law & Social Inquiry. 46 (3): 705–730. doi:10.1017/lsi.2020.35. ISSN 0897-6546.
• Abu‐Laban, Yasmeen; Bakan, Abigail B. (2022-07-12). "Anti‐Palestinian Racism and Racial Gaslighting". The Political Quarterly. 93 (3): 508–516. doi:10.1111/1467-923X.13166. ISSN 0032-3179.

Discussion (core sources)

Additions/subtractions? Levivich (talk) 03:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi Levivich, happy to add here - could you explain the objective? There are many more relevant books in the article bibliography, and in google books. Not to mention the various sources in Arabic (e.g. Ma'na an-Nakba). Onceinawhile (talk) 17:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The objective is to identify the major books about Nakba -- the "best" sources. I had missed two books already in the article, which I just added to this list, but I think at this point all the books in the article are on this list. Did I miss any others? In addition to those, there are, listed above, books that should be cited in the article, but aren't. Are there any others? The article relies too much on not-the-best sources: newspaper articles, kind-of-obscure journal papers, etc., which can and ought to be replaced with better sources, like the major books by major scholars in the field. No doubt there are foreign-language books about Nakba as well, but I've only looked at English books. Levivich (talk) 18:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

In that case, your list - prioritizing Pappe and Morris - is incorrectly weighted. They are absolutely core to the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight, which is the story of what the Israelis did to the Palestinians. But the Nakba is a wider topic, about the overall Palestinian collective trauma.

I can bring more sources, but we should iron this difference out first.

Onceinawhile (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I didn't really intend this list to be weighted, except that the "classics" have like 10x or 100x the citations of other books on the list, so I separated them, and then I looked for any more-recent books by the same authors about Palestine, so we can see what if anything they changed or added in their writing about Nakba since they wrote their "classics." The classics, like all classics, are widely-cited, but relatively old. That's why I think it's important to look at newer sources and not just the classics.

I don't necessarily think classics should be given more weight than newer sources. In instances where newer sources say something different than the classics, we need to pay attention to that. We need to determine if the mainstream scholarly views have changed, or if new significant minority views have emerged, or what. One example: did Nakba start and end in 1948, or did it begin before 48, and/or continue after 48? My sense that scholarship has moved on those questions since Pappe 2006 and Masalha 2012, and I'd be keen on looking at how more recent sources describe the timeline of Nakba (and also what Pappe and Masalha have said in more recent writings on the topic, including papers and not just books).

I'm not entirely sure how to handle Morris. My gut instinct is that Morris represents a significant minority view on Nakba (or maybe more specifically, the causes of the Nakba). I see that other scholars discuss Morris's views, particularly in relation to Pappe's, and both Morris and Pappe discuss each other's views, and the Wikipedia article mentions them already. I was going to see how the most recent scholarship handled Morris. It may be one of those cases where Morris is talked about in the article more than used as a source for the article (and maybe same with Pappe).

For now, though, I'm just looking to collect the most in-depth, widely-cited, reputable works about Nakba... i.e., books by scholars reviewed in some academic journal, the more citations the better. That could obviously be expanded to book chapters and journal articles, but I think books is a good place to start because they will have the most depth. Levivich (talk) 21:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I added some papers that had decent cite counts, reorganized the list by topic, and clarified inclusion criteria. Levivich (talk) 16:08, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Outline

Outline

Full source citations at #Core sources History of Nakba Ottoman period and pre-Ottoman (pre-1917) Sources: Forman 2004, Pappe 2006 ch 2, Masalha 2012 ch 1, Wolfe 2012, Manna 2013, Masalha 2018, Pappe 2022 chs 1-2 Ottoman Empire Arab nationalism, Palestinian nationalism settler colonialism Zionism, Political Zionism, Labor Zionism, First Zionist Congress Yishuv, Old Yishuv kibbutz Jewish National Fund World War I McMahon–Hussein Correspondence, Sykes–Picot Agreement Balfour Declaration absentee landlord Western support of Zionism Early nonviolent Palestinian protests of Zionism Ottoman support, and restraint, of Zionism Zionist land acquisition using local laws Causes of the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight § "Concept of transfer in Zionism" Mandate period (1917-1947) Sources: Forman 2004, Pappe 2006 ch 2, Shlaim 2009 ch 1, Masalha 2012 ch 1, Wolfe 2012, Manna 2013, Masalha 2018, Khailidi 2020 ch 1, Pappe 2022 ch 3, Sabbagh-Khoury 2023 ch 3 Mandatory Palestine, Mandate for Palestine Jewish Agency Haganah Mapai, Hashomer Hatzair, Mapam Supreme Muslim Council 1929 Palestine riots, Shaw Commission, Hope Simpson Enquiry, Passfield white paper, MacDonald Letter 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, Peel Commission World War II, The Holocaust United Nations Special Committee on Palestine British/Western support, and restraint, of Zionism Zionist land acquisition using local laws 1948 Nakba (1947-1949) Sources: Schulz 2003 ch 2, Pappe 2006 chs 3-8, Shlaim 2009 chs 2-4, Masalha 2012 ch 1, Wolfe 2012, Manna 2013, Masalha 2018, Khalidi 2020 ch 2, Slater 2020 ch 5, Manna 2022 ch 2, Pappe 2022 ch 4, Sabbagh-Khoury 2023 ch 4 1948 Palestine War, 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, 1948 Arab–Israeli War, 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight Plan Dalet Al-Khisas, Balad al-Shaykh massacre, Deir Yassin massacre, Safsaf massacre, Tantura massacre, Al-Dawayima massacre, 1948 Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle Haifa, Jaffa, Safad, Tiberias, Acre, West Jerusalem ~300-400k expelled/fled Nov 47 - May 48 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine Israeli Declaration of Independence Arab League, Arab Higher Committee Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war Operation Hiram List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war West Bank, Gaza Strip Transfer Committee, Resolution 194, Palestinian right of return United Nations Relief and Works Agency United Nations Conciliation Commission Expelling "infiltrators" Lausanne Conference of 1949 Western support for Israel ~400k expelled/fled after May ~750k ttl expelled/fled Looting Sexual violence Destruction of holy sites biological warfare (Cast Thy Bread) psychological warfare Partition period (1949-1967) General sources: Forman 2004, Pappe 2006 ch 9, 12, Manna 2013, Masalha 2018, Manna 2022 chs. 3-7 Sources: Pappe 2022 ch 5, general sources 1949–1956 Palestinian expulsions Palestinian refugees Internally displaced person Palestinian diaspora Palestinian Bedouin Druze in Mandatory Palestine Present absentee Absentees' Property Laws Office of the Israeli Custodian of Absentee Property Israeli land and property laws, Law of Return, Israeli citizenship law Israel Land Administration Israel Central Bureau of Statistics Jordanian annexation of the West Bank Muslim Brotherhood Fatah Palestinian fedayeen Arab Nationalist Movement Arab Cold War Arab Communists, USSR, National Liberation League in Palestine, Palestine Communist Party, Maki (historical political party) United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees Geneva Conventions Qibya massacre Kafr Qasim massacre Qalqilya Suez Crisis Palestine Liberation Organization, Palestine National Council Hebraization of Palestinian place names Imprisonment Ghettoising Forestation Naksa period (1967-87) Sources: Schulz 2003 ch. 2, Baumgarten 2005, Khailidi 2020 chs 3-4, Pappe 2022 ch 6, general sources Six-Day War Naksa Resolution 242 Israeli occupation of the West Bank East Jerusalem Golan Heights Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine Battle of Karameh Mafdal Palestinian National Covenant Cairo Agreement (1969) Black September Yom Kippur War Likud Resolution 338 Lebanese Civil War Siege of Tel al-Zaatar Land Day Camp David Accords 1982 Lebanon War Sabra and Shatila massacre Intifada period (1987-present) Sources: Baumgarten 2005, Pappe 2022 chs 7-10, general sources First Intifada Hamas Oslo Accords Palestinian enclaves Palestinian National Authority, Palestinian Legislative Council Nakba Day Second Intifada Israeli West Bank barrier Battle of Jenin (2002) Israeli disengagement from Gaza Blockade of the Gaza Strip Fatah–Hamas conflict Nakba Law Naksa Day Features of Nakba Displacement Basically same sources as "1948 Nakba (1947-1949)" Loss of land Sources: Forman 2004, Masalha 2012 ch 3, Wolfe 2012, Sabbagh-Khoury 2023 chs 1-2 Statelessness Sources: Schulz 2003 ch. 4 Right of return Sources: Schulz 2003 chs. 5-6 Loss of records Sources: Masalha 2012 ch. 4 Loss of labor Sources: Wolfe 2012 Terminology / historiography Sources: Baumgarten 2005, Litvak 2009 ch. 1, Shlaim 2009 chs 27, 29, Masalha 2012 ch. 5, Manna 2013, Manna 2022 ch. 1 Cultural impact of Nakba Sources: Listed at #Nakba in culture Memory / denial Sources: Pappe 2006 chs 10-11, Litvak 2009 chs 2-end, Masalha 2012 chs 2, 6-7, Sabbagh-Khoury 2023 chs 5-6, and those listed at #Nakba denial / Nakba memory Genocide studies Sources: Listed at #Nakba and genocide studies

Discussion (outline)

A work in progress, but thoughts? Levivich (talk) 22:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Like nableezy - 23:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The current structure is nothing to particularly write home about, so yeah, like. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Hired. ) Selfstudier (talk) 12:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Levivich (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm adding to the outline links to other articles, and sub-topics (where I'm not aware of an article to link), that I think are WP:DUE per the sources listed in each outline section. Please speak up if you think anything should be added or removed. Also, as the outline will be changing, just note that folks' approval/disapproval at any given point in time may no longer apply to a later, changed version of the outline. Levivich (talk) 01:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this outline is missing coverage of notable opposing narratives, namely the Israeli national narrative which is currently covered in the section 'Opposition to the notion of Nakba'. Marokwitz (talk) 10:46, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I expect that'll be covered in historiography and memory section; I haven't gotten to expanding those parts of the outline yet (and probably won't for a while, still on the history section right now). Levivich (talk) 22:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added article links to the history section in the outline above. If anyone thinks there are other articles that should be linked in the history section of the Nakba article, or that we shouldn't be linking to something that is listed in the outline, please let me know. Levivich (talk) 20:53, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I've added a very small bare-bones start to the History section of the article, and struck through the links on the outline that are now in the article. My plan is to expand the history section until all the links in the outline are in the article, then move on to the other sections. I may move some links to other parts of the outline and reorganize the outline a bit as I go. Levivich (talk) 05:59, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة: in transliteration: al-Nakba - in literal translation: "the disaster" or "the catastrophe") is the Arab-Palestinian term for the departure, escape or expulsion of about 750 thousand Palestinian Arabs during the War of Independence (1947-1949) and their becoming refugees. Kitcat972 (talk) 07:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Left guide (talk) 07:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Citations in first sentence

Looking at this article after commenting at AE and seeing this RfC i am confused about the usage of citations in the first sentence. I know it is common practice to add references to multiple works for a contentions label, but doing so can make it unclear to the reader as to what exactly the citations are meant to support. Some kind of explanatory footnote would be useful.
I thin the most common and neutral definition of nakba is along the line of the events of 1948 which lead to the displacement of Palestinians. What i am searching for is a citation which supports the particular definition given by the article. fiveby(zero) 15:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps a better way to think about this is that strictly speaking, citations are not actually required in the lead, which is supposed to be a summary of what is in the body. So is the explanation that you are looking for in the body? (btw, I would hesitate to say that the Nakba is susceptible to a "definition" as such. Nor would I regard it as as a "label" either). Selfstudier (talk) 15:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, except the 'label' i was referring to was 'ethnic cleansing', not 'nakba' . I don't find the explanation explicitly within the body, but of course in Pappe's preface:

In other words, I want to make the case for the paradigm of ethnic cleansing and use it to replace the paradigm of war as the basis for scholarly research of, and the public debate about, 1948...To some, this approach—adopting the paradigm of ethnic cleansing as the a priori basis for the narrative of 1948—may from the outset look as an indictment. In many ways it is indeed my own J’Accuse against the politicians who devised, and the generals who perpetrated, the ethnic cleansing... am not aware that anyone has ever tried this approach before. The two official historical narratives that compete over the story of what happened in Palestine in 1948 both ignore the concept of ethnic cleansing. While the Zionist/Israeli version claims that the local population left ‘voluntarily’, the Palestinians talk about the ‘catastrophe’, the Nakba, that befell them, which in some ways is also an elusive term as it refers more to the disaster itself rather than to who or what caused it. The term Nakba was adopted, for understandable reasons, as an attempt to counter the moral weight of the Jewish Holocaust (Shoa), but in leaving out the actor, it may in a sense have contributed to the continuing denial by the world of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 and after.

As a reader, if i see the claim that Nakba "is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians" and a citation to The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine i can understand the basis and why you are saying that. I might not find the statement neutral, but understand. In the body i find the described as ethnic cleansing by many scholars... and Other scholars, such as...disagree not very helpful, Penslar in Nakba#cite_note-122 marginally helpful. I would also hesitate to say that Nakba is susceptible to a definition, but authors do give definitions and "is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians" is the one that has been chosen here.fiveby(zero) 17:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

If the described as ethnic cleansing by many scholars... line in the body that lists like 30 scholars with a footnote quotation from each of them is not very helpful, and the Penslar quote ("Derek Penslar recently stated that pro-Israelis needed to catch up with the past 30 years of academic scholarship that has accepted the ‘vast bulk of findings’ by the New Historians regarding the Nakba. He said: '... It was ethnic cleansing'") is marginally helpful, what would be very helpful?

Just to drill down on this a little:

The body sentence says The Nakba is described as ethnic cleansing by many scholars,[122] ... and that ref 122 includes the Penslar quote, plus a cite to Lentin that says "non-Zionist scholars" (that's the vast majority of scholars) describe it as ethnic cleansing, one from Milshtein saying "the majority of Palestinian writers" describe it that way, one from Ram saying the same about Israeli historians, and several other cites besides. Does this not adequately support the sentence "The Nakba is described as ethnic cleansing by many scholars"?

It continues, ... including Palestinian scholars such as Saleh Abd al-Jawad,[123] ..., and the quote in ref 123 is Israeli historiography has adopted a denial of the Nakba, a negation of the breadth of ethnic cleansing perpetrated in Palestine. Does this not adequately support that Saleh Abd al-Jawad describes the Nakba as an ethnic cleansing?

Went through these like this one by one in the archived discussion Daniel linked below. Levivich (talk) 17:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

what exactly the citations are meant to support They're meant to support the sentence being cited? What i am searching for is a citation which supports the particular definition given by the article. That would be citations #1 and #2? I'm clearly confused by your question. Levivich (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, the first, "Anti-Palestinian Racism and Racial Gaslighting" The Nakba—Arabic for catastrophe—is the term used to capture the events of 1948 which led to over 80 per cent of the Palestinian population being violently forced to flee, and becoming stateless refugees in and outside historic Palestine. Need we go through them? fiveby(zero) 17:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

That's the first citation in ref #2, Abu-Laban & Bakan 2022, pp. 511-512:

[p. 511] The Nakba—Arabic for catastrophe—is the term used to capture the events of 1948 which led to over 80 per cent of the Palestinian population being violently forced to flee, and becoming stateless refugees in and outside historic Palestine. The Nakba is also a marker in what Abu-Luhod and Sa’di call ‘Palestinian time’. This is because in Palestinian collective memory ‘after 1948’ marks a dramatic disintegration of a society and a way of life ... [p. 512] For Palestinians, occupation, land usurpation, displacement and being forced to live as refugees have continued from 1948 until present times. The Nakba has in effect been an ongoing continuity of trauma."

Cited to source this in the lead:

... violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.

Hopefully the highlighting helps clarify which parts of the source support which parts of the sentence. You'll find more quotes at Talk:Nakba/Archive 3#Nakba definition. The line has been discussed/tweaked since then; the last time I recall is Talk:Nakba/Archive 5#wording in lede. Levivich (talk) 18:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I see, but hardly necessary i would think and confusing placement for the reader. Wouldn't common practice in writing and WP guidelines encourage you to place these citations within the "Components" section?

The citation i asked for tho was the one which gives license to prefer:

...is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians...

over the more common as above

...term used to capture the events of 1948...

fiveby(zero) 19:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The citation (ref #2) is in the #Components section. Common practice is not to have cites in the lead, but because this lead is repeatedly questioned, this lead has cites. See Self's comment below about that, the hope to one day remove them. The citation for "ethnic cleansing" is Ref #1 (which is the same set of citations in the "described as ethnic cleansing by many scholars" line in the body). I don't think any citation gives "license to prefer." That would be Wikipedia policies and guidelines, most of all WP:NPOV, but also MOS:FIRST. "Ethnic cleansing" is the most succinct way to introduce and summarize "Nakba," at least in my opinion. Levivich (talk) 19:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

See also this archived discussion from a few weeks ago, where I argue that only a few of these references clearly support the content. The bulk of them are loosely related, but either give a broader definition of the Nakba or don't define it at all. Several don't even mention the Nakba.

WP:V isn't a numbers game; these reference bombs with loosely-related materials just make it more difficult for both readers and editors to determine whether the content is actually well-supported. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 16:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I guess one could just read the article? How many people actually read the refs? Is there something wrong with a broader "definition"? (I would say "description" personally). If there is a reference that is not contributing to the description, then remove it with an explanation.(btw, V is a numbers game, that is exactly how we determine things like commonname and what the balance of sources say). Selfstudier (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The point is that those who do examine the references (whether readers or editors) would be better served by a few of the most relevant sources, rather than a long list of loosely related ones. Those who ignore references won't be affected either way.

WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims require "multiple" sources, but beyond that WP:V doesn't encourage large quantities, and 25 is clearly excessive. I can try to prune some of the less relevant ones, but it would be best if editors also stop adding to the WP:REFCLUTTER. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 18:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

In principle, I agree, this kind of overcite usually comes about when the material is contested, as is happening here, again. Once that sort of thing dies down, a normal article development would no longer require that many citations in the lead, in fact none would be preferable, with the necessary simply in the article body. Selfstudier (talk) 18:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

+1. Levivich (talk) 18:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Not only do they all mention the Nakba, but they're all drawn from works that are directly about the Nakba, and they all directly support what they're citing. None are "loosely related." I debunked your claims with quotes, for every source one by one, in the discussion you linked. For example, I mirthfully remember the one where you said that the foreword to Nakba and Survival, which said "they resisted the wave of ethnic cleansing that transformed Palestine in 1948 and that persists to this day," you disputed that this was a reference to the Nakba. Levivich (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The question was not whether the Nakba involved ethnic cleansing, but whether it's defined as ethnic cleansing, as in The Nakba is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians .... Such excerpts that don't even use the word Nakba, let alone define it, don't support such a definition, at least not to the standard WP:V requires (support the material clearly and directly). — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Your objection is to the word "is"? We could write "includes" instead". Or are you disputing the use of the term altogether? Selfstudier (talk) 19:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't have an objection to the lead saying the Nakba "involves" the ethnic cleansing rather than "is" the ethnic cleansing, but I don't think any of the sources define Nakba, I think they describe it. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; leads are not definitions, and the lead sentence does not necessarily define the topic. MOS:FIRST: The first sentence should introduce the topic, and tell the nonspecialist reader what or who the subject is, and often when or where ... If its subject is definable, then the first sentence should give a concise definition ... I don't think this subject is definable, and I think the lead sentence introduces the subject and says what, where, and when it is. Do you have a suggestion for a different lead sentence? Levivich (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I think a broad definition along the lines of what fiveby mentioned, or along the lines of The Nakba refers to the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians ..., could be a good first sentence. I'd suggest mentioning ethnic cleansing in the second sentence. — xDanielx ^T/_C\^R 19:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:REFERS advises against doing that. This isn't an article about the word "Nakba," it's an article about the Nakba. For example, an alternative title for this article might be "Ethnic cleansing of Palestine." It's not an article about a word used to describe this (ongoing) event, it's an article about the event itself. Levivich (talk) 19:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

We might say a way of introducing the topic to readers or outlining the scope rather than 'definition'. I'd think the most common ways of doing this are along the lines of:

• events of 1948 which led to the displacement...
• displacement of Palestinians during 1948...
• Palestinian narrative of...

and we could look at sources to determine if that is correct if needed. There will be many tertiary sources involved, and i think as Selfstudier has alluded these can lack nuance and not fully capture the scope of the article. But their task is the same as the WP article and the introduction here should be modeled on the way they commonly do things and not create some novel construction.

I think 'narrative', while appropriate in certain contexts, is dismissive of some of the scholarship concerned. The first two problems with incorporating Ongoing Nakba, which for some reason is a separate article. fiveby(zero) 15:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Why do you think those are the most common ways of doing this? None of those seem common to me at all, and I showed my work at Talk:Nakba/Archive 3#Nakba definition. The sources listed there don't support "narrative" or "displacement" or "events of 1948". More to the point: do you dispute that mainstream academic consensus is that the Nakba is an ethnic cleansing? If so, based on what--which sources says it wasn't an ethnic cleansing? If not, then why remove it from the first sentence, is it not the most succinct way to introduce the topic? Wouldn't removing "ethnic cleansing" from the intro be "burying the lead"? Levivich (talk) 16:14, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

al-Nakba noun the Palestinian term for the events of 1948, when many Palestinians were displaced by the creation of the new state of Israel

— Oxford Dictionary of English

among others. Which of course we would never cite, but offered above that we could go through these, including the one you quoted above:

The Nakba—Arabic for catastrophe—is the term used to capture the events of 1948 which led to...

Of course not [to removal of ethnic cleansing], but it is in the same manner as the events of the Bosnian war were ethnic cleansing, a verdict or classification, not defining what the topic is. I have never said to remove ethnic cleansing, but my complaint about the "many scholars say...some disagree" language in the body is that it does not explain much which the reader should know: why it has been classified as such; i think that would call for expansion within the article. Frankly i am surprised at your arguments, and to continue then the question i asked is still outstanding, the refrain on WP is "follow the sources", per BURDEN what is your source? fiveby(zero) 16:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

The answer to "why has it been classified as ethnic cleansing" seems a little obvious? Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous (to use Wikipedia's description of it). The Nakba is classified as an "ethnic cleansing" because it is the systematic forced removal of Palestinians from Israel with the intent of making Israel an ethnically homogenous (specifically: Jewish) society. As this article says, the goal of Zionist settlement of Palestine was to obtain as much land, with as many Jews, and as few Arabs, as possible. When the Yishuv used systematic force to accomplish that goal, they engaged in ethnic cleansing. That said, certainly the body could be expanded to explain in more detail why scholars consider it an ethnic cleansing, and the historiography section could certainly be expanded to explain in more detail how scholars came to this consensus.

As for what is my source: what is my source for what? (I assume you're not asking me what is the source for "ethnic cleansing" or what is the source for the lead sentence, since both are cited in the article?) Levivich (talk) 17:31, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

As i would have thought would be very clear by now a source which defines nakba in the same way you do: The Nakba is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Nakba A term meaning ‘catastrophe’, used to denote the expulsion of up to 700,000 Palestinians before, during, and after the Arab–Israeli War of 1948. The period of the Nakba refers to events that took place between December 1947 and January 1949 and is subject to fierce controversy and contestation in Israeli and Arab narratives. Numerous reasons account for the exodus of large elements of the Palestinian population of what became the State of Israel in May 1948, including military defeat, paramilitary activities, Israeli expulsion orders, and Arab evacuation orders.

— Oxford Dictionary of Politics in the Middle East

as an example. Tertiary sources not necessary but helpful, i think everyone is on the same page as to their limitations and problems with the above should be obvious. But not a list of sources which merely discuss ethnic cleansing in relation to nakba. I think if you are going to go against the grain of all these sources, published authors in respectable works, it is incumbent on you to provide sources which clearly support[s] the material as presented in the article. You don't get to claim, as you are seemingly doing here that those which state "events of 1948" or similar are just plain wrong and you know better. fiveby(zero) 20:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

(You keep using that word "define" despite our previous discussion about how that is not what we are doing here.) I don't know how much clearer you want than, e.g., Penslar, "It was an ethnic cleansing." There are like 30 sources in the article that describe the Nakba as ethnic cleansing. Levivich (talk) 02:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The very archive talkpage section you authored and point to above is "Nakba definition", and in that section your conclusion is the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, and the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations with nothing about 'ethnic cleansing'. I've quoted two dictionaries above and would think that when one wishes to know the definition of a term a first step might be to look in a dictionary. MOS:FIRST says:

if its subject is definable, then the first sentence should give a concise definition: where possible, one that puts the article in context for the nonspecialist. Similarly, if the title is a specialized term, provide the context as early as possible.

Those show at least that it is possible, and the very article text: The Nakba is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians would seem to indicate that you are comfortable with a definition, just not the one given in the majority of sources. Now i've fully acknowledged a hesitation about definitions, lack of nuance and not capturing the full scope, the limitations of tertiary sources, etc., but that does not give license to fully depart from how most sources describe the topic.

Penslar is quoted through Rashed, Short, and Docker; and that source is taking issue with Penslar in that he mistakenly interprets the concept of genocide, which is the argument of their paper, probably best illustrated with the quote: Did Zionist Israel perpetrate in the Nakba of 1948 genocide against Palestinian society? Is it still perpetrating genocide, incrementally but relentlessly, on the Palestinian people? Penslar is "Israel studies professor: 1948 really was ethnic cleansing, not genocide" an article in The Jewish Chronicle, remarks filtered through a journalist. Did Zionist Israel perpetrate in the Nakba of 1948 genocide or ethnic cleansing. That something was perpetrated in the nakba does not mean that is what the nakba is. fiveby(zero) 03:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand what your argument is, but I'll leave at this: "is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations" is the best summary of the sources in refs 1 and 2, and the best introduction to the topic, that I've read so far. For the various reasons I've explained above, I think it's better than "is the events of 1948," "is the displacement," "is a narrative...", "is a term for ...", or "refers to...". Levivich (talk) 03:57, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Excessive quotations in citations

WP:FOOTQUOTE notes the purpose of a reference quotation is to "[allow] readers to immediately identify the applicable portion of the reference"; it also highlights that "caution should be exercised, as always, to avoid copyright violations". I don't believe this guidelien has been sufficiently followed in this article. Take the following, which was the first sentence-reference correlation I looked at:

"Expulsions, massacres, and Israeli expansion continued in the autumn of 1948,"

There is somewhere in the region of 700 words of quotations here. Reminder: citations are meant to verify the text, and quotations are meant to allow readers to immediately identify the applicable portion of the citation. Here, the quotations should allow immediate identification of the sources stating some part of: that expulsions continued in autumn 1948, that massacres continued in autumn 1948, and that Israeli expansion continued in autumn 1948.

I have read the provided quotation from Manna 2022 thrice, and have yet to find where it states that the massacres, pillagings, and rapes detailed occurred in any part of 1948 (and what is the relevance of the p. 60 quote at all?). The same can be said for Hasian Jr. 2020 and Slater 2020. Morris 2008's quotation does not even verify that Israeli expansion occurred in 1948—it only says "the IDF offensive". Cohen 2017 and Pappe 2006 are the only quoted sources whose copyrights have not been unnecessarily violated—and quoting the latter's final sentence is completely unnecessary.

I see that many citations contain upwards of 1200 words of quotations; I count at least two with more than 2000. (For reference, the current word count of the article itself is short of 5,000.) If one comparatively-short citation contains so much unnecessary plagiarism from copyrighted sources, I shudder to think of what the longer ones do. Please take better care when quoting the sources.

~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

OK, let's go through this source by source. All bolding is my emphasis.

I have read the provided quotation from Manna 2022 thrice, and have yet to find where it states that the massacres, pillagings, and rapes detailed occurred in any part of 1948

The citation is: Manna 2022, pp. 60-92... Manna 2022 is available for free, linked in the Bibliography of the article. That book is titled Nakba and Survival: The Story of Palestinians Who Remained in Haifa and the Galilee, 1948–1956, which is how we know it's about 1948. The citation is to pp. 60-92, which are 32 pages of the book. Those 32 pages are Chapter 2 of the book. The chapter title is: "Completing the Occupation of Gililee--Operation Hiram". Operation Hiram occurred 29-31 October 1948. The entire chapter, all 32 pages, are about events in the autumn of 1948.

And what are those events in the autumn of 1948? massacres, pillagings, and rapes. The quotes from Manna are:

• From page 75: In the villages of upper Galilee closer to the Lebanese border, however, the war crimes and expulsions were more severe and cruel. The Israeli army carried out killings (including massacres), pillaged, and raped in a number of border villages, including Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Hula, and Sa‘sa‘, on the day the villages were occupied or shortly thereafter. The killings and expulsions were carried out in villages that had put up no resistance to the occupiers. The inhabitants of some villages (Saliha, for example) even resisted the presence of the ARA in their village, but this did not save them when the soldiers of the Israeli army entered their village.
• Page 301 n. 83 is a footnote from Chapter 2.
  • Footnote 83 is at the end of this sentence on Page 77: The fact that the army perpetrated fifteen massacres during a single week after occupying the Galilee speaks to the presence of a formal policy.⁸³.
  • The footnote lists the 15 massacres that occurred in October 1948: The Israeli army carried out massacres in ‘Ilabun, against al-Mawasi Arabs, in Kufr ‘Inan, Farradiyya, Majd al-Krum, al-Bi‘na, Dayr al-Asad, Nahaf, Tarshiha, Safsaf, Jish, Sa‘sa‘, Hula, and Saliha. In the massacres of upper Galilee alone hundreds of defenseless civilians and prisoners were executed by the soldiers.
• Page 308 n. 96 is a footnote from Chapter 3.
  • Footnote 96 is at the end of this sentence on page 121: Even after news of the massacres and the expulsion of the residents of villages in upper Galilee leaked out at the end of the year, the major figures in Maki did not express criticism of these actions.⁹⁶
  • The footnote again lists the massacres: The murder and expulsion of defenseless civilians involved the residents of the villages of ‘Ilabun, al-Mawasi Arabs, Kufr ‘Inan, Majd al-Krum, al-Bi‘na, Dayr al-Asad, Nahf, Sha‘b, Mirun, Jish, al-Safsaf, Sa‘sa‘, Tarshiha, Salha, Hula, and others.

(and what is the relevance of the p. 60 quote at all?)

The quote from page 60 is about the population of the Galilee, which is the population that was ethnically cleansed in autumn 1948 during operations like Operation Hiram.

The same can be said for Hasian Jr. 2020

Hasian Jr. 2020, p. 93: In that 1988 Tikkun essay Benny Morris once argued that “Jewish atrocities” were “far more widespread than the old historians” had indicated, and he went on to mention the massacres of Arabs at places like Al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Safsaf, Hule, Saliha, Sasa, and Lydda. Eilaboun, Jish, Safsaf, Hule, and Saliha, are massacres that happened in October 1948.

and Slater 2020.

Slater 2020, p. 90: On October 15, Rabin continued, after Egypt fired a few shots at the convoy, “we had our pretext” and Israel implemented its plan, succeeding not only in expelling the Egyptian forces from the Negev but also seizing a large section of the western Negev region that had previously been allocated to the Arab state. I don't understand how you can possibly not understand that this is talking about Israeli expansion in October 1948.

Morris 2008's quotation does not even verify that Israeli expansion occurred in 1948—it only says "the IDF offensive".

Morris 2008, p. 313: ... the IDF offensive against the Egyptian expeditionary force that began on 15 October and the offensive against the ALA in the Galilee two weeks later. The IDF offensive that began on 15 October was Operation Yoav. The one that began two weeks later was Operation Hiram.

If one comparatively-short citation contains so much unnecessary plagiarism from copyrighted sources, I shudder to think of what the longer ones do. Please take better care when quoting the sources.

Please take better care not to needlessly throw around words like "plagiarism" and "copyrighted." Quotations from sources are neither plagiarism nor copyvio.

Reminder: citations are meant to verify the text, and quotations are meant to allow readers to immediately identify the applicable portion of the citation.

It'd be nice to have shorter quotes, yet your post makes me think the thing to do is to expand the quotations rather than shorten them, since the quotations were apparently not clear enough to convey that they were about events in October 1948. Levivich (talk) 01:11, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Would it be an improvement if I added wikilinks to the quotes, so readers could know what the various words were referring to? Levivich (talk) 01:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

No, that seems unhelpful. Let's address what seems to be the biggest problem first. You argue that "quotations from sources are neither plagiarism nor copyvio". With that in mind, can you please explain the meaning of "However, caution should be exercised, as always, to avoid copyright violations." at WP:FOOTQUOTE? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC) EDIT: could you also ping me when you reply? I don't have this page on my watchlist.

References